As the Civil War dragged on, President Lincoln had to "remessage it" as a war to save the Union, more  than as a liberation of the slaves. That message was accepted. By the end of the war, the plight of the ex-slaves was ignored.  Southern law established "black codes", where black Americans were found guilty of trumped up charges and  forced to labor for years for a plantation owner to "work off their fines". They were virtually enslaved.

 

And people wonder where the Black Panthers got their motivation.

As the Civil War dragged on, President Lincoln had to "remessage it" as a war to save the Union, more  than as a liberation of the slaves. That message was accepted. By the end of the war, the plight of the ex-slaves was ignored.  Southern law established "black codes", where black Americans were found guilty of trumped up charges and  forced to labor for years for a plantation owner to "work off their fines". They were virtually enslaved.

 

And people wonder where the Black Panthers got their motivation.

 

Mmmhmm. I read about all this stuff and I'm in awe of how people can keep their shit together. Groups like the Black Panthers seem much more rational from that perspective.

Here's Hamilton County's Sundown Towns in 1970 (first census after the Fair Housing Act) and 2020

1 hour ago, thomasbw said:

Here's Hamilton County's Sundown Towns in 1970 (first census after the Fair Housing Act) and 2020

 

 

It's striking that Mariemont actually has fewer Black residents today.

43 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

It's striking that Mariemont actually has fewer Black residents today.

That jumped out to me as well. They went from 1.45% black to 0.77% black during a period where the balance of the county black percentage increased by about 300% 

I forgot that I started this thread...eight years ago. I reread it and appreciate all the micro-knowledge of the racial and homophobic dynamics of Ohio. Now-husband and I live in the Old West End of Toledo now, where gay men and the closeted married men who &$%@# them are a majority, and we freely hold hands and queer out whenever we feel like it. The racial dynamics, though, of this neighborhood are typical of Ohio. You'd be led to think "It's diverse! It's welcoming!" until you start talking to Black residents. 

 

The census numbers will be interesting, because I think they will show some longer term effects of the 2008 Housing crisis on migration patterns, as mentioned above. 

The census page at Census.gov doesn't have demographic data for the 2020 census yet, but if you as Alexa "how many African Americans live in Cheviot, Ohio?" she has the information. I cross checked the Cincinnati data (which had been reported in the media) with what she said and it lined up 

On 9/22/2021 at 1:56 PM, thomasbw said:

Here's Hamilton County's Sundown Towns in 1970 (first census after the Fair Housing Act) and 2020

I had a friend whose father owned a bar in St. Bernard and would always comment how good the schools are there because of the all the P&G money (this was many decades ago). It's surprising the population has dropped to much. There must be other factors involved. 

3 hours ago, eastvillagedon said:

I had a friend whose father owned a bar in St. Bernard and would always comment how good the schools are there because of the all the P&G money (this was many decades ago). It's surprising the population has dropped to much. There must be other factors involved. 

 

Across Mitchell Avenue from St. Bernard you have North Avondale, which has always been the Black neighborhood. If you look at the demographic map there's a stark divide. Originally, the folks in St. Bernard didn't want to be a part of Cincinnati because they wanted to keep their own (very white) school district. Nowadays, Cincinnati is the cool place to be and St. Bernard isn't doing so hot. I know several young folks who were looking to buy homes and immediately eliminated it since it wasn't a part of the city, even though it's surrounded by Cincinnati. However, I think the growth that Cincinnati is seeing will spill over into St. Bernard soon. They did some nice streetscaping in their business district and they are working on redeveloping a tired old strip mall into a mixed-use development.

^ St. Bernard is a blue collar, working class neighborhood. I know a pretty big handful of tradesman who live/work out of St. Bernard, both black and white. That makes a place incredibly uncool for most "hip" young couples, who for some reason have no problem with open air drug markets on their stoop, but wouldn't dare live next to an HVAC tech or a guy who owns his own lawncare business.

On 9/23/2021 at 8:24 AM, thomasbw said:

The census page at Census.gov doesn't have demographic data for the 2020 census yet, but if you as Alexa "how many African Americans live in Cheviot, Ohio?" she has the information. I cross checked the Cincinnati data (which had been reported in the media) with what she said and it lined up 

 

I believe you can find the racial demographic numbers in the DEC Redistricting Data (PL 94-171) HERE (Select the census block/block group/tract to see the data)

35 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

who for some reason have no problem with open air drug markets on their stoop

Are you serious right now?

39 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

^ St. Bernard is a blue collar, working class neighborhood. I know a pretty big handful of tradesman who live/work out of St. Bernard, both black and white. That makes a place incredibly uncool for most "hip" young couples, who for some reason have no problem with open air drug markets on their stoop, but wouldn't dare live next to an HVAC tech or a guy who owns his own lawncare business.

This is nonsense.  Lakewood is a hipster paradise and my next door neighbor is a HVAC guy and another neighbor works on the floor at the Steel Mill.  

vermilion has a history as a sundown town. supposedly it has a sign facing the lorain side at one point, but afaik there is no evidence. there is this though:

 

https://fox8.com/news/controversy-over-vermilion-sirens-seen-as-symbol-of-racism/

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Ram23 said:

^ St. Bernard is a blue collar, working class neighborhood. I know a pretty big handful of tradesman who live/work out of St. Bernard, both black and white. That makes a place incredibly uncool for most "hip" young couples, who for some reason have no problem with open air drug markets on their stoop, but wouldn't dare live next to an HVAC tech or a guy who owns his own lawncare business.

 

that is mush more an ses issue than a 'hip' issue. at least in nyc where the wealthy love the poors, so they can pity them, but they hate anyone who works with their hands and is middle class. that includes the young, hip trust fund move in's too, some of whom who pick and choose to fetishize some some of this from a studied distance (ie., maker culture flea markets).  it's maddening at times and its the thing that bugs me the most around here.

19 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Across Mitchell Avenue from St. Bernard you have North Avondale, which has always been the Black neighborhood. If you look at the demographic map there's a stark divide. Originally, the folks in St. Bernard didn't want to be a part of Cincinnati because they wanted to keep their own (very white) school district. Nowadays, Cincinnati is the cool place to be and St. Bernard isn't doing so hot. I know several young folks who were looking to buy homes and immediately eliminated it since it wasn't a part of the city, even though it's surrounded by Cincinnati. However, I think the growth that Cincinnati is seeing will spill over into St. Bernard soon. They did some nice streetscaping in their business district and they are working on redeveloping a tired old strip mall into a mixed-use development.

 

I don't know St. Bernard at all, but just to test for a familiar pattern: Does it have a more restrictive zoning code (whether for exclusionary purposes or otherwise doesn't even matter for this question) than its proximity to the city would warrant?  You mentioned the redevelopment of a tired old strip mall into a mixed-use development--is that the first modern mixed-use development in the city?

 

Like I said, I don't know St. Bernard from St. Peter.  But I've seen a lot of older communities in which the lack of new development was a policy choice, whether it was because they thought they could regulate their way to prosperity (through scarcity) or the quite frankly didn't care about growth at all ("preserving the small-town feel" or some such, though in practice that tends to age into "preserving the ghost-town feel").

I guess I should have figured that St. Bernard wasn't the most diverse town in the world, but again that was ages ago when I was in college when I visited. It looks decent though, based on the street view. If I remember correctly, the bar (on Vine St.), which is no longer there, was in the building with the red door, now and art/design studio--so I guess St. Bernard is getting a bit hipsterfied. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/AYDesign+-+Art+On+Vine®/@39.1674388,-84.4981671,3a,75y,141.42h,98.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHn0cp2G6rvLESxaV-abFzw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x8841b3144d24c523:0xa51ed6ae3ecc73!2s4750+Vine+St,+St+Bernard,+OH+45217!3b1!8m2!3d39.1674932!4d-84.4977112!3m4!1s0x8841b3144e6d443f:0xf4af0a19e97f2ca1!8m2!3d39.1673448!4d-84.4980491

5 hours ago, Ram23 said:

^ St. Bernard is a blue collar, working class neighborhood. I know a pretty big handful of tradesman who live/work out of St. Bernard, both black and white. That makes a place incredibly uncool for most "hip" young couples, who for some reason have no problem with open air drug markets on their stoop, but wouldn't dare live next to an HVAC tech or a guy who owns his own lawncare business.

 

This is incredibly stupid. I live in Northside, one of the places to be for "hip" young couples, and coincidentally I live on the same block as someone who owns their own lawncare business, a general contractor, and a janitor. They are all wonderful neighbors and we have amazing block parties. Stop buying into stereotypes.

2 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

I don't know St. Bernard at all, but just to test for a familiar pattern: Does it have a more restrictive zoning code (whether for exclusionary purposes or otherwise doesn't even matter for this question) than its proximity to the city would warrant?  You mentioned the redevelopment of a tired old strip mall into a mixed-use development--is that the first modern mixed-use development in the city?

 

Like I said, I don't know St. Bernard from St. Peter.  But I've seen a lot of older communities in which the lack of new development was a policy choice, whether it was because they thought they could regulate their way to prosperity (through scarcity) or the quite frankly didn't care about growth at all ("preserving the small-town feel" or some such, though in practice that tends to age into "preserving the ghost-town feel").

 

It does have a restrictive zoning code, one that is rooted in racism. There are some books I found at the main branch of the library downtown that talk about it. They didn't want the small multifamily buildings you find next door in North Avondale because those were viewed as housing for Black people. The redevelopment of the strip mall is the first modern mixed-use development that I know of, so there seems to be a change in mindset. It has been becoming more diverse in the last ten years or so anyway.

1 hour ago, eastvillagedon said:

I guess I should have figured that St. Bernard wasn't the most diverse town in the world, but again that was ages ago when I was in college when I visited. It looks decent though, based on the street view. If I remember correctly, the bar (on Vine St.), which is no longer there, was in the building with the red door, now and art/design studio--so I guess St. Bernard is getting a bit hipsterfied. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/AYDesign+-+Art+On+Vine®/@39.1674388,-84.4981671,3a,75y,141.42h,98.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHn0cp2G6rvLESxaV-abFzw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x8841b3144d24c523:0xa51ed6ae3ecc73!2s4750+Vine+St,+St+Bernard,+OH+45217!3b1!8m2!3d39.1674932!4d-84.4977112!3m4!1s0x8841b3144e6d443f:0xf4af0a19e97f2ca1!8m2!3d39.1673448!4d-84.4980491

 

The streetscape improvements and road diet have helped a lot in making their downtown look fresh. That happened in the last five years. There is also a brewery there now. It's still rare to see anyone actually walking around though. With the new development hopefully that changes. I would like to see the town prosper into a diverse, vibrant community. 

9 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

The streetscape improvements and road diet have helped a lot in making their downtown look fresh. That happened in the last five years. There is also a brewery there now. It's still rare to see anyone actually walking around though. With the new development hopefully that changes. I would like to see the town prosper into a diverse, vibrant community. 

I guess I'm a little unclear about St. Bernard's physical boundaries. I always thought it was like an inner-ring "suburb" bordering Cincinnati to the north, but from the conversation here it sounds like an island that's surrounded on all sides by Cincinnati, like Hamtramck is surrounded by Detroit. 

^Independent Elmwood Place messes that up to the north.

Edited September 24, 20213 yr by GCrites80s

for the most part, St. Bernard is completely surrounded by Cincinnati outside of a tiny stretch that's bordering Elmwood Place. Together Elmwood Place and St. Bernard are completely surrounded by the city.

 

St. Bernard is a relatively small area. Half of the area is industrial uses. Probably about 1/3 of the remaining area is devoted to various cemeteries. The rest of St. Bernard is almost entirely built out dense single family development. I would guess the majority of population decline is the result of an aging population and smaller family sizes.

 

It's a bit of a quiet town, which is why young "hip" people aren't particularly drawn to the area like they are to Northside, Walnut Hills, Madisonville, and College Hill.

3 hours ago, eastvillagedon said:

I guess I'm a little unclear about St. Bernard's physical boundaries. I always thought it was like an inner-ring "suburb" bordering Cincinnati to the north, but from the conversation here it sounds like an island that's surrounded on all sides by Cincinnati, like Hamtramck is surrounded by Detroit. 

 

Yep. Along with Elmwood Place, it is surrounded by Cincinnati. On this map the red line is the Cincinnati boundary.

2 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

red line

 

Heh, well played.