^---LMAO! Chris, you crack me up! All those pics and that's the only question you have! :D

Hey, I was just wondering!

Damn....information overload!!!  So let me get this straigth...you drew up all those alternatives yourself, or are those proposed by some group (they look quite professional)?  Of the different schemes I like the 1st scheme the best....now I don't know any of the context, but by the site plan it looks to incorporate the big-box in the best possible way.

 

P.S. One of your plans had pedestrian walkways/shortcuts illustrated (red lines)...I found out a little while ago while working on a transportation plan that pedestrian routes are typically done in a blue color...red for vehicular.  It reads better with the eye (red...more abrasive like cars, blue...more friendly like people)  :-D

Your plans are soooooo much better than what is proposed. Since the City of Dayton is involved in this development, I don't understand why they aren't forcing Kroger to develop a more urban approach to the design...especially since they did it in Louisville.

 

Let's hope the city gets it act together with Ballpark Village!

Your plans are soooooo much better than what is proposed. Since the City of Dayton is involved in this development, I don't understand why they aren't forcing Kroger to develop a more urban approach to the design...especially since they did it in Louisville.

 

Yeah, that there is a precedent here with Kroger is interesting. 

 

I think John Gower is still the planning director of Dayton, and I know he is aware of all this new thinking on urban developement as he used to run that Living City project (inspired by one of Holly Whytes books) as a sort of storefront studio at 5th & Ludlow.  So it is puzzling why there is not a push by the planning dept. for somehting better from the developer.  Maybe those streetside retail pads in the site plan are the concession to a contextual approach.

 

 

 

 

excellent thread.

 

did you do those renderings or did you get them from somewhere?

 

why ask kroger to go halfway like that louisville example? why not go all out and push for a true urban design with some office or residential above the grocery? i wonder if if some developer was interested in doing that maybe kroger would go for it?

I forwarded the link to this thread to someone who is relevant in this matter. Maybe it will make a difference.

 

Your point in making the view from the blvd of Park Dr. better is being over looked and should be considered. Thank you, Jeffrey. Outstanding work here.

^

Hopefully they will reconsider the site planning, esp since there are real-world examples of a better way..the ones from Lousiville, and also from Dayton, if one considers the new retail on Brown Street near UD.

 

did you do those renderings or did you get them from somewhere?

 

why ask kroger to go halfway like that louisville example? why not go all out and push for a true urban design with some office or residential above the grocery? i wonder if if some developer was interested in doing that maybe kroger would go for it?

 

Oh heck , these are just powerpoint diagrams, not really renderings.  I was just playing around with different approaches. 

 

Residential above a big-box supermarket?  That would be tough especially there will need to be a signifigant increase in the loading on the roof and structural members...bar joists and a metal deck is probably too light-construction.  And then there are fire code issues in terms of exiting and seperation for different uses.  I figure what Kroger did in Louisville would be about the limit for contextual infill, unless there is a high-property value situation that would make the more elaborate construction to provide true mixed-use feasible.  I can see that in Manhattan, but in a mid-sized city, even in a desirable location like Bardstown Road, that would be too expensive.

 

(though I have seen mixed use like you suggest,  just not with a large floorplate retail operation like Kroger).

 

@@@@@@

 

In the graphics upthread I postulated about residential infill to screen the parking lot and shopping areas.  Here is what i was thinking of, real-world examples from the most underreported story in Dayton...the incremental reconstruction of West Dayton via affordable housing that actually is doing a good job of "fitting-in", working within the local residential vernacular in most cases.

 

Wolf Creek neighborhood in the inner west area

 

 

And these two, juxtaposing 19th century vernacular examples from Wayne & Wyoming with some pretty good examples of new construction working within the local vernacular, in the Edgemont neighborhood.

 

 

 

...this is the type of housing I'd propose going in on the edges of the parking area, as it would "fit in" with the surrounding neighborhood to some degree, and can be fit on those smaller lots.

 

 

I would like to know the site utilty constraints as the site appears to be cleared of the street system and thus any water and sewer lines in the area would be capped an abandoned. 

 

The following diagrams shows the current streets and alleys in black, and then hunch as to where the site utlities are (presuming there is natural gas lines here , too somewhere).  I am guessing that these are running down the streets, not the alleys, with the exception of Lathrop, as that alley has houses on it, so are being fed from a main somewhere.

 

I also think there might be a storm sewer that runs down that alley that alings with Park, as it shows up on 19th century maps as an open ditch and could be now in a pipe.

 

 

Looking at the proposed site of the Kroger it is sitting on some of the site utilties, assuming they do run down the streets, and then at one of my revised sitings.

 

 

On one of my schematics I had the Kroger pulled to the Wyoming side of the site.  It seems this would be conflicting just as much with the current lines that are running on the site as the existing proposal.  In any case, is the practice to leave exsiting utility runs in place when you clear a site like this?  Under a parking lot?

 

Or is there something really major running through here thats not obvious or not residential water/sewer/gas service?

 

 

 

 

Okay, a post was deleted here...

Our View: Kroger bet good for city, neighborhood

By Dayton Daily News

Sunday, January 14, 2007

 

The goal of getting a big, fancy new Kroger and other stores near the Wayne Avenue/Wyoming Street intersection in Dayton is good for more reasons than one.

 

You needn't be a starry-eyed dreamer to see that the neighborhood can be more than it is, given its convenience, its location near much middle-class housing and the amount of car traffic, carrying both city dwellers and suburbanites. The old residential neighborhood northeast of the intersection — part of a section now officially and defensibly designated "blighted" — has promise.

 

...

 

Another View: Midland, Dayton need to listen to residents

Sunday, January 14, 2007

 

This commentary was written by Pam Miller Howard, a real estate agent and 25-year resident of South Park Historic District. She is a board member of Preservation Dayton, Inc. E-mail her at [email protected].

 

When people move to close-in city neighborhoods, one of their first questions is, "Where do you grocery shop?" There hasn't been a good answer.

 

The proposed Kroger redevelopment at Wayne Avenue and Wyoming Street may offer a positive option. However, redevelopment in an urban area presents both opportunities and special challenges.

 

...

 

this was posted on the Esrati blog, which is becoming a good source for Dayton urban affairs info and discussion, though there are just a few folks participating.  I thought it was interesting about the Kroger sources comments about the city maybe dropping the ball, though that might be a good thing from a neighborhood conservation/historic preservation perspective

 

 

Dear Neighbors,

 

The proposed Krogers at Wayne and Wyoming is in jeopardy . City officials and Krogers are looking for alternative sites due to a funding deficit. Neighborhood leaders from Twin Towers, Walnut Hills, St. Anne’s Hill, South Park, Huffman, Oregon, Downtown, and Grafton met last week to discuss combining forces to make this development happen at Wayne/Wyoming. A joint letter was written and delivered to City Hall yesterday (Thursday), offering innovative solutions to bridge the financing gap and stressing the importance of locating the Krogers at Wayne and Wyoming. A Krogers source indicated earlier this week that they don’t believe the project is a City priority or has the City’s focus at this time and that they (Krogers) would like a new store for this under-stored market but its tough to do without the City’s backing. The City needs to be convinced of the importance of keeping the project at Wayne/Wyoming. All the neighborhoods cited above will be working toward that end in the coming days.

 

Your help is needed immediately in this effort to convince the City to go to bat for this development. Please plan to attend the City Commission meeting this Wednesday (Aug. 1), beginning at 6pm at City Hall at 101 W. Third St. downtown. Also, please send an email to the City Commission and City Manager voicing the importance of locating the Krogers at Wayne and Wyoming. Relevant email addresses are:

 

[email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , [email protected] , Rashad Young [email protected]

 

If you have any questions on the details surrounding the situation, feel free to call me at 461-3534. I have very limited email access right now, so telephone is the best way to reach me.

 

Regards,

 

Karin Manovich

 

Esrati replied to some remarks I made, and found this interesting:

 

"...While SP suggested a Sidewalk touching building- much like DLM in Oakwood- Kroger is insisting in a huge setback- with frickin out-buildings- and the Ecki building must go. SP hasn’t pushed hard for this- instead worrying that laying down rules- won’t work.

Most of the movement on this has been done behind closed doors.

..."

'Promises made. Promises broken.' Development teases a neighborhood

Residents wait while Kroger, city discuss a $16M supermarket that could transform Twin Towers

BY JOANNE HUIST SMITH | DAYTON DAILY NEWS

August 5, 2007

 

DAYTON — Twin Towers resident Roberta Grippon was nine months pregnant with her son Dylan when she first heard Kroger was considering replacing its small store on Wayne Avenue.

 

Dylan turned 14 in April, and the Grippon family is still holding on to hope the store will be built. "This wouldn't be just another store in our neighborhood. This is a store that could change our neighborhood," Grippon said.

 

...

Kroger proposal depends on city's ability to buy properties

Funding to buy 89 properties will come from public and private sources.

By Joanne Huist Smith

Staff Writer

Thursday, January 24, 2008

 

DAYTON — A proposal to build a $16 million Kroger store at the corner of Wayne Avenue and Wyoming Street now rests on whether the city of Dayton can secure options to buy 89 properties on the 12 acre project site.

 

The city completed appraisals on each of the properties last month. On Wednesday, the Dayton City Commission hired O.R. Colan Associates of Florida, LLC to negotiate with property owners.

 

...

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/01/24/ddn012408citcom.html

press release, Kroger has pulled out of the project (and rumor has it that they are closing their Wayne store altogether) 

 

  City Announces New Strategy for Wayne & Wyoming Redevelopment Project

 

    Release Date:  Friday, December12, 2008

 

    Contact:          Shelley Dickstein, Assistant City Manager, 333-3636

    Amy Walbridge, Special Projects Administrator, 333-3813

    Keith Klein, Senior Development Specialist, 333-3812

 

    Officials from the City of Dayton today announced that the Wayne & Wyoming Project will not be moving forward as previously planned, but a new redevelopment strategy will be created. Dayton City Manager Rashad Young has sent letters to more than 60 property owners within the project area near the Wayne Avenue and Wyoming Street intersection to inform them of changes to a proposed redevelopment project originally sought by the Kroger Company.

 

    According to Young, officials from The Kroger Company revealed earlier this month that the company had decided not to build a new 76,000 square foot store at the northeast corner of the intersection due to the declining economy and their latest market projections.

 

    In November, 2007, the City had announced plans to work in partnership with the Midland Atlantic development company and The Kroger Company to assemble the 12.25-acre site needed to replace the current Wayne Avenue store with a larger facility at the corner of Wayne & Wyoming Streets.  In March, 2008, the City began contacting property owners to negotiate purchase prices for their respective properties.

 

    According to Shelley Dickstein, Assistant City Manager for Strategic Development, the City successfully acquired control of all but two of the properties in the project area by obtaining signed Option Agreements and acquiring eight foreclosed properties.  The City also made substantial financial commitments and offered significant incentives to facilitate the project.

 

    Dickstein stated, “The community did everything we asked of them, and the City has done everything that we could to facilitate this project.

    We are committed to helping this neighborhood and we will continue our efforts to redevelop the area.”

 

    In response to the decision by The Kroger Company, the City is creating a “Plan B” strategy for addressing the redevelopment of the Wayne & Wyoming area, in order to address some of the issues within the Twin Towers neighborhood.  As a first step, the foreclosed properties acquired by the City are now being demolished.

 

    Young emphasized that the City is still considering other options for redeveloping the area.  The City will be meeting privately with impacted property owners later this month to discuss next steps. City staff are also planning a public meeting that will take place in January, 2009 to provide further details of the new strategy.  The City will seek approval from participating property owners to enter into a new Option Agreement that will carry through December 31, 2009.  The additional time will allow the City to explore every possible redevelopment opportunity for the site.

 

    Young said, “While we are very disappointed in Kroger’s decision, it is the City’s intention to continue working on behalf of the affected property owners to find alternative solutions to the issues facing the neighborhood. It is unfortunate that the real victims in this situation are the citizens who are eager for a first-class development for their community.”