*On a related note as we anxiously await for the new rendering and subsequent demolition of the hideous garage, I was just thinking of the following:

 

First, I wonder how many storefronts in the 4th Street Historic District are either underutilized or completely vacant?  Not only storefronts, but general buildings as well. 

 

Next, I think the impact this project has on the Fourth Street District, and also the 309 Vine Street project, adding a bunch of residents in a small area will really benefit 4th Street as a whole.  I am certain the land values will increase, they will be more rehabilitation projects on 4th Street, and it is going to really bring to life the most beautiful part of downtown compared to where it is at currently. 

 

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Not only 309 vine and 4th & Race, but 4th & Walnut ( http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2016/01/15/a-100m-bet-on-downtown-texas-firm-picks-cincinnati.html )  project that was just announced as well.

 

These will potentially add ~500 apartments and two hotels within a few blocks on 4th. Some great opportunities lie in the lots on the west end of 4th as well as along 3rd.

 

 

^^well, yeah, it's going to help. I think the CBD struggles with pedestrian activity especially at night compared to OTR. Fountain Square and the Aronoff are the two strong nodes. The restaurants in 84.51 are starting to draw people over to Race St., but I think the "dead zone" created by the Terrace Plaza Hotel is a major threat. It'd also be nice if they built out a condo tower above Macy's. 4th street could easily be an activity center if these other projects in the neighborhood come together one by one. The Renaissance Hotel with D. Burnham's restaurant seems to create activity.

I live on 4th street and the potential for this to become a major high end retail destination is great. However, so much is empty at the moment. The historic area has so many beautiful buildings there is no reason they should not be full of awesome things. I  look at Bang and Olufsen and see that as hope for the future. The Gidding Jenny building was going to have a movie theater but AMC shot that down (which is awful). I heard a rumor about tearing down the building to the left (TJ Maxx) and putting in a Target. I really hope no additional historic buildings are lost. I don't think a target and a dominoes pizza is what 4th street needs. Bring in an Apple Store and the rest will come. I sent an email to Tim Cook (he apparently reads his emails from the general population) but obviously never heard back.

I think one of these to form the retail base of the garage would be quite nice:

 

I live on 4th street and the potential for this to become a major high end retail destination is great. However, so much is empty at the moment. The historic area has so many beautiful buildings there is no reason they should not be full of awesome things. I  look at Bang and Olufsen and see that as hope for the future. The Gidding Jenny building was going to have a movie theater but AMC shot that down (which is awful). I heard a rumor about tearing down the building to the left (TJ Maxx) and putting in a Target. I really hope no additional historic buildings are lost. I don't think a target and a dominoes pizza is what 4th street needs. Bring in an Apple Store and the rest will come. I sent an email to Tim Cook (he apparently reads his emails from the general population) but obviously never heard back.

 

for god's sake aim for a best buy at least so people can get superior technology to apple for half the price from samsung and google.  I swear if the city jumps on the apple bandwagon which is essentially worse than the walmart/starbucks bandwagons I will denounce downtown, move to anderson township and start calling the streetcar a boondoggle and refuse to hang out in otr for fear of being shot.  :-P

.

From the recently released Economic Development Report (http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/fyi/public/fyi_docs/Blob/3578.pdf?rpp=-10&m=1&w=doc_no%3D%273047%27)

 

The Fourth & Race redevelopment project tackles the badly blighted Pogue’s Garage in the heart of the City’s financial district. Estimated to begin construction in early 2016, it constitutes a true mixed-use development, incorporating a replacement garage, an apartment tower and new street-level retail. 3CDC will construct and operate the eight-level, 925-space garage and add 25,000 square feet of street-level retail at a cost of $32.1 million. Flaherty and Collins will build an eight-story, 208- unit apartment building above the new garage at an estimated cost of $45.1 million. The total investment in the project will be approximately $77.2 million.

From the recently released Economic Development Report (http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/fyi/public/fyi_docs/Blob/3578.pdf?rpp=-10&m=1&w=doc_no%3D%273047%27)

 

The Fourth & Race redevelopment project tackles the badly blighted Pogue’s Garage in the heart of the City’s financial district. Estimated to begin construction in early 2016, it constitutes a true mixed-use development, incorporating a replacement garage, an apartment tower and new street-level retail. 3CDC will construct and operate the eight-level, 925-space garage and add 25,000 square feet of street-level retail at a cost of $32.1 million. Flaherty and Collins will build an eight-story, 208- unit apartment building above the new garage at an estimated cost of $45.1 million. The total investment in the project will be approximately $77.2 million.

 

Holy moly that's a lot of parking.

 

Could some of that be used to support a condo tower above Macy's at Fountain Place, since you couldn't include any in a project there?

I wonder how long it would take to drive into the new garage, drive up 8 levels, park, and then ride the elevator back down. Seems fairly exhausting to me.

How many spaces is the current Pogues garage that is being torn down?

 

I guess the new garage would need to be big enough to hold most of what is being lost and then you add the residential units and 25,000 sp ft of commercial space. Then any additional spots if it is used as supplemental parking for the redevelopment of buildings along 4th street.

That garage is usually pretty desolate anyway in my experience.

That is a ton of parking, but I think broadly speaking, it will serve a nice area for redevelopment of other 4th Street structures. 

I wish they would hurry up and tear the thing down already. I heard from someone who is directly involved with this project at City Hall say back in December "oh that's going down in February"....that didn't happen. Anyone else hear anything else about possible demolition start dates?

Hopefully after this project developers won't need to rely so much on parking garages especially with the streetcar opening soon

From the recently released Economic Development Report (http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/fyi/public/fyi_docs/Blob/3578.pdf?rpp=-10&m=1&w=doc_no%3D%273047%27)

 

The Fourth & Race redevelopment project tackles the badly blighted Pogue’s Garage in the heart of the City’s financial district. Estimated to begin construction in early 2016, it constitutes a true mixed-use development, incorporating a replacement garage, an apartment tower and new street-level retail. 3CDC will construct and operate the eight-level, 925-space garage and add 25,000 square feet of street-level retail at a cost of $32.1 million. Flaherty and Collins will build an eight-story, 208- unit apartment building above the new garage at an estimated cost of $45.1 million. The total investment in the project will be approximately $77.2 million.

 

Here's another version of that same PDF that is slightly cleaner since it wasn't scanned: http://choosecincy.com/Cincinnati/media/Cincinnati/Com%20Dev%20PDFs/Annual-Report-2015_FINAL-compressed.pdf

Interesting that the city is touting a private to public investment ratio of 4:1. If you're a follower of Strong Towns, you might remember them writing a piece about this exact issue, and recommending a ratio of 20:1 as the *low* end.

 

http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2015/12/16/best-of-2015-density-question

3CDC will hold a information session this Tuesday 04-12-16. The session will include project overview, demolition of garage schedule, and project timeline

 

Date 04-12-16

Time- 12:30pm

Location- Bromwell's Harth Lounge 125 W. 4th Street

 

Hopefully we will see a rendering :clap: :clap:

apparently my company is bidding on the building. I'm not involved in that process, though. So I don't know any specifics, but we got drawings a little bit ago.

Drawings you can check out and describe? (Obviously don't break any company policies which most likely make your answer a big old "NOPE")

^Correct. Also, we just had ethics training on Friday, so I probably shouldn't be breaking any company ethics.

I hate when I know insider information about development happening around Cincy and can't say anything because of industry ethics. I learned about the 8th and Main towers like a month or so before they were publicly announced and couldn't say anything even though I wanted to blab about it all over here and Facebook.

Woooo, I've been waiting on this for forever.  Glad to hear it is moving forward! If I was Flaherty and Collins I would be frustrated with the process, but the urban real estate business I am sure is much different than the Ag commodity business where most things move fairly quickly, unless you are working with a huge company!

Honestly rents have gone up in the core since this was first announced so in the end they'll likely make more money off this than before anyway.

Does anyone know who I can follow on Twitter for updates today on this?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

3CDC will hold a information session this Tuesday 04-12-16. The session will include project overview, demolition of garage schedule, and project timeline

 

Date 04-12-16

Time- 12:30pm

Location- Bromwell's Harth Lounge 125 W. 4th Street

 

Hopefully we will see a rendering :clap: :clap:

 

No rendering

Demo will start sometime in May. The demo will take 6 to 7 months

Turner would like to start construction in November

Flaherty & Collins wasn't at the event, so it was just 3CDC, Turner, and the City presenting... mostly addressing concerns of nearby residents/businesses about the demolition process. The design process for both the garage and apartments is still underway and will continue through the demolition, so I wouldn't expect to see updated design renders for a few months.

 

3CDC gave this overview of the project scope:

• 25,000-30,000 sq ft of commercial on the first floor.
   
  
• 6-7 floors of parking. The parking garage will have ~700 spaces, 500 of which will be open to the public with hourly/daily/monthly rates.
   
  
• 200 apartments, varying in rooms and sizes.
  

 

The Turner construction manager said that the total project will take 28-30 months from the beginning of demolition and the total schedule is "depending on the structural system that is selected during the design process". So they're still figuring out major design decisions. And they don't expect residents to be able to move in until the end of 2018.

Did we ever settle in how tall this structure will be?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally 30ish stories, then shrunken to 8 stories of parking and 9 stories of apartments. Now it's sounding like 6 or 7 stories of parking but still the same amount of apartments. So 15 or 16 stories.

So that's about the same number as The Reserve across the street for a height comparison.

I think it's 6-7 levels of parking on top of the 1st level of retail... so, the 3CDC portion of the project will be 7-8 stories in total with the residential on top of that. But I'm not sure how tall the parking levels will be and if they'll be designed (similar to 84.51) to be able to be converted to non-parking uses in the future. I suspect not, since nobody has mentioned that. In which case, it's possible that the floor-ceiling heights of the parking levels will be shorter than the residential levels. 

They likely will be smaller. I'd imagine this building, at 16 or so stories (you're right about the ground level retail, I forgot to count that) won't be as tall as, say, the Greiwe buildings which are 14 and 15 stories. It will likely be 10-20 feet taller than Seven at Broadway and about twice the footprint.

I hate when I know insider information about development happening around Cincy and can't say anything because of industry ethics. I learned about the 8th and Main towers like a month or so before they were publicly announced and couldn't say anything even though I wanted to blab about it all over here and Facebook.

 

Just use a pseudonym like some of the elected officials that post on this message board :)

Haha, or spread info "anonymously" to someone who CAN post it all over here and facebook.

I hate when I know insider information about development happening around Cincy and can't say anything because of industry ethics. I learned about the 8th and Main towers like a month or so before they were publicly announced and couldn't say anything even though I wanted to blab about it all over here and Facebook.

 

Just use a pseudonym like some of the elected officials that post on this message board :)

 

There's waaaay too much intellectual and objective discussion of development/transpo policy on here for just about any Cincinnati elected official to be involved. ;P

Getting rid of Downtown garage that 'looks terrible'

Bowdeya Tweh, [email protected] 8:51 p.m. EDT May 5, 2016

 

The parking garage at the northwest corner of Fourth and Race streets turns 50 next year.

 

But Downtown residents and business owners will only celebrate if the hulking 10-story concrete structure doesn't see its golden anniversary.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2016/05/05/4th-race-garage-demolition/82982480/

Fourth and Race project back on track after being sidelined for 3 years

Jun 3, 2016, 6:00am EDT

Chris Wetterich

Staff reporter and columnist

Cincinnati Business Courier

 

Paywall article...

 

A three-year-old plan to build a new apartment complex and garage in a key corner of downtown Cincinnati is back on track after years of delays, political saber-rattling, review and revision.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2016/06/03/fourth-and-race-project-back-on-track-after-being.html

Color! Nice.

I feel somewhat neutral on this at the moment until I see more views. I do like the color combo used, bu the building stepping back along the 4th Street streetwall is questionable to me. Having that life fronting 4th would have been nice. But I do get why they did it since this allows the amenity spaces to get light.

 

I do like that it does fully front the corners of Vine and Race. That was the biggest thing in my list of desires. It will help anchor the building.

 

Overall it appears it will be a good addition, but I want to see more angles of it from street level first.

Here's the un-cropped version of that rendering:

 

Oooh, definitely excited for "prominent retailer" to move into the neighborhood.

It's a shame that a large block like this cant be a taller development, but I will take this mixed use design any day of the week over the faux new-urbanist crap forced down our throats at Banks Phase I.

 

I really like that it gets taller on both the Race St end and the Elm St end.

Yes, it could be a lot taller, but I actually think the scale of this is pretty nice. And we know how conservative Cincinnati developers are. Once this 225-apartment project succeeds, other developers will realize that they can also build a 225-apartment building somewhere downtown...or maybe even 250. They are not going to suddenly get the confidence to build a 400-apartment tower without these smaller projects succeeding first.

Yes, it could be a lot taller, but I actually think the scale of this is pretty nice. And we know how conservative Cincinnati developers are. Once this 225-apartment project succeeds, other developers will realize that they can also build a 225-apartment building somewhere downtown...or maybe even 250. They are not going to suddenly get the confidence to build a 400-apartment tower without these smaller projects succeeding first.

 

Hopefully that success of a new construction building of this scale is evident much sooner once 8th / Sycamore opens. 7th / Broadway leased up quickly as new construction but that is slightly different as it was built on an existing garage.

I really like that it gets taller on both the Race St end and the Elm St end.

 

It actually doesn't if you look closely. The apartment portion just sits at the back of the site in between the ends. You can see a sliver of it if you look closely. The building is the same height all the way across the site but the garage podium doesn't align with the apartment portion above which creates a setback for the amenity deck.

Overall - this is going to be great for the CBD. To have first floor retail on that block is going to be such a major improvement over the current garage. Those apartments are going to be very popular I suspect. I'll be curious what 3CDC's retail strategy is here. For the 84.51 building they have filled the retail space with (very good) food establishments. I hope they can make Fourth St into a bit more of a diverse retail scene, with some food options, but not exclusively food.

 

From a design perspective, my main concern will be how they treat the openings on the garage levels. Because floors 2-8 are just parking, they will have a huge impact on the building's presence. For comparison, the 84.51 building only has above-ground parking on floors 2-4... so this building has twice as much garage space above ground. I don't like how there seems to be a staggering of glass and screen openings on the south facade (levels 4-8). It just looks purposeless.

Whoever it was on this board who didn't like the recent offset asymetrical window trend is going to lose it.

 

I really like that it gets taller on both the Race St end and the Elm St end.

 

It actually doesn't if you look closely. The apartment portion just sits at the back of the site in between the ends. You can see a sliver of it if you look closely. The building is the same height all the way across the site but the garage podium doesn't align with the apartment portion above which creates a setback for the amenity deck.

 

Color me corrected. In appearance though it looks taller on the corners, which is what I like.

Very true. I like that it helps anchor those corners.