Hey, don't hate on Disney World, they've got better mass transit than most American cities! Rail, monorail, ferry, boat, even dedicated bus lanes! They actually do urbanism reasonably well, once you're actually on the property.

Nay-sayers and NIMBYs. Typical.

It isn't an aerial tramway. It would be a gondola system should the pols decide they may be interested in this for Cleveland.

  I personally think it would be a boon.  It would be super cool to be able to park at say the west side market and take a gondola down to the flats. Then be able to take a gondola to the casino from there.  It could save a lot of car movement in downtown.

This isn't about NIMBYism.  This is stupid idea that should die already.

Hey, don't hate on Disney World, they've got better mass transit than most American cities! Rail, monorail, ferry, boat, even dedicated bus lanes! They actually do urbanism reasonably well, once you're actually on the property.

 

Right!

 

 

This isn't about NIMBYism.  This is stupid idea that should die already.

 

It's totally Nimbyism. You all remind me of all the streetcar nay-sayers back in '07 and '08 during the streetcar initiative. Go check out the pics in the Over The Rhine - before and after thread. If you want investment in this city you have to start by welcoming it.

 

Downtown Cleveland is a tourist destination. Every time I've gone to some event downtown, it costs $20-25 to park. There's obviously a demand for different modes of transporation.

^ a streetcar is true transit a gondola is a stupid amusement ride.  It will have to affect on the parking situation at all.  Any money city money spend on this travesty is better spent improving bus or rail service.

^ a streetcar is true transit a gondola is a stupid amusement ride.  It will have to affect on the parking situation at all.  Any money city money spend on this travesty is better spent improving bus or rail service.

 

Why? Other than aesthetics, what is the difference? I could argue that the gondola would be even more efficient since it would not have to affect traffic patterns?

 

Paraphrasing Paine: A  long habit of thinking of something as "wrong" gives your impression a superficial appearance of being "right". But the tumult soon subsides, time makes more converts than reason.

^ What can the gondola do that LRT can't do? besides move a lower number of people at a higher cost

We are the music-makers,

And we are the dreamers of dreams,

Wandering by lone sea-breakers

And sitting by desolate streams;

World losers and world forsakers,

On whom the pale moon gleams:

Yet we are the movers and shakers

Of the world for ever, it seems.

8-)

 

^I tend to feel the same way, but they can be fun. I would at most have one line like, say, from the Flats to Whiskey Is only because the island is isolated and not necessarily easy to find and navigate even with a car and the gondola cables and towers here could be built away from the more architecturally attractive downtown areas.  But this idea of sky train/gondola lines all over downtown gives it the illusion of regular mass transit -- which it is not, and it also is visually unattractive.  And in Cleveland, I can see local leaders really pumping this thing while continuing to watch RTA, especially the Rapid, fall apart.

And in a few years when this thing becomes like the people mover in Detroit we will have the ugly poles and cables all over Downtown.

There are only TWO commuter oriented/urban aerial tramways in the US that I know of.

 

The Portland Ariel Tram goes up a large hill, connecting the Oregon Health & Science University to a new, dense residential district.

Roosevelt Island Tramway was built to form the only connection between Roosevelt Island and Manhattan over the East River. (it was built 13 years before the F train stop was)

 

These where built because of geographical restraints, and accommodated areas that would create high ridership. The only geographical restraint that Cleveland has would be the the river/flats. The Red Line already bridges this though, and if any other transit project are built over the river, it should be under the Detroit-Superior bridge.

medellin metrocable - 3 lines - it can work!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrocable_(Medell%C3%ADn)

 

The gondolas can move 3-4000 people an hour.  They probably need to move 1000 people an hour to be efficient. It would certainly be great for big events downtown. It would likely improve the flats walkability in the winter and draw more people during a down period. 

  I don't see this affecting RTA's role. I see it as enhancing it.  It would be mainly be a tourist draw but i would think people that live downtown and in surrounding areas may find it useful to go car free.  Why be limited in where your location is? To link together most of the main social gathering spots, it would be good for the employees of these restaurants and customers. One could conceivably go from Coastal Taco and 8-10 minutes later, maybe faster, be sitting at townhall. Try doing that on a busy weekend in the flats with a car and then hope to find a parking space in Ohio city.

 

The gondolas can move 3-4000 people an hour.  They probably need to move 1000 people an hour to be efficient. It would certainly be great for big events downtown. It would likely improve the flats walkability in the winter and draw more people during a down period. 

  I don't see this affecting RTA's role. I see it as enhancing it.  It would be mainly be a tourist draw but i would think people that live downtown and in surrounding areas may find it useful to go car free.  Why be limited in where your location is? To link together most of the main social gathering spots, it would be good for the employees of these restaurants and customers. One could conceivably go from Coastal Taco and 8-10 minutes later, maybe faster, be sitting at townhall. Try doing that on a busy weekend in the flats with a car and then hope to find a parking space in Ohio city.

 

BINGO. People that come to Cleveland in the winter to see the Cavs, concerts, etc. would not have to restrict themselves to East 4th. The more people can see of our city, the better.

You'd be able to do the same thing with better light rail connections.  Heck, you could ride a bike from coastal taco to town hall in 8 minutes.

You'd be able to do the same thing with better light rail connections.  Heck, you could ride a bike from coastal taco to town hall in 8 minutes.

 

Yeah, I could bike from Coastal Taco to Townhall in January in about 25 minutes - for the small toll of a lost limb to frost bite and permafrost on my lips.

 

A light rail from the flats to OC would be difficult due to the terrain shift as well as the river.

There aren't too many at coastal taco on super cold days making your example moot.

 

People ride bikes all year long in Cleveland and don't lose limbs.  They do it in Copenhagen too where it is much colder.

Rail lines from the flats to west 25th already exist and could be improved cheaper than building a gondola

Rail lines from the flats to west 25th already exist and could be improved cheaper than building a gondola

 

You can't use a simple math equation though when it comes to RTA. If leadership is uninterested or unable to lobby for rail expansion then it's a moot point.

any attention being given to this amusement park ride should be given to fixing RTA and improving bus and rail. 

It will be easy enough to bring a bike on board or luggage. People could park at the Muni lot and hop on the gondola from there. They would get great views with many options of places to visit.

  Not everyone wants to ride a bike to get around especially if you are socializing after work which is 90% of people at the bars.  A gondola system would make Cleveland much more walkable and mellow out the downtown workers.

^ you could do the same thing with rail improvements. 

^ you could do the same thing with rail improvements. 

 

Again, where is the momentum for rail expansion? RTA leadership doesn't have the energy for this for whatever reason.

Where is the money for the amusement park ride?

Where is the money for the amusement park ride?

 

We don't know. But we do know that there's people lobbying for SKylift. Believe me, everyone on this forum wishes RTA would be proactive with rail and funding, but they are not.

It's not a good reason to look at a pie in the sky solution. maybe the RTA board needs to be shaken up.

I think a light rail down Detroit from 65th into Downtown would be incredible.. but busses already commandeered that route.

The Skylift is not about taking money away from RTA. It will be a privately funded operation. I don't see any value in arguing that RTA is going to have to foot the bill for this. There will certainly be some linkages to RTA but it should be on land use and maybe some pass programs. This program has nothing to do with the need for new trains or expanding rail.

  This could harm the expansion of the waterfront line. If this is successful, it may curtail the waterfront line altogether.  That may not be a bad thing if RTA is able to put the rail money to better use in other places.

^ you could do the same thing with rail improvements. 

 

Again, where is the momentum for rail expansion? RTA leadership doesn't have the energy for this for whatever reason.

 

If RTA leadership doesn't have the energy to develop needed future rail services, surf, they are not acting in the public interest and should be removed from office.  It's true, existing rail doesn't serve all the places Skylift is talking about -- as I said, I can go along with a line from, say, FWB to Whiskey and Wendy islands -- these are isolated places away from development.  But the idea of lines to Ohio City, to/from FEB and along the waterfront (wait, doesn't RTA have a rail line with this name?) is duplication or rail rapid transit service. 

 

As for hoping down to the Flats or over the river to W. 25th for a beer or a bite before a Cavs or Indians playoff game.  It's currently easy to do so by rail.  The HL or the trolley's can zip you up to PHS.  We need to appreciate and build up the wealth of transit that we already have and not allow it to deteriorate further.  Significant development has sprung up convenient to these transit nodes and more potential such development is on the drawing board.  GRT ... Gondola Rapid Transit, we don't need.

Skylift news. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/05/jon_stahl_isnt_giving_up_on_cl.html

I am one to always applaud different and thinking outside the box.  I can't figure out what my opinion on this is. I'm leaning towards most days having empty gondolas floating around and people not on the street walking, biking and taking buses.  But I realize this guy is smart and creative.  Is the idea so blatantly bad that it might actually be ok

I see it as any other transportation option. It will enhance the walkabillity of the neighborhoods it serves.  I consider the gondolas like moving sidewalks at an airport. People will find a way to use them.  Its a tool but it will also be an attraction as its going to provide amazing views. 

I'm skeptical of Skylift, but supporters should be excited because the PD now clearly backs the project and now is publishing a bunch of articles highlighting both Stahl and the project...

 

For context, a decade or so ago, Cleveland was fighting for funding to rebuild the Inner Belt bridge and somebody threw in the idea of reviving a watered down version Albert Porter's Clark Freeway from the 1960s, calling it the "Opportunity Corridor."  The PD suddenly started pushing the project with a barrage of positive articles and, as they say, the rest is history.

Is there a map anywhere, showing the skylift's proposed route and where it stops?

 

 

A moving sidewalk WOULD be really cool. Has that ever been done outdoors? It's funny how airports and amusement parks have the greatest transit systems. I bet grocery stores and Walmarts will get streetcars/rail or even moving sidewalks before most cities do.

moving sidewalks. just want to confirm thats what i read.

Is that stupid too?

Is that stupid too?

 

If you have to ask...

Is that stupid too?

Is that stupid too?

 

you are the same guy that says Clevelanders are obese in other threads right?  allowing people to have an excuse to not walk certainly does not help that narrative.  So which one is it.  Are we fat and need to stay fat?  or are we not fat and could use something to help us be lazy

im certainly not the arbiter of what a city should and shouldn't do.  But i cannot imagine the New York Times article that would come about about moving sidewalks in Cleveland.  NBC news tonight showing people just gliding by along streets as cars are driving by.  In my opinion, that would be up there with the massive balloon release in public square back in the 80's.

Is that stupid too?

Is that stupid too?

 

you are the same guy that says Clevelanders are obese in other threads right?  allowing people to have an excuse to not walk certainly does not help that narrative.  So which one is it.  Are we fat and need to stay fat?  or are we not fat and could use something to help us be lazy

 

No, but someone posted a city ranking list showing the fattest cities in America where Cleveland ranked very badly and I responded showing another recent study that showed Cleveland much more favorably, at the bottom. I mentioned Northern Ohio cities being fatter than Southern Ohio cities but I was referencing Akron, Toledo and Youngstown, which all ranked badly on the list. It's weird how you misinterpreted that post and then held a grudge over it, for weeks...

 

I don't know why you guys are so upset about this concept. You should be glad that new things like this are being proposed. From what I read in one of the recent articles, they're looking at private funding. This isn't something that will be operated and funded by RTA so it makes no sense to say that the money would be better spent advancing rail and bus service. It's apples to oranges. This project also serves a much different purpose.

Northern Ohio is healthier than Southern Ohio. 

 

Study suggests NE Ohio life expectancy longer than southern part of state

 

http://www.cleveland19.com/story/35376123/study-suggests-ne-ohio-life-expectancy-longer-than-southern-part-of-state

^^ i can assure you that there is no grudge.  and im not upset about the skytrain concept...i said a few posts back i cant decide how i feel about it. 

Someone else likes the Skylift idea.  The article is a few years old. Those gondolas look really sharp. 

 

https://www.dezeen.com/2016/05/05/aerial-cable-car-gondola-chicago-marks-barfield-davis-brody-bond/

 

Aerial cable car proposed for Chicago by Marks Barfield and Davis Brody Bond

Jenna McKnight | 5 May 2016 

Marks Barfield Architects and Davis Brody Bond have teamed up to design an aerial "gondola" that would stretch over the city of Chicago and serve as a major tourist attraction

 

paris suburbs are getting an aerial tram system:

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/paris-to-build-145m-cable-car-system/index.html

Is it time to dust off the cobwebs for buzz worthy transportation ideas such as aerial gondolas?  Would be easier way to activate our new lakefront nature preserve when/if we can finally shut down Burke.  Could have possible touch points such as to Metro Parks at Edgewater and to the new at Gordon Park waterfront, Tremont, Ohio City Westside Market, Scranton Penninsula or Tower City Bedrock, Irishtown Bend Park...

 

https://www.cleveland.com/architecture/2017/04/city_planning_commission_gives.html

 

if Paris can do it...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-04/by-2025-parisians-could-commute-by-gondola

 

Why not