I do and you may be right - I thought the date was later but time flies.

Well lets do this in steps.  In order to understand where we are going lets take a look at where we have been.

ULI numbers

 

1992, three clubs were in the dist compared to 14 clubs in 1996.

22,500 people attended the 14 clubs and over 3000 each week were coming here just for lunch.

 

of those numbers, 30% were coming from outside of Hamilton County.

 

Problems the area faced in 96

Parking (49%)

Safety (45%)

Panhandling (27%)

 

North Main

Panhandling (81%)

Safety (74%)

 

When Main was at it's peak in 96, we still had these same concerns.  Did the riots put those numbers over the edge, of course, but that was 5 years ago.  Things are different now, demographics has changed.  The ULI study concluded that Market Rate housing would be key to moving Main forward and I can tell you now, we have a tremendous advantage over the 96 Main St. in the amount of Market Rate housing throughout Main and its surrounding areas.

 

 

Michael, thanks for the quantitative facts.  Also, I was in a picture in the Enquirer with Jim Tarbell when they painted the field on Broadway Commons (just out of happenstance). I can't remember exactly but it was in the early to mid 90's.

 

As far as the stadium on the river, if it would have come across as sold, i.e. including all the Banks stuff (residential, entertainment, etc.) I would not have a problem with it.  The riverfront was sold as both stadiums needed to be there to support the infrastructure that would be needed to support the central riverfront. The citizens did their part and voted the tax in, but here we sit 10 years later with no development.

A big problem right now with Main is the lack of visibility.  You dont drive past it, weak advertising, lack of a big time tenant (one that could draw them in from all over).

 

I feel that there are some relatively cheap and easy ways to create a directed marketing/advertising campaign for Main.  UC's new Bearcat Transportation System (BTS) is just getting under way.  There is a weekend night route that seems to have the most hype around campus.  It shuttles students (for free) from UC to Mt. Adams...then NOTL....then Main....then back to UC.  It makes continuous loops for the route.

 

I would think that some concentrated efforts on/around UC's main campus would do a lot.  You would need to promote specific performances/activities/college nights and combine it with a knowledge campaign on BTS.  This would allow students to see the 'hip' things going on and realize how easy it is for them to reach this destination (No DD necessary or parking).  I currently have a hard time finding anything out about happenings on Main (needs to be much easier for the majority to catch on), but I cant seem to turn a corner or flip through a publication in Cincy without seeing ads for NOTL.

 

Maybe its just me but the businesses in/around UC seem to be doing quite well, and the area continues to grow off of this young creative base.  OTR and Main are just a hop-skip-and a jump away.....OTR needs to jump on board this bandwagon.

I certainly agree.  What are we doing to capture this market? (Nick chime in if I am wrong here) NOTHING!  What can they get here that they can't get somewhere else? Nothing!  And to sit back and say that they simply do not appreciate our venues enough is a terrible misread of the marketplace and a recipe that will put Main right were Main is today.

 

Old style thinking like this has proven a miserable failure.  However we do not have to continue forward over the next 5 years in the same direction that we did in the last.  The BTS idea is a great one, the targeting of UC is a must.  I spoke with Bullet and Susan, the owners of Courtyard yesterday about Main Street Live's marketing efforts and they sited the lack of initial funding within the group to launch a campaign.  Then why not reach out even further than Main for ad dollars?  When I came down to the bars I would always start at Chases (now Alive One) in Mt. Adams and then come down to Main.  I have gone to Pitifuls on Main and then jumped over to the Levee.  There seems to be an aversion to thinking regionally in this City, it is always us vs them.  We can be inclusive, we can market together.  With the BTS it makes all the sense in the world to say these are all of the offerings at all 3, going on 4 venues, go to them all.

 

Main Street in its attempt to market to only a select market has made itself the odd man out.  Once again, correct me if I am wrong, but Main Street isn't on many peoples weekend itinerary anymore while other destinations in the immediate area are.  Main needs to accept responsibility for its shortcomings and simply correct them.  We still have a seat at the entertainment table (although an empty Seat) and we need to begin to think smarter about how to draw more people in.  A draw that includes people only coming here Fri and Sat night from 10:00 till 2:30 is not enough.  We can not survive on 9 hours a week, even if we doubled that it still is not enough.  From morning through night, Main St. needs to have offerings to attract people to it.  Unfortunately, over the past several years, no one has been asking, things need to change and we have the power (although questionalbly the will) to do it.

I'm sorry, but that's just flat-out wrong...

 

This is not a marketing problem. Its a problem of crackheads, car break-ins, and shootings. Its a problem of having blighted, ugly properties like the Jordan Carryout building in the middle of the entertainment district.

 

These things scare away 18-25 year old females, who are the lifeblood of any bar district. That's the market, and they demand being able to have some drinks in safety.

This is why I sighted the numbers from the ULI study in '96. Safety was a problem then, safety is a problem now. 

 

City Beat May 2000

Creating a Cultural Entertainment Corridor in Over-the-Rhine

 

A group of neighborhood men linger along the 12th Street sidewalk. Trash litters the pavement. It's a warm weekday afternoon, and the block between Race and Vine streets in Over-the-Rhine has the depressing appearance of a ghetto eyesore.

 

There are rundown storefronts, a corner bar and carry-out stores stocked with beer and wine. A sign hangs above a single doorway: "Sleeping Rooms for Rent. One Person Only. Ring Bell."

 

Still, there's an urban vitality to 12th Street that's undeniable: constant foot traffic, the buzz of cars and mingling noises from open apartment windows.

 

Back on the block between Race and Vine streets, watching the crowd outside Jordan's Carry-Out, it's easy to see that change is inevitable.

 

Jordan's has been here for a while Nick, even before you moved your bar in and people were coming then.

 

Main St right this minute is closed, people are in the streets for second sundays, it is actually pretty crowded, crackheads still are here, car break ins still could happen, and wasn't there a shooting just the other day on 14th and Race?  But they are here at 2:30 on this fine Sunday, they are over at Washington Park also for Opera Dogs and on top of that it is a miserable weather day. 

 

My point is that they drew a crowd in the same exact environment that you are talking about-How?

 

Or perhaps I misread you, do you mean that I am wrong that you are marketing to UC students, Main St. does have an ad campaign?  Because it did in 96, and everyplace else does now.  So did I miss the ads?

 

Main St right this minute is closed, people are in the streets for second sundays, it is actually pretty crowded, crackheads still are here, car break ins still could happen, and wasn't there a shooting just the other day on 14th and Race?  But they are here at 2:30 on this fine Sunday, they are over at Washington Park also for Opera Dogs and on top of that it is a miserable weather day. 

 

 

It was good time too.  Recommend to anyone interested to check it out next month.  Had chance to try a Lemon Basil sorbet...rather interesting - but good :-).  There was a parade from Washington Park where the Opera Dog competition was.  I was on Main at the time and it was pretty cool seeing a huge crowd of folks with their dogs coming up the street.  At one point there must of been at least 100+ dogs milling about.  My dog was in heaven - didn't know which dog to sniff first...lol.

 

A plus for the neighborhood was that it looked like every news crew made it out, so hopefully there will be some positive press.  Mallory passed through about that time so he may have been the reason, but either way its all good. :-)

 

 

I think there may be a marketing problem.  My husband and I go to Main St. sometimes.  Our friends are usually surprised because they said there is nothing on Main St. anymore.  I have been hearing this since 2002 or 2003, and I tell them that is simply not true.  Even with more places open, my friends were surprised to hear that places were still open and doing business. 

 

My husband and I were down on Main St. this weekend.  I do have to say that we did not see any police officers around.  This was the first time I had experienced this - usually we see a few.  I hope this was an off night.  While Main St. seemed okay, some of the side streets looked a little sketchy.

What are you talking about?!!

 

Michael, I'm sick of having this argument with you... please just let it go.

 

Yes, Jordan has been there, and it has always hurt the district. After the riots, it got even worse, like everything else down here. The riots chopped the entertainment district in half, and it never came back. People decided it wasn't worth the risk.

 

Yes, OTR still brings people out for special events-- like Midpoint or Final Friday. But you can't build a market around that. Second Sundays is a scale-back of Markets on Main, which couldn't build crowds on a weekly basis.

 

Whatever... dude, doing business in OTR flat out sucks most of the time, and I'm not the only one saying so. You can try to spin it a million ways, you can insult the businesses here and say they aren't marketing (that's complete bs, btw-- we spend over a thousand dollars each MONTH on advertising, not to mention all the press/awards we get). Most of these bars offer a great product, and work very hard. Quite frankly, they're practically the only business owners down here who have invested real money, pay market rate rents, and bring consistent crowds down here. Maybe you could just say thank you instead of tossing these careless insults about our marketing and concepts out there.

 

And we're not the only ones... Red Cheetah has their Club Kiss promotion with Kiss 107, RBC/Japp's had their Phat Tuesday with the WIZ (which I wasn't supportive of, but it is promotion), Purgatory promotes all the time on radio. Main Street Live bought new signage for all the participating bars, worked out shared cover promotions on Fridays, buys regular print ads,gets shuttle buses for Party at the Point, works with beer sponsors for us as a collective group, and prints banners for lots of events. Like any small business group, we don't have a fortune to spend, but we do the best with what we have. Nice to know you're so spectacularly unaware, but Dan Dell does an excellent job with Main Street Live. But customers and prospective customers complain CONSTANTLY about the violence and the risks-- but apparently, you don't think that's the primary issue.

 

I'm a business owner, you're a realtor. Therefore, I think its safe to say I know slightly more about running a business in OTR than you do. But again, I'm sick of arguing with you about it, I'm pretty offended by some of the stuff you've written.

 

But please, by all means, keep blaming all the business owners who get sick of the crackheads, the violence, the panhandling, and the car break-ins. It is totally our inability to market ourselves. Absolutely. Funny how whenever we move, we make a lot more money. But again, clearly, TOTALLY our fault.

 

This Saturday, a friend of mine who posts here sometimes told me that he walked out of my bar to get a slice of pizza next door. In that short walk around the corner, he was accosted FOUR TIMES.

 

You don't market around that. THAT is what's killing business down here. Please stop trying to insult business owners down here and try to somehow insinuate that they're incompetent or poor promoters just because they may not be your cup of tea.

If this thread stresses you out so much

a) Why on earth do you read it and

b) Why do you keep coming back to post?!?

 

You don't like OTR, you can't run a business down here, all the Main Street business owners are the Donald Trumps of the bar business with an excellent product with no room for improvement,  the Cincy market in general doesn't appreciate an impeccable, perfect bar scene product that is Main Street.  Those in the Cincy market that do get it go there grudgingly because there are car break-ins, panhandlers, prostitutes, crackheads, drug dealers, ugly buildings, Jordan's Market, shootings, muggings, and people peeing in the street.  We get it.

 

Move to your new pad in Clifton, relocate your business and triple your revenue.  Enjoy life.  Sounds like you need to let OTR, and maybe Cincinnati go.  Lifes to short to cause yourself this much misery...

If this thread stresses you out so much

a) Why on earth do you read it and

b) Why do you keep coming back to post?!?

 

You don't like OTR, you can't run a business down here, all the Main Street business owners are the Donald Trumps of the bar business with an excellent product with no room for improvement,  the Cincy market in general doesn't appreciate an impeccable, perfect bar scene product that is Main Street.  Those in the Cincy market that do get it go there grudgingly because there are car break-ins, panhandlers, prostitutes, crackheads, drug dealers, ugly buildings, Jordan's Market, shootings, muggings, and people peeing in the street.  We get it.

 

Move to your new pad in Clifton, relocate your business and triple your revenue.  Enjoy life.  Sounds like you need to let OTR, and maybe Cincinnati go.  Lifes to short to cause yourself this much misery...

 

If it's a lot harder for a business owner to make money on Main street (which it probably is...hence them leaving) then how can these business owners possibly fund future improvements to attract more people to their venues around Main?

 

Bringing in new businesses is important but the worse a neighborhood looks and the worse the crime is, the more risk they are taking and people are reluctant to take high risks. I don't understand why people keep walking around the crime and blight issue, it makes no sense.

 

If marketing was OTR's biggest problem it seems like the problem would have been solved a long time ago, I mean after all it is a neighborhood right in between the two most economically important areas of town, Clifton and Downtown. I don't understand how you can criticize businesses that leave for an opportunity to make more money, they have bills that they have to pay.

I don't think SomewhereOTR is criticizing Nick.

 

It sounds like he is asking why Nick is posting the same thing over and over, in response to other people posting the same response over and over.

I'm sorry, but that's just flat-out wrong...

 

This is not a marketing problem. Its a problem of crackheads, car break-ins, and shootings. Its a problem of having blighted, ugly properties like the Jordan Carryout building in the middle of the entertainment district.

 

These things scare away 18-25 year old females, who are the lifeblood of any bar district. That's the market, and they demand being able to have some drinks in safety.

 

All that I know is that when out of town students go somewhere to shop they go to Kenwood (not downtown), when they go somewhere to drink and party the go to Mt. Adams, Mt. Lookout, NOTL (there is very little if NO talk of Main with anyone).

 

There IS a problem with marketing and those that are being targeted.  Lets be honest the radio isnt what it once was.  I would venture to say that 18-25 age group listens to a variety of other sources than radio(CDs, iPods, XM)...thus the strategy is subdued.  I am not blaming the businesses for a bad product; I feel that downtown has great shopping and entertainment that is equal to and in most cases better than anywhere else in the city.  However, more needs to be done to create an image and sense of security for those that wish to use these assests.

Personally, safety and not a lack of marketing keeps me away from Main Street at night.  I am fully aware of the bars and enjoy them quite a bit.  But, I do not feel safe walking home from those bars at 2 a.m, especially if I've had a drink or two.  Over the last three years, my trips to Main Street have drastically decreased and I live only a few blocks away.  I usually don't go unless I'm meeting friends or in a large group. It is also one of my last choices to take people from out of town. 

 

I don't care what flashy ads you show me or what specials you run.  Show me three or four uniformed police on the street, better lighting, and better cab service and you'll get my business again.  I think if the bars should be faulted for anything it would be not hiring a small private security force and investing in more lights and signage, not for failing to place ads.  This is something the city should be doing if it cared enough but it's obvious it doesn't. 

 

 

 

I'm a bit late to the discussion but I really enjoy that people are kicking around the idea of a Casino to pay for stuff, or extolling the nightlife it will provide, for two reasons:

 

1) It is such a stupid idea.

2) Local politicians are taking it seriously.

 

Now I like a lot of our local politicians, even those who are taking it seriously.  I'm mostly amused that advocating such a position ten years ago would have been as political viable as advocating legalized prostitution.  Let's face it- there is nothing socially redeeming about convincing people to give their money to a major corporation for a few hours pleasure.  And the idea that we as a City are reduced to such a level in order to raise revenue shows both that people are okay with the idea of taking money from the poor and ignorant, and that we are pathetic to have sunk to such a level.  By the way, the City of Cincinnati isn't, nor has it ever been, in competition with Lawrenceburg or Rising Sun Indiana.  Ask yourself this question: Who is going to come to Cincinnati for the casinos?

 

Here's why casinos are so stupid- the economic multiplier that may occur from gambling revenues in Las Vegas, Monaco or Macau won't occur here because those places are destinations based on a long-term association with gambling, and we are not.  We aren't going to turn into Vegas (and would we want to?) and so it's not going to work, and it of course, cheapens us.

 

But if we no one really cares that it cheapens our City to contemplate such an action, let's get serious and consider trying an industry that would put us in a comparatively advantageous situation vis-a-vis others.  Let's consider legalized prostitution (in brothels, no streetwalking).  Think about it: there's not a convenient place in the United States that currently offers such an environment, so we have little competition there.  Plus, the revenues should be easily collectable with the right laws.  We have a convenient model to follow (Amsterdam) and by making it a government monopoly we could capture all the revenues created for maintenance of the business first with the rest for the public (and the girls of course.  Better they get paid well than Steve Wynn).  Plus what Russian broad wouldn't jump at the chance to come to the U.S., put her time in, make some cash and finish an American citizen rather than give hand jobs all day long to Pakistanis in Dubayy?  We'd get the choicest picks!

My personal experience with the Main St entertainment district has pretty much been what Nick was relating.  I never loved the cheesy chain dance bars that were the main drawn when I first moved here in 99, but that's where the girls were so that's were my friends and I went.  The streets used to be packed and there was a line to get in everywhere.  Even though I didn't love the bars, Main St itself was a good time because it was a happening place.  It was a draw that got a lot of people from the outer suburbs down to OTR two nights a weekend.  Almost none of the people I would meet when I was out lived in the city, they came there for the bar scene.   

 

After the riot, the police were afraid to police, and things definitely went downhill.  Perception is reality and when  girls started to not feel safe going there, guys don't go either.  But there is more to it than just the perception.  I'm not a girl from the suburbs and I don't let the negative stories the local media seems to love scare me away either; however, between my experiences and those of my friends, I don't bother with it any more.  I still go out downtown, but not on Main St.  In the last few years when I've gone to bars on and around Main, I'm usually followed from wherever I park by panhandlers and they can be pretty aggressive.  I have had 4 friends get their cars broken into (one of them twice) and one guy I know who lived down there got jumped and robbed going home one night.  I understand that it is an inner-city area and to some degree those things will happen, but when most of your clientele is coming there from suburbs and they have other nightlife destination options like Mt. Adams, Mainstrasse, etc.  where you don't get panhandled, your car is generally safe, and you don't have to walk past thugs hanging out in front of a liquor store to go from one bar to the next, then people start choosing the other options.  My fiancé and her friends used to always want to go down to Main to hit the dance clubs and now none of them even mention Main St. because they do not feel safe walking around down there.  It used to be that if a bachlorette party happening in Cincy they were automatically heading to Main St, but now you now see bachelorette parties everywhere from Mt. Adams to Mt. Lookout because girls are scared away.   I think the attitude most people from the greater Cincinnati area have about going downtown at all - as evidenced by the recent Enquirer survey - demonstrate the challenge that exists to draw suburban people into OTR at all, let alone late at night.  Sure there are more condos opening and more people moving and living downtown today than there were in say 2002, but most of those condo's start in the 300's.  I can not imagine that many of those are being sold to 21-25 year olds who make up the core of the bar demographic.  For Main St  to become a viable entertainment destination again it has to be able to pull people in from the outer suburbs, where a study mentioned earlier in this thread show the population is moving, and that won’t happen until the city decides to clean up the area. 

 

Could there be better marketing for the nightlife district as a whole?  Maybe, but would that really matter to the 21 year old girl who had some crackhead following her down the street, pulling on her arm demanding money the last time she was there or to my friend whose car was broken into twice when they are deciding between Main St or Mt Adams on a Saturday?  I have a great deal of respect for Michael’s opinion on this board, but I have to disagree when he says these things do not play the major factor in the decline of nightlife on Main.   I know that's why I don't go anymore. 

 

I think PRidge sums it up well... a lot of people on here might look at say, Red Cheetah, and think its not a very compelling product. But we're not the target market. Nightclubs need a lot of attractive 18-25 year old girls to really move drinks. Those girls love bars like Cheetah and Japp's, but they got scared away from OTR because of crime.

 

And Rando, I think you overestimate marketing here. Its not like Kenwood or Newport have excellent marketing efforts. People go there because word gets around that you can shop or dance there in comfort, which you can't in OTR. Its not an issue of advertising. Hell, I'd say Main Street does a great deal more promotion-wise than either of those spots.

I think the future of Main Street is as a neighborhood, not an entertainment district.  I really like some of the bars down here, and I frequent them.  But I would be happier to see them winnowed down to a few unique bars, the vacant upper floors of the buildings renovated into market-rate apartments, and a couple of the low-income buildings turned to market rate for a better mix of incomes that can support more retail.  In other words, use the street north of 13th as a model for the blocks from Central to 13th and the side streets.  The added eyes on the street, and the lack of a bar scene that spikes the money and crowds (and bums and criminals with it), will settle down the panhandling and crime as it already has on the northern blocks.  The resulting neighborhood would both be safer and seem safer because it would have a critical mass of market rate tenants and unique stores, restaurants, galleries, etc.  It would be very attractive to folks who want to live in the city but are currently living in outer neighborhoods because they perceive Main Street as unsafe. 

Kendall:

 

Here's why that can't/won't happen.

 

1) The buildings below 13th are very different from the ones up North. They're much bigger, especially the storefronts.

 

2) They've already been rehabbed into office space during the digital rhine era, and the building owners won't cough that up again.

 

3) The Entertainment District, while woefully under-appreciated, is still the biggest tax and revenue generator in OTR for the city.

 

4) The market was stretched thin by the construction on North Main, and will only be stretch thinner once the Vine Street stuff opens. Its hard to imagine being able to sustain that many more condos.

 

Again, I wish more OTR folks were boosters for the Entertainment District, but that doesn't seem to be the way things are heading.

I see what you mean about the buildings south of 13th, but there are a few key ones in that area that are either vacant (and not turned into office space) or low-income that could be upgraded.  I'm thinking Davis Furniture, Rhino's, NY Dry Cleaner, and a couple smaller ones and, of course, "The Jordan" a/k/a 1200 Main Street, currently owned by Rhine-Main Apts.  The building at 12th and Walnut (Lucy Blue) is also an attractive building, though not on Main.

 

The units going in on Vine will spread the market thin in the next couple years, but at the same time the vast improvement in the neighborhood they will bring will be a positive force for Main Street, even though it's two blocks away.

 

As for taxes, don't forget that residents pay income taxes too.  I would guess my little 6-unit building generates around $8,000 (more than $130k/acre) per year in city income tax alone, not counting anything in the storefronts.  Plus investment in underused buildings will bring a net increase in property taxes.

 

I'm certainly not opposed to the bars (I drink at them at least a couple times a week, and bring friends), but it seems like a better (and easier) long-term solution for Main Street to continue to transform into a vibrant urban neighborhood.

The buildings that I think would make for great market rate housing: Jordan Carryout building, NY Dry Cleaners Building, and Mary Magdalene House Building. There actually are apartments above where Empower was, Kaldi's, where Diva's was, and above Lucy Blue. In fact, back in the day, those are the buildings everyone fought over to get apartments in the entertainment district.

As for taxes, yeah, the bars pay a lot more in property taxes, but we also have earning tax revenues, and tons of permits. We generate the most economic impact in OTR by far.

But if we no one really cares that it cheapens our City to contemplate such an action, let's get serious and consider trying an industry that would put us in a comparatively advantageous situation vis-a-vis others.  Let's consider legalized prostitution (in brothels, no streetwalking).  Think about it: there's not a convenient place in the United States that currently offers such an environment, so we have little competition there.  Plus, the revenues should be easily collectable with the right laws.  We have a convenient model to follow (Amsterdam) and by making it a government monopoly we could capture all the revenues created for maintenance of the business first with the rest for the public (and the girls of course.  Better they get paid well than Steve Wynn).  Plus what Russian broad wouldn't jump at the chance to come to the U.S., put her time in, make some cash and finish an American citizen rather than give hand jobs all day long to Pakistanis in Dubayy?  We'd get the choicest picks!

I'm onboard with this!  Seriously, this would be awesome - best idea for downtown yet!

As for taxes, yeah, the bars pay a lot more in property taxes, but we also have earning tax revenues, and tons of permits. We generate the most economic impact in OTR by far.

Got any data on that Nick?  There's still _some_ manufacturing/industry in OTR not to mention offices etc.  I think that there is a tendency in this city (and many others, we're certainly not alone) to overlook 'boring' old school businesses like manufacturers, retail, professional services, and, yes, even social service agencies to concentrate on the 'creative class'.  Bar payrolls are generally pretty low and permit costs are a small part of the big picture.  I would venture to say that the Kroger on Vine, for example, pays as much or more in total taxes (property, earning, and income) as all of the bars on Main Street combined, although, admittedly, that's conjecture on my part.

Michael, I'm sick of having this argument with you... please just let it go.

 

Nick,

 

You need to calm down a bit, this is just a discussion and the last I checked this is a forum for such a thing.  Technically, we are both business owners here on Main and we both have a stake in this neighborhood and want to see the best for it.  If you believe that Main is doing and has done everything right and needs no changes, Ok, I will shut up then and just do my thing (finding tenants for vacated locations on Main), I am not here to beg for your permission or acceptance.

 

"There was a parade from Washington Park where the Opera Dog competition was.  I was on Main at the time and it was pretty cool seeing a huge crowd of folks with their dogs coming up the street."

 

I was at the Ft. Washington and my wife had a showing so we missed it.  My dog Lola would have definitely won the singing competition.

If it's a lot harder for a business owner to make money on Main street (which it probably is...hence them leaving) then how can these business owners possibly fund future improvements to attract more people to their venues around Main?

 

Bringing in new businesses is important but the worse a neighborhood looks and the worse the crime is, the more risk they are taking and people are reluctant to take high risks. I don't understand why people keep walking around the crime and blight issue, it makes no sense.

 

I don't think anyone is 'walking around the crime and blight issue'.  In fact, I think pretty much every post has acknowledged that that is a legitimate issue/concern.  I think the difference in opinion is that some think it is the only problem, while others think it is only one part of a larger issue for Main.  In large part because the crime and blight has been an issue on Main for the last 15+ years.  Back in 1995/96, you didn't see anyone north of Kaldi's...talk about blight.  People even went to the Warehouse and The Loft on Vine which was far worse than Main is now.  A member of band was shot and killed in the mid 90's after a set on Main and people still went.  Im not saying that crime/panhandling isn't an issue, but it has always been an issue. At least I know it was in Main's glory days.  I think what some of us are asking is what was it that allowed Main and OTR to overcome its stigma to become a successful destination spot then, but not now.  Sure the riots had a alot to do with Main's downturn, but that was over 5 years ago. (a generation in club years)  Some of us just happen to think that Main as a whole (and this isn't an indictment on any particullar club/bar) could use a more compelling product.  An entertainment area functions in the aggregate, unless you have a killer anchor to carry the more run of the mill destinations.  As a product overall, some of us think Main could improve.  That's all. Some disagree and that's cool.  Its no skin off my back whether any of the bars/clubs choose to consider an alternative point of view.  Its their business to manage to success or failure.  The market will separate the wheat from the chaff and Main will ultimately be stronger because of it.

 

If marketing was OTR's biggest problem it seems like the problem would have been solved a long time ago, I mean after all it is a neighborhood right in between the two most economically important areas of town, Clifton and Downtown. I don't understand how you can criticize businesses that leave for an opportunity to make more money, they have bills that they have to pay.

 

First, marketing is more than promotion. Its positioning, pricing, place (insert marketing 101 stuff here) and they all work together.  Since Main suffers from a relative weak 'place' (e.g. safety concerns) it needs a pretty darn compelling positioning, pricing, promotion to overcome that shortcoming.  That's not easily solved and I don't think anyone has suggested that it is. But sticking to an old formula that worked 10 years ago, may not work today.  That's all we're saying.

 

Finally, I was sarcastic at the beginning of my last post, but I was being serious at the end.  I certainly do not fault a business for leaving and trying their fortunes elsewhere.  In fact, I think they should.  OTR is not for everyone.  If one were opening a new restaurant and could choose from Northside, Oakley, OTR & Clifton; OTR would likely be dead last as a choice for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.  But, sometimes people want to make a difference, so they choose a place like OTR.  My guess is Nick made this choice in part because he wanted to make a difference and I think that is very admirable.  However, I do think that if the stress gets to the point that one is unhappy (which my read is - and maybe I'm wrong - is that Nick is quite unhappy with running a business in OTR) then maybe it is time to move on to what will hopefully be greener pastures.  That's all.

 

I am not trying to belabor a point with my postings, but I live in OTR, I have invested in OTR.  I like it here.  I mean no animosity to anyone, but I also do not see a reason to leave unchallenged a position I disagree with.  After all, it is a discussion board...

 

Well said.

If it's a lot harder for a business owner to make money on Main street (which it probably is...hence them leaving) then how can these business owners possibly fund future improvements to attract more people to their venues around Main?

 

Bringing in new businesses is important but the worse a neighborhood looks and the worse the crime is, the more risk they are taking and people are reluctant to take high risks. I don't understand why people keep walking around the crime and blight issue, it makes no sense.

 

I don't think anyone is 'walking around the crime and blight issue'.  In fact, I think pretty much every post has acknowledged that that is a legitimate issue/concern.  I think the difference in opinion is that some think it is the only problem, while others think it is only one part of a larger issue for Main.  In large part because the crime and blight has been an issue on Main for the last 15+ years.  Back in 1995/96, you didn't see anyone north of Kaldi's...talk about blight.  People even went to the Warehouse and The Loft on Vine which was far worse than Main is now.  A member of band was shot and killed in the mid 90's after a set on Main and people still went.  Im not saying that crime/panhandling isn't an issue, but it has always been an issue. At least I know it was in Main's glory days.  I think what some of us are asking is what was it that allowed Main and OTR to overcome its stigma to become a successful destination spot then, but not now.  Sure the riots had a alot to do with Main's downturn, but that was over 5 years ago. (a generation in club years)  Some of us just happen to think that Main as a whole (and this isn't an indictment on any particullar club/bar) could use a more compelling product.  An entertainment area functions in the aggregate, unless you have a killer anchor to carry the more run of the mill destinations.  As a product overall, some of us think Main could improve.  That's all. Some disagree and that's cool.  Its no skin off my back whether any of the bars/clubs choose to consider an alternative point of view.  Its their business to manage to success or failure.  The market will separate the wheat from the chaff and Main will ultimately be stronger because of it.

 

If marketing was OTR's biggest problem it seems like the problem would have been solved a long time ago, I mean after all it is a neighborhood right in between the two most economically important areas of town, Clifton and Downtown. I don't understand how you can criticize businesses that leave for an opportunity to make more money, they have bills that they have to pay.

 

First, marketing is more than promotion. Its positioning, pricing, place (insert marketing 101 stuff here) and they all work together.  Since Main suffers from a relative weak 'place' (e.g. safety concerns) it needs a pretty darn compelling positioning, pricing, promotion to overcome that shortcoming.  That's not easily solved and I don't think anyone has suggested that it is. But sticking to an old formula that worked 10 years ago, may not work today.  That's all we're saying.

 

Finally, I was sarcastic at the beginning of my last post, but I was being serious at the end.  I certainly do not fault a business for leaving and trying their fortunes elsewhere.  In fact, I think they should.  OTR is not for everyone.  If one were opening a new restaurant and could choose from Northside, Oakley, OTR & Clifton; OTR would likely be dead last as a choice for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.  But, sometimes people want to make a difference, so they choose a place like OTR.  My guess is Nick made this choice in part because he wanted to make a difference and I think that is very admirable.  However, I do think that if the stress gets to the point that one is unhappy (which my read is - and maybe I'm wrong - is that Nick is quite unhappy with running a business in OTR) then maybe it is time to move on to what will hopefully be greener pastures.  That's all.

 

I am not trying to belabor a point with my postings, but I live in OTR, I have invested in OTR.  I like it here.  I mean no animosity to anyone, but I also do not see a reason to leave unchallenged a position I disagree with.  After all, it is a discussion board...

 

 

Maybe the crime doesn't necessarily have to correlate exactly to Main street's decline. There's no crime statistics graphs that directly match ones showing when people have just "had enough of it".

 

I understand what you're saying about marketing and I agree that those are all important factors in the success of a business. Advertising is just one aspect.

 

I just don't understand how OTR's problem with nightlife is the establishments themselves. How are you going to be able to get people to invest (what, 500k-1million or more? I don't know) in top of the line venues when investors are worried about taking risks in crime ridden areas. Also, if a business owner has to lower their prices to attract more patrons then they're still losing money. They're losing money that they could have invested in upgrades to stay competative. If they have to spend a lot more money on advertising compared to clubs in much safer areas, then they're also at a big disadvantage. The crime issue just seems to be the weakest link in the chain to me.

I understand, I just don't understand how--if one of OTR's major problems with nightlife is the establishments themselves, how are you going to be able to get people to invest (what, 500k-1million or more? I don't know) when investors are worried about taking risks in crime ridden areas

 

David,

 

First step, ask.

Second, get lease commitments contingent on other factors, one may be that after x% of a particular block is leased or purchased then they exercise the contract, therefore hedging their risk at the outset.

Third, Weighted leases based on Location, Value, Performance, Product Life Cycle, Tenant Space rquirements, Regional uniqueness and Tenant Credit- Not just $x per sq to whom ever comes first.

Fourth, get away from individual locations hiring a police officer or security, and move towards inclusive policing as opposed to one officer at one location.

 

Lastly, it is not just the establishments-we need nightlife, we need bars, we need clubs, we need security, but we still need more.  To have a critical mass, we need a critical mix of destination locations.

 

And Rando, I think you overestimate marketing here. Its not like Kenwood or Newport have excellent marketing efforts. People go there because word gets around that you can shop or dance there in comfort, which you can't in OTR. Its not an issue of advertising. Hell, I'd say Main Street does a great deal more promotion-wise than either of those spots.

 

Listen, my goal is not to constantly argue about this topic, but rather offer some suggestions on ways that in my opinion would help this entertainment district out.  Is it such a bad idea to directly market to college students rather than hoping that they listen to specific radio broadcasts?

The only bar I can think of that has an advertising advantage is The Pavilion. They even have TV commercials.

Wasn't quite sure where to post this, but this pretty much sums up how I feel about OTR, Main Street, and Cincinnati in general...

http://www.citybeat.com/2006-06-14/editorial.shtml

 

"The conversation continues, both inside your head and on the street: Cincinnati sucks. Cincinnati rocks.

 

Each day offers events and encounters to change your mind. Sometimes your opinion of this city changes within hours."

 

Sucks.  Rocks.  Both.  Indeed!

^ BLASPHEMOUS!!!

^Okay, you're right; sucks is rather harsh.  Perhaps frustrated...disappointed...unrequited is better.  We all see so much potential, maybe I'm just impatient because I want it to happen now.

 

He's about 10 days out from Desdemona, and you see on his blog (nickspencer.blogspot.com) that he's desperately seeking people to petition Cincinnati City Council to cut him some slack on venue rental fees and required police and ambulance fees, which they do with festivals they like (Taste of Cincinnati being the most recent example). Maybe Spencer shouldn't have waited until 10 days out to freak about paying $25,000 in city fees, but maybe someone at City Hall ought to understand how much buzz this festival is generating among the national music press and what a colossal embarassment it would be for everyone if it crashed and burned without city leaders lifting a finger. 

 

 

"....which they do with festivals they like...."

 

 

 

Interesting.

 

 

Main Street stroll shows steps toward revitalization

Investments show promise, but concerns remain

Cincinnati Business Courier - June 16, 2006by Dan MonkSenior Staff Reporter

 

Her friends told Dr. Sarbori Bhattacharya that she was crazy for wanting to start her practice in the 600 block of Main Street downtown.

 

After all, the building she chose for her new stress-management center was just a few doors from a rundown boardinghouse and a seedy bar where police made regular runs for drugs and prostitution charges. 

 

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2006/06/19/story6.html

I heard part of an NPR story yesterday that was about Cody's Bookstore, near UC Berkeley, and how it was closing.  The reason stated was that todays students are not interested in the "urban experience" of Telegraph Ave. (what was a dynamic shopping street) and they especially are not interestd in being hassled on the street for change etc.. 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5494806

At the end of the story they said that most students now shop at an area called "fourth street" http://www.fourthstreet.com/ which is a upscale shopping area (with no panhandlers around).  The photos of "fourth street" reminded me of Newport around Newport on the Levee, which I visited this past weekend (they were packed). 

 

OTR cannot survive as a destination shopping or nightspot when the competition offers hassle-free environment.  I almost never go to Newport on the Levee, but apparently lots and lots of people love it.  When I went, there were sanitized "street musicians" and magic acts in the open space, and hundreds of people standing in line to go to movies and the caberet.  When leaving, I noticed lots of people on the real streets of Newport walking from spot to spot, having a good time on a summer night.  You just don't see that in OTR...

Jimmy,

 

What would you have said about shopping in Newport 10 years ago? That would have been one of the last places I would have thought to put a retail destination center. From strip clubs to prostitutes, panhandlers, crime, you name it, Newport had it.

 

I relize that OTR in both the past and present is a crime ridden place but I am not willing to say there is no hope for the future. If OTR has no hope, no future, no possibilities of pulling out of the mess that it is in, then it should be abandoned and bull dosed, we should start over. I however do not believe this to be the case. Louisville had the same issues on their 4th street also, look at it today http://www.4thstlive.com/

 

I took the Metro the other Friday night & it kinda hit me that it was sort of strange to have the same schedule on a Friday night as on Monday thru Thursday.

I know that most of the old Main St crowd didn't take the bus. One of the problems is that the service ends too early for bar hopping or club concerts.

Minneapolis (long time ago) started running their busses ti lafter 2 AM to curb drunk driving. Seems like a good argument. Considering that parking is an issue in the Main St area, better Metro service might help there, too.

But, as we all know, only losers use public transportation.

If OTR has no hope, no future, no possibilities of pulling out of the mess that it is in, then it should be abandoned and bull dosed, we should start over.

 

We did that with the West End.  I would be real curious to know crime statistics for the area of the West End known as "City West" compared with the older parts of the West End. 

My guess is that it's a lot lower but the crime probably migrated to other nearby areas. You can bulldoze the buildings but not the criminals. Burglaries are probably high though since a criminal is obviously going to assume people living in City West have more money.

I relize that OTR in both the past and present is a crime ridden place but I am not willing to say there is no hope for the future.  If OTR has no hope, no future, no possibilities of pulling out of the mess that it is in, then it should be abandoned and bull dosed, we should start over.  I however do not believe this to be the case. [/url]

I'm with you mike, I just don't know if there is the collective will to get it done as there obviously was in Newport.

I dont know what rock you guys have been living under, but the City of Newport is STILL a dump!!!!!  Look no further than one block off the big-box development (NOTL) and you will see the decline and crappiness of Newport.  The only difference between Nky's approach towards redefing itself and Cincinnati's, is that Nky has total disreguard to history and people.  They have gotten awfully proficient at practices of displacement and gentrification, whereas Cincinnati is trying to go about solving its issues in a more respectful manor.

 

Its easy for Nky to do these sort of things because they are just Nky, and do not get the same attention that Cincinnati does.  Cincy could not simply announce that they are going to teardown 6 square blocks of OTR in order to build upscale shopping, eating, and living.  The shit would hit the fan and the city would be in a bad way.  However, Nky can do this and more without even getting noticed or publicized (negatively) for their actions.  We all know that nearly every story that we hear about Nky or the burbs is positive and the stories for Cincy are negative...when it is simply not that cut and dry.

 

BTW, NOTL is not doing as great as everyone may be lead to believe.  Tax revenues are not what they expected, sales are lower, a number of businesses have closed their doors (been replaced/shutdown again...much like OTR).  Oh yeah and violent crime is even prevelant at  :-o NOTL!  Just a month or so ago there was a major disturbance at NOTL that involved guns and the evacuation of the big-box mall...(oh I mean urban oasis).

I dont know what rock you guys have been living under, but the City of Newport is STILL a dump!!!!!  Look no further than one block off the big-box development (NOTL) and you will see the decline and crappiness of Newport.  The only difference between Nky's approach towards redefing itself and Cincinnati's, is that Nky has total disreguard to history and people.  They have gotten awfully proficient at practices of displacement and gentrification, whereas Cincinnati is trying to go about solving its issues in a more respectful manor.

 

Its easy for Nky to do these sort of things because they are just Nky, and do not get the same attention that Cincinnati does.  Cincy could not simply announce that they are going to teardown 6 square blocks of OTR in order to build upscale shopping, eating, and living.  The shit would hit the fan and the city would be in a bad way.  However, Nky can do this and more without even getting noticed or publicized (negatively) for their actions.  We all know that nearly every story that we hear about Nky or the burbs is positive and the stories for Cincy are negative...when it is simply not that cut and dry.

 

BTW, NOTL is not doing as great as everyone may be lead to believe.  Tax revenues are not what they expected, sales are lower, a number of businesses have closed their doors (been replaced/shutdown again...much like OTR).  Oh yeah and violent crime is even prevelant at  :-o NOTL!  Just a month or so ago there was a major disturbance at NOTL that involved guns and the evacuation of the big-box mall...(oh I mean urban oasis).

Dude I don't know about you but when I go to Newport I see a lot of really nicely restored homes. NOTL is right on the river and I think that kind of development is suitable for that location, but thats just my opinon. I don't think Newport should have ever been a "mall" but it's definitely an ideal center for nightlife. It's a good central location and you get an amazing view of the river and skyline. Btw I think that gun incident at NOTL turned out to be a hoax; it was just a loud noise.

'ideal center for nightlife':

 

-1 Movie theatre

-1 bar...2 on a good day (Haufbrauhaus would be 3)

-1 Club

-Shopping closes early

-No nice riverwalk to enjoy the river (PPB does not count-both Cincy and Nky)

 

This does not sound ideal to me...it actually sounds quite similar to the scene at Cincinnati Mills, but closer to downtown.  Main St offers these amenities and MUCH more (except movie theatre).  The only difference being is that NOTL is isolated from the rest of the urban context and set up like a castle where the buildings on the levee block out the surround distressed areas.  Sounds an awfull lot like a suburban development to me.  The last times I remember going to NOTL at night I remember thinking that it would be fun, but soon was dissapointed with little to actually do.  As for the restored homes they do exist....however there are far more that they just want to tear down, because of the terrible shape that they are in.

BTW, NOTL is not doing as great as everyone may be lead to believe.  Tax revenues are not what they expected, sales are lower, a number of businesses have closed their doors (been replaced/shutdown again...much like OTR).  Oh yeah and violent crime is even prevelant at  :-o NOTL!  Just a month or so ago there was a major disturbance at NOTL that involved guns and the evacuation of the big-box mall...(oh I mean urban oasis).

 

Well, I'm just reporting what I saw with my own eyes on one single visit.  No scientific research here, but what I saw was: Hundreds if not thousands of customers walking arm in arm, eating ice cream, laughing, watching street performers, teenagers meeting up, waiting in long lines to get into theaters and restaurants, and generally hanging out and having a good time as well as long lines of cars waiting to pay $5 to park in a nearly full parking garage (a very poorly planned one certainly). Meanwhile, I am on Main Street regularly, and usually see a few dozen people ambling about, and get asked for change a couple times per visit, called a name or asked if I "need anything".  My only point was that most people prefer the mall-like atmosphere at NOTL, and I guess I may live under a rock in OTR, but as someone who prefers OTR, ... that is kind of a revelation to me.

'ideal center for nightlife':

 

-1 Movie theatre

-1 bar...2 on a good day (Haufbrauhaus would be 3)

-1 Club

-Shopping closes early

-No nice riverwalk to enjoy the river (PPB does not count-both Cincy and Nky)

 

This does not sound ideal to me...it actually sounds quite similar to the scene at Cincinnati Mills, but closer to downtown.  Main St offers these amenities and MUCH more (except movie theatre).  The only difference being is that NOTL is isolated from the rest of the urban context and set up like a castle where the buildings on the levee block out the surround distressed areas.  Sounds an awfull lot like a suburban development to me.  The last times I remember going to NOTL at night I remember thinking that it would be fun, but soon was dissapointed with little to actually do.  As for the restored homes they do exist....however there are far more that they just want to tear down, because of the terrible shape that they are in.

NOTL is not the absolute best entertainment district, no. But it has potential and the geography gives NOTL a huge advantage. Believe me I wish success to Cincinnati a lot more than Newport but you just can't beat that view. I'd much rather go to the AMC there than to see a movie in Western Hills, Bond Hill, Kings Mills, Or West Chester. You have more options for what to do afterwards compared to the competition (well...except Union Center but that's too damn far anyway). I'm not trying to prove NOTL is the greatest asset to the region or anything but it does have some advantages. I'm pretty sure there's more bars than that too..you forgot to mention the restaurants.

I do not consider restaurants as part of nightlife since they close early as well...but I guess I could have listed it like the shopping:

 

-restaurants close early

 

and my point is that NOTL is a decent place.....but it is not god's gift to the world as everyone makes it out to be, just as you said yourself.

Dude I don't know about you but when I go to Newport I see a lot of really nicely restored homes.

 

The Mansion Hill area immediately SE of NOTL is killer, but go a few blocks south and go west of Monmouth and you will see what the bulk of Newport is really like.

I'm a fan of NOTL, but that's because it caters to me in a number of ways, and its shortcomings don't affect me:

 

1) I can walk there from Walnut Hills - it's a long walk, a couple miles, but it's downhill, through the parks, over the bridge...it makes for a fun hike with my wife, great for a beautiful day.  Then dinner, a movie, drinks, and a cab home.

2) It's got a variety of food.  Not a huge variety - but enough that you can get pizza or fish or a burger or pasta or Turkish or sushi or just a smoothie and popcorn with ice cream afterwards.

3) It's got a big-ass bookstore.  Few things are as engaging as a big-ass bookstore, chain or no.  Great way to kill time before the movie.

 

And its shortcomings:

1) Not a great variety of retail - and I couldn't care less.  A bookstore's all I need.

2) Not a lot of bars - and I couldn't care less.  Everybody's got Maker's Mark, and everybody's got ice.  I just want a quiet corner to chat with my wife or with friends while getting lit.

3) Things close down early - but so do I.  You aren't going to see me out whooping it up at 1:30 in the morning - I'm normally smoking when I'm out, and I don't smoke often enough that it doesn't really take it out of me, so I'm normally winding down early.

 

All that being said, it's still just an occasional thing.  I prefer downtown for a night of dinner and drinking, no doubt.  But for me personally, I'm very pleased it's there.