^ The problem for me personally is the product.  Neither I, nor thousands of others, will hesitate to go to clubs in areas of other cities much sketchier than OTR.  Would I venture into no-man's-land for a Purgatory, Exchange, or Red Cheetah?  Nope.  Would I for a Nation, a Fur, or a 1015 Folsom?  Absolutely, that's where my kind of music is.

 

 

Nick,

 

I did not mean that as a put down to you or your bar in particular, but the concept of keeping Main St a bar dist. without some sort of concessions to the needs and wants of the market.  Is Neon's meeting that need?  Bar, nightclub or whatever the market is saying we want something else.

they're bars. They shouldn't have to be reconcepted or changed,

Trust me, they should.  In business you have to follow the market, not your heart.

 

There are new entertainment districts opening up and old ones are re-emerging.  In the mid 90's there was no Newport on the levee, No Rookwood, no Union Center.  And I do agree with you that safety is the single largest reason that people are not coming to Main, but there is more to this puzzle, it is not as simplistic as to say put more cops on the street and they will come.

 

This is not a put down session for your club (I actually enjoy your club just as much as DV8) nor should it be a put down session for OTR.  I am a genxr who moved here from Mt. Adams and put my hat in the ring professionally just down the street from you.  I, like you have a stake in this neighborhood and I, like you am frustrated with it from time to time, but instead of giving up on it, I am trying to look for solutions to improve it. 

Newport on the Levee and Union Station are family-oriented destinations, not entertainment districts. You see high schoolers and families at both, primarily.

 

What the "market" wants is to be able to come down here and feel safe. If we were half as safe as Newport, we'd do twice as much business.

 

Take alchemize as an example then. I haven't heard anyone say the product is stale or insufficient. My customers tell me they're sick of being aggressively panhandled and sick of having their cars broken into. They're not tired of a certain dj or band that we book. And I'd say Purgatory and The Exchange are in the same book, and I'd certainly say that was true of Jeff Hall.

 

If Jeff Hall was so stale as a concept, why the hell are they packed at the Levee?

Bottom line is that they are successful venues.  I understand the safety issue, believe me.  I have this conversation with people everyday.  You think no one wants to spend a few hours down here because of safety, we have to convince people to live down here and we have been successful.  You can to.  But I relize that this place isn't for everyone and I do not market to everyone.  I don't go into a project and say that if I simply build a product that it will automatically sell, I have to build the right product for the right person. 

You and I have similar goals in different industries.  Both of us are trying to attract people down here, both of us are faced with the same issues of safety.  I will stick it out and I wish you would do the same.

One last thing, I went to Jeff Hall Saturday night with some neighbors of mine, haven't been in years but wanted to see how it fit into the new venue.  It was something different, if only in location.

One last thing, I went to Jeff Hall Saturday night with some neighbors of mine, haven't been in years but wanted to see how it fit into the new venue.  It was something different, if only in location.

 

So here's a question:

 

Since you've been to both the old and new location, would you say they're "packed" (Nick's word) at the Levee because:

 

    a) they have reinvented themselves and have evolved to to meet the market, or

    b) they merely moved to a "safer" location with the same formula?

 

If it's basically the same venue, then it supports Nick's argument.  If it has a significantly different vibe when you walk in as compared to the old location, then it doesn't. Besides, I suspect NOTL is in an area with a higher residential density for the target market than the old location.  Closer = more convenient. You also can't dismiss the new factor.  A new place opens up, people want to check it out. How it is doeing in six months is a much better indicator than how it's doing within the first 3 weeks.

 

 

And I think its cute that a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people. I'll be sure to let the Brookings people know we have, in fact, fixed that problem.

 

"a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people."

 

Quote me one.  Just pick one such person.

Newport on the Levee and Union Station are family-oriented destinations, not entertainment districts. You see high schoolers and families at both, primarily.

 

I wouldn't say that's accurate. Sure you see lots of teenie boppers, but I go there quite a bit.  I have yet to see lots of families in Arnies, Hofbrauhaus, Aoi, Brio, Mitchell's, Southgate House, Tropicana, and Cafe Istanbul.  So what qualifies as an entertainment district?  A cluster of adult restaurants, a couple of bars and music - plus you have Gameworks and a movie theater.  Sure sounds like an entertainment district to me.  If that mix existed on Main...it would be called an entertainment district.   I think some good points have been brought up.  There is a lot of competion out there that didn't exist 8-10 years ago.  You say we aren't NY, so maybe things happen at a slower rate, but you couldn't honestly be suggesting that change isn't at all necessary to stay vibrant. 

 

You may find it 'cute' that not everyone buys into the idea that Main Street is dying strictly due to safety and a shrinking population of the target demographic.  But I thought one of the assertions was that Main and entertainent venues as a whole are suffering because we are losing a key demographic at a rapid rate.  I think folks are just looking for data to support it.

 

And I certainly hear your point about safety, but Main Street was a much scarier place in 1996 IMHO than now.  Plus Alchemize is a bit different. You're kind of out there by yourself which certainly doesn't help with safety.

 

Personally, if it were somehow possible to place 5 new interesting complentary venues in place of some of the current offerings and leave everything else the same, I have no doubt people would return to Main.  The simple fact that people come for special events like MPMF suggest that it that the issue isn't safety for everyone.

 

If Jeff Hall was so stale as a concept, why the hell are they packed at the Levee?

 

Umm... is it packed with families and high schoolers?  :wink:  But seriously, I haven't been to the new location, but in the paper it said they were going to serve food as well as live entertainment.  I didn't think they served food before...I could be wrong. But a new location (which changes the atmosphere) and new menu suggests a tweak of concept to me and (as was said before) its "new". Empire and Fat Fish Blue were packed when they first opened too...

 

And like Michael, I hope you read this as friendly debate.  I think this is a really interesting conversation and am not trying to personally attack anyone.

 

Alabama,

 

They have not changed themselves to meet the changing market per se, they changed markets.  As Nick pointed out, Newport on the levee as a whole has a different target marget with an 'adult' entertainment segment.  Jeff Hall I hope will be able to sustain its crowds for the long run, Tony is a good guy and I wish him the best over there.  That being said, I and approx 5 or 6 others were there simply because it was a bar that we were familiar with in a new location.  Will I be there next week? No, I will be at Pitifuls on Main.

 

Second, I am not going to sit here and say that they will have just as big of crowds on Main St as they do on the Levee.  And is safety one of the factor behind this, absolutely, but so is the current selection and perception of venues on Main.  People will come because it is new but what will keep them at the levee? So far, nothing, well except the theatre.  Main st still can beat out the levee for some of the same arguments as above- it is where you send your 13 year old, and if I am a parent, I will keep sending my teenager to the levee for safety, my wife and I-well we can take care of ourselves and go to Main.

 

Getting away from this for just a moment, in my opinion, one of the other major downfalls of Main has been that there is no one reaching out and trying to attract major venues to Main St.  It is almost as though we are simply waiting for people to knock on our door down here.  We need to be proactive, we need to fight for business here, of all types.  A mix of business that fits into a 19 hour plan is what I believe can help bring Main to a point beyond what we were in the 90's.  I was speaking with some others in our office last night about this very discussion and the consensus was that due to the large amount of inventory that now is the time to reach out and redesign Main.

 

Reading through this thread I see the mention of residential as one of the driving forces, and it is.  But another factor is office.  Why would someone who lives in Kenwood or Montgomery drive to Main? Perhaps because they work here.  We are in talks, and next week will most likely have 14,000 sq ft of office space at the top of Main.  We are in talks for a huge, and I mean huge, new commercial piece , lets just say somewhere on Main.  Where do these people eat?  How about happy hour?  After work do you go home first and then meet your coworkers out for a drink? No, you leave the office and go to the closest bar you can find.  Are we capturing that business?  What is the number of people working in CBD on any given day?  Take 1/4 of 1% and that could drive Main.  Are we targeting those people?  We will.

 

One thing that I have been fighting for (and I think have lost the battle) is for the sale of Rothenberg.  The American Red Cross is currently looking for 60,000 sq ft and will be placing 100 full time empoyees and 50 part time employees into a new facility.  Rothenberg has 87,000 sq and we can supply up to 200 parking spaces.  What would this do for Main?  Once again, were do they eat, where do they go for happy hour, where could they shop for something that they don't get at home?  Unfortunatly as I said, the school decided not to sell Rothenberg due largly in part of efforts by the OTR Foundation to turn it into a neighborhood school, but this is another direction that should be explored.  There is more than just a residential solution to Main, it is time to get creative. 

 

And due to an overload of caffeine this morning, I will throw one more thing out there for the short term.  Has anyone ever gone to Kenwood Mall and seen an empty storefront?  Me either.  So why do we have one empty store front on Main after another.  When people drive up Main today, they would think nothing was here.  Why are property owners not leasing or even giving away display space to places high end, highly recognizable stores?  If we want to get a buzz out about Main, fill the store fronts.  What business would not take the opportunity for free or at least low cost advertising of their products?  Main would look cleaner, and the sense that there is something going on here may help to serve as a catalyst for even more change.

And I think its cute that a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people. I'll be sure to let the Brookings people know we have, in fact, fixed that problem.

 

"a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people."

 

Quote me one.  Just pick one such person.

 

If Nick doesn't chime in - my brother (age 27), a graphic designer would be one.  He moved to Columbus a couple of months ago.

 

My friend (age 25) would be another.  He's an artist, and is moving to Philly.

 

Another 28 year old graphic design person I know moved to San Diego awhile back.

 

A good friend of mine, an actuary (age 25) moved to San Franciso in 2002 or so.

 

Another friend, 26, moved to Chicago.

 

.... I could go on and I'm not even all that popular :p.  One day I found myself in a place where all my friends moved away.  Luckily I met some new folks who are just as block headed as me and won't move :). 

 

Look - I'm hopeful as anyone else and I'm not leaving tommorrow.  I think Michael and some others are doing an amazing job.  I'm starting to wish I never started this thread, cause yea, it's negative and a downer.  On the other hand, we need to look at this sort of stuff seriously and try not to gloss it over.  If you picked up OTR and plopped it down in any number of other cities, the leadership would probably do a much better job making it a safe, profitable, vibrant neighborhood.  I just don't have the faith I used to have that all the pieced will come together for a turnaround.  Certainly it's not all up to government - but they play a big part regardless of the product down there.

 

All that being said... Coopers makes a mean fish sandwich, so I suggest you visit and get one yourself.

Sorry, damn caffiene again.  I moved to Orlando at 25, moved back at 28.  My neighbor across the street on Mulberry, moved from Tampa, Next door moved from Columbus, down the street moved from Puerto Rico, next door to him from Mason (doesn't really count) and two doors down from him from South Dakota.  East Clifton condo, early 30's moving from Indianapolis to work for Lunken, Peete St home, in talks with a pilot from Net Jets, mid 30's moved from Chicago.

 

I don't deal with Relo but how many people is Gillete bringing in right now?  Federated?  My wife has been showing around a couple from Paris, who are going to work for Chaquita, condos here, mid 30's-up to a million, and downtown.  People do not necessarily move to Cincinnati because they want to, but because their job says they have to.  Now are they only hiring in the 50 plus crowd? Nope, I have a couple on Mulberry that work in Mason for P&G, 25 years old.  How much disposable income do you think these people have?  Well just look at their houses.  Are we capturing that market on Main?  Why not, they are the ones with the money.

And I think its cute that a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people. I'll be sure to let the Brookings people know we have, in fact, fixed that problem.

 

"a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people."

 

Quote me one.  Just pick one such person.

 

If Nick doesn't chime in - my brother (age 27), a graphic designer would be one.  He moved to Columbus a couple of months ago.

 

My friend (age 25) would be another.  He's an artist, and is moving to Philly.

 

Another 28 year old graphic design person I know moved to San Diego awhile back.

 

A good friend of mine, an actuary (age 25) moved to San Franciso in 2002 or so.

 

Another friend, 26, moved to Chicago.

 

.... I could go on and I'm not even all that popular :p.  One day I found myself in a place where all my friends moved away.  Luckily I met some new folks who are just as block headed as me and won't move :). 

 

Look - I'm hopeful as anyone else and I'm not leaving tommorrow.  I think Michael and some others are doing an amazing job.  I'm starting to wish I never started this thread, cause yea, it's negative and a downer.  On the other hand, we need to look at this sort of stuff seriously and try not to gloss it over.  If you picked up OTR and plopped it down in any number of other cities, the leadership would probably do a much better job making it a safe, profitable, vibrant neighborhood.  I just don't have the faith I used to have that all the pieced will come together for a turnaround.  Certainly it's not all up to government - but they play a big part regardless of the product down there.

 

All that being said... Coopers makes a mean fish sandwich, so I suggest you visit and get one yourself.

 

You completely misread what I was saying, just as Nick has completely misread this thread.  I was asking him to name one person on this board who doesn't think Cincinnati "has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people."  I haven't seen anyone say that.  It's a mischaracterization of the entire conversation, he's arguing against a straw man.

 

What I've seen everyone agreeing on so far is:

1) We're losing young people, and that's bad.

2) A thriving Main Street would be great for this city.

3) An entertainment district is important to many folks in the creative class.

 

What I've seen questioned here is:

1) Exactly how many young people are we losing?  The 28K figure appears to be inflated by nearly three times from any data any of us can turn up.  We'd love to see the figures Citybeat quoted so we can figure out where the discrepancies are.

2) What's the best way to achieve a thriving Main Street?  Just bring security and folks will come?  Alter the product and folks will come?  Market to the suburbs, or market to the city folks?

3) How important is a pure entertainment district to the young creative folks?  Is it truly make-or-break, or are the current dispersed offerings sufficient?

 

When you take people who agree with you on the big items (young people are leaving; Main Street is important; entertainment districts are good) and mischaracterize what they've plainly stated, it really, really turns people off.  At least it does me.

 

He said, "a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people."  He's arguing against a position nobody stated.  We're all on the same side here, and that kind of mischaracterization is completely unhelpful.

If crime and perception is the problem for Main St. then why does the entertainment strip have to be located there?  Why couldnt these clubowners/promoters collaborate and come up with a new location for their district....I dont know stick it out for a few more years and look towards the Banks..or hell what about the newly energized Fountain Sq. district.  These areas certainly do not have the same problems as OTR.

 

I dont see why OTR has to be the entertainment destination....I would like to see it return to its neighborhood form, maybe throw in some bakeries, coffee shops, grocery stores, restaurants, laundry mats, book stores, etc.  Why does every development in Cincy look at things as if they have to be a destination rather than a service.  I would venture to say that commerce is better suited when serving a steady clientle that demands that service rather than trying to attract customers from a far off place.

 

Lets fix the problems in OTR before we start to put the icing on the cake.  We needs residents and a fix for the social problems before we can continue to worry about the club scene there......just doesnt seem like an even comparison...people dying, drug dealing, prostitution, substandard living conditions...compared to a vibrant club scene...which is more important?

once again, there is a tyranny of the "or" and a genius to the "and" (stole that from a book).  Everything is interconnected here.  I do not think that we can have a safe neighborhood without a thriving business and residential community.  Empty store fronts and empty buildings lend to the continued decay of OTR.  Put eyes in the windows and feet on the street and crime will go down and vise versa. 

 

Every community will, or should, fight to make itself as attractive as possible and OTR is no different.  If there is going to be an entertainment district, I want it in OTR.  If there is going to be a new business coming to town, I want them in OTR.  If there are developers considering residential or commercial projects, I want them to build in OTR.  We must make ourselves as attractive as possible and right now, I will admit that we are indeed the ugly sister of downtown.  But we  clean up well-we can limit crime, we can fix up buildings, we can increase foot and drive by traffic, we can attract people to our community to live, work and play.

 

We can have a residential neighborhood AND an entertainment dist.  We can have nightlife AND service stores.  We can be residential AND commercial hotspot again.  We can do all of this, there are solutions to every problem, sometime the trick is just finding them.

Rando:

 

You can't just pick up and move an entertainment district. The money just isn't there, its not run by one person but dozens, etc, etc.

 

In general, I find Cincinnatians don't appreciate nightlife and what it does for urban areas. I find that spectacularly lame, but that doesn't make it less true.

 

And as I've said before, you don't have retail down here because there's not a market for it. The bar district is still, by far and away, the biggest generator of people traffic in OTR. A very busy Final Friday still doesn't draw the crowds that a Saturday night in the entertainment district does-- and that's once a month versus every weekend.

 

The market's not there for three reasons: 1) lack of a decent market rate residential base 2) lack of daytime foot traffic due to lack of offices/workers 3) crime and the perception of crime, which makes destination shopping a nearly impossible sell.

 

Look OTR has a plenty of nice boutiques and shops already (Greg's, Mainly Art, Vintage Poster, Urban Eden, etc.), but many of them pay practically no rent, and don't see much actual retail traffic (they pay the bills off clients, who often never step foot in their stores).

 

Again, I just find the entertainment district and nightlife in general to be woefully underappreciated in this town. And that's kind of funny, since we're just about the only ones left actually investing in the city with real dollars. The bars on Main Street are probably close to the only ones paying market rate commercial rents in the entire neighborhood, and plenty of people seem to be saying "Ah, who needs them?"

 

Finally, I'd say whether you like it or not, the spaces that were bars aren't going to become anything else. If they don't rent to new bars, they'll sit empty. The building owners sunk too much money into them converting them into bar spaces. They won't invest like that again, they'll sit on them, or put them up for sale (where they'll sit with huge price tags for years like Jump has). This means crime will become more commonplace on that stretch of Main, and that will impact the condos and galleries, too.

 

Sometimes I think Cincinnati's image of being "family friendly" clashes with the idea of attracting or keeping the "young and creative people." I would think there would be room for both, but the power brokers have a vice grip on things and maybe "young and creative people" are scary and dangerous to them which could lead to road they don't want to go. Personally, I think someone should try to open a strip club just to stir things up. People won't know what is more evil, strippers or a casino.

Nick,

 

I just am not going to be able to convince you otherwise and I respect and understand you opinions of the area.  However I strongly disagree with you assertions of the future of Main. 

 

There is a much stronger and wealthier residential base then was here when it was a purely bar dist.-you are just going to have to trust me on that.

 

Lack of offices and workers?

2005 absorption numbers were 598,000 sqft, we have a lower vacancy rate at 13.70% then Blue Ash at 15.90% and way lower than Mason at 21.46%

You mentioned Newport on the Levee, NKY vacancy at 32.05%, Net absorbtion 69,000, New Deliveries 0, under construction 0

Seven new building totaling 665,000sqft just in 05

CBD had its first new office tower in 13 years (and I am working on another)

You could take a rock and hit these people from Alchemize.

 

Crime, as I said, I agree. But look at just the past month or two.  Citizens on Patrol, OTR taskforce, new laws on the books to deter drug and prostitution buyers from wanting to come to the area (car seizure)

 

Quick question, what is our anchor right now for Main, I can name it for everyplace else.  We once had anchor clubs that were nationally known, how about now?  It is so easy to point out basic short comings of Main that could be fixed but what is being done to fix them.  Why in 91 when Neons opened up and all of the things you said were certainly true then, why did we see a rise in this District over the next several years?  Why did people come then?  Was it safer, more people living on Main?

 

I represent some of these spaces that you are talking about and once again, I disagree.  Is it an uphill battle, sure-will it be easy, no-will we be successfully, I have staked my professional career on it.

 

Oh Jesus... are you actually trying to tell me there's a healthy base of office workers in OTR?

 

Look, I'm not gonna argue this stuff anymore, its pretty pointless... and no offense, seriously, but you're a realtor, and if there's one thing I know about this area after years of experience, its that realtors view the area in some spectacularly unrealistic terms. I understand, it comes with job description.

 

Best of luck to you, but I really think you're managing to offend a lot of people by trying to blame the businesses as opposed to the location.

Well first of all if you don't think that you draw from outside of a 3 block radius then I believe you are sorely mistaken.  For CBD those are the figures for end of year 05.  Are you telling me there is a healthy base of office workers in Newport?  In Rookwood, in Mt. Adams?  What do those numbers look like for Northside?  they don't even show up on the radar screen.

 

I have tried to be honest with you as to what OTRs problems are and granted, you and I see things through different eyes.  Yes sir, I am a Realtor, and those weak residential #'s that you are talking about, well, that is part of what I do for a living. Those office numbers you are refering to is the picture that Colliers International is painting to both National and international clients, maby they lie, but somehow I doubt it.  However in addition to being a Realtor I am a resident, I am someone who works in OTR-for OTR. I am involved in trying to address those safety concerns that you are talking about, I am involved in trying to bring more businesses down here, I patronize those businesses as well.  I live OTR Nick, everyday, allday.  I know what it is and what it is not, yet I still do not think I am the one with unrealistic expectations, it seems to be you in your expectation that Main can support bars and bars only.

 

I am not trying to offend you or your business because I do think there is a place for nightlife on Main.  However you are offending an equal number of people here by tearing down OTR.  This is my home, I live here, I work on Main, I represent a fair amount of the inventory now on Main, so if you are telling me that I am somehow the offensive one by defending OTR well then so be it.

Uhhh... right. And yet, if I move to Northside, how much do you want to be my business doubles? So, something in your math doesn't add up.

 

If you think pissed off, departing business owners who leave after horrific experiences with OTR (and let's not forget I lived there for five years, too) are what's tearing down OTR, you're out of your mind. What destroying OTR is violent crackheads bothering everyone who comes down there constantly, and city leadership that doesn't do anything about it. Until they really get serious about cleaning it up, anybody investing money down there should rethink it, because they're more than likely gonna end up getting burned. That's reality-- no one needs to spin it, or try to put things in a positive light. Until something REAL is done to clean this area up, NO ONE should be pumping money in here unless they've got it to spare.

And no, Michael, I don't think Newport or Rookwood have many office workers, but they have the other two-- they have a market rate residential base, and they're able to attract destination shoppers. My point is that OTR doesn't really have any of the three: the market rate residential population is low, there isn't a big cluster of daytime office workers in OTR, and because of safety concerns, its nearly impossible to bring out destination shoppers.

Ok, sorry you feel that way.  I wish things could have worked out for you and your business and maby one day in the future it can.  Best of luck to you Nick in whatever you do.

Best of luck to you, but I really think you're managing to offend a lot of people by trying to blame the businesses as opposed to the location.

In general, I find Cincinnatians don't appreciate nightlife and what it does for urban areas. I find that spectacularly lame, but that doesn't make it less true.

 

 

Wow.  I wonder how many businesses survive for the long haul when they blame the consumer when business isn't strong and then get offended if the consumers tell them they could improve their product...wow...

Best of luck to you, but I really think you're managing to offend a lot of people by trying to blame the businesses as opposed to the location.

In general, I find Cincinnatians don't appreciate nightlife and what it does for urban areas. I find that spectacularly lame, but that doesn't make it less true.

 

 

Wow.  I wonder how many businesses survive for the long haul when they blame the consumer when business isn't strong and then get offended if the consumers tell them they could improve their product...wow...

 

Or how long politicians can survive when they argue against things folks haven't actually said.  If you think pissed off, departing business owners who leave after horrific experiences with OTR (and let's not forget I lived there for five years, too) are what's tearing down OTR, you're out of your mind.  Yeah, that's a fair summary of Michael's position.  Christ.

"However you are offending an equal number of people here by tearing down OTR."

 

That's what he said, that's what I'm responding, too.

 

And somewhere, the only thing my customers tell me about "improving my product" is that they're sick of being harassed, threatened, attacked, and having their cars broken into.

 

Finally, I'm not running for Council, next time or anytime. So the 'politician' thing is pretty weak.

"However you are offending an equal number of people here by tearing down OTR."

 

That's what he said, that's what I'm responding, too.

 

Yeah, offending folks on an internet forum is what Michael believes is the root problem in OTR.  Again, a nice, fair summary of his position.

 

Honestly, I do wish you would run for council - I'd vote for you again and donate to your campaign again - but I understand why you wouldn't - hell, I wouldn't dream of it.  But "politician" wasn't a rip at all - pointing out that you continue to argue positions nobody's stated - that was the point.

Also, I don't blame the consumer at all. My customers are great, and I'm sick of putting them through the headache of coming down here.

Also, I don't blame the consumer at all. My customers are great, and I'm sick of putting them through the headache of coming down here.

 

Fair enough.  But current customers are not the only ones to listen to if the goal is to increase business. 

And I think its cute that a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people. I'll be sure to let the Brookings people know we have, in fact, fixed that problem.

 

"a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people."

 

Quote me one.  Just pick one such person.

 

If Nick doesn't chime in - my brother (age 27), a graphic designer would be one.  He moved to Columbus a couple of months ago.

 

My friend (age 25) would be another.  He's an artist, and is moving to Philly.

 

Another 28 year old graphic design person I know moved to San Diego awhile back.

 

A good friend of mine, an actuary (age 25) moved to San Franciso in 2002 or so.

 

Another friend, 26, moved to Chicago.

 

.... I could go on and I'm not even all that popular :p.  One day I found myself in a place where all my friends moved away.  Luckily I met some new folks who are just as block headed as me and won't move :). 

 

Look - I'm hopeful as anyone else and I'm not leaving tommorrow.  I think Michael and some others are doing an amazing job.  I'm starting to wish I never started this thread, cause yea, it's negative and a downer.  On the other hand, we need to look at this sort of stuff seriously and try not to gloss it over.  If you picked up OTR and plopped it down in any number of other cities, the leadership would probably do a much better job making it a safe, profitable, vibrant neighborhood.  I just don't have the faith I used to have that all the pieced will come together for a turnaround.  Certainly it's not all up to government - but they play a big part regardless of the product down there.

 

All that being said... Coopers makes a mean fish sandwich, so I suggest you visit and get one yourself.

 

You completely misread what I was saying, just as Nick has completely misread this thread.  I was asking him to name one person on this board who doesn't think Cincinnati "has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people."  I haven't seen anyone say that.  It's a mischaracterization of the entire conversation, he's arguing against a straw man.

 

What I've seen everyone agreeing on so far is:

1) We're losing young people, and that's bad.

2) A thriving Main Street would be great for this city.

3) An entertainment district is important to many folks in the creative class.

 

What I've seen questioned here is:

1) Exactly how many young people are we losing?  The 28K figure appears to be inflated by nearly three times from any data any of us can turn up.  We'd love to see the figures Citybeat quoted so we can figure out where the discrepancies are.

2) What's the best way to achieve a thriving Main Street?  Just bring security and folks will come?  Alter the product and folks will come?  Market to the suburbs, or market to the city folks?

3) How important is a pure entertainment district to the young creative folks?  Is it truly make-or-break, or are the current dispersed offerings sufficient?

 

When you take people who agree with you on the big items (young people are leaving; Main Street is important; entertainment districts are good) and mischaracterize what they've plainly stated, it really, really turns people off.  At least it does me.

 

He said, "a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people."  He's arguing against a position nobody stated.  We're all on the same side here, and that kind of mischaracterization is completely unhelpful.

 

My fault - I did misread what you said - I thought you wanted examples... 

 

I think there's just a lot of frustration coming out...  I think you are all a great bunch of people.  *Some* folks tend to gloss over the issues sometimes... It's unfair to lump everyone into a group however (no matter how cute we all may be:).

 

I wish Nick would stick around in OTR - but I think he's reached the end of his rope...  and I don't really blame him.

 

Hopefully Michael will keep working on the residential and business end of things and at some point there will be a decent market for the kind of places we all want down there. 

 

... hope I haven't gone and offended anyone too badly. 

Thanks, look, I understand what folks are trying to say, and believe me, I understand what its like to not want to give up on this stuff. I mean, I'm walking away now, and really have very little to show for it.

 

But I see a neighborhood that is chewing up residents and businesses and spitting them back out. OTR is a place with amazing potential, everyone sees it, including me. But to reach that potential requires something outside the abilities of small business owners and residents... it would require a city leadership waking up and changing the situation on the ground by buying up the vacant buildings en masse, cracking down on bad landlords by flooding the area with inspectors, putting cops/cameras/ambassadors on every corner to chase away criminals, and redistributing the low income housing and social services throughout the city and region.

 

Here's what's most frustrating about OTR: I think you could turn it into a spectacular neighborhood in TWO YEARS TIME. Again, its that potential people get addicted to.

 

But its not going to happen. Its an ILLUSION of being close. Because the people in positions to do that, never will. The neighborhoods don't want them to, the suburbs don't want them to, conservatives don't want them to, liberals don't want them to. There's no sense of urgency, and there's no desire to take up such a difficult, controversial task.

 

And as long as that situation is what is, that potential is nothing but a mirage. People will lose a lot of money, possibly get hurt physically even, over what is essentially an illusion. Reality has a way of catching up with all of us. So I don't like it when people, with wonderful intentions, buy into the myth that things can get better here. I hate to sound so pessimistic, but this is probably the best council you'll ever get in terms of urban core issues, and they're not going to do it. No one will. Its a sucker's bet at this point.

Nick,

 

What brought you here?  Now I know the history of issues in OTR pretty well over the past few years so what was the climate like at the moment that you decided to open the doors at Alchemize?  Why would you come here and make an investment in an area that is troubled at best?  Now what is different today?  You said the counsil is better today, and I agree.  I can assure you that there is more market residential in OTR and CBD both than when you first opened your doors.  You said in your blog that you feel like you have wasted the last 5 years of your life, well that puts us at 2001.  How was OTR then?  Why yes then, and no now?

 

If someone like yourself can be convinced to enter into the OTR marketplace with bleaker numbers than today, a more inept city counsil, why do you think that we can not do it now? 

 

"They don't have the slightest idea what it would take to reverse the staggering loss of young people from this city, and they have no interest in listening to ideas outside of their own." 

Take your own advise here, don't be so quick to jump on anyone with, not even an opposing idea for Main, but something a little different.

Well, probably because I was wrong. I thought they would clean up the area after the riots, and they didn't, they let it get worse.

 

Do I think people will fall for the potential and come in to OTR? Of course. They were before I did, and they will after me.

Well lets hope so.  As I said before, I will not convince you otherwise about Main, my only hope is that sometime in the future Main will look attractive to you again and hopefully you will decide to give it another chance.  But please remember that as you leave, others are staying and even more are coming, so please don't bash the community on your way out (the media doesn't like the competition).  Good luck.

Rando:

 

You can't just pick up and move an entertainment district. The money just isn't there, its not run by one person but dozens, etc, etc.

 

In general, I find Cincinnatians don't appreciate nightlife and what it does for urban areas. I find that spectacularly lame, but that doesn't make it less true.

 

I would also agree with your comment about Cincinnatians not appreciating nightlife (maybe because all the young people are fleeing).  However....too expensive?  Sure its run by dozens of people.....then you work with the a developer at the Banks or the director of Fountain Sq and try to find a concentrated amount of space to relocate a number of bars/clubs.  Yes this will cost a little, but like you said how much you wanna bet your business doubles or even triples.  Would that then be enough to overcome the initial relocation costs.

 

You have to spend money to make money...now I am not a savvy business person; however if location is your problem then find a new one.  I am not suggesting moving to the glamorous Newport (businesses are silently failing their too :-o) or the burbs for that matter (no nightlife whatsoever).  But why not look elsewhere in the center city.

 

I have even heard that city leader's plan for Lower Price Hill is that of an entertainment district of sorts...wouldnt you love something like this (a unique urban location that is ripe for redevelopment).  All I am saying is that there are more options than simply shutting down or moving to the burbs/Newport (one in the same in my mind).  The city has a lot to offer and you of all people should know that.

Damn...Lower Price Hill..I thought that place fell off the face of the earth.

 

Turn Colerain Ave. in Camp Washington into an entertainment district! Cheap rent and much lower crime :)

Sigh... okay, first off, I have talked to the square people, and there IS NO concentrated area for bars/nightclubs down there. Period. There are three spots available in the CBD center, and in each case, to open a bar, you'd probably need at least 500k, and in one instance, probably 5 mil. Anybody who blows that kind of money to open a bar in Cincinnati needs to have their head examined. Fountain Square has become everyone's answer to everything. Look, there aren't any practically any new spaces coming available down there. What's there now is it, practically.

 

And The Banks? Yeah, right...

 

And I really don't think any developer would have any interest in building an entertainment district in Lower Price Hill or Camp Washington.

 

Trust me on this, as a person who works in this business: you can't relocate this entertainment district. And to me, its ridiculous that we're even talking about it. This district has been criminally underappreciated for years, and I'm afraid that will only continue.

^And do you think the way to fix Main Street, then, is strong police committment plus moving social services to a more appropriate area (like Queensgate)?  Do that, and the businesses won't get choked off like they are now?  I believe that's been your position, just wanted to make it clear...or am I missing pieces?

 

I tend to divide it into three areas:

 

1) More cops, moving social services, cracking down on blighted/abandoned/trouble properties via inspections, licensing, and housing docket... that's what you have to do to stop the bleeding.

 

2) Validating parking, new lighting, and key property acquisition/development (The Emery Theatre, Jump) would be the positive moves to actually start getting people excited about coming back.

 

3) Big picture stuff could really change the game: Broadway Commons development, mass transit.

 

But even just

Rando:

 

In general, I find Cincinnatians don't appreciate nightlife and what it does for urban areas. I find that spectacularly lame, but that doesn't make it less true.

 

I would also agree with your comment about Cincinnatians not appreciating nightlife (maybe because all the young people are fleeing).

 

We all have our own perceptions and opinions on things, but to go as far as using the word "Cincinnatiians" is a bit too much. How can you speak on behalf of Cincinnati. ONE example, I have a friend that moved here from Milwaukee and because of his time in Cincinnati he has transfered 5 other Milwaukeeans to the area and they all love it here. These people are in their mid-twenty's by the way and live in the downtown area. Of course I can't sum up the argument here using this example, but it is an example of one circumstance.

 

By the way Rando, how can you generalize bar life in Cincinnati for Cincinnatians for this age range when you are not 21 yet?

I'm not 21 either but I know people that are 21 and over and the complain all the time about the lack of nightlife, especially dance clubs and live music.

 

The only people that seem to be impressed with Cincinnati are people from really small towns that move here because they don't have much to compare it to, and even then they still seem to bitch about all of the bums.

 

I've been to Windsor a few times, where I'm legally allowed to drink and that place was AMAZING. I spent so much money there--bad for my wallet, excellent for their economy. There's 3 or 4 streets in downtown Windsor that are nothing but strip clubs, dance clubs, bars, restaurants, etc then they have the casino where I also squandered money. I know that they have a big population from Detroit to draw people from but my point is that when everything is centralized it makes it more of a destination.

 

That's really weird that you have so many friends from Milwaukee that moved here and like the nightlife; I heard Milwaukee has a great bar/nightlife scene

I remember Windsor well...it is amazing when you're 18. Smoking fake Cubans, hanging out in casinos, hitting on skanks. It's awesome. I wish Cincinnati were more like that.

I'm not 21 either but I know people that are 21 and over and the complain all the time about the lack of nightlife, especially dance clubs and live music.

 

I think the assertion was that people in Cincinnati don't appreciate nightlife.  So it sounds like you are offering anecdotal evidence to suggest this is not true and agree with Cincy-Rise.

 

Out of curiosity, do the people you know go to Main?  Do you know why/why not?

I'm not 21 either but I know people that are 21 and over and the complain all the time about the lack of nightlife, especially dance clubs and live music.

 

I think the assertion was that people in Cincinnati don't appreciate nightlife.  So it sounds like you are offering anecdotal evidence to suggest this is not true and aggree with Cincy-Rise.

 

Out of curiosity, do the people you know go to Main?  Do you know why/why not?

Yeah, I know a few girls that go to Red Cheetah, that's probably about it. I happen to know a lot of people that go to The Poison Room and said it's really great. I wanted to go check it out because I know a guy that plays in a band there but that's downtown not OTR (or atleast it was? maybe it's changed...I know the name did).

 

Windsor may be a meat market and there may be skanks but you know what...that environment attracts people and Windsor happens to barely have any crime. We went to a few places in Windsor that were pretty upscale too...but their entertainment is very diversified, they have something for pretty much everybody.

Turn Colerain Ave. in Camp Washington into an entertainment district! Cheap rent and much lower crime :)

Now _that_ would be cool.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the thought just crossed my mind.  Do you realize this topic wouldn't even be being discussed if the ballpark had been built at Broadway Commons!  Main St. would have been much more than it ever was as an entertainment district if the ballpark was there.  I am sure the residential would have shot through the roof as well.

 

Pity it was stuck on the riverfront while a huge economic development opportunity was completely blown for OTR.

^---- "People won't be able to find the stadium" (at Broadway Commons) - Marge Schott

 

  Water over the dam, but yes, I agree. What a lost opportunity.

 

  Perhaps some of the investment in Main Street in the 1990's came about due to anticipation of Baseball at Broadway Commons?

 

 

Let me make sure we are all on the same page here, what does an entertainment district mean to everyone here?  Any definitions?  I know what it means to Nick, but the nature of entertainment districts and destinations has changed over the years.  Now they include Activity Generators, Activity Extenders and Activity Inducers, not just a one dimensional draw.

 

So what does this mean for Main St?  It is not competitive as it exist now so how do we get it there?  In every problem lies opportunity.  So far on this thread Nick has identified the problems, anyone care to explore the opportunities that are here on Main?  I am not saying that anyone here necessarily has unwarranted pessimism, but this is not just blind optimism either-I can, and am willing to describe our plan in depth.

I am not saying that anyone here necessarily has unwarranted pessimism, but this is not just blind optimism either-I can, and am willing to describe our plan in depth.

 

Michael, I would love to hear your plan!

The problem is that not enough people care. Neighborhoods all deteriorate for the same reasons. City leadership does not care enough. We need front page articles in the Enquirer and top story 11 o clock news "CINCINNATI CITY LEADERSHIP DOES NOT CARE ABOUT OVER THE RHINE" get people's attention, make city officials look bad. Call them out on their bullshit as publicly as possible.

I (one of many, many people) worked with a friend of Jim Tarbell's to get the site option on the ballot by collecting a lot of signatures around the city.  Unfortunately, the position of having the stadium at Broadway Commons was apparently not articulated well enough and people voted for the riverfront.  Neon's opened in '91, I think, and Japp's and Rhino's started within a couple of years after that (it's hard to believe it started with just 3 places).  By '94-'95 it had most of the bars/clubs opened so I would say this was not influenced by the possibility of a stadium as that idea came later.  When the idea was floated, there were a lot of people looking at warehouses/buildings who were planning on jumping in on the speculative loft market, but unfortunately it did not happen.  Hell, Peter Bronson was even on board after getting information on the transformation of the LoDo area in Denver.  There has been some writing on whether the riots would have hit that area like they did if the stadium had been built there by 2000.  I consider putting the stadium where it is one of the bigger blunders the city has made in the past 20 years.  At least they have created entertainment business for Kentucky, but the Ohio side has seen very little benefit, other than the In-Between expanding, and GameDay opening.  As owner of the Reds, I will say Castellini is giving me hope for the riverfront that I have not had in 6 years.

^---- "People won't be able to find the stadium" (at Broadway Commons) - Marge Schott

 

   Water over the dam, but yes, I agree. What a lost opportunity.

 

   Perhaps some of the investment in Main Street in the 1990's came about due to anticipation of Baseball at Broadway Commons?

 

 

^--- All true, but in addition, the concept of Baseball on Broadway was around before that. Do you remember when Jim Tarbell's group painted a baseball diamond on the parking lot? (It is still there - you might be able to find some faded paint.) I can't remember the year, but I think it was around 1991. It was well before the stadium tax debate ever happened.