December 13, 200618 yr What exactly do you know about contemporary art? What makes you think that this will really put Louisville on the international, or even just national contemporary art scene? The only cities that are the site of serious contemporary art scenes (many artists and many dealers) are New York, LA, and Chicago, and I can tell you that the scenes in LA and Chicago are relatively microscopic as compared to New York. The fall-off after Chicago is precipitous, there is some serious art dealing in Las Vegas and Miami but not much is created there relatively speaking. Do you realize what a tall order it is to expect that major figures in art criticism and journalism are going to start visiting Museum Plaza even once a year? MP is competing with dozens of similar museums opening annually around the entire world. It is not a collecting musuem but an exhibition space, like the CAC in Cincinnati. I think this place will be operating pretty much the way the CAC does, organizing and co-sponsoring travelling shows, and perhaps acting as a force within Louisville proper for contemporary/modern art education, which is a good thing for Louisville. I doubt this will be a national attraction as these types of kunsthalle usually are not. A lot will depend on the curator or director...it appears they are trying to recruit this Dutch or Beligian guy from Munich. MFA programs are a dime a dozen, there are probably over 100 art MFA programs in the United States. If they are able to recruit even one star faculty, they might gain a reputation, otherwise they are just another one of the 90 or so MFA programs with no-name professors (not a blanket rip on those people, just pointing out that reputation of MFA programs is directly paired with reputation of the faculty). The UofL MFA program has a history of being a private art school, The Louisville School of Art, in suburban Anchorage. It moved into the Phoenix Hill area of the city back in the late 1970s or early 80s, and then closed as a private school and was taken over by UofL. Some of the better local artists of the older generation, like the sculptor Ed Hamilton, went to the old Louisville School of Art, so the MFA works of that local history. The interesting thing is that it is located in the same space as this proposed musuem , so there is an opportunity for some shared programming and exhibitions. The concept is similar to whats in Chicago, where the School of the Art Institute is located as part of the Art Institute complex. Louisville has quite a bit of local artists producing and showing locally, and there is local patronage for the local artists, so the market and audience is there for a musuem of this type.
December 13, 200618 yr >It is not a collecting musuem but an exhibition space, like the CAC in Cincinnati. I think this place will be operating pretty much the way the CAC does, organizing and co-sponsoring travelling shows, and perhaps acting as a force within Louisville proper for contemporary/modern art education, which is a good thing for Louisville. I doubt this will be a national attraction as these types of kunsthalle usually are not. A lot will depend on the curator or director...it appears they are trying to recruit this Dutch or Beligian guy from Munich. This is exactly my point, that too many of these types of museums have opened or expanded in the past 10 years with more on the way. The Kemper in Kansas City, the Wexner Center, Milwaukee, even Akron is putting on a contemporary wing. And the CAC might be "the most important building since the end of the Cold War", but the fact is nobody in New York cares. Nobody is coming down to Cincinnati to see the shows there, half the time they're the exact same show that's traveling around the world for two years. This is the core problem -- these kinds of museums in cities where there is no big-time art being made don't have the guts to put on shows of their local artists. Frankly I wish the CAC would auction off the junk up in the top floor kids area and turn that into a local gallery. 12 shows a year, 6 solo shows, 6 group shows. >The UofL MFA program has a history of being a private art school, The Louisville School of Art, in suburban Anchorage. >The concept is similar to whats in Chicago, where the School of the Art Institute is located as part of the Art Institute complex. The concept is similar, but School of the Art Institute of Chicago is the biggest art school in the country, I think they have 60 MFA painters alone and nearly 200 MFA students total and a student body of 2,000. I know they have 16 full-time photography professors, probably tripple the size of the next largest photography faculty in the country. If U of L wants to really attract attention, they could design the program in a unique way, something that doesn't require a $400 million outlay. For example, Bard College's MFA program only meets for 10 weeks out of the year, people work independently wherever they live and can work full-time for most for most of the year so that they don't go into staggering debt like most MFA's. There are only a handful of art MFA programs that fund their students, Ohio University has a full tuition waver plus a $6,000 stipend. This is highly unusual, many MFA programs cost over $20,000 in tuition, so add living expenses and materials and it's tough to avoid going into $100,000 in debt. I know one girl who went into $20,000 credit card debt after just two years at Yale, won a $25,000 grant and paid them off, then moved to New York and lived on credit cards for a year, went into $20,000 debt again and had to retreat to her parents' house back in Tennessee after she didn't catch a big break. Luckily she got a good teaching job but not everyone's that lucky. >Louisville has quite a bit of local artists producing and showing locally, and there is local patronage for the local artists, so the market and audience is there for a musuem of this type. There are artists all over the place, I haven't ever heard that Louisville has an exceptional number of artists and don't know what explanation there would be for that being the case.
December 13, 200618 yr What exactly do you know about contemporary art? What makes you think that this will really put Louisville on the international, or even just national contemporary art scene? The only cities that are the site of serious contemporary art scenes (many artists and many dealers) are New York, LA, and Chicago, and I can tell you that the scenes in LA and Chicago are relatively microscopic as compared to New York. The fall-off after Chicago is precipitous, there is some serious art dealing in Las Vegas and Miami but not much is created there relatively speaking. Do you realize what a tall order it is to expect that major figures in art criticism and journalism are going to start visiting Museum Plaza even once a year? MP is competing with dozens of similar museums opening annually around the entire world. It is not a collecting musuem but an exhibition space, like the CAC in Cincinnati. I think this place will be operating pretty much the way the CAC does, organizing and co-sponsoring travelling shows, and perhaps acting as a force within Louisville proper for contemporary/modern art education, which is a good thing for Louisville. I doubt this will be a national attraction as these types of kunsthalle usually are not. A lot will depend on the curator or director...it appears they are trying to recruit this Dutch or Beligian guy from Munich. ooh yeah exactly true. i'd just add that the kunsthalle is common in europe and a hot trend in the states. cities tend to have their big museum and major exhibition hall along with the small galleries. the corollary is that the artworld is expanding to meet the need. recently the gallery space in chelsea has just exploded and compounded, i assume to meet the demand, but that remains to be seen. as far as art world brokering, nyc remains far at the top of the game. good news is if yr an artist now is the time to get into a group show and see what happens. however, with skyrocketing rents and the fall of the brief williamsburg artist era, berlin is picking up the slack and becoming the emerging cutting edge artworld city for young artists. MFA programs are a dime a dozen, there are probably over 100 art MFA programs in the United States. If they are able to recruit even one star faculty, they might gain a reputation, otherwise they are just another one of the 90 or so MFA programs with no-name professors (not a blanket rip on those people, just pointing out that reputation of MFA programs is directly paired with reputation of the faculty). The UofL MFA program has a history of being a private art school, The Louisville School of Art, in suburban Anchorage. It moved into the Phoenix Hill area of the city back in the late 1970s or early 80s, and then closed as a private school and was taken over by UofL. Some of the better local artists of the older generation, like the sculptor Ed Hamilton, went to the old Louisville School of Art, so the MFA works of that local history. The interesting thing is that it is located in the same space as this proposed musuem , so there is an opportunity for some shared programming and exhibitions. The concept is similar to whats in Chicago, where the School of the Art Institute is located as part of the Art Institute complex. Louisville has quite a bit of local artists producing and showing locally, and there is local patronage for the local artists, so the market and audience is there for a musuem of this type. again very true mfa programs are a dime a dozen. and yeah it's a steep fall for artworld cred after risd. cal arts has top shelf cred too and maybe schools like yale are in the next rung as far as mfa's that carry any real weight or prestige in and of themselves. it would take more than good local suport and/or jenga to get notice for an mfa program, they would also need to build, while not necessarily a black mountain level program, at least something approaching it with at least several noted and famed instructors and some kind of well publicized focus.
December 13, 200618 yr Folks, keep the thread on the project - there's no need for speculation about forumers abusing accounts. Thanks :-) clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
December 14, 200618 yr hey would also need to build, while not necessarily a black mountain level program, at least something approaching it with at least several noted and famed instructors and some kind of well publicized focus. I think Black Mountain was a historically unique scene which can't be duplicated today. In any case Jmecklenborg has excellent observations, much of what I agree with, but also disagree with. What I disagree with is the supply and demand part of his post. If there is a growing or larger than expected collection of contemporary arts centers here and in Europe perhaps this is an emerging system that will creat its own sphere of cultural production in the form of travelling exhibitions via joint or collective sponsorship.
December 14, 200618 yr Returning to MP The urban design/landscape architecture consultant has been retained, to work on the "ground level" part of the design. From Rotterdam, meet West 8 Their aesthetic looks like that fragmented, highly geometric style one has come to associate with modern Dutch planning and architecture...akin to the American Hargreaves but the antithesis of the naturalistic or neotraditional formalist landscaping usually preferred in the US.
December 14, 200618 yr >the corollary is that the artworld is expanding to meet the need. recently the gallery space in chelsea has just exploded and compounded, i assume to meet the demand, but that remains to be seen. Actually when I was there in August it looked like that one gigantic building where there were many galleries and studios is now being converted into condos, and condos are going up all over that area. One had a slogan that read something like "live in the heart of the art" but by its very construction its acting to push the art galleries somewhere else on the island. >as far as art world brokering, nyc remains far at the top of the game. good news is if yr an artist now is the time to get into a group show and see what happens. however, with skyrocketing rents and the fall of the brief williamsburg artist era, berlin is picking up the slack and becoming the emerging cutting edge artworld city for young artists. I've heard that Berlin is much cheaper than New York, I haven't been there. There have been a lot of major artists coming out of Germany in recent decades, as opposed to Spain or France who have been largely out of the game for the last 60 years. There is some speculation that young poor artists are going to increasingly live and operate out of Philadelphia, I'm not over that way too often so I haven't seen that myself. Just 30 years ago the whole New York art world consisted of well under 5,000 people and more like 500 who were really doing it full time. This was more or less everyone in the world who had made it or was trying to make it, most in a fairly concentrated area of Manhattan. There's no telling how big it is now, there are tons and tons of people involved but I don't think the quality of the work is really reflecting that.
December 15, 200618 yr hey would also need to build, while not necessarily a black mountain level program, at least something approaching it with at least several noted and famed instructors and some kind of well publicized focus. I think Black Mountain was a historically unique scene which can't be duplicated today. no doubt. and thats an understatement. but the point being they will need to do something dramatic as far as faculty and focus to take any big time attention away from the only couple mfa schools that matter (cal arts and risd). an odd building wont do it. the corollary is that the artworld is expanding to meet the need. recently the gallery space in chelsea has just exploded and compounded, i assume to meet the demand, but that remains to be seen. Actually when I was there in August it looked like that one gigantic building where there were many galleries and studios is now being converted into condos, and condos are going up all over that area. One had a slogan that read something like "live in the heart of the art" but by its very construction its acting to push the art galleries somewhere else on the island. that particular building is lined with new galleries on the ground level on both 23rd and 24th st sides so that is quite a few brand new galleries in and of itself. also, remember its just one building in the middle of one block. there is a lot more new stuff. also, another hot trend lately is for gallerists to have multiple galleries around town and overseas. as far as art world brokering, nyc remains far at the top of the game. good news is if yr an artist now is the time to get into a group show and see what happens. however, with skyrocketing rents and the fall of the brief williamsburg artist era, berlin is picking up the slack and becoming the emerging cutting edge artworld city for young artists. I've heard that Berlin is much cheaper than New York, I haven't been there. There have been a lot of major artists coming out of Germany in recent decades, as opposed to Spain or France who have been largely out of the game for the last 60 years. There is some speculation that young poor artists are going to increasingly live and operate out of Philadelphia, I'm not over that way too often so I haven't seen that myself. i dont hear any talk of it but philly is always going to be the next something, but never is. good luck to them, but as of the moment for young artists interested in "making the move" and looking for cheaper rents its berlin or los angeles.
December 15, 200618 yr >also, another hot trend lately is for gallerists to have multiple galleries around town and overseas. Another hot trend is for gallery owners to be described as "gallerists". BTW look at an Art Forum from 20 years ago, you will see that some of the top galleries then are still the top galleries now -- Barbara Gladstone, Gagosian, Metro Pictures, etc. Many have come and gone but they're for whatever reason unable to knock these people off. >but as of the moment for young artists interested in "making the move" and looking for cheaper rents its berlin or los angeles. As recently as 2000 it was still possible to rent in New York and make it waiting tables or doing odd jobs, now all those spaces are filled with either people with real jobs posing as artists or people burning up their inheritances hanging out and saying they're going to make a go at it. Realistically, if you are a young adult moving to New York looking to break into the art world, your competition consists of roughly 3,000 undergraduates and grad students at the various colleges as well as thousands more rich kids from around the world who can afford the rent for both an apartment and a studio and have all day every day to make work. How the heck do you compete with that if you have to work 55 hours a week just to pay the rent?
December 15, 200618 yr you said it, i totally agree -- theres no way nyc can remain the spot for young artists due to the real estate problem. the only thing that keeps any serious artist newbies around is proximity to the galleries, somewhat for artworld related jobs (if they're smart) and perhaps nostalgia. east williamsburg & red hook are already quite gentrified. the south bronx is only very recently an aspiring artists haven, yet gentrification is well on the way w/ the new yankee stadium & other related construction. after that....forget it, there is nothing left w/in reason in the city.
December 18, 200618 yr Council panel OKs Museum Plaza tax district A Louisville Metro Council Committee yesterday gave its unanimous approval to create a tax-increment financing district on four acres around the proposed Museum Plaza that will use a portion of income tax revenue to pay for the project. An ordinance approving the tax district will go before the full council Tuesday. Museum Plaza is the $465 million, 62-story skyscraper that developers plan to build on the riverfront starting this summer. The tax district will generate millions of dollars in income taxes that will go toward paying for about $118 million in infrastructure that is deemed the “public” portion of the project. That will include extending River Road to Eighth Street, building a section of floodwall, creating a public park and plaza and moving a large LG&E tower. http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061214/NEWS01/61214058/0/FEATURES
January 14, 200718 yr Rem Koolhaas is in my top 5 favorite architects in the world, but I thinnk you guys will get a kick out of this one. Oil Ocean Zone, Sonic 2.
January 18, 200718 yr Steps over the dog do-do... I've been following the Museum Plaza project for a while and expanded greatly upon the Museum Plaza Wikipedia article. I also had a chance to speak with numerous gallery owners, including ones who own the new Ali Museum (adjacent to the proposed site). They are pretty upbeat about the new structure, as it will draw in a lot of varied guests and tourists to "Museum Row" - so named for its collection of museums and galleries in what was once a warehouse/industrial district just west of the downtown core. One wondered how it will modify the skyline from West Main Street and I questioned that myself. After walking extensively through the area, you would not be able to see the looming structure's presence unless you are in the middle of the street or to the south - the four-five level historic structures would block a lot of the view from the sidewalk. Work is on-going at the site, with the interior demolition of three structures. They will be gutted, and the exterior front facade used as an 'entryway' into Museum Plaza's diagonal elevator. Also see the following articles that I have posted in, with additional commentary and articles -- http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33060 http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21621
January 20, 200718 yr Rem Koolhaas didnt design MP though. You're right, Joshua Prince-Ramus, a former designer from Koolhaas's firm OMA did it. My bad. It's going to be an incredible project. I'm jealous. http://www.ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=j_prince_ramus
January 21, 200718 yr I like it even less now. Those renderings that show it in context with the beautiful commerical rows of Main St. are just sickening, and those pine trees and rocks are ugly and out of place. Gross!
January 21, 200718 yr Hmmm....somehow the design development on that facade is less interesting than the original proposal, which was giving me that Craig Ellwood Cal-Arts truss/John Hancock riff. Not sure I like what they are doing with Fort Nelson Park and 7th either. It seems to obvious. The original undeveloped concept seemed a bit more interesting or juicy. I don't mind using conifers, but it would be more fun if they used those scrub cedars that are so common on dead fields in Kentucky...use local stuff in the landscaping
January 21, 200718 yr i dont like the trees either. New plans for Museum Plaza to be unveiled Monday Forum to offer details of expansive project By Marcus Green The Courier-Journal A glassblowing studio. An elevated three-acre park. A 246-room Westin hotel. Three towers rising 62 stories above Louisville. The latest plans for Museum Plaza, the massive complex planned for Seventh Street and River Road, will be unveiled by developers tomorrow during a forum at the Kentucky Center. More than 400 people are expected to attend the update on the $465 million, 62-story project that will include a museum, a hotel, condominiums and office space, said Bob Gunnell, a Museum Plaza spokesman. The update "will be our largest ever we've had for one of these," he said. Scheduled to speak are architects Joshua Prince-Ramus and Erez Ella of REX Architectural Partners; Chris Dercon, the director of museum development; and Adriaan Gueze, a principal with landscape architect West 8, a Dutch firm. More at http://www.courier-journal.com
January 21, 200718 yr I like that CN Tower esque see-through floor, though. The interiors are going to be fun.
January 22, 200718 yr Museum Plaza to be built for only $465! And other details... A forum Monday on plans for the $465 Museum Plaza proposed on Louisville’s riverfront unveiled significant new details on the project’s public space. Museum Plaza, one of the country’s largest urban developments on the horizon, will tower 62 stories at Seventh Street and River Road and include: - 246-room Westin Hotel, - 95 luxury and 108 loft condominiums, - 40,000 square feet of retail, - 16 floors with 295,000 square feet of offices, - 800-space parking garage, a three-acre elevated plaza and extensive “contemporary art space.”
January 22, 200718 yr well shoot, I might as well plop down 300 bucks to have a controlling interest in the building.
January 23, 200718 yr Museum Plaza details sketched out Significant new details on the public space planned at the $465 million Museum Plaza on Louisville's riverfront were disclosed yesterday at a forum on the multi-use skyscraper. "In the beginning, I was a skeptic," Museum Plaza partner Steve Poe told about 400 people in the Kentucky Center's Bomhard Theater. "But today, I am a believer. The fantasy is a reality. … It will be built." The project, one of the largest urban developments under way in the United States, will rise 62 stories above Seventh and Main streets and include an art display area, a hotel, condominiums, retail space, offices, a parking garage and a three-acre plaza. Ground is expected to be broken in May or June, with completion in late 2010.
January 27, 200718 yr photos of the updated model and according to the Louisville folks at ssc, Museum Plaza is a done deal.
January 28, 200718 yr Okay, what viaduct is this again? Ours is a relic from the early 1970s. Instead of clean, sleek lines with minimal supports, we get concrete and steel monstrosity. It would be even better if the viaduct itself was gone...
January 28, 200718 yr This is the image that I like the best...the transporting of humans through hamster like means!!!
February 1, 200718 yr :( Museum Plaza tax plan under fire A multi-million-dollar tax rebate on hotel rooms that developers say is vital to the Museum Plaza skyscraper project is running into opposition. The city’s Convention and Visitors Bureau and groups representing the hotel and tourism industries are lining up against legislation that would allow Museum Plaza to use a portion of the room tax from the project’s Westin hotel. How convenient. The Convention and Visitors Bureau should be kissing the asses of the Museum Plaza developers since it would add a net benefit in terms of tourism draw and still create a hefty increase in revenue in terms of room taxes! Article information: Museum Plaza tax plan under fire, By Marcus Green, Courier-Journal [Louisville], January 31, 2007"
February 2, 200718 yr Mayor intervenes in Museum Plaza dispute More information coming in 48 hours... Article information: "Mayor intervenes in Museum Plaza dispute, By Marcus Green, Courier-Journal [Louisville], February 1, 2007"
February 2, 200718 yr The park is not going to look like that. The trees are too tall for being planted on top of a parking garage. That was a limiting factor at Riverfront Plaza. The plaza was landscaped with trees, but they could not grow tall as there was no place for the root systems to go as there was a parking garage underneath.
February 3, 200718 yr You can do a lot with trees on top of parking structures. I took a look at the models and plans, and the depth from the parking deck to the top of the planter is ~3 feet, which can support fairly full trees (not maples or oaks...). They also contain drainage and watering systems to supplement the trees. There are many urban parks constructed on parking decks and on top of buildings.
February 3, 200718 yr Good news! Deal reached on Museum Plaza tax rebate Under the agreement, the commissioners will support Museum Plaza’s plan to use part of the city’s room tax — the main source of the bureau’s operating budget — but cap the tax revenue that can be spent on public infrastructure to $400,000 a year. After that, the cap will be increased by 4 percent a year over 30 years. Any revenue above the cap will go to the bureau. Article information: "Deal reached on Museum Plaza tax rebate, By Marcus Green, Courier-Journal [Louisville], February 2, 2007"
February 4, 200718 yr good news :-D :-D Deal struck on room taxes Compromise aids Museum Plaza plan Saturday, February 3, 2007 By Marcus Green, The Courier-Journal Louisville tourism officials and Museum Plaza developers reached a compromise yesterday on a multimillion-dollar tax proposal that would help pay for the skyscraper complex at Seventh Street and River Road. The Greater Louisville Convention and Visitors Bureau's commissioners unanimously approved the deal at a special meeting a day after Mayor Jerry Abramson called on the two sides to quickly settle differences over using hotel-room taxes to fund public improvements at Museum Plaza. Lawyers worked past midnight Thursday and much of yesterday to craft a resolution lending the bureau's support to a Museum Plaza tax plan. The plan is expected to be filed in the General Assembly next week. Full article: http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070203/NEWS01/702030444Reporter
February 10, 200718 yr Museum Plaza legislation filed The head of Jefferson County’s legislative delegation introduced a bill today that would help provide funding for the Museum Plaza skyscraper complex. The measure, co-sponsored by the delegation chairwoman, Rep. Joni Jenkins, D-Shively, and Rep. Scott Brinkman, R-Louisville, would extend a special taxing district from 20 years to 30 years; allow some local room taxes to be used for work on public infrastructure; and exempt construction materials for the project from sales taxes. Museum Plaza officials have said the legislation is critical to the $465 million project being built. http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/...S0101/70209025 :clap: :clap:
February 13, 200718 yr Legislators back bill that assists Museum Plaza (By Marcus Green, Courier-Journal [Louisville], February 10, 2007) Rally backs Museum Plaza bill (Courier-Journal [Louisville], February 12, 2007) Delegation backs Museum Plaza bill (By Sheldon S. Shafer, Courier-Journal [Louisville], February 13, 2007) For the latter, all but one (out of 18) support the legislation! :lol:
February 15, 200718 yr Hotel group opposes Museum Plaza tax plan This issue was just resolved not long ago. Now another group is coming up and whining about it, attempting to derail or stall the project for their own selfish benefit. :evil: A Louisville hotel group is lobbying the Kentucky General Assembly to oppose a tax plan for Museum Plaza — legislation developers say is needed for the $465 million project to be built. The head of the Greater Louisville Hotel and Lodging Association sent members an e-mail this week asking them to urge lawmakers to resist changing a state law governing how hotel-room taxes can be spent. Among the association’s concerns are that House Bill 393 would set a precedent for using room taxes — money now dedicated for marketing conventions and other tourist events — for new development. Article information: "Hotel group opposes Museum Plaza tax plan, By Marcus Green, The Courier-Journal, Thursday, February 15, 2007"
February 15, 200718 yr ooh new cartoons and toy models. well that cinches it. it should def be built.
February 16, 200718 yr Can the darn name of this thread be changed yet....how many mondays have past since you changed it to this title...something simple like 'Louisville: Museum Plaza' would be better.
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