The problem with this concept is that the proportions are awkward, the facade looks dated and in cases mishmashed together. The homage to Louisville's bridge trusses looks like a bizarre afterthought that reminds me of the art college in Toronto that has similar support features. The base is basically the proposed OMA tower for Beijing, and they plunked an overhanging cube and two typical towers on top of that. What do artists turn to when they've run out of truly inspired ideas? They go to innovation for innovations sake - and if that is the only thing going for a project that will involve 703 feet, and $380 million in costs, I hardly think that qualifies as a successful design.

 

"anything that has this many people discussing it is an automatic sign of extended interest, making it a success."

 

Riiiiight. If that's true, I present:

This sounds like it's going to go the way of the millenium tower in newport. It had all the investers lined up. But they somehow couldn't get it done.

 

If this were closer to the CBD it wouldn't look as bad. But being where it's going it be located, it looks simply out of place.

Yay Louisville! Here's to your "forward-thinking" architectural jauggernaut that will propell you to the far off year of 1977!

 

well what year was Cincinnati's tallest built? 1931! When people come to Cincinnati do they say....this place looks so 1931? But anyway, how does this museum plaza  look like anything from 1977? Its never been done before, its unique, and one of a kind. You can say it looks like something from 1977 all you want, but the bottom line it will be complete in 2010 :)

 

The difference is that art deco and/or 30's architecture is generally very detailed and beautiful, unlike the utilitarian 70's. I'd love for people to come to Cincy and say it looks like 1931. Whenever I am in Louisville, I'm always so impressed by their history; some historic structures just blow me away. I will never, EVER, be excited about something like this. You can say it is built in 2010 all you want, but if it looks like the 70's, it looks like the 70's. UGLY.

 

 

bizbiz - The problem is its just ugly. Any thoughts on why you've never seen anything like this before?

 

 

Build it in Jeffersonville!

^Janet Reno has made the Chicago Tribune also, that doesn't make her pretty.

^Janet Reno has made the Chicago Tribune also, that doesn't make her pretty.

 

wow, you're better than Dave Chappele..... :clap:

^I was hoping for Letterman. :-(

MayDay, awesome post.  I especially liked this line "What do artists turn to when they've run out of truly inspired ideas? They go to innovation for innovations sake"  I think that it is especially relevant to architecture, which is afterall a "practical art" that everybody, not just the client, has to live with.

 

My main problem with the building isn't the building itself, but how it fits into the context.  If this building was being put into Le Corbusier's Radiant City or Frank Lloyd Wright's Broadacre City (ie completely atomized, "contextless" cities where nothing comes near anything else)  Then I would chalk it up to an interesting, if maybe not beautiful, design.

 

But as a part of a larger city, I am worried that it will have very adverse impacts on the scale and livability of the surrounding neighborhood.

Then you obviously don't know anything about the neighborhoods in downtown Louisville

 

a new picture of the model

So what color is it going to be?

from the rendering in the first post of this thread its solid black.

Hang in there Drake. Most people on this forum prefer buildings that were preserved or restored from the civil war era. Modern is four letter word here. ;-)

 

Personally, I could only dream of a building like this was built on Broadway Commons in Cincy. But there would be howls of protests. So we get surface lots.

"an article from the Cincinnati post...what do they have to say about it?"

 

Pretty much the same thing that the Business Journal said. It's hardly an endorsement.  :roll:

 

"Most people on this forum prefer buildings that were preserved or restored from the civil war era."

 

How do you suppose that? I think Koolhaas' design for the campus at IIT is brilliant. I think the Calatrava design for 80 South Street in NYC is absolutely breathtaking as are the proposals from Renzo Piano for the London Bridge Tower and Richard Rogers for the Leadenhall Building in London. I can appreciate the "haphazard" approach that Ian Simpson applied to the Beetham Tower in Manchester, UK. Do any those remotely resemble any kind of historicist aesthetic? 

well i didn't say it was an endorsement, i'm just happy to see some article about it. :wave:

Does anyone think if this is built, other cities would follow"we can do better"? In the old days skyscrapers was for showing off. Bigger is better. I think alot of our cities have gotten away from that. Now it's either put up or shut up. If this is built. I can see other peer cities doing the same, just not that design though..lol

^Janet Reno has made the Chicago Tribune also, that doesn't make her pretty.

 

Now that is the funniest thing I've heard all day! :lol:

she may be ugly, but she has alot of power.

Then you obviously don't know anything about the neighborhoods in downtown Louisville

 

Well then, what should I know?

that area lacked any residential units for years. adding more condos, and hotels will do nothing to hurt it.

You can't tell me this building doesn't look like Voltron!

 

You can't tell me this building doesn't look like Voltron!

 

 

 

don't see it....

 

a new picture of the model

 

Hey, isn't that Janet Reno checking out the model?  Imagine how fast this'll make the Tribune!! 

 

;)

 

Modern is four letter word here. ;-)

Well, "ugly" is a four-letter word...

It's amazing how overwhelming negative this building has be received. As someone earlier posted, I wonder if all these negative comments would be made if an Ohio city was receiving this gem. It looks to be filling a space that was empty before, underground parking, green space open to the public, the ultimate in mix use - museum, condos, hotel, and offices. Maybe they will add a Check n Go for that gritty feel. This building should be every one's wet dream.

It's amazing how overwhelming negative this building has be received. As someone earlier posted, I wonder if all these negative comments would be made if an Ohio city was receiving this gem. It looks to be filling a space that was empty before, underground parking, green space open to the public, the ultimate in mix use - museum, condos, hotel, and offices. Maybe they will add a Check n Go for that gritty feel. This building should be every one's wet dream.

 

yeah, the hate is contagious...once one person does it, everyone else has to...well almost everyone :)

5 pages of posts.  Wow.

 

People where talking about the site & context.

 

Here are some pix and diagram of the site context.

 

The site, outlined in red.  Ohio River and I-64 directly to the north, Main Street historic district to the south  Most of this is parking lots and roadways.

 

 

The site with some key attractions and features labled.  Note that a floodwall seperates the site from Main Street, which has  concentration of museums (and also is a bit of an art gallery district and will be getting a new hotel, designed by Deborah Berke...quite a contrast to OMA!)

 

 

Cross section of the site.  Note that flooding issues have a strong effect on what can be done with the riverfront in Louisville...which is why this area is somewhat underdeveloped.  Also. the elevated interstate and River road act as barrier between the site and the river.

 

 

 

...and example of high water, showing how floodgates & the floodwall protect the city, but puts the site at risk for flood damage  (the red circle is the location of the pix)

 

 

The solution to the flood issue was to raise most of the riverfront structures on bases of parking garages, which means the river is difficult to reach...the first attempt at riverfront developement put a park and plaza on top of the parking garage, and the interstate, which gave a good view to the river, but no acces (they later built a stair and walkway).

 

 

 

So this site is particularly difficult .  It is not amenable to some sort of new-urbanist development, and its somewhat seperated from Main Street, too, due to being on the "wrong side" of the floodwall.

 

 

Yet the renderings so far dont give me much of a clue as to how it is going to be developed. 

 

As for the building.  It does look like someone took a bunch of Seagram buildings or IBM buildings and sliced, diced, and jumbled them up...I don't understand what is driving the form here and the curtain wall is pretty banal, though I appreicate this is not a conventional skyscraper, as a conventional or deco-revival building  (like the Aegeon tower) would not work on this site.

 

And that 20th floor museum and diagonal elevator tube is pretty audacious.

 

The museum-level trusswork reminds me maybe more of Craig Ellwood than the river bridges...

 

 

 

 

Incidentally the last highrised proposed for this site was also an exercise in dramatic form-making, sort of a curtain wall spiral structure by a "name" designer (dont recall the company..it was a Humana spin-off...or the designer).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the vencor tower was supposed to go in this location 7 years ago..... Which tells me the area is suitable for a high rise skyscraper. It didn't go through because Vencor went bankrupt....I doubt Brown-Foreman will go bankrupt anytime soon..so i'm confident museum plaza will go through with no major issues.

 

here is the vencor tower

 

well someone posted this to see how it would look if they built it closer to the other buildings

 

 

and what if they built two lol

 

 

but that would never happend because it would crush the Muhammad Ali center haha

more than form it is unusual for something like that to go up in a place like louisville. talk about unnessesary hubris, but hey good for them if they get it built. heck i'd like to check it out, that diagonal escalator has my interest.

 

to compare this to ohio when it is built the skyline will be toledo-like with a big odd thumb sticking out there. this will surely grab attention -- if the vencor tower above would have been built noone outside the city would have cared.

i just can't wait to see the view after it is built from the south side of Louisville...forget from across the river, i want to go to Churchill downs and see how this baby looks from there.

I love it. I will be there when it opens.

O.K. O.K.

I watched the video again.

I could kinda tell how it might grow on you.

This thing will look 100% better at night, so maybe they could put a huge bag over it during the daytime.

If the vertical section in the middle displays designs like they had in the video, then that does make it pretty interesting.

I just can't get past the big CUBE that hangs over the side, it makes the whole thing ugly to me.

So when they have the lights on at night, maybe they could leave the lights OFF in the big CUBE. :clap:

Coming Sunday: The story behind Museum Plaza

 

 

For many Louisvillians, the vision of a towering Museum Plaza seemed to fall out of the sky this week.

 

But there was nothing sudden about the design of Louisville’s first skyscraper since 1993 — or about the choice of the world-renowned architects to design it.

 

Museum Plaza investors Steve Wilson, Laura Lee Brown and Steve Poe devoted 10 months of long days to the project. They jetted across Europe and the United States, interviewing architectural firms and visiting museums to gather ideas.

 

Throughout the process, they focused on two things: Achieving a blockbuster design — and having the financial will to see their dream built.

 

Staff reporter Chris Poynter was the only journalist allowed to observe the creative process behind the new skyscraper.

 

Read his full report Sunday in The Courier-Journal Arts section and at courier-journal.com.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?NoCache=1&Dato=20060210&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=60210021&Ref=AR

 

Quote from: CMH_Downtown on Yesterday at 11:24:52 pm

 

 

Yay Louisville! Here's to your "forward-thinking" architectural jauggernaut that will propell you to the far off year of 1977!

 

 

well what year was Cincinnati's tallest built? 1931! When people come to Cincinnati do they say....this place looks so 1931? But anyway, how does this museum plaza  look like anything from 1977? Its never been done before, its unique, and one of a kind. You can say it looks like something from 1977 all you want, but the bottom line it will be complete in 2010

 

Oh lord...1977 was when the Renaissance Center was built. I wouldn't have thought that would need explaining, but, well, here we are.

 

Like I said before, this is NOT NEW! We have a shining example of how *cough* "wonderful" *hack* such a monstrous, mixed-use project can be up in the Motor City. History is bound to repeat itself, who would've thought it would be in Louisville...

 

Oh and also, Cincinnati's tallest has TIMELESS beauty. That proposed thing in Louisville wouldn't know beauty if it smacked it in the proverbial face.

here are some aerials of the site

 

 

 

i said it was supposed to be solid black in another post...i dont know...this model looks glass..kind of transparent...but then again, that could just be the model...in the rendering on page one it is black.

 

 

 

In this slide, Joshua Prince-Ramus shows an illustration of the interior of the museum space in the building. Construction is scheduled to begin in 2007 and be completed in 2010.

 

 

I dont know if anyone else has comented on this or not....but in the video it shows what might be a 3 or 4 story video board?!?!?!?  Who in there right mind would put a giant scoreboard of sorts on a bldg. like that.  You would have to look straigt up to see it or be a mile away.  This doesnt make much sense to me.

 

In addition....this is an exact replica of the RenCen concepts of mixed use.  I'm sure that the New Urbanists of the world and those who envision mixed-use, walkable communities do not envision this.  This is a urban version of 'big box' development. :x

i guess they wanted to give it a times sqaure type of feal....if so, of course people will be drawn to the area if thats what it is...but i'm not even sure if thats a t.v. screen across there. thats the plaza section though.

the architect originally wanted to go higher than 700 ft, but they couldnt because the FAA prohibited it. This site is in the flight path of the west runway of Standiford Field/Louisville Int'l airport.

I don't like the Seattle Public Library either.  In person it isn't nearly so light looking.  It looks like a giant cage.  Or a prison.  For what should be the most welcoming institution in the city- its library.

 

Rem Koolhas is the poster child for what is wrong with "starchitecture".  His buildings pay no attention to the context in which they are placed.  They pay no attention to the quality of the environment that they create for those that will be in and around the building.  It is all about his ego, and making something outrageous just for the hell of it- and people pay big money for that.

 

From the renderings shown, it looks like there is some "context" to the North of the project.  But they don't really show any of that very well, so it's hard for me to know.

 

 

I disagree ... the Seattle Public Library is a fascinating building, and I like how it shocks its context a little.  Beyond that, walking through it last summer almost felt like a religious experience.  The interior design was stunning, and made me forget any small reservations that I had about the outside design.  I'd take it in Cleveland in a heartbeat.  My ONLY hope for this Louisville project (well, beyone going back to the drawing board) is that its interiors may be awe-inspiring.

 

I think Museum Plaza, simply said, lacks grace.  I find it overly jumbled for the sake of being jumbled.  It reminds me very much of one of the rejected World Trade Center replacements:

 

 

 

 

^aah yes thats where ive seen it before, thanks for pulling that up paul. it does look like an inspiration. otoh, as for the spl, seattle can keep it, no thx.

 

and drake thank you for those annotated aerials, i havent been in louisville since the late 80's so that helped me place it better -- quite a bit better.

from emporis

Identification 

Official name Museum Plaza

Emporis Building Number 241741

 

Location 

Address *

City Louisville

Country U.S.A.

 

Technical Data 

Height (struct.) 214 m 703 ft

Floors (OG) 61

Construction start *

Construction end 2010

GFA * 

Parking places *

Units (rooms) *

Costs at completion *

 

 

Building in General 

Type of construction high-rise building

Main usages *

*

*

*

 

 

 

 

" First proposed in the summer 2005 at 26 floors, the proposal grew to 61 floors by the time of the design's public unveiling in February 2006. 

- The building features four separate 'legs' which are united by a multilevel arts center 'island' holding an acre-sized public garden 22 floors above the ground. 

- A large cube and two additional towers will sit atop the middle section, forming a unique, multi-peaked silhouette. 

- In addition to the arts center 'island', the building will contain 300,000 square feet of commercial office space, 150 condominiums, 85 residential lofts, and 300 hotel rooms. 

- Each of the 'legs' and towers rising above will have a different function. 

- Two of the legs will contain primarily vertical circulation elements. One is a simple elevator shaft, the other is an angled shaft containing glass elevators rising from a 7th Street plaza to the Arts Center. 

- The building will become the tallest in Kentucky, surpassing the Aegon Center. 

- Joshua Prince-Ramus of the New York office of OMA is the chief architect. 

 

 

"Note that a floodwall seperates the site from Main Street, which has  concentration of museums "-Jeff

 

Ah, OK.  I guess that answers my biggest objection, then.  If the floodwall (and floodstage) means that the site cannot effectively be made an extension of the Main Street District, then I suppose that what they do at ground level isn't that important afterall.

I went and saw the exhibit today. It is AWESOME. I blame it on the Courier-Journal for misinforming EVERYONE. What a terrible paper. In fact, it didnt even give the buildings location until the second page of the article!!!!!

 

I am also known as Gych on SSC and ppassafi on SSP.  I am known for trolling on boards and my anti Ohio antics.  Because of my past history on other message boards and that fact that I can't play well with others I have to go in timeout and put my nose in the corner.  Timeout will give me the time to think about all the moronic things I have said in the past.  I will stop trying to compare my little city of Louisville with larger cities like Dayton, Toledo and Covington. I think Ohio is a great state and one day I hope to move there so I can see what I have been missing.

The building looks like Kentucky's tribute to it's southern heritage.  Kinda like "Slavery Jenga."

I'm sorry ul2009 but the bldg. is not integrated into the urban form.  It doesnt matter what you say it will not convince me or anyone else who agrees with my basic concepts.  Any bldg. of this magnitude in a city of Louisville's size is an urban 'big box' development.  It seems like an advanced attempt at building a tourist attraction (something Louisville is sorely lacking).  If that is the case stick with it, but please do not try to tell me that it works with the urban fabric.  A wise woman once said "dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining."  :lol:

If that is the case stick with it, but please do not try to tell me that it works with the urban fabric.  A wise woman once said "dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining."   :lol:

 

yeah yeah yeah...........

I went and saw the exhibit today. It is AWESOME. I blame it on the Courier-Journal for misinforming EVERYONE. What a terrible paper. In fact, it didnt even give the buildings location until the second page of the article!!!!!

 

This project WILL HAVE STREET LEVEL RETAIL!! They are taking what amounts to a half a block of vacant buildings on West Main St and rehabbing them (they are among the last vacant bldgs on West Main by the way). The 4 buildings combined will serve as a long "hallway" of retail, some of which (for a half a block) should be visible from the street. As you get to the back of the building, it will be the elevator to Museum Plaza, which will take you in an angled path over a street which is ACTUALLY an alley and up into Museum Plaza. This alley is Washington St, an old st that abuts the back of the Cast Irons on main. Within 50 feet you have the elevated I-64. So, this area will NEVER be a "street level" kind of place--its an alley for heaven's sake! The "street level" in this part of downtown is Main St.

 

Many of you are just confused about this building. Once again, not your fault--blame it on the paper. Think of the base of this building as a chair on a platform. The platform is the parking garage which will be mostly built underground and then some above ground. Despite them moving the flood wall to protect this building, it is still in the river flood plain and must be elevated for this reason. We have had a Katrina type flood here and cant risk it again (Google 1937 Louisville Flood!).

 

Now, back to the chair analogy. The four legs of the chair will be-- 1) upscale hotel (I hope they go for Conrad or Ritz) 2) Lofts 3) Luxury Condos. 4) Elevator "shaft." Each of the 3 buildings besides the elevator will have retail in the ground floor. For the Loft leg, they plan a coffee shop, small grocery, and dry cleaners. The hotel leg floor will obv be a lobby. The floor of the condo leg is going to be restuarant/retail TBA. All this will be accesible from the "street," which as I said is actually an alley abutted by an X-way. Now, the "seat" of the chair will be the one acre public plaza 22 floors from ground. The "seat" will actually be 4 floors itself. The 1st floor will be some sort of retail TBA (this is the one part of the project I dont like bc its sort of an elevated "mini mall." But the space wont really be that large on 1 floor, so Id maybe expect a few gallerys and maybe a couple places to buy a shirt. The 2nd floor will be the main floor with the art gallery, a swimming pool, and a "sky" restaurant/lounge for the hotel that will be accesible via this public plaza. The 3rd and 4th Floors of the "seat" will be for the U of L Master Fine Arts Program. Finally, we are to the "back support" part of the chair. On top of the seat will rest 3 structures. One will be offices, and the other two will be luxury condos.

 

Either you guys are unfamiliar with Louisville, or unfamiliar with this project. They are, for all practical purposes, building this thing in an ALLEY BEHIND the historic West Main cultural and museum district. There is NO WAY to integrate this thing with the street other than what they are doing--connecting it to West Main Street via retail in some of the old Cast Irons.

 

did you take pictures of the exhibit, do they let you? wow was it different from the rendering on page one? was there strong support for it there?

^Atleast you're a good sport :).

 

To be fair and honest, Louisville IS now the subject of something, in which the city can be proud of (as putting criticism, good and bad, in the city's limelight).  A project like this has awoke people up about Louisville and Kentucky in general.  Regardless if you like the tower or not, it's something that people in the architectural field are talking about.  So good for Louisville, in that sense.

Yes, all you have to do is type "Louisville skyscraper" or "louisville museum plaza " in google and a bunch of stuff pops up about this new tower.