bring on the two story payless shoes!

 

 

 

Payless!  Ugh!  That was like a stake thru my heart!

MTS is defiantly back :-D

Medina, Summit battle to land Cabela's store

Thursday, May 31, 2007

Terry Oblander, Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Medina and Summit counties are preparing big tax packages in pursuit of Cabela's, the outdoor merchandise megastore that promises new jobs and millions in sales. Medina County commissioners hope they will land a new Cabela's by today by approving a tax giveback that may return hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales tax revenue to the company if it builds in Brunswick.

 

Summit County, meanwhile, is still trying to put together a deal that would create a "synergy" between a proposed domed soccer stadium and a Cabela's store. Part of the venture could include a county tax on cigarettes and alcohol that would raise $4 million for the stadium and pour $1 million into county arts groups.

 

It may be today or never for the lucrative sales-tax giveback in Medina County. The state law allowing counties to offer the sales tax incentive expires at midnight.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/medina/118060023155150.xml&coll=2

 

bring on the two story payless shoes!

 

 

 

Payless!  Ugh!  That was like a stake thru my heart!

 

Mytwosense, Why pay more when you can payless? =)

 

I've never been a fan of Pay Less Shoe Sores!

 

bring on the two story payless shoes!

 

 

 

Payless!  Ugh!  That was like a stake thru my heart!

MTS is defiantly back :-D

 

Missed me?  he he he he :-D

Macedonia develops plans for soccer stadium

Summit Council to consider sin tax to help pay for it

Saturday, July 21, 2007

Laura Johnston

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

It's not quite time for kick-off, but plans for a Major League Soccer stadium in Macedonia are dribbling forward.

 

The city has reached a tentative agreement - a framework, they call it - with Northfield Center Township to annex more than 200 acres south of Highland Road, along Ohio 8. And the Summit County Council plans to vote Aug. 6 whether to put a countywide sin tax on the ballot that would help pay for the project.

 

Developer Paul Garofolo, president and chief executive officer of the Wolstein Sports & Entertainment Group LLC, has proposed building a retractable roof stadium and a shopping district on land straddling Macedonia and Northfield Center. The stadium would seat up to 25,000 and cost as much as $165 million.

 

"Everything could always go 'Poof!' at any part of this process," Macedonia Mayor Don Kuchta said. "But in an attempt to make a friendlier transaction between two communities, we came up with a framework."

 

MORE: http://www.cleveland.com

 

Are these people idiots? They are constructing an American football stadium just outside of downtown Akron with the same capacity. The seasons do not run into each other -- it seems to me it'd be a no-brainer to join up with the University of Akron and save some big $$$!

 

That's the thing that frustrates me about people, and I'm sure it's like this elsewhere. Why is it so bad to hedge your bets a little with big projects like this? OH, MLS wants a soccer-only facility. Well, screw MLS! They aren't plunking down $150 million in each city for a league that may go the way of the Red, White and Blue basketball. 

I don't know if this applies to the new Akron stadium, but there was a study done by the MLS where they have to have their own stadiums to be profitable.  If you remember, the Crew used to play at Ohio Stadium but they have to rent the stadium, lose most of the concession monies, etc.

 

If you look now, most MLS teams have their own stadium.

 

The part I think is ridiculous is the cost.. when the crew built their stadium circa 1998 the cost was $28.5 million, and look what a great facility they built.

 

Finally.. from what I understand from a friend who works for the Chicago MLS organization, there is nothing guaranteed that Cleveland (area) is getting a franchise.  So a lot of this may be premature.

I believe the new Akron Zips stadium has been designed so that it can accommodate soccer.  This is not to say that the UA Soccer team will play there as their "Stadium" continues to get upgraded.  If an MLS team wanted to play at the new UA stadium, then I believe it would be possible.  With that said, I think each side has drawn a line in the sand.  UA was not going to have an new stadium anywhere but on campus.  The current Rubber Bowl is too far from campus now, and this is one of the main reasons for a new stadium.  It sounds to me that the MLS team has it's reasons for not wanting to play in Akron.  So, it looks like if NE Ohio wants an MLS team, another stadium will need to be built. 

 

 

I don't know if this applies to the new Akron stadium, but there was a study done by the MLS where they have to have their own stadiums to be profitable.  If you remember, the Crew used to play at Ohio Stadium but they have to rent the stadium, lose most of the concession monies, etc.

 

 

I have heard the same thing, but I don't buy it for a minute.  Why wouldn't rent and concession&parking profits be negotiable?  They are just being greedy.  "Give us a new stadium or we will go someplace that will."

I have heard the same thing, but I don't buy it for a minute.  Why wouldn't rent and concession&parking profits be negotiable?  They are just being greedy.  "Give us a new stadium or we will go someplace that will."

 

How do you know what is profitable for an MLS franchise?  Have you ever run one?

 

When you play in a facility other then your own you have to pay rent.. AND you don't just magically get to keep all the concession monies earned.. AND the parking on facility.. well.. there's a chunk taken out of that.

 

Business 101 - Nothing is free.. it's more profitable to buy then rent.

Also.. I don't think Cleveland would shed a tear if the MLS decided to award the franchise to another city.

How many MLS stadiums have retractable roofs?  Answer: None.  Three stadiums are to be replaced with soccer-specific venues, none of which have plans for a retractable roof.  That might be a clue to the high price tag, and seems to me a major extrangavance for a soccer-specific stadium in the middle of Macedon.  As for "other events", other events like... concerts.  And is the area starved for 20,000 seat concert venues?  In MACEDONIA?  The new stadiums in Salt Lake City and New Jersey are estimated at $86 and $100-220 million, respectively.

 

Note that Crew stadium, I believe, was funded with private moneys.  According to Wikipedia*, "When renovations to the football stadium forced the Crew out, their owner, oil billionaire Lamar Hunt, decided to build the team its own dedicated home....The construction cost of $28.5 million was covered entirely with private funds from Mr. Hunt and his Hunt Sports group."

 

Is it shocking to anyone that a guy using his own money to build his own team a stadium was more judicious about stadium costs than these other publicly financed projects?

 

* Which is never wrong

I have heard the same thing, but I don't buy it for a minute.  Why wouldn't rent and concession&parking profits be negotiable?  They are just being greedy.  "Give us a new stadium or we will go someplace that will."

 

How do you know what is profitable for an MLS franchise?  Have you ever run one?

 

When you play in a facility other then your own you have to pay rent.. AND you don't just magically get to keep all the concession monies earned.. AND the parking on facility.. well.. there's a chunk taken out of that.

 

Business 101 - Nothing is free.. it's more profitable to buy then rent.

 

Of course, but allow me to repost and bold the relevant part of my post, since you don't seem to have read what I actually wrote.

 

Why wouldn't rent and concession&parking profits be negotiable?

 

These are public facilities afterall, and if the public can pay to build a new stadium, I don't know why we wouldn't also be able to make reasonable concessions on an existing or shared new stadium to make an MLS team a profitable enterprise.  Do you?  Do you just believe the it won't work because they say it won't?  It seems like they have a bit of an incentive to convince communities that building a brand new MLS only stadium is the only way to secure a team.  That makes their statements a little suspect to me.  At the very least we should do our own due diligence instead of just up and handing out millions of dollars.

The reason Wolstein group wants to build a stadium at all is because he owns a large parcel of land that is wetlands right there.  Not much else you can build on it.  Its probably going to cost a lot to fill in and stabilize where they put the foundation of the stadium.  Its kind of nice of the public to help him finance and build this on his land.  Hey might as well build the best stadium if the public will finance too. 

 

Personally I see this being defeated at the ballot by Summit County residences.  The great majority of residences do not want an increase on sin taxes especially to help a big shot out of town developer.

Here's the latest...it looks like we can table arguments on this project until at least next spring.

 

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/17553756.htm

pd:

 

MACEDONIA

 

Soccer stadium plan cut back

A proposed project that includes a major league soccer stadium and retail complex in northern Summit County has been scaled back by the developer. Officials with Wolstein Sports & Entertainment Group LLC said they intend to limit the project to 125 acres in Macedeonia, eliminating the need to annex property from neighboring Northfield Center Township. Meanwhile, project financing remains in question following Summit County Council's decision last week not to place a countywide sin tax before voters in November to help cover costs.

Is There any news out of Macedonia?

Nordonia Hills Sun:

 

Will stadium polls tell polar tales?

Trustee's survey pans plan; Developer says it has support

Thursday, September 13, 2007

By Brian Lisik

Nordonia Hills Sun

 

A Northfield Center trust-ee's survey says area residents aren't interested in having a soccer stadium in their com-munity. But the developer pitching the project says its own study will draw a differ-ent conclusion.

 

The Wolstein Entertain-ment Group, which an-nounced plans for the project near State Route 8 more than a year ago, is in the process of releasing the results of its own community poll, representa-tive Paul Garofolo said this week.

 

"This poll will be as subjec-tive as Mr. (Paul) Buescher's," Garofolo said, referring to the results of a poll conducted by the Northfield Center Trustee earlier this month. Buescher's poll, conducted mainly through e-mail, that found 94 percent of respondents op-posed to the stadium project. "We're saying that it's subjec-tive up front, but it is a much larger sampling and the results are overwhelmingly in favor of the project."

 

Can't wait til this project ends up in the ABANDONED PROJECTS thread.

I think about all the wasteland by E 55th and wish the soccer stadium would go there, or tie in with Cleveland State.

Well...this thing is back in the news again. 

 

Let me get two things off my chest...First, I LOVE NEO and a lot of times wish I still lived there.  Secondly, I am a big sports fan and like soccer quite a bit.

 

Say what you will about soccer, or publicly-funded stadiums, or too much retail, or suburban sprawl, or whatever, the point here is that other metro areas are adding to their arsenal of attractions...and their abilities to attract residents, new businesses, media coverage, etc. 

 

Once again NEO is going to be left behind. 

 

Seattle already has been awarded an expansion MLS team...and it looks like Philadelphia and/or St. Louis is getting one, thanks to a more progressive state government and some interest from the locals instead of the bickering that is taking place in Macedonia. 

 

I concur with previous posts that this would be VERY cool to have in downtown Cleveland in conjunction with CSU but I doubt that will ever happen either.

 

ESPN link about Philly -

 

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=503982&cc=5901

 

News-Leader link about constant horsecrap coming out of Macedonia -

 

http://www.the-news-leader.com/news/article/3218561

^I don't want to be left behind when it comes to biotech and downtown housing. I can stand to be left behind when it comes to the MLS.

There are higher things on the list than an MLS stadium in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by stores that carry crap I don't need, and restaurants I'd never patronize.  Bring it downtown, fine, but if it's out in Macedonia, no thanks.  I hardly think that your assumption of a "more progressive state government" has anything to do with it.  How about smart growth instead of tearing up wetlands and corn fields for yet more unneccesary retail in an already saturated market.

Which doesn't have the infrastructure needed for a professional sports venue.

I like soccer, too, but I hardly think having a MLS team factors into a regions livability. Create wealth and all these things will sort themselves out.

^^Ditto.  Our leaders need not worry about these things right now.

On the contrary, I think the "leaders" that are present in the area need to shake things up...and this is something that is unique to only 16 or so cities in the US right now...

 

I'm not saying that MLS will save the region, or even become as popular as the NFL or MLB anytime soon, but I am saying that a well executed MLS-related development would be another feather in the cap of what already is a great place to live - and in my case, grow up.

 

How it gets lost on everyone here is well beyond me.

 

BTW...why not go after biotech, urban housing, AND projects like this?  I think the region is very capable of handling all of this. 

 

Haven't we learned anything from the Richfield Coliseum debacle?

I think the MLS should just get over itself and allow franchises to play in (mostly empty) NFL stadiums.  It's ridiculous.

 

How it gets lost on everyone here is well beyond me.

 

 

Because the vast majority of urban ohio posters feel suburbia is the root of all evil and unless you can take the RTA there, there's no reason for it existing.  They blame suburbanites for the downfall of the city rather than the people that still lived in it and screwed it up when growth protruded outward.  Anything new in the suburbs is the worst idea in the history of man.

 

Anyway, I know what you mean that it could bolster things.  Frisco, TX (far north suburb of Dallas) built an MLS stadium and a minor league basbeball stadium and its done very well to hlep spur growth in the northern suburbs.  The difference though is the DFW metroplex can support outward expansion; Cleveland can't.

 

 

Interesting, this...

 

Because the vast majority of urban ohio posters feel suburbia is the root of all evil and unless you can take the RTA there, there's no reason for it existing.  They blame suburbanites for the downfall of the city rather than the people that still lived in it and screwed it up when growth protruded outward.  Anything new in the suburbs is the worst idea in the history of man.

 

Then this...

 

The difference though is the DFW metroplex can support outward expansion; Cleveland can't.

The difference though is the DFW metroplex can support outward expansion; Cleveland can't.

 

Darling, there is a difference in demographics.  Texas has a high percentage of Mexicans, who are crazy about futbol.  NE Ohioans are crazy about football.

Fine put the MLS stadium in Akron.  To most Clevelanders its simply a suburb of Cleveland anyways.  Akron takes up 55sq miles last time I checked which was many many years ago.  So there should be plenty of space.  Akron is the most central point in Northeast Ohio if anyone bothered to check on a map.  It has multiple highways in all directions coming into it.  One of the best soccer teams in the country is the UofA soccer team.  Therefore Akron would gladly figure out a place to put a MLS stadium.  Perhaps it could go next to their professional Softball Racers team in the Firestone area.  Or maybe they could build one downtown near the Aeros minor league baseball stadium.  Or perhaps work with the UofA to build one on campus.  But we run into the issue that Wolstein doesn't own any land in Akron and can't control the whole deal.  Let him take over the Rubber Bowl then. I'm sure UofA is willing to sell that for a song.

 

Darling, there is a difference in demographics.  Texas has a high percentage of Mexicans, who are crazy about futbol.  NE Ohioans are crazy about football.

 

Mexicans in Texas?  Shocking.  Who Knew.

 

Apparently the demographics in Columbus are substantially different than in NE Ohio as well because the Columbus Crew draws pretty well:

 

CREW ATTENDANCE AVERAGES MORE THAN 20,000 OVER LAST FIVE HOME GAMES IN 2007

 

Over the last five home games of the 2007 regular season, Crew attendance averaged 20,295. The impressive run at the gate started on Aug. 18, when 21,639 filled Crew Stadium for the Black & Gold's game vs. D.C. United. That was followed by crowds of 16,036 on Sept. 2; 19,983 on Sept. 8; 24,300 on Sept. 30; and 19,517 on Oct. 6.

 

http://columbus.crew.mlsnet.com/news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20071112&content_id=129074&vkey=news_coc&fext=.jsp&team=t102  (last blurb)

 

Point is, there is an audience for soccer.  No it's not the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc.  I think an MLS stadium in midtown Cleveland would be ideal, used by CSU, high school football (Ignatius actually playing home games in Cleveland?  Plus the emergece of Glenville...I think it would be great), and of course the MLS team.  Wasn't there another thread discussing "alternative recreation facilities" in midtown?  I think it would be a good fit with that theme.

 

However, if the city (Cleveland) is not interested in this type of project yet a potential MLS franchise feels NE Ohio is a viable market, putting a stadium in Macedonia is not a bad idea.  Its just tiring reading this board sometimes and its strong anti-suburbs overtone. 

^ Yet the average attendance for the entire season in Columbus was 15,000. http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/2007/10/mls-attendance-averages.html

 

SHS have you followed this story at all? Cleveland and Akron were never in the running for this stadium; they want to stick this stadium in Macedonia because the land is there and they can develop retail and all that unneeded crap around it. I don't support this because I don't support sprawl, especially when it comes dangerously close to the Cuyahoga Valley National Park.

 

You say "point is, there is an audience for soccer." How do we know that? Where is the research? You can't just say it works in Columbus, so it must work here. There could be any number of  factors at play there, including the city's lack of a other pro-sports franchises. There's no way all 15,000 fans at a Crew game are die-hard soccer fanatics. There very well could be a sizable percentage of casual fans and families looking for something fun to do with the family. Of course, I'm just guessing. I have no RESEARCH!

 

I like soccer. I play on a soccer team, but I don't like this project, and I don't like how MLS demands all teams play in "soccer stadiums," especially considering they are not a mainstream league. They should be happy any city wants their teams.

 

ALSO, read this story about the evolution of Crew Stadium from soccer to soccer/music in order to be sustainable. Do you really think this is feasible here considering Blossom is 10 minutes away? http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,14944.msg248055.html#msg248055

 

I believe the league demand for soccer specific stadiums was the smartest move they made. To experience 15,000 fans in Cleveland Stadium, or the horseshoe in C-bus would be awful. Instead, C-bus has a fantastic, intimate, and somewhat cheap stadium that lures all kinds of people back into the city on gamedays.

 

Cleveland (or Akron) leaders should've been working overtime to make sure this project happens within the city limits.

Its just tiring reading this board sometimes and its strong anti-suburbs overtone. 

 

Gee, I wonder why we have that overtone? Check the name of this website sometime! I hope you'll stick around and learn why we are generally anti-suburb. In basic, it's because public policies sought by the self-interested few promote the suburbs and its nauseating blandness at the expense of gritty, diverse and exciting urban areas. Perhaps you'll realize that urbanized areas are an organic being which can nurtured, sustained or, as we see in Ohio, eviscerated. That's especially true in most of Ohio's no- or low-growth metro areas where any growth typically must occur on clean and green land -- something that isn't available in mature communities. If you wish to discuss further, let's take it outside -- to the thread titled "Ahh, the sprawl of it all" in the City Discussion section.

 

Anyway, to bring this back to the subject at hand, I think downtown Cleveland or Akron could support professional soccer. I recall the success of the Cleveland Force indoor teams in the 1980s -- those were some great teams and crowds. However, I wonder if the desire to build a soccer stadium between Cleveland and Akron is intended to fall back on the success of the Force. Indoor soccer seemed to draw its greatest crowds when it was at the Richfield Coliseum. That might tie into the whole suburban soccer phenomenon among kids who are still in school. Maybe their moms can drive them to the stadium in their grocery-getting minivans and SUVs and sit amongst people who look just like them in their Wonder Bread world.

 

Friggin' suburbs...... 

Columbus does draw well.. however, it is also in a city without the major 3 leagues.  They have college football and NHL, but not one of the big three, let alone all 3.

 

In an area with as many problems as Cleveland has, I hardly see this as a priority.

 

I was at a wedding this summer in Chicago and was talking with someone who works for the Chicago MLS team, in the front office.  He told me that it's far from being absolute, even if a stadium is agreed upon, that Cleveland would get a franchise.  The MLS isn't stupid, they have done a great job at selecting locations that have a strong soccer base and the situation to support a team.

Because the vast majority of urban ohio posters feel suburbia is the root of all evil and unless you can take the RTA there, there's no reason for it existing.  They blame suburbanites for the downfall of the city rather than the people that still lived in it and screwed it up when growth protruded outward.

 

How do you even respond to such ignorance?

We also need to remember that the MLS and NHL are losing money and market share.

 

Name five, off the top of your head, without researching, MLS or NHL stars.  Not including, Beckham or Adu.

 

Country Club sports are now more popular than ever thanks to Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters and is projected to soon eclipse hockey. Soccer will always be a stepchild sport in America.

 

Lastly, NASCAR is also making a STRONG bid for the minority dollar and market.

^ True story, MTS. Adu is playing in Europe now, though.

^ True story, MTS. Adu is playing in Europe now, though.

 

I didn't know that.  But I don't follow MLS, nor did I research before posting.  So I guess I answered my own question.

As "central" as Macedonia may be (although I'm sure the soccer mom's in Bay/Westlake/Avon/Etc. would disagree, how can one not see how STUPID it is trying to create a destination in the MIDDLE OF NOWHERE when there are areas such as Cleveland proper with transportation/entertainment infrastructure already in place.  On a macro scale we've seen how Gateway has transformed part of downtown.  I think that a nice 20,000 seat stadium could do wonders for some parts of the city.  Not quite the scale of Wrigleyville but something along the same intimacy/character?  Corner of W25/Lorain would rock!  Knock down the plaza! RTA access, amenities, nearby Ignatius/CSU.  This would provoke a density in the neighborhood allowing it it explode-in a good way!

 

This isn't a matter of being strictly biased against suburbs but protesting the idea that Applebee's, Friday's, and Target in cooperation with a fricking retractable roof stadium way out in the boonies is what Cleveland needs to assert itself as a not dying city.  :roll:  Just b/c Dallas or Chicago who built their stadium in Naperville?did it doesn't mean we should.  Chicago has +/-11 million people in its metro with a large hispanic population out that way (not that that means anything) but in addition to plane jane suburbs with thousands of soccer moms, sure, filling a 15,000 seat stadium is peanuts.  I don't think our city is on life support but we can't be stupid either.  We've seen too many stupid moves in the past and we're still trying to fix those mistakes. 

 

 

but but but the Richfield Coliseum was placed so well that it is still thriving 35 years later!!  ;)

damn you got me there! :wink:  I'd rather see a makeover at Byers Field than Macedonia.

 

I wonder if Detroit wishes 22,000 people would come downtown 50+ games/year instead of going to Auburn Hills...Although would the same amount of people go downtown?  This isn't a low blow either.

To me, pro outdoor soccer in a "professional sports town" seems a bit risky for a downtown stadium.  If it doesn't work, look what your left with.  If anything, I would expand on Lakewood stadium to attract the socccer families in the western suburbs and see what happens.  Don't get me wrong, I am all for downtown development, but this may be one for the burbs in an existing stadium. 

I don't agree.

 

I say attach it CSU but not only add the MLS franchise, add:

• community leagues
  
• Workshops
  
• Soccer training
  
• Guest soccer speakers
  
• Conferences, seminars & speaking engagement based on soccer
  
• Bid for high school/college/national/international/tours & championship games
  
• Create a soccer tourney and carnival
  
• Go for an olympic training status.
  
• Spors medicine and research related to soccer and soccer injuries.
  

 

there are endless possibilities.

 

I think it'd be great for CSU to play there.  Also, if they ever get a football program they could play there.  It could also be the home field for some of the Cleveland private high schools.

but but but the Richfield Coliseum was placed so well that it is still thriving 35 years later!!  ;)

 

one of the most amazing things to happen in ne ohio was to level that arena and hand the land back to nature completely. now if only we could do that with about 20 sprawlburbs....  :evil:

I think it'd be great for CSU to play there.  Also, if they ever get a football program they could play there.  It could also be the home field for some of the Cleveland private high schools.

 

Would MLS allow that?

It's not up to the MLS.. it's the owner of the stadium who would decide.