I look forward to this groups thoughts on this article:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/cleveland_state_universitys_wo.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cleveland State University's Wolstein Center is still a financial drain, three years after CSU hired a sports marketing company and a new firm to manage and promote the facility.

 

 

How about offering the Wolstein Center as a space for a  Mega Church? Seriously, some of these church have congregations of 15,000 people.

Tough call for CSU.  What exactly does the university use the main space of the Wolstein Center for, other than basketball games?

^They use it for graduations, obviously.  They also rent it out for graduations.  I actually had both my HS and grad school ceremonies there.  Besides that, to my knowledge, they try to rent it out for concerts and other ceremonies.  Apparently, that is not going that well with the Q being the preferred destination and offering a better deal.

 

^^I noticed a few of those mega-churches have popped up along 77 (or maybe Route 8 ) closer to Akron.  I'm not sure a mega church would be able to draw here in the City the way they do elsewhere.

How about offering the Wolstein Center as a space for a  Mega Church? Seriously, some of these church have congregations of 15,000 people.

 

No thanks.

 

CSU Vikings Mens Basketball is the biggest draw, yet their average attendance is only 2,000 to 4,000 per game over the last 20-plus years. Their best year was 1997 with an average attendance of 4,589.

SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_State_Vikings_men's_basketball

 

That can easily be accommodated at public hall which seats up to 7,000 for basketball.

 

I say tear it down and replace it with some high-rise student housing, CSU hotel and a conference center on the ground floor similar to the Kent State's recently built in downtown Kent.

 

 

How about offering the Wolstein Center as a space for a  Mega Church? Seriously, some of these church have congregations of 15,000 people.

 

No thanks.

 

CSU Vikings Mens Basketball is the biggest draw, yet their average attendance is only 2,000 to 4,000 per game over the last 20-plus years. Their best year was 1997 with an average attendance of 4,589.

SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_State_Vikings_men's_basketball

 

That can easily be accommodated at public hall which seats up to 7,000 for basketball.

 

I say tear it down and replace it with some high-rise student housing, CSU hotel and a conference center on the ground floor similar to the Kent State's recently built in downtown Kent.

 

 

 

I'd rather see that kind of development go on undeveloped land.  CSU just built the Wolstein in the late 80's.  It houses all their athletic department--so it does serve a purpose beyond public events.

 

What needs to happen is the University needs to give the management contract to a private firm, and give them carte blanche to run it as they see fit and compete with the Q for rentals.  The competition would help attract even more shows to town with more attractive rent deals.  Right now you have a state institution saying "this is our rent and we won't budge," so as you'll notice there are rarely any concerts or events there any longer.

^The University uses it for commencement (one in December, two in May), large banquets (Athletic Awards luncheon), Career Fair (moved from Woodling) and probably others that I can't think of right now.  The basketball schedule (men's and women's) takes priority from November and hopefully through March.  In May and June there are plenty of local graduation ceremonies to keep things moving.

Sorry, I meant which CSU-related events are housed there.  Since the non-CSU events aren't paying enough of the bills, if CSU can find other venues for its own basketball games and commencement, they should be selling or demolishing that place.

 

What needs to happen is the University needs to give the management contract to a private firm, and give them carte blanche to run it as they see fit and compete with the Q for rentals.  The competition would help attract even more shows to town with more attractive rent deals.  Right now you have a state institution saying "this is our rent and we won't budge," so as you'll notice there are rarely any concerts or events there any longer.

(emphasis mine)

 

Is this part definitely true?  Per the Cleveland.com article, CSU already does contract out the booking, promotion, and management of the place to a professional firm, no?

There's plenty of land for mixed use developments. I agrue that, getting a megachurch in the facility is the best option. If they can't make that happen, the next best option may be to shrink the size of it to more adequately compete with smaller shows. The last option, which I would probably prefer the most but is the least likely, is to tear it down and rebuild it. I wouldn't want it at Public Auditorium because I believe that CSU needs its own facility that it can control. But maybe, if possible, they could rebuild it in or around the Gateway district and become technically a Gateway facility. I think that could actually help with CSU Men's Basketball attendance as well. If possible, they should tear it down and rebuild it at Gateway

Megachurches turn my stomach. If someone wants to discuss the reasons why, meet me in the religion thread.

 

I'd rather have that arena be demolished and the land used for surface parking than have a megachurch use the Wolstein Center.

^I agree. What's with the megachurch fetish? If you really want a megachurch, mail me 100 dollars and get your friends and family to do so as well, and we'll talk. 

 

I'd rather the Center not be torn down, rather CSU to hire some smart people to run/market it. I WOULD like though, some streetfront retail instead of the current nothingness.

I'd rather the Center not be torn down, rather CSU to hire some smart people to run/market it. I WOULD like though, some streetfront retail instead of the current nothingness.

From day one, the management of the Wolstein Center has been handled by an outside company.  There were good years for events and revenue (Cleveland Crunch indoor soccer) and bad years. Different company's have won the contract, all with the same goal of making money.  These are smart people. The problems are outside of the management company's control.

 

As for street front retail, there are three buildings directly across from the Wolstein Center on the North side of Prospect.  I believe there are vacant storefronts in those buildings.  If the area was in need of retail, I'm sure the rent in those buildings would be reasonable.  What do you have in mind for that area?

Sorry, I meant which CSU-related events are housed there.  Since the non-CSU events aren't paying enough of the bills, if CSU can find other venues for its own basketball games and commencement, they should be selling or demolishing that place.

 

What needs to happen is the University needs to give the management contract to a private firm, and give them carte blanche to run it as they see fit and compete with the Q for rentals.  The competition would help attract even more shows to town with more attractive rent deals.  Right now you have a state institution saying "this is our rent and we won't budge," so as you'll notice there are rarely any concerts or events there any longer.

(emphasis mine)

 

Is this part definitely true?  Per the Cleveland.com article, CSU already does contract out the booking, promotion, and management of the place to a professional firm, no?

 

They do have a contract but the contract doesn't allow for them to change the rent, negotiate, buy content, etc like other Global Spectrum Managed facilities.  You'll note they mentioned a couple promoters outright canceling dates--something that doesn't happen nearly as much in venues that can be flexible in their rental deals.

The Wolstein center is an example of the 80's-90's thinking where everyone started realizing the urban core needed to be rebuilt, but didn't understand exactly how to make it happen. Another example is the strip mall across from the west side market.

 

If the Wolstein center had been built with 6 or 7 floor student housing attached on 3 corners, and the student athletic center on the fourth corner, with retail on the ground floors... I think things would be much different.

 

Do I support tearing it down? Not until a definite plan for replacement with something better is presented.

Megachurches turn my stomach. If someone wants to discuss the reasons why, meet me in the religion thread.

 

I'd rather have that arena be demolished and the land used for surface parking than have a megachurch use the Wolstein Center.

 

Regardless of your personal opinion, a megachurch (a la "The Word") is a valid use of the space. That you would rather have it torn down and replaced as a surface lot instead of it being something you apparently have a philosophical disagreement with is something I just don't get. As a Christian myself, I'm not a big fan of the megachurch experience. Too impersonal for me. But it's not about me. There are tons of people that love it and if attracting a megachurch is a way to finally get some use out of this building, CSU would be a fool not to do it. (And again, this is coming from a person who'd rather have the Wolstein Center torn down and rebuilt closer to Gateway).

Megachurches turn my stomach. If someone wants to discuss the reasons why, meet me in the religion thread.

 

I'd rather have that arena be demolished and the land used for surface parking than have a megachurch use the Wolstein Center.

 

You would rather have a surface lot than have 5,000-20,000 people downtown? I think someone hacked your account.

 

You would rather have a surface lot than have 5,000-20,000 people downtown? I think someone hacked your account.

 

Would you want 5,000-20,000 people coming downtown for ANY kind of activity? Some uses are worse than others. At one extreme is a megachurch. At the other is 20,000 people coming downtown for strip clubs, X-rated movie theaters and massage parlors. I consider a surface parking lot and a million other uses as a more moderate use in between those extremes. You may not like my view, nor am I asking you to.

 

Question: How do other cities make it work with both a college arena and a pro arena?  Several mid-sized cities have both.  Why can't CSU make it work?  Two hours away in Pittsburgh and Columbus both cities have college arenas and pro arenas (in Pittsburgh's case both are new)...what situation exists that allow two arenas to work in these other similar sized cities and not here?

Do we know if they're "working" or are they having the same troubles Cleveland is having?

Good point.  Maybe someone on UO has some knowledge of those other places.

 

You would rather have a surface lot than have 5,000-20,000 people downtown? I think someone hacked your account.

 

Would you want 5,000-20,000 people coming downtown for ANY kind of activity? Some uses are worse than others. At one extreme is a megachurch. At the other is 20,000 people coming downtown for strip clubs, X-rated movie theaters and massage parlors. I consider a surface parking lot and a million other uses as a more moderate use in between those extremes. You may not like my view, nor am I asking you to.

 

So one side of the coin is a megachurch and the other side is a Red Light District? Come on KJP. You're usually not one for hyperbole. That's borderline offensive. Again, I personally don't care for megachurches as my religious experience. But it is not. about. me. And I think your hatred for the concept of megachurches is clouding your vision on this one, my friend. Essentially saying a megachurch would be as extreme as having a freaking Red Light District is kinda out there. A megachurch is a valid use of that space.

How about offering the Wolstein Center as a space for a  Mega Church? Seriously, some of these church have congregations of 15,000 people.

 

No thanks.

 

CSU Vikings Mens Basketball is the biggest draw, yet their average attendance is only 2,000 to 4,000 per game over the last 20-plus years. Their best year was 1997 with an average attendance of 4,589.

SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_State_Vikings_men's_basketball

 

That can easily be accommodated at public hall which seats up to 7,000 for basketball.

 

I say tear it down and replace it with some high-rise student housing, CSU hotel and a conference center on the ground floor similar to the Kent State's recently built in downtown Kent.

 

 

 

I'd rather see that kind of development go on undeveloped land.  CSU just built the Wolstein in the late 80's.  It houses all their athletic department--so it does serve a purpose beyond public events.

 

What needs to happen is the University needs to give the management contract to a private firm, and give them carte blanche to run it as they see fit and compete with the Q for rentals.  The competition would help attract even more shows to town with more attractive rent deals.  Right now you have a state institution saying "this is our rent and we won't budge," so as you'll notice there are rarely any concerts or events there any longer.

 

 

Yes, this would be the next best step.

A megachurch sounds valid, or at least worth a try. CSUs current issue with the center is it looses money. If the church idea helps change that its a win. Certainly worth a try before spending the money to demolish it.

So one side of the coin is a megachurch and the other side is a Red Light District? Come on KJP. You're usually not one for hyperbole. That's borderline offensive. Again, I personally don't care for megachurches as my religious experience. But it is not. about. me. And I think your hatred for the concept of megachurches is clouding your vision on this one, my friend. Essentially saying a megachurch would be as extreme as having a freaking Red Light District is kinda out there. A megachurch is a valid use of that space.

 

Sorry, but Megachurches and their attendees freak me out. I hate groupthink and these people scare me like zombies. That's just what I believe. That's all I'm going to say about it.

Once upon a time the Jehovah Witnesses used to rent the Convo I would say one weekend ever month?  Do they still do that?

I would have two problems with it becoming a megachurch. 1st, I'm quite opposed to any state property being used by a religious group, even if they're paying rent. 2nd, it would seem to limit the use of the place on Saturday nights or Sunday afternoons (not enough time to set up/tear down between events.) Maybe an occasional event there, but every Sunday would be too much.

They do have a contract but the contract doesn't allow for them to change the rent, negotiate, buy content, etc like other Global Spectrum Managed facilities.  You'll note they mentioned a couple promoters outright canceling dates--something that doesn't happen nearly as much in venues that can be flexible in their rental deals.

 

Ah, got it, thanks.

 

Question: How do other cities make it work with both a college arena and a pro arena?  Several mid-sized cities have both.  Why can't CSU make it work?  Two hours away in Pittsburgh and Columbus both cities have college arenas and pro arenas (in Pittsburgh's case both are new)...what situation exists that allow two arenas to work in these other similar sized cities and not here?

 

Columbus and Pittsburgh have popular college athletic programs that sell a lot of arena tickets, no? I'm guessing that's a pretty huge difference.  Wouldn't shock me if OSU or Pitt sell more hockey tickets than CSU does Men's basketball.

Everyone has opinions on what they like or don't, but at the end of the day its about making the facility profitable.  As long as nothing illegal is going on I don't see the problem with any proposed use.

Once upon a time the Jehovah Witnesses used to rent the Convo I would say one weekend ever month?  Do they still do that?

 

Yes, they still do this. But it they only come once a year during the summer for about two weeks.

 

Sorry, but Megachurches and their attendees freak me out. I hate groupthink and these people scare me like zombies. That's just what I believe. That's all I'm going to say about it.

 

Which is ironic considering the like-minded nature of those on UO. I hate group think... unless it's my group think.

 

Megachurces require a ridiculous amount of parking. The church along I-77 in North Canton has a sea of parking around their building. My fear would be, 1 month in, the congregation would be begging for easy parking. Then what building gets demolished for surface lots? The idea sounds great in theory. The reality is the demographic that these churches attract would probably rather stay in the burbs.

 

I can fix CSU's issue with the Wolstein Center. Field a basketball team that doesn't suck.

They'd probably park in the same place the people who use the place currently park. Plenty of garages and lots in the area.

I agree with you on the group think thing.

They'd probably park in the same place the people who use the place currently park. Plenty of garages and lots in the area.

I agree with you on the group think thing.

I really don't think parking is that big of an issue for the Wolstein Center.  As with anything that you do routinely, you learn where you will park based on when you arrive and then how much time you need to walk to your destination.  A regular event, where the majority of the attendees are returning guests, will develop patterns and adjusted travel times to meet the attendees parking and walking parameters.

I'm all for building more dorms in the four corners and around the top.  This would remove seats from top and make it perfect for mid-sized events year round.

 

Can CSU host more high school playoff games as well...like OU does with theirs?

 

BTW...Whats facilities actually make money (Browns Stadium??)

I'm all for building more dorms in the four corners and around the top.  This would remove seats from top and make it perfect for mid-sized events year round.

 

Can CSU host more high school playoff games as well...like OU does with theirs?

 

BTW...Whats facilities actually make money (Browns Stadium??)

 

Browns Stadium makes lots of money.  Just not for the taxpayers who paid for it!  Haslem is doing ok though! 

 

The deal at the Q is even worse with Gilbert and the Cavs charging back all kinds of routine expenses like lightbulbs as "capital costs."

Which is ironic considering the like-minded nature of those on UO. I hate group think... unless it's my group think.

 

 

We're disagreeing here, aren't we? ;)

Would you want 5' date='000-20,000 people coming downtown for ANY kind of activity? Some uses are worse than others. At one extreme is a megachurch. At the other is 20,000 people coming downtown for strip clubs, X-rated movie theaters and massage parlors. I consider a surface parking lot and a million other uses as a more moderate use in between those extremes. You may not like my view, nor am I asking you to.[/quote']

 

So one side of the coin is a megachurch and the other side is a Red Light District? Come on KJP. You're usually not one for hyperbole. That's borderline offensive. Again' date=' I personally don't care for megachurches as my religious experience. But it is not. about. me. And I think your hatred for the concept of megachurches is clouding your vision on this one, my friend. Essentially saying a megachurch would be as extreme as having a freaking Red Light District is kinda out there. A megachurch is a valid use of that space.[/quote']

 

I would take strip clubs, X-rated movie theaters and massage parlors in a second over a megachurch. Seriously. I think its insane that one would even want a megachurch anywhere in Cleveland. Strip clubs, X-rated movie theaters and massage parlors bring about their own problems, including scaring off development---but those uses are FAR preferable for the city than a megachurch. At least they would add some urban intrigue and grit. A megachurch would certainly scare off lots of investment and interest in the city.

 

For now, I say demolition is a bad idea (though far better than the megachurch). i think CSU needs to be better at renting it and being flexible on prices/events, etc. It it MUST torn down, then build a hotel and an an apt bldg with street level retail.

Yes, but the number of jw conventions in the summer in cleveland is down to only three. More conventions are being held in areas closer to other cities, the Pittsburgh area now goes to conventions at the war memorial arena in Johnstown when we used to go to Cleveland.

 

I think that multiple arenas work in Pittsburgh is because, simply put, the size of the schools, the types of teams, and the types of sports. Consol energy center has the penguins, power arena football, and most major concerts. The Peterson is home to Pitt basketball and additional concerts, at a school with a good basketball team and around 30.000 students, many of which live there. The demographics are totally different and it seems as if the wolstein and Pete are managed differently too.

 

I personally have no problem with a megachurch.  And strippers.  The more the merrier. 

 

It would be shortsighted to not welcome a weekly rental to a church.  Their members spend money in restaurants and potentially stay around downtown after the service.  In Houston a church actually BOUGHT the old arena when the Rockets moved to the Toyota Center. 

 

 

How about a mega-stripper-church...awesome!  Seriously though, is Cleveland even in that market of mega churches...i think not really (unlike some of the other cities nearby).  Unless maybe it was a franchise of Farrakhan's Chicago church...I guess I could see it.  Ugh!

I am the farthest thing from religious but c'mon. Rather have a giant parking lot?!!! It's quite ironic that several on here would call these church goers unwelcoming to other groups, yet several on here don't want them to come here since they freak them out! Do you not see it's the same thing?

 

And they would also rip on them for being scared of the city and not coming downtown. Now you are trying to keep them away.  Nice.

I am the farthest thing from religious but c'mon. Rather have a giant parking lot?!!! It's quite ironic that several on here would call these church goers unwelcoming to other groups, yet several on here don't want them to come here since they freak them out! Do you not see it's the same thing?

 

And they would also rip on them for being scared of the city and not coming downtown. Now you are trying to keep them away.  Nice.

 

Preach!! (Pun intended)

My original version of this post continued the debate about the value and political-power dangers of megachurches, but since this thread is about the Wolstein Center, I removed my comment and instead posted it at the religion thread....

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15106.msg676766.html#msg676766

 

Are there any other potential uses for the Wolstein Center? If not, tear it down. It's a waste of space. I prefer more student housing and university hotel atop of a university conference center.

My original version of this post continued the debate about the value and political-power dangers of megachurches, but since this thread is about the Wolstein Center, I removed my comment and instead posted it at the religion thread....

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15106.msg676766.html#msg676766

 

Are there any other potential uses for the Wolstein Center? If not, tear it down. It's a waste of space. I prefer more student housing and university hotel atop of a university conference center.

 

Why not then a repurposing incorporating the Wolstein into the conference center.  There is plenty of space on the site to add towers.

^That makes sense. There's plenty of land at that site to incorporate some of these other ideas. Demolishing it without investigating the potential is unwise.

I don't see the need to rush into demolishing the center- not when there's plenty of vacant lots for CSU to build on which CSU currently owns.  A student conference center could fit into one of the surface lots along Payne- behind the newly built Langston townhomes and apartments.  Urban planning is all about connecting existing assets; though the center is a liability for CSU, the physical building itself could be considered an underused asset in the center of town.  We've had success stories regarding the reuse of existing assets... not just with apartment rehabs but with other venues as well (not to compare the two, but Playhouse Square was once itself an underused asset in the center of town, slated for demo).

 

Regarding CSU's uses of the Center (the basket ball team probably being the entity using the center the most), I believe CSU's basketball team would be more popular if CSU had a larger on-campus student population; CSU won't have a larger student population without building more dorms (along with greater marketing of the university).  That and actually marketing the team to the neighborhoods around, including downtown, could increase the amount of people who actually come to see the game.  How often have we heard of CSU playing a basketball game at the Wolstein Center, along with how much ticket prices are?  If people knew how cheap tickets can be to purchase- to watch a good college basketball game close to where they live- I think more people might take advantage.   

 

How often do the Lake Erie Monsters fill The Q?  The Wolstein Center might be a better fit for the team.  Besides- CSU has plenty left to tear down along Euclid!  Bwahahahaha....

 

 

How often do the Lake Erie Monsters fill The Q?  The Wolstein Center might be a better fit for the team.  Besides- CSU has plenty left to tear down along Euclid!  Bwahahahaha....

 

Wolstein doesn't have ice making capabilities.  So huge expense to facilitate that move.

 

Agree with your other points however.

Would you want 5' date='000-20,000 people coming downtown for ANY kind of activity? Some uses are worse than others. At one extreme is a megachurch. At the other is 20,000 people coming downtown for strip clubs, X-rated movie theaters and massage parlors. I consider a surface parking lot and a million other uses as a more moderate use in between those extremes. You may not like my view, nor am I asking you to.[/quote']

 

So one side of the coin is a megachurch and the other side is a Red Light District? Come on KJP. You're usually not one for hyperbole. That's borderline offensive. Again' date=' I personally don't care for megachurches as my religious experience. But it is not. about. me. And I think your hatred for the concept of megachurches is clouding your vision on this one, my friend. Essentially saying a megachurch would be as extreme as having a freaking Red Light District is kinda out there. A megachurch is a valid use of that space.[/quote']

 

I would take strip clubs, X-rated movie theaters and massage parlors in a second over a megachurch. Seriously. I think its insane that one would even want a megachurch anywhere in Cleveland. Strip clubs, X-rated movie theaters and massage parlors bring about their own problems, including scaring off development---but those uses are FAR preferable for the city than a megachurch. At least they would add some urban intrigue and grit. A megachurch would certainly scare off lots of investment and interest in the city.

 

For now, I say demolition is a bad idea (though far better than the megachurch). i think CSU needs to be better at renting it and being flexible on prices/events, etc. It it MUST torn down, then build a hotel and an an apt bldg with street level retail.

 

Beyond ridiculous remark, but not surprising considering the source.

Why not then a repurposing incorporating the Wolstein into the conference center.  There is plenty of space on the site to add towers.

 

I think it would be interesting to build dorm space around the Wolstein... It could be CSU's answer to the Village at 115 dorms at Case

Why not then a repurposing incorporating the Wolstein into the conference center.  There is plenty of space on the site to add towers.

 

I think it would be interesting to build dorm space around the Wolstein... It could be CSU's answer to the Village at 115 dorms at Case

 

Right, or a hotel geared towards students and parents--but could also be used for business groups needing the conference center as a part of their group trip. 

Beyond ridiculous remark, but not surprising considering the source.

 

Jeremy--really, man? You probably think the disneyification of Times Square is a good thing, too. On not wanting a megachurch downtown (or anywhere in the city), I did not mean to offend you if I did....  Cleveland must be forward-thinking and progressive. A megachurch is neither of those.

 

Right' date=' or a hotel geared towards students and parents--but could also be used for business groups needing the conference center as a part of their group trip.[/quote']

 

I like the hotel idea. Some of you may recall, there was a hotel nearby---at 21 st & Euclid----which became Viking Hall---it was the Holiday Inn-Downtown (with Holiday Inn-Lakeside being at 12th & Lakeside).