Anyone else feel there is a "follow the money trail" conspiracy to why the grocery store component requirement was removed?  If nothing else Cranley cares about his political future, and heeding the call of those with deep pockets and long-standing political clout in Cincinnati is a wise move on his part.

 

All politics are corrupt, but the developer is free to lease space to a grocery operator at this development if they want to.

Anyone else feel there is a "follow the money trail" conspiracy to why the grocery store component requirement was removed?  If nothing else Cranley cares about his political future, and heeding the call of those with deep pockets and long-standing political clout in Cincinnati is a wise move on his part.

 

Yea, it does seem a little bit like this whole thing was orchestrated to keep a grocery store OUT of this development. Kroger does seem to be interested, at least somewhat, in a downtown Cincinnati grocery store. Could this whole debacle be on Kroger's behalf?

 

http://www.wcpo.com/money/local-business-news/kroger-co-kr-harris-teeter-acquisition-could-lead-to-new-downtown-cincinnati-store

 

No, the developer is the party that would want the grocery store requirement lifted. (not the city or Kroger).

Anyone else feel there is a "follow the money trail" conspiracy to why the grocery store component requirement was removed?  If nothing else Cranley cares about his political future, and heeding the call of those with deep pockets and long-standing political clout in Cincinnati is a wise move on his part.

 

Yea, it does seem a little bit like this whole thing was orchestrated to keep a grocery store OUT of this development. Kroger does seem to be interested, at least somewhat, in a downtown Cincinnati grocery store. Could this whole debacle be on Kroger's behalf?

 

http://www.wcpo.com/money/local-business-news/kroger-co-kr-harris-teeter-acquisition-could-lead-to-new-downtown-cincinnati-store

 

No, the developer is the party that would want the grocery store requirement lifted. (not the city or Kroger).

 

While I don't doubt that the developer would prefer the low margin grocery store requirement be lifted, I think that the fact that the deal was reworked to remove that requirement raises an eyebrow or two.

The grocery store would have been good for residents of downtown, not ideal for the developer, and bad for any other grocers who aren't quite ready to risk opening up downtown. I think the question of who Cranley is supposed to be representing is a good one to ask in this case.

 

I think the location was actually ideal. The southwest corner of downtown has lots of residential, and this is about as close to Fountain Square/the center of downtown as a grocer could probably afford to locate and break even. There's already a Kroger in OTR so building another grocery store somewhere between downtown and OTR wouldn't make much sense.

I still think they should build a big urban format two-story grocery as part of a residential mid-rise at Walnut and Central Parkway.

 

I can dream.

The grocery store would have been good for residents of downtown, not ideal for the developer, and bad for any other grocers who aren't quite ready to risk opening up downtown. I think the question of who Cranley is supposed to be representing is a good one to ask in this case.

 

I think the location was actually ideal. The southwest corner of downtown has lots of residential, and this is about as close to Fountain Square/the center of downtown as a grocer could probably afford to locate and break even. There's already a Kroger in OTR so building another grocery store somewhere between downtown and OTR wouldn't make much sense.

 

It depends on what you want out of the grocery.  If you want something very small for downtown residents only, then I would say this is an ideal location.  If you want something that's going to attract both downtown and OTR residents, then I don't think this is close to ideal.  As someone who lives at 13th and Vine, I can tell you my chances of going to this location for a grocery--even if it is a very nice grocery--are slim to none.  It's quite a haul for anyone in OTR; and it's exacerbated by not being on the streetcar line, which would make it easier when it comes to lugging groceries back as a pedestrian.  I think that as redevelopment continues, we will end up with more residents in OTR than in Downtown.  It may be the case that we end up with a larger store right near Central Parkway, as Civvik suggests. 

^It seems like having multiple smaller grocery stores would be more conducive to city living than one big one serving the whole basin.  The one proposed at 4th and Race should really be viewed as "for downtown", not OTR.  OTR has Kroger (for good or bad) to fill that void.  A huge grocery store implies using a car to haul 2 weeks worth of groceries anyway, and the Newport Kroger already exists for that.

^True.  If that is what we end up with, I will be fine with it.  But you can see why there has been such difficulty getting a grocery store in place--if the focus is on a small store primarily for downtown residents, then you have to deal with very high real estate costs for not a lot of people.  Add in that it is a very low margin business anyway, and it's no wonder it has taken this long. 

The grocery store would have been good for residents of downtown, not ideal for the developer, and bad for any other grocers who aren't quite ready to risk opening up downtown. I think the question of who Cranley is supposed to be representing is a good one to ask in this case.

 

I think the location was actually ideal. The southwest corner of downtown has lots of residential, and this is about as close to Fountain Square/the center of downtown as a grocer could probably afford to locate and break even. There's already a Kroger in OTR so building another grocery store somewhere between downtown and OTR wouldn't make much sense.

 

It depends on what you want out of the grocery.  If you want something very small for downtown residents only, then I would say this is an ideal location.  If you want something that's going to attract both downtown and OTR residents, then I don't think this is close to ideal.  As someone who lives at 13th and Vine, I can tell you my chances of going to this location for a grocery--even if it is a very nice grocery--are slim to none.  It's quite a haul for anyone in OTR; and it's exacerbated by not being on the streetcar line, which would make it easier when it comes to lugging groceries back as a pedestrian.  I think that as redevelopment continues, we will end up with more residents in OTR than in Downtown.  It may be the case that we end up with a larger store right near Central Parkway, as Civvik suggests. 

 

You, sir, need a bicycle (perhaps with a basket and panniers) and a large messenger bag! ;-)

 

Also, the grocery is (was) to have a large parking garage.

I have a bike, but not quite like that.

 

Driving to the grocery sort of defeats the purpose of it...I walk all the time to Findlay Market and Vine Street Kroger.  If I am going to drive, I will just suck it up and go to the mega-store types and do a big run (Newport Kroger, Costco/Sam's). 

Bike + a large messenger bag or backpack is perfect for a grocery trip from anywhere in OTR to 4th & Race.

The problem with that is that many people, like myself, don't want to buy a bike, mostly because I have literally nowhere to put it. I live in a 493 square foot studio and every square inch is important and there's nowhere near enough space to hold a bike. That being said I live like 400 feet from the OTR Kroger which is significantly better than I remembered it being several years ago. I'll still make my big runs to other stores since they don't carry a few of my desired product alternatives, but for the vast majority of stuff I just go over there every couple days.

Do your own thing, but if I lived where you do I would consider the idea of "I don't have space for a bike" similar to "I don't have space for a bed," aside from the fact that a bed takes up a lot more room than a bike making the bike easier to accommodate. You can hook it on a wall mount, get a folding bike and put it under your desk or in a closet, or just keep it simple and set it next to the wall somewhere.

 

I was just pointing out that it's not complicated to live in OTR and grocery shop at 4th & Race if you consider all transportation modes.

Oh, I definitely agree with you that it's not difficult. But what I meant was that if you saw what I'm working with you'd understand why a bike wouldn't really fit nicely anywhere where it could actually be away. And I know I'm not alone in not wanting a bike out in what's essentially just a big room. Having grocery stores within walking distance makes the most sense for the most people in an urban environment. Which will probably mean a series of smaller stores serving much smaller radii which I think is actually a good thing.

This brings to mind something of a cultural difference between shopping in certain regions as opposed to a true urban area.  Many people are accustomed to pulling into a Kroger with a car and, after shopping, pushing your loaded cart out to the car and putting your stuff in a trunk or whatever and driving off. It's the "big shop" mentality, whether you do it frequently or infrequently for "just the big stuff," it is somewhat expected.

 

In a true urban area, you aren't going to drive to the store. You will have a wire pull cart for the groceries, and you will drag it on the bus or train or whatever. The jury is still out, however, if a store opened at 4th and Race, whether people would still see the absolute necessity to drive there and drive back.  Obviously those that live in the nearby blocks would not.  Once you start moving out further, however, it gets murky.

In a true urban area, you aren't going to drive to the store. You will have a wire pull cart for the groceries, and you will drag it on the bus or train or whatever.

 

This is still the "big shop" mentality. You can just shop more frequently and carry what's comfortable.

^ It's just a matter of scale and distance.  Even if you shop every day only for what you need that day, it's still a burden to carry a sack of kitty litter so you want to have a cart of some sort.  Just two or three glass bottles, or even a half-gallon of milk can cause those shopping bags to really dig into your fingers. 

 

Yes, if you only want to shop once every two weeks then you're going to need a car and a big freezer, neither of which are particularly urban-friendly.  However there's plenty of other situations to fill the gap between that and shopping at the little mom-and-pop store half a block walk away every single evening. 

 

When I lived in Lincoln Park in Chicago there was a locally-owned supermarket right next door to my apartment.  It was probably about the size of the OTR Kroger.  With that and a post office and bank branch all in the building, it was the height of convenience.  I probably went there 3 times a week in general.  I did try the Dominick's that was right next to the 'L' station I used to get to work, but carrying just two or three bags the 3/4 of a mile or whatever it was turned out to be a real bitch.  I'd sometime load up on things at the store next door too, since I didn't have far to go, but you really can't carry much stuff without help, especially if you're shopping for more than one person or you have guests coming over. 

I still think they should build a big urban format two-story grocery as part of a residential mid-rise at Walnut and Central Parkway.

 

I can dream.

 

This would make SOOOO much sense for Kroger to do.  It would be in the shadow of their HQ.  They could design and build from scratch and make it as big as they want and include all their amenities like Kroger Bistro.  Their own employees could shop and eat there.  It would be a good location to serve both downtown and OTR and be on the streetcar line.  In terms of a residential mid-rise that empty lot has just about the most potential of any on the streetcar line. 

This brings to mind something of a cultural difference between shopping in certain regions as opposed to a true urban area.  Many people are accustomed to pulling into a Kroger with a car and, after shopping, pushing your loaded cart out to the car and putting your stuff in a trunk or whatever and driving off. It's the "big shop" mentality, whether you do it frequently or infrequently for "just the big stuff," it is somewhat expected.

 

In a true urban area, you aren't going to drive to the store. You will have a wire pull cart for the groceries, and you will drag it on the bus or train or whatever. The jury is still out, however, if a store opened at 4th and Race, whether people would still see the absolute necessity to drive there and drive back.  Obviously those that live in the nearby blocks would not.  Once you start moving out further, however, it gets murky.

 

I know what you mean by "true urban area," but cities don't have to follow an exact prototype. I think the basin could be as well served by a large grocery on the streetcar line as a few smaller ones not on the streetcar line. The most important thing is that it needs to be VISIBLE and reassure new residents that they actually live in a full-service neighborhood.

^^^ In my experience...living alone, as an able-bodied male, it's easy to get by with weekly trips to the store, a bike, and a single large bag over your shoulder. No need to live across the street from the store, no need for a personal shopping cart. Company coming over? Shopping for two+? Make an extra trip. I guess YMMV but I've never been super strong or anything.

Yeah if you're a guy complaining about the weight of one or two grocery bags a few blocks, well then you obviously have lived a pretty charmed life. 

 

When I had roommates in college, their moms would come over periodically and bury the kitchen in all sorts of processed food that never ended up getting eaten.  People have this mentality that they need to be stocked up for Y2K and the end result is that tons of food goes bad.  If you can't right now remember all of the food that you have at your house then most of the food you can't remember will go bad.   

^How do you always turn one little thing someone says into a rude assumption about a person's character or their "privilege?"

 

Literally millions of people in the world use shopping trolleys. It's a common site in places far more urban than almost everywhere in the USA. It has nothing to do with being "charmed" but rather a more convenient way to move goods around on foot.

This thread has taken a turn for the ridiculous.  Judging someone for using a grocery cart and saying that a bike is the solution to getting around with groceries is pretty ridiculous.  Imagine having to come to a sudden stop and having your groceries spill out or the bag falls off your shoulder.  What do you do when it's snowy and icy out? Maybe these are non-factors in your perfect, idealized urban life, but for the majority of people, biking with a bag of groceries on your shoulder is not appealing. 

 

Hell, you can order your groceries online these days.  Delivery straight to your door.  Not for me, but it's another option that will probably only increase in popularity.  As for me, I generally drive to the grocery store, but only get as many groceries as I can fit in one basket.  This limits my spending and ensures that I'll be able to pretty comfortably carry the groceries into the house from wherever I find parking on the street.  Not perfect urbanism, but it works for me.

Get Amazon Prime and have most delivered.

In Chicago grocery stores delivery your groceries to your front door for free.

Back in my day, we held our plastic sacks until they cut bloody grooves into the divots of our fingers.

This thread has taken a turn for the ridiculous.  Judging someone for using a grocery cart and saying that a bike is the solution to getting around with groceries is pretty ridiculous.  Imagine having to come to a sudden stop and having your groceries spill out or the bag falls off your shoulder.  What do you do when it's snowy and icy out? Maybe these are non-factors in your perfect, idealized urban life, but for the majority of people, biking with a bag of groceries on your shoulder is not appealing. 

 

Hell, you can order your groceries online these days.  Delivery straight to your door.  Not for me, but it's another option that will probably only increase in popularity.  As for me, I generally drive to the grocery store, but only get as many groceries as I can fit in one basket.  This limits my spending and ensures that I'll be able to pretty comfortably carry the groceries into the house from wherever I find parking on the street.  Not perfect urbanism, but it works for me.

 

So go to the Kroger on Vine when it is icy? Or plan your shopping around weather forecasts, since snow and ice isn't that common? Not like you should be driving in the ice either.

 

All I said as far as "judging" cart-users was that using a cart is the same "big shop mentality" as using a car. It is.

 

"Imagine having to come to a sudden stop and having your groceries spill out or the bag falls off your shoulder."

Imagine having an auto accident where your groceries fly at you from the backseat and the meat packaging is punctured and you end up getting trichinosis through your eyeball. The horror!

 

"for the majority of people, biking with a bag of groceries on your shoulder is not appealing."

It remains to be seen if the majority would find walking or riding transit to the store appealing enough to make a store in the CBD successful. Your claim is meaningless to the discussion. If we want to discuss how people will likely behave, they will probably ride their cars a few blocks from OTR to the damn store. Truth. They do it to get to Findlay Market from within their own neighborhood. So what I'm saying is we were never talking about "the majority" just what is reasonable to do, and grocery shopping on a bike absolutely is a reasonable thing to do.

^"These days"?

We used to get groceries & milk & eggs etc. delivered in the 60s...

I use a backpack on my bike but one should really use panniers located closer to axle height.

Putting a grocery in a tower, they could get delivery via helicopter.

Seriously?  In a world where hundreds of millions of people still farm with pre-industrial methods, burning thousands of calories per day, and hundreds of millions more work in mines or doing sweat shop drudgery, we have a group of grown men complaining about carrying groceries a few blocks?

 

 

 

 

Except nobody is complaining. It's stating that it's more convenient to use a trolley. That's it. Nobody complained. I've seen you complain about petty things all over these boards. Instead of insulting people try to understand what exactly it is that they're saying. If the grocery store at 4th and Race happens people like me, who live in OTR, might consider using a shopping trolley because it makes the trip more convenient. Convenience for a small price makes sense. Doesn't mean people are complaining.

Jake, maybe you should stop commenting on peoples' behaviors, backgrounds, or personal preferences. Also, stop posting off topic when a moderator officially tells everyone to get back on topic. It's frustrating and you know better.

 

Everyone else, don't feed trolls.

 

Back on topic or the thread gets locked.

Grocery is definitely out. Just to be clear, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger by about 50%.

 

I'm hearing about 225 units. 850 parking spaces. Hoping it gets finalized.

I guess we can stop discussing how to get to the grocery store, then.

Would the grocery store be replaced with street level retail? And wasn't the original plan that half the ground level would be a garage for the grocery store? Could that be transformed into more retail since that ground level parking isn't as necessary anymore.

 

225 units is still a pretty big number. On top of 850 spaces it's still going to be a pretty substantial building. I'd imagine it's going to still be in the 22-25 story range which will definitely break the skyline and fill that gap. Not quite as tall but still impressive.

Would the grocery store be replaced with street level retail? And wasn't the original plan that half the ground level would be a garage for the grocery store? Could that be transformed into more retail since that ground level parking isn't as necessary anymore.

 

225 units is still a pretty big number. On top of 850 spaces it's still going to be a pretty substantial building. I'd imagine it's going to still be in the 22-25 story range which will definitely break the skyline and fill that gap. Not quite as tall but still impressive.

 

You'll have some tall floors for the garages and retail levels at the base, but residential floors are fairly short, typically. They don't have to be, though, like the loft building on 4th and Central, for instance. The good thing is that unlike office towers, residential buildings can have very small floor plates, and in fact that is almost preferable so you can avoid wasting space on expansive corridors.

The renderings we've seen showed a building that was in the 350' range so if we use that as a starting point and remove a handful of floors to factor in the reduction in units (let's call this 5 or 6 floors of the 25 or so floors of units shown in the 30 story proposal) at 10' floor-to-floor and we end up with a 290'-300' or so tall building. I'd be pretty pleased with that height in this spot. Obviously that assumes the same number of units per floor and similarly proportioned floor plates which could have changed completely by now. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

So because City Council is on break for the summer and they did not modify the agreement.. is this pretty much shelved until the next Council Session?

 

Boweya Tweh (Enquirer CRE Reporter) tweeted that they still planned on breaking ground before years end.  And the Paragon situation still needs to be resolved.

correct me if i am wrong but isn't it true that demo on the garage would not start until the tower place mall garage opens?

 

Thank the lord!

 

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

 

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

 

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

Thank the lord!

 

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

 

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

 

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

 

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...

 

Thank the lord!

 

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

 

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

 

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

 

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...

 

 

I've been told that flaherty & Collins didn't want to build the grocery store, it was a requirement of Mallory/Dohoney.  It was going to add at least a million to their construction cost and the City mandated hours (7am to 10PM) would have given the operator a lot less flexibility than they would prefer. Also, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. OTR kroger is about 30K square feet.  This new grocery was going to be 18K square feet (but obviously targeted at a higher end clientele)  Losing that grocery, which <b>wasn't on the streetcar line anyway</b>, is fine by me.

Thank the lord!

 

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

 

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

 

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

 

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...

 

 

I've been told that flaherty & Collins didn't want to build the grocery store, it was a requirement of Mallory/Dohoney.  It was going to add at least a million to their construction cost and the City mandated hours (7am to 10PM) would have given the operator a lot less flexibility than they would prefer. Also, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. OTR kroger is about 30K square feet.  This new grocery was going to be 18K square feet (but obviously targeted at a higher end clientele)  Losing that grocery, which <b>wasn't on the streetcar line anyway</b>, is fine by me.

Smaller groceries work well of stocked right and run well in fact I kind of prefer them.  Good example: http://www.wgrocer.com/home.html

 

This is one of those things Cincinnati just doesn't get

Thank the lord!

 

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

 

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

 

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

 

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...

 

 

I've been told that flaherty & Collins didn't want to build the grocery store, it was a requirement of Mallory/Dohoney.  It was going to add at least a million to their construction cost and the City mandated hours (7am to 10PM) would have given the operator a lot less flexibility than they would prefer. Also, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. OTR kroger is about 30K square feet.  This new grocery was going to be 18K square feet (but obviously targeted at a higher end clientele)  Losing that grocery, which <b>wasn't on the streetcar line anyway</b>, is fine by me.

 

Blah blah blah square footage, timing, etc.

 

Or

 

Two Kroger executives are on 3CDC board.

Thank the lord!

 

Flaherty & Collins, 3CDC will work together on Fourth and Race apartment tower: EXCLUSIVE

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

What started out as an advisory role has turned into a partnership for the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. The nonprofit developer will now join Flaherty & Collins Properties in developing the stalled Fourth and Race apartment tower project.

 

Anastasia Mileham, vice president of communications for 3CDC, confirmed that its negotiating and consulting role to resolve the status of the project has evolved.

 

“We will definitely by working on the project with Flaherty & Collins,” Mileham said.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/08/15/flaherty-collins-3cdc-will-work-together-on-fourth.html

 

I'm happy to see this, but its pretty obvious this was a political move to keep the grocery from being built downtown...

 

 

I've been told that flaherty & Collins didn't want to build the grocery store, it was a requirement of Mallory/Dohoney.  It was going to add at least a million to their construction cost and the City mandated hours (7am to 10PM) would have given the operator a lot less flexibility than they would prefer. Also, it was going to be smaller than the OTR Kroger. Just want to make sure everyone understands that. OTR kroger is about 30K square feet.  This new grocery was going to be 18K square feet (but obviously targeted at a higher end clientele)  Losing that grocery, which <b>wasn't on the streetcar line anyway</b>, is fine by me.

 

Blah blah blah square footage, timing, etc.

 

Or

 

Two Kroger executives are on 3CDC board.

 

You're just spouting conspiracy theories.  Flaherty & Collins made it publicly known that the only way they were building the Grocery was if they got $4.5 million in New Market Tax Credits.  Their entire NMTC proposal was for the grocery store, stating that they needed the tax credit to bring a grocery store to a food desert.  Do your research. 

 

Next people will say, Kroger execs purposefully meddled in the NMTC process to prevent them from getting it... But if it were that easy to manipulate... Why did 3CDC get completely screwed and get $0. 

 

Again, if we want a successful not-car-focused urban grocery it should be straight up on the Streetcar line, thereby reducing the number of people who say, I'd have to walk 3 blocks to the streetcar, then 3 blocks from the streetcar to the grocery store, then 3 blocks back, then three blocks home, I'd rather just drive...  It's stupid, but people will do it.  Especially because I'm certain any grocery (and this was true of the planned 4th and race one) would offer free 1 hour parking with grocery validation.

I'm surprised no one has commented yet that 3CDC will be in charge of the parking garage. It's really starting to seem like 3CDC's primary business is parking.

I just don't see it as an issue. It's a way to have a constant revenue stream to help pay off loans. Seems like a good idea to me.

I just don't see it as an issue. It's a way to have a constant revenue stream to help pay off loans. Seems like a good idea to me.

 

It's not so much of an issue when parking is used to supplement residential and commercial development, but it is something to be worried about when the arrangement is flip-flopped.  With many of their developments having more parking than is required, it does call into question their motivations.  Flooding an urban neighborhood with parking spaces is not a benign action free from civic implications. 

They've stated their intentions in the past with the parking situation. The more structured the parking (which is always going to be necessary, at least for the foreseeable future regardless of our desires) the less money and desire there is for surface parking. Therefore more development to fill those lots. Plus it allows for larger projects to tap into the 'available parking' in the garages. I live in Westfalen, none of which have reserved parking. That's 33 units. The reasoning is that Washington Park Garage is a block away if you so desire. Is a big ass parking garage the best use of a site? No. But this isn't just a big ass garage surrounded by other development. This building, whether with two levels or five levels of parking, is going to take up the same area. So all it's doing is fulfilling its requirements and reducing demand elsewhere. I'm not seeing this as an issue.

^Exactly.  Building parking into new developments is the lesser of two evils.  If you add the parking while you can, there is less chance of some other structure being demolished for a lot/garage later.  Also, it makes nearby surface parking lots less desirable, which will hopefully lead to them being redeveloped.