Hehehehehehehe bozo heheheheheheehehe!

Waterfront Park in downtown Louisville has been named one of the nation's top 10 urban parks by the Urban Land Institute.

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2006/10/30/daily23.html?surround=lfn

 

I am not doubting Louisville's park system...or their waterfront parks.  I am doubting the fact that throwing a plaza/park/whatever the hell it is around a massive bldg, that has it's main focus 200 feet above street level, will automatically mean that it will be ped. friendly and create a vibrant urban environment...I feel that it will actually have the opposite effect.

Waterfront Park in downtown Louisville has been named one of the nation's top 10 urban parks by the Urban Land Institute.

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2006/10/30/daily23.html?surround=lfn

 

Well, if you actually read the article, it talks about the development AROUND the park moreso than the park itself.  Secondly, ANY article even mentioning a chess park in Glendale, California as a Top 10 "Urban" Park is beyond credible.

Refer to an Admin as "bozo" (or any other derogatory name) and you and this thread will be gone.

(bring out the Maleficent skyline shot)

 

But on a serious note, I (nor anyone in this thread) personally bashed anyone (the building, sure, Kentucky, sure, but people on this forum...no) so I expect the same from others.

I think it says alot that Louisville actually has the demand for this magnitude of a structure.  Says alot for the economy of the region along with vibrancy.  No where in Ohio are we seeing work like this, and I wish we were.  Despite what it may look like (and renderings are way off sometimes) good for Louisville. 

 

A bit suprising to me, too...though the Kentucky Derby brings in a lot of visitors, thats just one day, or one week, if one counts the festivities around it..t.but apparently there is a convention buisiness that brings people in, and the state fair (though fairgoers are not going to be staying here).  The hotel part will be the easiest to market, Ill bet.  My question is who the corporate tenant is going to be, if any?

 

The thing that I like about this is that Louisville is getting another art museum..particularly one geared to exhibiting contemporary/modernism.  This means three good modern art kunsthalle the region...Wexner, CAC, and now this one.

 

Yet therin is a bit of program issue...the art museum is going to be a in a big glass box...so does come for the art and stay for the view, or vice versa. It seems this sweeping panorama laid out before one would be a bit, shall we say, distracting from what's being exhibited?

 

 

 

 

 

 

...will automatically mean that it will be ped. friendly and create a vibrant urban environment...I feel that it will actually have the opposite effect.

 

The question is how they will get people from the parking garage to the museum piece.  If the concept is to conduct pedestrian traffic on to Main Street it could activate Main Street more. 

 

From what Ive seen it seems the parking in the plinth directly under the towers is going to be for tenants or hotel guests, so this project could be pretty good for generating foot traffic on Main...one parks in the garage to the west, or elsehwere downtown, and walks down city streets. 

 

The plaza concept is not that well developed, though it could be one of the better parts of the design.  People wont be using the plaza to get to the Museum part as the angled escalator will take them up there..but it works more as a connector to the Ali Center and the Riverfront Plaza (if they build the bridge across across 6th Street).

 

 

I've been to Louisville twice before, and in my mind...thats 2 times too many!!!  I do not enjoy the place in one way shape or form (kentucky aside). 

 

Wasn't it you who was making the negative comments about rural Kentucky in that thread on Owenton?  Or was that someone else?

 

 

^It is an interesting statement, especially becuase Lousiville and Cincinnati seem to have many similarities.

Refer to an Admin as "bozo" (or any other derogatory name) and you and this thread will be gone.

 

ahh...the internet, i forgot.

Refer to an Admin as "bozo" (or any other derogatory name) and you and this thread will be gone.

 

Itchy trigger finger, eh?

 

 

No, a zero-tolerance policy for bullsh!t from people who have already been warned. I think most people appreciate the fact that this forum isn't inundated with trolls. When you've been an admin and/or mod on forums like this and SSP as long as I have, then you can tell me that I'm being harsh and have an itchy trigger finger.

well how about this tidbit...i am currently watching "modern marvels" on the history channel and the subject is he walt disney concert hall in Los Angeles.....did you guys know that the same construction managers that built the walt disney concert hall will be in charge of Museum plaza? just a bit of trivia type info lol...most of you probably don't care because after all it is "louisville" we are talking about and MP is "ugly"...but oh well...

http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2006/04/17/daily31.html

 

oh and did i also mention that a new basketball arena will be finishing up around the same time MP will be getting finished? so not only will MP and the ALi center feed each other, but the new arena will also attract folks to MP.

 

the arena has already been approved and construction will start soon

 

 

that waterfront will be totally different in about 3 years

 

 

why am i so excited?...well, because this is the tallest skyscraper under contruction in the Ohio Valley

^

Given the complexities of this job I can see them using Gehrys CMs.  I see the structurals have worked with OMA before:

 

Magnusson Klemencic Associates, which formerly collaborated with the OMA team on the striking Seattle Central Library project, will serve as structural and civil engineers. The company is located in Seattle.

 

Hope they have high rise experience.  If they are from Seattle they are familiar with seismic stuff, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wasn't it you who was making the negative comments about rural Kentucky in that thread on Owenton?  Or was that someone else?

 

Yes it was me.  I was making a statement that even though I have an obvious dislike for the state I was putting that aside and saying that I would dislike this bldg regardless of where it was located.

 

why am i so excited?...well' date=' because this is the tallest skyscraper under contruction in the Ohio Valley[/quote']

 

Not soo fast...didn't we clear up the fact that site prep does not equal ground breaking.

well they wouldn't be doing it if they thaught the building wasn't going to be built...i know you think they are hillbilly, slow, powdunk kentuckians, but jeez...they aren't that stupid. thats a lot of money, and a lot of land to be wasting. and the article says that the developers are going to have major announcements within the coming months...trust me, its going up.

^At the risk of running this thread completely off the rails, I'm curious to hear from UncleRando why he has such a dislike for Kentucky.

 

as far as i know, louisville is one of the best in the country when it comes to building waterfront parks.....have you seen their waterfront lately? i think it has one just about every award.

 

as far as you know, indeed. be glad hudson river park in manhattan technically isn't complete yet - lol! nor the cleveland lakefront plan for that matter (hey, if you can post about renderings as if its a fact they will actually be built i can post about clev's waterfront plans too).

 

read on and learn yourself:

 

http://www.hudsonriverpark.org/development/index.htm

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/lakefront/cpc.html

 

thats enough for now...dont make me drag the "new" coney island plans into this!  :laugh:

 

 

 

as far as i know, louisville is one of the best in the country when it comes to building waterfront parks.....have you seen their waterfront lately? i think it has one just about every award.

 

as far as you know, indeed. be glad hudson river park in manhattan technically isn't complete yet - lol! nor the cleveland lakefront plan for that matter (hey, if you can post about renderings as if its a fact they will actually be built i can post about clev's waterfront plans too).

 

read on and learn yourself:

 

http://www.hudsonriverpark.org/development/index.htm

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/lakefront/cpc.html

 

thats enough for now...dont make me drag the "new" coney island plans into this!  :laugh:

 

 

 

so you're saying LWFP can't compete?

 

Before

 

 

after

 

 

its a pretty drastic change IMO

yes now i am saying for sure it cant compare. great but that first pic is three blocks. still, it prob is drastic for louisville, esp when you post it in large pics.

 

ditto for the park itself. come on now, my posts were about projects of a hundred blocks or more, did you even look at them? lets see, hmm, ok -- it's more like the 'vuhl park compares with the new dayton riverfront discovery park and related development. of course, dayton has renos and not new buildings because they already had buildings lying around the area in the pre-park days, unlike that shot of your first pic.

 

The Riverfront Park was published in LA journals as it was from this high-concept firm, Hargreaves Assocates (sort of the LA version of a "starchitect"), but for me it is a bit too clunky...I like what Cincy did at Sawyer Point better...prefer the more trad forms of landscaping that this deconstructivist version. 

 

(and I wasnt aware there was that much surface parkiing next to the ballpark).

^^^That riverfront park does look very cool...thx for the rendering!

yes now i am saying for sure it cant compare. great but that first pic is three blocks. still, it prob is drastic for louisville, esp when you post it in large pics.

 

ditto for the park itself. come on now, my posts were about projects of a hundred blocks or more, did you even look at them? lets see, hmm, ok -- it's more like the 'vuhl park compares with the new dayton riverfront discovery park and related development. of course, dayton has renos and not new buildings because they already had buildings lying around the area in the pre-park days, unlike that shot of your first pic.

 

 

three blocks? i don't think so. its 72+ acres....and with the addition of riverparkplace it will be even bigger

 

 

 

 

its odd though....i thaught we weren't supposed to be comparing Louisville and New York City...

and back to the subject of visitors, i just read that waterfront park averages 1.5 million visitors per year...so there is your other 900,000 ;)

its odd though....i thaught we weren't supposed to be comparing Louisville and New York City...

 

You are starting (cough..are) to be rediculous!

and back to the subject of visitors, i just read that waterfront park averages 1.5 million visitors per year...so there is your other 900,000 ;)

 

Your off the wall connections are getting old!!!

 

First its Ali Center to MP...the Ali/MP to riverfront park that appears to be miles away in your pic:

 

Also your connection of the riverfront park to riverparkplace is also a stretch.

 

This would be like me justifying the potential success of The Banks development to a development occurring Uptown.  Its a stretch and holds little credibility.

oh, it goes from three blocks ...to miles away lol. people aren't that lazy anyway....the waterfront is connected to the belvedere, which is connected to the ali center which is connected to MP...if you've never been there, you have no idea what i'm talking about.

 

waterfront park itsself has averaged 1.5 million people without riverparkplace...so that walk from here to there isn't really relavent......yet

but here is a nother view of phase II of waterfront park....you have to understand that the park was completed in phases...the first phase is the phase that is closer to MP. phase two is still in walking distance...phase III is a little far...and riverparkplace will be a pretty good hike

 

phase I

 

PhaseII

 

phase III UC

 

oh ive been there alright, tho not in quite awhile, but thats ok its not all that complicated.

 

well speaking of relevance, since outside of three blocks in your pic most of this is still in rendering fantasyland, howz about in the meantime you dig up some renderings from the 70's, 80's and 90's too? those would be cool to see. what the heck, might as well throw them up here while we're waiting around on shovels to hit the ground. might give you a better idea of how plans tend to work out in your city.

 

 

its odd though....i thaught we weren't supposed to be comparing Louisville and New York City...

 

odder that you say that when i said it didnt compare and regardless equally had clevelands broad plan in there too...also, in the end i compared the 'vuhl waterfront park to dayton's discovery whoops i meant riverscape park, much more its peer so far.

 

oh ive been there alright, tho not in quite awhile, but thats ok its not all that complicated.

 

well speaking of relevance, since outside of three blocks in your pic most of this is still in rendering fantasyland, howz about in the meantime you dig up some renderings from the 70's, 80's and 90's too? those would be cool to see. what the heck, might as well throw them up here while we're waiting around on shovels to hit the ground. might give you a better idea of how plans tend to work out in your city.

 

 

its odd though....i thaught we weren't supposed to be comparing Louisville and New York City...

 

odder that you say that when i said it didnt compare and regardless equally had clevelands broad plan in there too...also, in the end i compared the 'vuhl waterfront park to dayton's discovery whoops i meant riverscape park, much more its peer so far.

 

 

 

 

no, the rendering of waterfront park i posted have already been completed. the only thing left to finish is the pedestrian bridge

 

 

i'm not sure what you are saying is in "fantasy" land

 

 

riverparkplace is not even a part of waterfront park, thats a seperate private development.

 

 

 

everything in that rendering is complete, except the "big four bridge" pedestrian walkway....and i'm sorry, but thats a little more than 3 blocks.....

I'm just going to retract my comments.  Believe me, it's for the best.

 

One thing, however, before I leave this site......

 

It was NEVER my intention to sound racist in my comment about the Freedom Center.

1012:

This board is full of a bunch of nice, informative, helpful people. But pretty much everyone on this board likes to debate. Its not that they're arrogant, but who doesn't like to have the upper hand in an argument? This board is about local politics more than anything else, so of course you're going to see a lot of arguing. If someone picks apart your posts, its probably not a personal attack, they're just trying to correct you or debate with you. We all argue with each other yet still have a lot of respect for each other. As for the Louisville hate, don't take it personally. People in Ohio trash talk Kentucky all the time; its mostly just jokes. Don't take it too serious. Im sure mostly everyone on here loves the new park, its just...the Jenga Center has to go.

but the thing is...i'm not even a kentuckian lol...but i am in louisville a lot though.

I'm just going to retract my comments.  Believe me, it's for the best.

 

One thing, however, before I leave this site......

 

It was NEVER my intention to sound racist in my comment about the Freedom Center.

 

Did I miss something?  The Freedom Center is on the Cincinnati riverfront & this is a Louisville thread?

 

 

 

what the heck, might as well throw them up here while we're waiting around on shovels to hit the ground. might give you a better idea of how plans tend to work out in your city.

 

Louisville has a pretty good track record when it comes to execution. Which is why its so disappointing to live in Dayton as everything is so half-assed here...of course if we were the largest city in the state we'd maybe get more state support for local redevelopement projects.

 

I like this pix a lot as it shows how big a change has occured over time in Louisville, Believe it or not as late as the 1930s this area was mostly houses and industry....

 

 

 

oh ive been there alright, tho not in quite awhile, but thats ok its not all that complicated.

 

well speaking of relevance, since outside of three blocks in your pic most of this is still in rendering fantasyland, howz about in the meantime you dig up some renderings from the 70's, 80's and 90's too? those would be cool to see. what the heck, might as well throw them up here while we're waiting around on shovels to hit the ground. might give you a better idea of how plans tend to work out in your city.

 

 

its odd though....i thaught we weren't supposed to be comparing Louisville and New York City...

 

odder that you say that when i said it didnt compare and regardless equally had clevelands broad plan in there too...also, in the end i compared the 'vuhl waterfront park to dayton's discovery whoops i meant riverscape park, much more its peer so far.

 

 

 

 

no, the rendering of waterfront park i posted have already been completed. the only thing left to finish is the pedestrian bridge

 

 

i'm not sure what you are saying is in "fantasy" land

 

 

riverparkplace is not even a part of waterfront park, thats a seperate private development.

 

 

 

everything in that rendering is complete, except the "big four bridge" pedestrian walkway....and i'm sorry, but thats a little more than 3 blocks.....

 

top pic=3 blocks of development

 

waterfront=riverscape

 

riverparkplace/jenga=mere fantasy renderings...at least at this point

 

its a lot more than three blocks...

 

 

i think its cool to ad that the other side of the river isn't doing so bad either....

 

^Thats a cool pic (I love bridges!!!), but it really doesn't show much at all of the other side of the river  :|

its a lot more than three blocks...

 

 

i think its cool to ad that the other side of the river isn't doing so bad either....

 

 

huh? looks like three blocks to me from your pic & the recent developed one below it:

 

 

waterfront park extends all the way to the island past the third bridge....that third black bridge is going to be the pedestrian walkway to and from indiana.

I dont know why they didnt extend the park to the Water Tower over at Zorn Avneue, and relocate some of the river-terminal stuff thats still on River Road out to Riverport, or across to the Clark Maritime Center.

 

 

^Thats a cool pic (I love bridges!!!), but it really doesn't show much at all of the other side of the river  :|

 

See my Jeffersonville, Indiana thread, there isn't all that much to show. The Louisville side is much more impressive.

From the old photograph, it appears that the railroad bridge's approach was dismantled decades ago, I can't believe it has stood there this entire time in obsolete infrastructure purgatory.  And nobody has brought up the riverside expressway, this alone dooms Louiville's riverfront redevelopment hopes, aside from the fact the Ohio River just plain isn't very attractive at this spot and Louiville's bridges are nondescript.  The way the business district meets the river without a natural slope or any distinctive edge shape is uninteresting as well.   

Whats the dt office vacancy rate right now in Louisville?  Are there other towers proposed?  I still can't get over the demand for such a large tower.  Quite impressive. 

And nobody has brought up the riverside expressway, this alone dooms Louiville's riverfront redevelopment hopes, aside from the fact the Ohio River just plain isn't very attractive at this spot

 

While the riverside expressway is certainly a negative, I wouldn't say there is much difference in the river in Louisville versus in Cincinnati, it is certainly wider in Louisville, but may not look as grand/impressive because no Roeblings or Big Macs cross it.

The river changes fundamentally about 20 miles upstream from Louisville when it leaves the Appalachian foothills and takes on the flat, mean character it maintains all the way to its confluence with the Mississippi.  When you drive on I-71 to Louiville from Cincinnati, the rolling hills end about 10 miles outside the city and if you take a drive over to Carrolton you will see the last of the dozens of hilly towns that dot the Ohio's banks from that point upstream to Pittsburgh.  Despite there having once been a waterfall there and the handful of islands that remain, like I said Louisville's spot is quite nondescript.   

 

 

From the old photograph, it appears that the railroad bridge's approach was dismantled decades ago, I can't believe it has stood there this entire time in obsolete infrastructure purgatory.  And nobody has brought up the riverside expressway, this alone dooms Louiville's riverfront redevelopment hopes, aside from the fact the Ohio River just plain isn't very attractive at this spot and Louiville's bridges are nondescript.  The way the business district meets the river without a natural slope or any distinctive edge shape is uninteresting as well.     

 

well....the bridges don't stop...this is the design for the new downtown louisville bridge

 

 

 

 

downtown louisville's river front will be flooded with so much construction over the next 10 years, it wll be mind boggling.

They should go with that cable-stayed deisgn, or get Caltrava to design one (would be a great commission, but that wont happen).

 

From the old photograph, it appears that the railroad bridge's approach was dismantled decades ago, I can't believe it has stood there this entire time in obsolete infrastructure purgatory.

 

The Big Four approaches on the Indiana side where up as late as the early 1970s, and where quite imperssive.  I dont recall when the Ky side ones came down.  The bridge was the biggest local white elephant for years, but one proposal, to hang housing on it, made it into that Unbuilt America book...for a number of years the Big Four was lit up durng Xmas as a Toys for Tots fundraising gimmick ("Bridge the Gap").

 

  And nobody has brought up the riverside expressway, this alone dooms Louiville's riverfront redevelopment hopes,

 

www.8664.org

 

...a pipe dream, but others see 64 as an issue as well.  The freeway hasnt doomed any redevelopment yet, though.

 

aside from the fact the Ohio River just plain isn't very attractive at this spot and Louiville's bridges are nondescript

 

The bridges are impressive in their length as the river is at a particulalry wide point here.  The river width and the way it encounters the city at an angle is what makes it interesting.  Whats not interesting is that there is no obvious valley here.

 

  The way the business district meets the river without a natural slope or any distinctive edge shape is uninteresting as well. 

 

There is a short sharp slope, but its not used very well.  The CBD here is interesting as it comes so close to the river, particularly between 8th and 1st streets, where some of the high rises start to crowd the river.  Beyond this, to the east, there is a lot of open space.   I think this close crowding of the river and the possibility of decking over the freeway was a missed opportunity.   Its almost that I'd want this MP tower to go where they are proposing that new arena, to really intesify the crowding along the river.

 

I always thought a good conceptual model for dealing with a riverfront like Louisvilles, where one is working at different levels, dealing with a slope to a river, was Robert Adam's Adelphi Terrace, fronting the Thames...

 

 

 

...the upper section:

 

 

The issue with the river at Louisville has always been floods and flood control, not so much the freeway.  This is going to impose a limitation on what one does on the river side of the floodwall.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The river changes fundamentally about 20 miles upstream from Louiville when it leaves the Appalachian foothills and takes on the flat, mean character it maintains all the way to its confluence with the Mississippi. 

 

The Ohio leaves the Appalachian plateau between Vanceburg and Maysville, around Ohio Brush Creek on the Ohio side.  The bluffs the Ohio passes through to near Louisville are due to its cutting through the geological feature called the Cincinnati Arch, which is sort of a low plateau whiich rises to its highest points around Cincnnati and Lexington.  In Kentucky this is more or less the Bluegrass region. 

 

When the river reaches Louisville it is near the western end or low part of the arch, entering into glacial outwash plain and lake features, which is why the land around Louisville is so flat.  Yet this ends west of New Albany when the river hits one of the escarpments of the Interior Low Plateuas, called Muldraughs Hill in Kentucky and the Knobstone Escarpement or (locally) Floyds Knobs in Indiana...this feature runs from Brown County, Indiana, deep into Kentucky.  The river passes bisects the escarpment just west of West Point, KY, and regains bluffs again as far west as Hawsville and Tell City as it cuts through another plateau:

 

 

 

 

 

When you drive on I-71 to Louiville from Cincinnati, the rolling hills end about 10 miles outside the city and if you take a drive over to Carrolton you will see the last of the dozens of hilly towns that dot the Ohio's banks from that point upstream to Pittsburgh.

 

Madison would be last of these, but the bluffs continue on south of Madison to some exent..that stretch of the river isnt easy to get too.

 

  Despite there having once been a waterfall there and the handful of islands that remain, like I said Louiville's spot is quite nondescript.

 

The nondescript aspect is due to the lack of bluffs close in to the city.  The river itself is quite a dynamic presence, due to the islands, the widening of the pool just prior to the falls and the dams, the canal and locks, and the configuraton of the river as it reaches the city an NE/SW angle, offering view directly upstream for miles. then widens and pools across from downtown, before crossing the rapids n a set of sharp bends, settles and pools around Sand Island, then sweeps in a great arc past New Albany, defining Louisville's West End, the flows due south through a broad valley, following the wall of the escarpement till it breaks the escarpment in a great bend at West Point.

 

The river really does drive the urban form of Louisville to a great extent...

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

They should go with that cable-stayed deisgn

 

I liked the single arch design, but don't see it above. Is that still a possiblity, cable stayed bridges are becoming too commonplace.