That article on SOS does not give a location or times for this.  Is this just one event or a gallery show?

 

 

And by "social issues" he means liberal causes. 

 

A social issue is whatever the individual or groups of people make it.  This individual's 'social issue' happens to be a liberal stance, there could very well be a 'social issue' that is a conservative stance.  However, I would contend that most issues that require social change are those issues that are more liberal causes.  It is known that the majority of society opposes the war in Iraq, they are for a woman's right to choose, and they are for more tolerant practices towards people of different sexual orientations.  These stances are also coincidentally liberal causes...that should not take away the meaning of a 'social issue' though.

>It's possible to have conservative political art.  The old fascists where quite good at this...they were very attuned to visual culture...and it didn't have to be trad art (sort of like the German fascist art as sort of a Teutonic Norman Rockwell thing, but modern too, as with the Italians).  In the US in the same time period there was the "American Scene", which sometimes had an implied conservative/patriotic cultural content (though this art was promoted by CPUSA "popular front" ideology, too).

 

Well I think it would be career suicide to make any art now that celebrates traditional family life or any of that.  I think only a slim percentage of artists are particularly interested in politics but those who are, at least here, are definitely dominated by leftists to the extent that any conservatives are forced keep quiet and make non-political art.  Personally I think it's impossible to be "open-minded" in the way that it's popularly tossed around. 

 

>Artists can have an tremendous effect on social change, though it might not always be apparent.  Think about all of the musicians, painters, writers, and filmmakers throughout history.  The freethinkers are the people that put the most dread into the establishment, and they are some of the first people sent to the gulags or silenced by repressive means.

 

Well to keep this remotely on-topic let's just agree that the next big thing in art or music probably isn't going ot come out of on the Main St. bars or galleries!   

 

 

>And like many other people, I care about art.

 

Sure, maybe 100,000 people around the country actively make and study art but that's a lot fewer than play tennis or golf or play video games or grow marijuana.  The fact is Mathew Barney or any of the other names that are huge in contemporary art aren't household names.  I think this is mostly because when Formalism was abandoned young artists focused most of their effort on ideas instead of craft and so art from about 1970 onward has been automatically inaccessible to the general public.  Except for Christo (who needs to retire ASAP) I think the only artists who became household names in the past 20 years were Robert Mapplethorpe and Andreas Serrano and that's because of the controversy surrounding the ending of NEA grants for individual artists. 

 

 

OK. I admit I am new to this discussion and I don't have the perspective of history to guide me, but will somebody please tell me what the hell these thug bars with their drunken violent patrons bring to the area? I mean, other than making some money for a bar owner and a landlord, giving the police and trash collectors some work, why would anyone want a bar, much less, a "hip hop" bar in their neighborhood?

 

I'm about a block away from this Main St. area, and I would be overjoyed if every one of these bars closed. Bars and clubs don't build neighborhoods, market rate residents do. Am I wrong here?

OK. I admit I am new to this discussion and I don't have the perspective of history to guide me, but will somebody please tell me what the hell these thug bars with their drunken violent patrons bring to the area? I mean, other than making some money for a bar owner and a landlord, giving the police and trash collectors some work, why would anyone want a bar, much less, a "hip hop" bar in their neighborhood?

 

I'm about a block away from this Main St. area, and I would be overjoyed if every one of these bars closed. Bars and clubs don't build neighborhoods, market rate residents do. Am I wrong here?

I wouldn't call all of them "thug bars", I go to the Exchange occasionally and I'm not a thug. Earlier in the thread we discussed how businesses that operate through the day are more sustainable. I'm not sure if these bars are a good or bad thing, personally. On one hand, there's more crackheads out, b/c of the prospect of getting money out of patrons, but at the same time, there's a lot more foot traffic on the street making it appear safer. The central location makes it ideal for nightlife and I think there's a lot of people that would want to live around that kind of atmosphere but given OTR's crime rate, I don't think see night life in the form of dance clubs that can get pretty rowdy as a sustainable solution, at least not until the neighborhood is much safer. I have a hard time getting people to want to go there at night. I'm more in favor of restaurants, coffee shops, theater, etc. as well as offices/ misc. small businesses filling up the storefronts. These kinds of places attract more patrons through the day when patrons aren't as scared to walk through OTR.

 

By the way, welcome to the forum :)

OK. I admit I am new to this discussion and I don't have the perspective of history to guide me, but will somebody please tell me what the hell these thug bars with their drunken violent patrons bring to the area? I mean, other than making some money for a bar owner and a landlord, giving the police and trash collectors some work, why would anyone want a bar, much less, a "hip hop" bar in their neighborhood?

 

I'm about a block away from this Main St. area, and I would be overjoyed if every one of these bars closed. Bars and clubs don't build neighborhoods, market rate residents do. Am I wrong here?

 

Will you please clarify what the "thug bars" are?  I live very close to the area as well, and I'm not sure which places are the "thug bars."

This kind of stuff really sets the district back.  I just have real doubts that this can EVER be a viable entertainment district...too much perception to overcome.

 

Nightclub closed after killings

BY KIMBALL PERRY | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

August 22, 2007

 

OVER-THE-RHINE - An Over-the-Rhine dance club had its lease terminated today, a move that comes after two people were killed outside the controversial nightspot in recent weeks.

 

“They locked me out,” said Sirak Geberegeorgis, owner of Club Dream.

215 Jail Alley

I am never over that way late at night to see it in person, but the advertising they distribute around the neighborhood

http://www.citykin.com/2007/08/main-street-nightclubs-who-do-they.html

indicate they are attracting a rough underage crowd.  Then with two murders in so many weeks, I say good riddance.

 

This comment from the bar owner gets me:

“Their job,” he said of the off-duty officers he hired, “is to make sure my customers are safe when they leave. That didn’t happen. Why are they trying to put it back on the bar?”

 

Be careful of the crowd you keep!         

Geberegeorgis believes Cincinnati police pressured the building owners and managers to shut him down.

Wrong.  I was at the meeting with all venue owners where the captain explained to all club owners that they needed to make changes and singled no club out.  This was done by the property owner (who he himself was not even at the meeting with the captain), not the police department.  The captain has stood behind the property owners and venue operators in their efforts to turn things around internally and has pressured no one, especially not someone like Mike Stough.

 

Here is the important facts in the article....

"two people were killed outside the controversial nightspot in recent weeks".

"past due rent"

 

This kind of stuff really sets the district back.  I just have real doubts that this can EVER be a viable entertainment district...too much perception to overcome.

This is without a doubt our biggest obstacle, but do not count us out just yet because if you say that about Main, then we say that about all of OTR

This is without a doubt our biggest obstacle, but do not count us out just yet because if you say that about Main, then we say that about all of OTR

 

No, not necessarily...the rest of OTR isn't striving to become an entertainment district that survives off of people coming in from the outside.  For that too happen you need easy parking, easy access, and at least the perception of safety.  If you don't have all of those then I would say you're fighting an uphill battle.  4th, 6th, 7th and FS area makes for a better entertainment destination.  It is already commercial and just makes more sense in my mind.

 

OTR should be a neighborhood that has retail that services its residents.  The rest of OTR is heading down that path...and Main Street seems to be trying to do the same.  Let the bars/clubs go to the CBD area, and leave OTR as a neighborhood and arts destination...I think nightlife will always struggle there.

too much perception to overcome.

 

 

This is without a doubt our biggest obstacle, but do not count us out just yet because if you say that about Main, then we say that about all of OTR

 

No, not necessarily...the rest of OTR isn't striving to become an entertainment district that survives off of people coming in from the outside.

 

But it is striving to overcome perception of safety and yes we do survive off people coming in from the outside to support not just bars, but retail and residential. We will overcome this negative percetion in some, not in others, and I am not just speaking of Main. But Main is not simply a bar district, and this is not what we are intending it to be in the future. It will be a mix of everything I mentioned above and the closing down of Dream is a positive step towards improving not just perception, but a limitation of the type of programming (18 and up) that sets the environment for safety problems.

 

Moving forward, we have several new bars that will be opening with an across the board mix of offerings but this is not our total focus. Our focus is on a sustainability model that will ensure a safe and clean environment for all who live, work and play on Main. Should Main be an entertainment dist? not entirely, it should simply be a place that people feel they want to be morning, noon, or night and we will get it there.

 

OTR should be a neighborhood that has retail that services its residents.

True, but why limit to just that? It has always been my dream to make OTR a place that people want to live, not where they have to live. But the only way that we will get it there is to familiarize people with OTR, bring them in from other places and having unique venues of all types is one way to do that.

 

4th, 6th, 7th and FS area makes for a better entertainment destination.

 

As for the entertainment part of Main it will differ from 4th, 6th, and 7th in that they will not necessarily be the familiar chain that you can find in any city USA (but that serves a purpose as well) Main will be more of the local, true Cincinnati flavor. We are not trying to compete with CBD, it will be different, they are not our rivals, they bring people who otherwise would not give downtown a chance, Main is the next step.

This is without a doubt our biggest obstacle, but do not count us out just yet because if you say that about Main, then we say that about all of OTR

 

BS,

I'll be happy when all those Clubs are gone. I want residential and less social services on main s of 13th. OTR's club scene is going away and it has been a cap in the ass of OTR for a long time. I want Main to be a quiet residential Arts district with some cool small local bars and none of that red carpet glitzy crap.

OTR's club scene is going away

Well I hear differently.

 

I'll be happy when all those Clubs are gone.

No Pitifuls? No Vinyl? No Harry's to reopen? No sushi at Mix? Let Neons (soon to be Jardin) stay closed? No reopening of Japs or RBC's? Let them sit empty? Well that is one possibility I suppose, but we are exploring other routes at this time.

 

I want Main to be a quiet residential Arts district with some cool small local bars and none of that red carpet glitzy crap

Well some have to be a little large by design but I agree with the red carpet glitzy crap. I live in OTR, I work on Main, I am on Main right this second and trust me, I want the best for it as well but this is a big street, lots of different spaces to fill of all sorts of different sizes. There is no one fit, it can all work together. Send me a art gallery that will fill JHall, send me a small bar that will fit Davis, there is a highest and best use for each space, Main is not cookie cutter.

OTR should be a neighborhood that has retail that services its residents. 

 

I don't think there are enough residents in OTR to support all the store fronts on their own yet.  There is a need for people who live outside of OTR to come down and shop, eat, etc. 

Yes but those shops and what not are a combination of residents and people from the outside.  How many people live on Main so that they can frequent to bars/clubs?  How many of those people on Main go to the bars/clubs every weekend night?  Bars/clubs are more reliant on outside clientele than most other uses.

Everyone I know that lives on Main wants it to be what it is north of 13th.

Who wants to live next to a rap or crappy rock cover band club like jefferson hall?  When I lived at 4th and Plum I dreaded Thurs night/ Fri morning. Hip Hop night at Spy Club on 5th was so loud after midnight. People gunning engines and speeding down the street, drunk girls screaming Woohoooooo at 3 am in and patrons peeing on the sidewalk, cars, sides of buildings..Nobody wants to live next to that nonsense, especailly if you are a homeowner.

How many of those people on Main go to the bars/clubs every weekend night?  Bars/clubs are more reliant on outside clientele than most other uses.

Well my wife and I may be the exception but you are correct.  So what does that mean to Main then?  People from the outside need a reason to venture into OTR.  Main needs to be a destination, and not just bars, but restruants, shops, galleries.  There should always be a reason to come to Main.

 

Everyone I know that lives on Main wants it to be what it is north of 13th.

And I have a dollar in my pocket says that they all live north of 13th as well.  The "bar dist" is for the most part isolated to 2 blocks and there is no residential above it.  Should we have Kaldis limit its traffic as it may interfere with the peace and quiet of the residential above?  People smoking outside their front door?  Of course not.

 

Who wants to live next to a rap or crappy rock cover band club like jefferson hall.

Nobody wants to live next to that nonsense, especailly if you are a homeowner.

Or an empty Jhall with broken windows that sends a signal of a lifeless street.  Many do not, but Mt. Adams seems to cope with it, Northside seems to cope with it, Mt Lookout seems to cope with it, and so do the residents I know on Main.

 

Or an empty Jhall with broken windows that sends a signal of a lifeless street.  Many do not, but Mt. Adams seems to cope with it, Northside seems to cope with it, Mt Lookout seems to cope with it, and so do the residents I know on Main.

 

They do cope with it, but those areas are also much less dense and are more so business districts within the larger scheme of things for those neighborhoods.  On Main you have people living almost directly on top/next to these places.

 

Well my wife and I may be the exception but you are correct.  So what does that mean to Main then?  People from the outside need a reason to venture into OTR.  Main needs to be a destination, and not just bars, but restruants, shops, galleries.  There should always be a reason to come to Main.

 

I completely agree...I'm just saying from a business standpoint that you're probably going to be more successful attracting people during the day/evening hours rather than the late night hours.  That goes for all of OTR (I'm not saying it's right).

There should always be a reason to come to Main.

 

I walk down Main because it's the safest passage to the CBD at certain hours.  The loitering and litter has gotten really bad at Peter Cleavers though. Kaldis is not a problem bar, unless you think hipsters,punks,  artists and hippies are thugs. 8-) More bars like Kaldis is what I want down there. The owner cares about the neighborhood and its residents who frequent his establishment.

Two new bar/lounges opening in OTR

November 14, 2007 | CINCINNATI BUSINESS COURIER

 

OVER-THE-RHINE - A pair of entrepreneurial Miami University students are opening Over-the-Rhine's two newest bar/lounges.

 

Co-owners Joe Gilster and Mark Fogarty will open Cue on Thursday and Speakeasy in early December, Gilster said in a phone interview.

man do i wish them well.  i go by these all the time on the bus and just see the possibilities.  bah! 

just came out of Cue about an hour ago and we held a private party in Speakeasy for Mulberry last Friday.  They are coming together fast. 

man do i wish them well.  i go by these all the time on the bus and just see the possibilities.  bah!

 

Yeah...I just rode by on the 17 a little bit ago and saw a lot of work being done.  Looks like there is a strong push to finish up this work, it all sounds great.

How do two 21 year olds open two bars??  How do they have enough experience to run them?  Coming from Oxford, how do they bring something new to the table?

 

Honest questions, I'm quite curious.  I'll hold off on criticism, but pool tables in a lounge sounds like a college kid idea.

I'll hold off on criticism, but pool tables in a lounge sounds like a college kid idea.

 

We tend to usually agree as it seems on the bar scene, but I disagree with you here. Pool is a game that attracts such a wide audience from young to old. From bikers to yuppies. It can work if it draws a good pool-skill crowd.

 

Michael, what about Mixx? That place is starting to look crazy-cool these days?

The key to any bar's success is getting young hot girls to come in and/or work there. If pool tables bring in college students, particularly girls, I don't think anyone will complain.

^Many college bars actually hire girls simply to be there all night.  This is very common in bigger cities and among college bars at the big state schools.  When I had my beer/bar promotions gig I got the scoop on it from the girls themselves, they'd often get paid $200-300 just to get dressed up and get hit on for four hours.  When we were taking the party photos, it was actually in their job description to be in those photos.  People accuse the photographers of going around and only taking photos of the hot girls when in fact the whole thing's staged!   

 

LOL.

 

I found out the reason why drinks at upscale places like Via Vite are so expensive (about double the typical neighborhood or college bar) is to keep the idiots and homeless bums out. Same reasons for bars with covers.

How do two 21 year olds open two bars??  How do they have enough experience to run them?  Coming from Oxford, how do they bring something new to the table?

 

Honest questions, I'm quite curious.  I'll hold off on criticism, but pool tables in a lounge sounds like a college kid idea.

Hell i wondered how they get loans so fast just after school. They must have some SERIOUS co-signers.

^Being from Oxford I would assume that Mommy and Daddy are helping out...my generalization could be off though.

On another note, forgot to mention this here.  About a month ago, I saw an email regarding a liquor permit application for the old Cooper's on Main space.  Looked into the applicants and they are the owners of Martino's on Short Vine.  A real estate agent I ran into this summer during one of the home tours mentioned this was in the works and the email suggests that its true.  Would be a nice addition.  I hope its a more down to earth restaurant and not another upscale spot.

The key to any bar's success is getting young hot girls to come in and/or work there. If pool tables bring in college students, particularly girls, I don't think anyone will complain.

 

I don't think that will help a place like below zero or universal grille

I didn't even know Below Zero was gay! The same concept would probably work just as well at those places (replace women with men). Gay bars = meat markets.

 

Gay bars = meat markets.

 

Uh oh...(KOOW flashback)

I don't really know what you're refering to but gay bars definitely tend to be meat markets from what I've heard gay guys say. It makes sense--if you're just going to a bar to socialize and have fun you'll go to any nice bar but if you're looking to hook up, you're going to go where what you're looking for is more concentrated. Hire a few hot gay boys to make people think they have a chance and watch the revenue pour in!

I didn't even know Below Zero was gay!

 

Technically, I don't think it's a gay bar, but there are a lot of gay men who go there.  I occasionally go there with my husband, and sometimes we go with a group of straight friends. 

^I've only been there once (with my now-wife and straight friends) and it definitely seemed more gay than mixed.  cool place though.

 

I found out the reason why drinks at upscale places like Via Vite are so expensive (about double the typical neighborhood or college bar) is to keep the idiots and homeless bums out. Same reasons for bars with covers.

 

[tangent] I've never been anywhere where bums are an issue, but this, dress code, and music are the best ways to attract (or repel) a particular type of crowd.  I fully support music policies and tolerate high drink prices, but can't get into dress codes.  The problem, however, is this.  In more cosmopolitan cities, you don't necessarily have to dictate a dress code.  People generally know what to expect, and therefore dress accordingly (whether that means individualistic style or something more reserved depends on the venue).  Here, it seems most guys think the Cincinnati uniform of shorts and sandals is appropriate for anywhere anytime.  I personally don't care what people wear, but I generally don't have much in common with the shorts and sandals crowd. They wouldn't care for the places I like and vice versa.[/tangent]

 

But yeah, expensive drinks keep the riff-raff out.  And I've been to a billion lounges and clubs large and small and never seen a single pool table (that I can remember).  It's a college bar/dive thing.

How do two 21 year olds open two bars??  How do they have enough experience to run them?  Coming from Oxford, how do they bring something new to the table?

Honest questions, I'm quite curious.  I'll hold off on criticism, but pool tables in a lounge sounds like a college kid idea.

 

Well it is more than just Joe and Mark, Paul Yankee is very involved (the owner of the Exchange) and is helping in every aspect of the opening, and operation of, not just these two bars, but Pizza Bar as well (Harry's Pizza).

On another note, forgot to mention this here.  About a month ago, I saw an email regarding a liquor permit application for the old Cooper's on Main space.  Looked into the applicants and they are the owners of Martino's on Short Vine.  A real estate agent I ran into this summer during one of the home tours mentioned this was in the works and the email suggests that its true.

Was I this agent?  It is true!

 

I didn't even know Below Zero was gay!

Here is my take, Nigel may agree or disagree.  A club tempo is set by its operator/owner.  The owner is gay and therefor it makes Below Zero a "gay friendly" bar however we have hosted parties there, Holly's going away party when she left Comey was held there (well a comey party may be a bad example) but it is an everyone bar that is friendly to "EVERYONE".

Michael, what about Mixx? That place is starting to look crazy-cool these days?

The pace has really picked up the past 3 weeks.  I know some have expressed concern about Rulah David and Michael Spalding with the Diner and how this may affect Mixx, but keep in mind, they are partners in a larger group that is putting together this venue.  I believe that Mixx will help the Diner and the eventual opening of Jardin when it proves to be successful.

 

The key to any bar's success is getting young hot girls to come in and/or work there. If pool tables bring in college students, particularly girls, I don't think anyone will complain.

First, two pool tables does not a college pool hall make.  Second, you speak of success of 1 bar, and that is of course important, but these openings are designed to create a critical mass.  You have to think of the Main Street collective in order to understand the planned success of these particular bars.  Energy, if you were to sum it up in one word, I think that would describe what Main is going for, Energy both in the single bars and energy when you step out on the street.

 

 

 

I never believed pool tables = college patrons but if they're more likely to go to a bar like that, I see it as having a positive impact.

Here, it seems most guys think the Cincinnati uniform of shorts and sandals is appropriate for anywhere anytime.  I personally don't care what people wear, but I generally don't have much in common with the shorts and sandals crowd. They wouldn't care for the places I like and vice versa.

 

Yeah...I've grown further and further away from the shorts look.  I just don't like it...other than that I have to completely agree with every part of your tangent.

Anyone else think that new bars may be opening a bit too soon?

 

I believe that it would be smarter for the neighborhood to develop a critical mass of residents before the 'bar district' re-opens.  Especially with the jail tax failing, I worry that the same problems will plague the district this time around.

Without the Hamilton County task forces, this could become the 'shooting gallery' that everyone already thinks it is.  I worry that this could undermine a lot of the good work going on in OTR because it has the potential to re-enforce stereotypes of the neighborhood that already exist.

I think it would be smarter to use the storefronts as gallery space for local artists while condos are sold in the area. The large numbers of new Condos and higher priced apartments could house 'stake holders' that keep an eye on the street.

I would argue that in this portion of OTR there is a critical mass.  There are different parts of OTR that go to the beat of their own drum...this is one of them.  There are actually only a couple of areas south of Liberty that I can think of that don't have this critical mass yet, or won't have it very soon.  Main Street in particular has been plagued with bad publicity with closings and what not, but has also gotten very little attention for all of the new residents that have moved in and become part of the neighborhood.

Anyone else think that new bars may be opening a bit too soon? Especially with the jail tax failing, I worry that the same problems will plague the district this time around.

 

Valid fear, but one that has been accounted for and is being addressed.  Much of the problem that plagued Main the first time was lack of adequate planning.  And I say this not to criticize the first gen of bars on Main, but to point out that it was an organic development vs a planned development.  Also, we have the benefit of history, we know what can go wrong and can, and are, taking actions to prevent them as best we can. 

 

As for critical mass, we did not have anywhere near the development in 95 or 96 as we do today.  We did not have all of the planned development either, no one had even heard of 3CDC.  The tipping point for OTR we believe has already happened, this is just one more boost for an already growing community.  Now if you believe that there are not enough people to support these venues, only time will tell, but with Jean Robert building a restaurant only 2 blocks away, I feel comfortable about our chances.

 

I think it would be smarter to use the storefronts as gallery space for local artists while condos are sold in the area. The large numbers of new Condos and higher priced apartments could house 'stake holders' that keep an eye on the street.

Condos are being sold in the area, to the tune of about 100 per year in the Q, and Urban Sites is doing 2 more buildings right now on Main, Ball Furniture North and Ball South.  The storefronts are being turned into gallery spaces as well, but if you believe that the highest and best use for a place like Cue, Speakeasy, JHall, Exchange, Neons, Harrys, Pitifuls, Coopers etc. all of which have full liquor lic. is to become an art gallery.... well, you and I disagree.  Main is not an "either, or"  street, nor should it be.  I preach constantly that Main should have "a broader definition."  It should not be just an entertainment dist, nor just an arts dist, nor just a residential dist.  It can be all of that and more and it will, this is only the beginning.

How do two 21 year olds open two bars??  How do they have enough experience to run them? 

Probably years of drinking experience.

 

Coming from Oxford, how do they bring something new to the table?

Honest questions, I'm quite curious.  I'll hold off on criticism, but pool tables in a lounge sounds like a college kid idea.

They bring a belief that they can make it work.  Right now, that seems different.

 

Supporting what Rando said, I've lived a block from Main St for nearly 3 years and have never gone there.  I do go to Rhino's and Lucy Blue though.  They seem more neighborhood and less destination club to me.

Michael Redmond  and others,

 

I am a supporter of OTR and I do not think that the critical mass has been met. 

 

It seems irresponsible to me to allow two 21-year olds to open bars in the Main St. Distirict.  While this area has undergone a shift, it is not sufficient.  I have looked for housing in the area.  Much of the housing in the main st. disctirct is in an unmarketable condition (pathetically rehabbed in the late seventies or early eighties). 

While the areas around main st. are improving, they are not yet at a sufficient level.  The gateway quarter is a great idea, but it has yet to catch fire.  It is going to take time to change the perception of the neighborhood.

 

Why would you allow two unproven bar owners to operate on main st?  The owners of the Main St. buildings have a reputation for being greedy, but this seems short-sighted.  The last time OTR had momentum (before the riots), the neighborhood was attracting high tech businesses.  This time around, the neighborhood is attempting to attract condo sales.  I am afraid that we have not learned enough of a lesson.  The riots squashed the last attempt at gentrification: No one will buy condos in OTR if people are murdered on Main St.  The area should try to 'lay low' and avoid any kind of negative press, especially visible crime on Main St. which has happed too often in the past.

 

why is that irresponsible, the freedom to contract is a fundemental right in th United States and they are of a legal age. 

If experienced owners could not make it in the district when there was as much momentum, why are we giving twenty one year olds the chance? 

 

It is a free market, but discretion should be used for the good of the neighborhood.  The owners of Club Red were blamed for the most recent shooting.  While their business model was not totally on the 'up and up', what makes you think that these kids escape the same fate?  They are rich kids from Miami... lets see what happens when they meet the element that exists in those clubs... 

If experienced owners could not make it in the district when there was as much momentum, why are we giving twenty one year olds the chance? 

 

 

because they have a lease on the place and owna  liquor liscence, because that is how capitalism works.  should we give these crazy twenty year olds a chance on a website called google?