I also wish Nick well in whatever is to come.  I've only been to alchemize 3 or 4 times, not my type of bar, but had a good time and will most definately check it out once it reopens.  Nick, even though I'm upset that OTR has lost another business, I still greatly respect you and everything you have done for the City (PLEASE bring back Desdomana). 

 

That being said, what is so bad about alchemize moving to Covington, other than the OTR factor?  Covington is no different than say Corryville or Northside.  Covington is facing many of the same problems that Cincy faces.  Putting it in the same group as WC and Blue Ash is ludicrous.  Some people need to put aside their Kentucky hatred and take off the blinders.  Covington and Newport are not the devil and a business moving there is no different than moving from neighborhood to neighborhood.  Covington and Newport are just another neighborhood in the city, IMO, and just as an important key in developing a better quality of life in our city.  And of course Covington was going to be more involved with these smaller businessses than Cincy, they are a much smaller city with less fluff to worry about and can focus more on small business.  With alchemize and Madhatter right there along with hopefully a Madison Theater under new management, add a few more music venues then Covington can really have something going on.

I'd MUCH rather Alchemize be in Covington than West Chester or some place like that. Covington and Newport are basically the south side of Cincinnati to most people. I consider Newport/Covington to be part of Cincinnati's core. People in the inner city of Cincy are still closer to it than they would be to alchemize in the suburbs of Cincinnati. Sure Cincinnati is taking a loss but this is a capitalistic society and when you're apathetic, you lose. This is one more thing to put pressure on Cincinnati and say hey you need to step your game up.

David:

 

I think that area could be turned into an entertainment district for sure, and it would be nice with the Duke Center there and all that parking.

 

However, to do that, you'd need a developer to come in, buy all the buildings, and convert them into bar spaces. That's the most likely path. Believe me, if I had the money to do that, I would.

 

This was a business decision, based on cold, hard numbers. That's really all there is to it.

Doesn't Covington have sort of a nightlife district over in that Mainstrasse area?

 

 

Doesn't Covington have sort of a nightlife district over in that Mainstrasse area?

 

 

 

Yes, it does. One of the things that bug me about Covington, is that it makes the river seem a lot wider than it really is – in terms of culture. I feel like I am surrounded by hoosiers and feel "out of place" sometimes. However, one of the places that I always have a good time is The Cock & Bull. I'm not trying to knock NKY or Covington in any way, but it's kind of hard to ignore.

Frankly I never noticed much difference between Newport and Covington and the Cicnicnnati side...like someone said upthread they seem, to me, to be the "south side" of Cincinnati, pretty well connected to the city, it seems, via bridges and that shuttle bus.  Certainly, physically, they look pretty similar, with the old buildings and churches.

 

Socially, I don't know.  From going to that Italian festival at Newport last year, it didnt seem too redneck..but that was just that event.

 

 

Cincy-Rise, you're absolutely right.  It is two different worlds, and I'm in Main Strasse enough (a cock & bull regular for years) to see the how the culture has developed over the last 5 years or so.  The new businesses and residents have had an influence on the old Covington crowd and you see some sort of bohemian-redneck hybrid that flourishes.  I have never seen this anywhere but Covington.

Doesn't Covington have sort of a nightlife district over in that Mainstrasse area?

 

 

 

Yes, it does. One of the things that bug me about Covington, is that it makes the river seem a lot wider than it really is ? in terms of culture. I feel like I am surrounded by hoosiers and feel "out of place" sometimes. However, one of the places that I always have a good time is The Cock & Bull. I'm not trying to knock NKY or Covington in any way, but it's kind of hard to ignore.

 

Agreed...  One block over from Mainstrasse and you feel like you wandered into the backwoods of West Virginia.  The only place where I have felt surrounded by that many rednecks in the Cincinnati area was probably Sedamsville.  This doesn't negate the crime that goes on in OTR, but I don't get the NKY hype.  Most of Covington west of the Roebling has been gutted by urban renewal with surface lots and fast food joints except for the gorgeous area east of the Roebling Bridge of course.  I will admit I have a conditional feeling toward NKY, I wish them well because I know overall they help make the region better but not at the expense of Cincinnati or Ohio.  I make an effort to make sure my money is spent on the Ohio side in dining and nightlife. 

 

I love Downtown, Clifton, Northside, Mt. Adams, Mt. Lookout and OTR for nightlife and have no problem having fun in these hoods.  Does the city have issues? Absolutely but I don't know why some people think hating on the city will fix anything, in fact it has a domino effect because the negativity funnels to possible developers or transplants and once they hear that the locals hate on the city it is very easy to have a change of heart.  Since the Banks is in the distant future I think "West 5th" is the future of Cincinnati nightlife.  It only takes about two more bars/clubs and that could really turn the curve for that area.  Nick when I threw that out there on your blog, I didn't know you were so committed to another place.  I was surprised this happened so fast at least from the information you had posted on your blog.

 

I wonder if Nick split in part because he got the inside scoop that 3CDC improvements in the neighborhood were going to be scaled back or were stumbling?

Some people need to put aside their Kentucky hatred and take off the blinders.  Covington and Newport are not the devil and a business moving there is no different than moving from neighborhood to neighborhood.  Covington and Newport are just another neighborhood in the city, IMO, and just as an important key in developing a better quality of life in our city.

 

I'm guessing this comment is directed at me.  I also wish Nky all the success in the world, I do not look at Nky the same way that I do the 'burbs.  However, I wish they would derive their success (for once) not at the expense of Ohio/Hamilton County/Cincinnati.  What they do is steal projects, festivals, etc away from the city because their state is throwing financial clout their way like their is no tommorow..while the state of Ohio practically ignores Cincinnati.

 

I find it to be dirty business to go lowball a business trying to locate within a different locale.  This is what Newport has been notorious for (Haufbrauhaus, Seafood Festival, Aquarium, etc).  Not to mention the business growth in Nky is derived directly from Cincinnati and Hamilton County.  Now I am not opposed to good old fashion capitalistic competition, but it gets to a point that you are practicing dirty business.

 

Now back to the original topic, Cincinnati is not the best place in the world and I recognize that.  But it is not the worst place to do business either!  Of course it is going to be cheaper to do business in the 'burbs or Nky.....this is because they arent developed!!!!!  Cornfields are cheap...so are cow pastuers.  It is going to be costly to do business in any city that is worth while, IMO, it just takes a good business plan and a good product and then the success will follow.

 

If Main St had a product that I would like to use....I would go to Main often, however the establishments are not my scene (as many others have just stated) and therefore I do not show up.  I would say that there is a segment of society that would love to utilize OTR establishments....but they have got to be the right ones!

 

Anywho....Good Luck Nick, as much as I have criticized you, I have supported you and your efforts since I have known of you(2-3 years now)!  You are a great urbanite/citizen and good luck...I just warn that the grass may not be greener on the Ky side.

Yeah, I take some offense to that.

 

First off, you weren't the one who suffered through two years of high crime, and the major negative impact it had on business. I've invested as much as anyone in making OTR a great place again, but I can only sustain so much financially. A business needs customers and money to run, and despite having a strong brand, our location was a huge deterrent. We lost regulars and big tabs to car break-ins and muggings nearly every week.

 

So to smugly act like we deserve scorn for leaving OTR, well, I find that really classy.

 

Finally, if folks are wondering why we didn't stay in the city, I'd say two things: we couldn't find a spot that made sense, and the cost of doing business in Ohio as a bar is much higher. Compound this with Covington's overall helpfulness (reflected everywhere except in the paper), and the decision was practically made for us. We would've loved to be in the Ludlow Garage-- we tried, don't blame me, blame the property owner for making a mess of the building. We looked at the Artists Warehouse space in Northside, but with no HVAC or bathrooms, it just wasn't realistic. We even looked at Lava downtown, but the building is just too damn expensive.

 

So its not like I didn't try. But in Cincy, no one was working with me, and we're losing money, so what are you going to do?

 

But yeah, anything bad that happens here is definitely karma. God knows how little I've done to try and help the city of Cincinnati. Maybe you should rethink where you so cavalierly toss the blame around.

 

Nick,

My first comment was made in jest . .I wish the best of luck to you in your venture into Kentucky...  while an avid supporter of Cincinnati I am also a supporter of the region. I know that NKY has put together a plan to make business easier on their side of the river. I agree that you moving to covington is MUCH better than moving to suburban parts of the region. I do not doubt that you have tried to make it work there...if i may ask???? are there any other bars that are leaving mainstreet?? what was the largest thing that the city could have done to make sure that your needs were met?? Would you relocate , should the banks or another entertainment destination be developed along the Ohio side of the river? as a business owner that is on tough times on the Ohio side....MUCH can be learned for your experience and much can be derived by your opinions....sorry that you had to leave....good luck to you

-brad

I only know of two bars planning to STAY on Main Street. The closures are just starting.

The closures are just starting.

We're doomed! I think I even saw a piece of the sky falling just outside my window.

 

Glad you found a place in Cov. that is truly a great area over there.  I wish you the best.

 

 

Now back to the original topic, Cincinnati is not the best place in the world and I recognize that.  But it is not the worst place to do business either!  Of course it is going to be cheaper to do business in the 'burbs or Nky.....this is because they arent developed!!!!!  Cornfields are cheap...so are cow pastuers.  It is going to be costly to do business in any city that is worth while, IMO, it just takes a good business plan and a good product and then the success will follow.

 

If Main St had a product that I would like to use....I would go to Main often, however the establishments are not my scene (as many others have just stated) and therefore I do not show up.  I would say that there is a segment of society that would love to utilize OTR establishments....but they have got to be the right ones!

 

Well said.

I didn't want to start a new thread so I will put this here since there is previous discussion.

 

 

 

last call for alchemize in cincy

 

So, a lot of people are obviously sad that alchemize couldn't find a spot to relocate within the city proper. Me, too. While I think we'd have a very bright future in Northern Kentucky, we looked really hard for a spot in the Clifton-Northside area first and just couldn't find one. I looked at Za on Ludlow, the Garage itself, the Cincinnati Artists Warehouse space, and others.

 

Well, this weekend, a blog reader very nervous about the Covington move-politics emailed me with some info on the Preacher's Nightclub building in Northside, which I'm ashamed to say I didn't even know was for sale.

 

Anyhow, the space would definitely work for us. Its very ready to go, we'd just need to do some cosmetic changes (same as we did at the old place when it was The Cavern). It has a second floor we could convert over time, and a very cool courtyard.

 

The asking price is 250k, for everything, building and contents. That's not at all a bad deal. When I expressed interest in the Lava building a while back, several people emailed me about that, and I know this one is a much more attractive price and site.

 

So anyhow, if you're interested in purchasing a nice looking property in Northside and having us as a tenant, just email me at [email protected]. And hey, you'd be the person that kept alchemize in the city of Cincinnati, which would hopefully make a few people happy. The wheels are turning in Covington, but obviously if someone was serious about doing this, it could be the new plan.

 

http://nickspencer.blogspot.com/2006/07/last-call-for-alchemize-in-cincy.html

Someone secure the funds for the building in Northside! Where are the rich bastards on this site? :(

What kind of place is Alchemize?  I gather it might be a live music place if the owner sponsored a music festival?

What kind of place is Alchemize?  I gather it might be a live music place if the owner sponsored a music festival?

 

Yeah, usually live music.  It was actually a cool place.  I've been there a few times myself.  There are two floors, and sometimes there were bands on each floor. 

 

We stopped by the place when we were going to bars on Main St.

I think I am going to take a drive down to Covinington this afternoon to check out the town and the new Alchemize site.

 

I dont know too much about the place, but what few experiences Ive had of the place where postiive.  The Cathederal there is pretty good...I went to an organ concert there once, when I first moved to Ohio.  And there used to be a pretty good restaurant on one of the main streets near downtown (dont recall the name or the street anymore).

 

25 W 7th.  OK. I guess if Alchemize doesnt move there that artists loft thing will be.

 

 

 

How does insurance work when someone owns the building and someone leases the space to open a bar?  I imagine the owner of the building needs insurance to secure the loan but what type of insurance does a bar owner need and what does it cover? 

 

Say there is a window broken, who is responsible?  The owner or the leaser?

I think this article about Washington avenue in St. Louis speaks to what's happening on Main Street.  Specifically, the comment about a changing marketplace leading to the closing of nightclubs.  Main Streets needs to evolve with the times.  Hopefully Vinyl will help jumpstart the next generation of Main Street...

 

 

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/local/14910690.htm

 

Washington Avenue adds new places to eat, party

Downtown's nightlife is revitalized

BY CURT DAWSON

For the News-Democrat

 

ST. LOUIS - With the revitalization of Washington Avenue, nightclub and restaurant owners downtown continue to adapt in a changing market that has seen the disappearance of numerous nightclubs.

 

"Downtown is more residential than it was 10 years ago, so there is a trend towards restaurants with a bar," said Pablo Weiss, owner of three venues in the Loft District. Weiss owns KitchenK, Mercury, and Nectar.

I see it more as two struggling cities that are too sprawled out and don't have enough young people to support nightclubs. There isn't a very big market for restaurants in OTR-- not enough customers or foot traffic at this time.

 

But honestly, Washington Ave. is, on the whole, in stronger shape than Main Street, especially these days.

I see it more as two struggling cities that are too sprawled out and don't have enough young people to support nightclubs. There isn't a very big market for restaurants in OTR-- not enough customers or foot traffic at this time.

 

OR....folks aren't into nightclub scenes like they were 5-10 years ago...  I suppose one can look at recent events come up with their own hypotheses.  But, Im not convinced that the size of the market of "young people" is that much smaller. Even if it is 10% smaller, its still a sizeable market.  If anything, the argument could be made that the potential market size is bigger.  People are changing their lifestyles. Getting married later, hanging out with friends later and an older group can be reached than was considered 10 years ago.

 

If anything I would say the market is more competitive.  People have many more options for spending their time and money.

 

I would also add that there aren't many restaurant customers in OTR is because we don't have many restaurants.(and I mean restaurant first - bar second) Kaldi's and Cooper's don't count.  Nicola's does pretty well.  I don't think people eat out by just walking by a restaurant.  Eating out is much more of a destination decision.  If anything. a restaurant will drive foot traffic which helps with retail on the street.  Thats a big reason why all these 'lifestyle' centers are adding restaurants. The only thing that seprates a lifestlye center from a strip mall are the anchor restaurants.

 

But honestly, Washington Ave. is, on the whole, in stronger shape than Main Street, especially these days.

 

That's actually my point.  Washington Ave was not always where it is now.  It had to change with the times.

 

 

And dude - I thought you had shut down Alchemize and moved on to greener fields.  Why on earth are you still lurking on a thread about Main Street trying convince everyone why it won't be successful?  I respect that you have made a business decision to move on.  That's cool.  But Geez Louis, quit poisoning the water.  Does it make you feel better about your decision or something? All I ever hear from you anymore with respect to OTR is negativity.  Even in the Enquirer...

 

 

I think i saw the Covington location.  Thats an interesting little part of Covington, where Pine and 7th come together.  I recall there used to be a gay bar, "Bricks", in that old "Distillery" building...dont know what happened but that buidling really has hit the skids.

 

 

Rumor has it that Nicola's was selected by 3CDC to move to Fountain Square.

 

But honestly, Washington Ave. is, on the whole, in stronger shape than Main Street, especially these days.

 

Well they are completely different animals.  OTR has more in common with Benton Park (St. Louis Neighborhood) then it does with a BLVD in downtown St. Louis but on a whole downtown Cincinnati is healthier than downtown St. Louis.

Washington Ave. isn't all that at all ... but it is turning into something nice and seems to have a lot of energy. Like Monte pointed out, OTR and Washington Ave. are 2 different animals.

 

I went to Club Nectar in January. It was pretty nice and appears to have this "elite" status that draws people to the area because of this. The only way we got in was because we knew someone and this is because we were told at first, that the club had reached maximum capacity (  :? )? The music was horrible, but the atmosphere is great. To the right of Nectar there is another great club and people can go from one to the other without even going outside.

 

Washington Ave. is like having our entertainment district in the CDB, you can't compare OTR to Washington Ave.

I agree with all of that (lived in STL for like a year).

 

I guess I just think more emphasis should be placed on cleaning the junk out of the neighborhood than this-- nightclubs aren't big anymore (not true at all) stuff. Those buildings will likely be sitting empty for a long, long time, and that will create more crime on the south end of Main in OTR. That, in turn, will have a negative impact on North Main.

 

Somewhere, we've been over this before. Keep in mind, its not just bars closing. There are almost no businesses in OTR paying market rate rents. That's really bad. And it will continue like that until we see some more policing, some tougher penalties against slum lords, a relocation of these social services, and more City/3CDC investment in the area.

Can you imagine that a neighborhood could get better by having fewer bars?

It would depend on the type of bars and whom it caters to, to determine the neighborhood's vitality. This thread is such a spiral.

In some instances, sure. But I don't think that's the case with Main Street and OTR. I think that some of the bars, in desperation of making more money, let in bad crowds. But no, on the whole, I don't believe for a second that the entertainment district's collapse with benefit OTR. Because a) the condo/gallery movement is spectacularly overstated in terms of numbers and impact 2) the condo/gallery movement wasn't being impeded by the entertainment and 3) the buildings on the south of Main will not be converted, they will sit empty and it will become a drug hotspot. The owners of those buildings simply will not turn them into anything else, I know that firsthand.

 

I do think the entertainment district, and what it did, is severely underappreciated. For quite a while, it was one of the few things bringing people downtown in the evenings. We're now left with the embarassment of being just about the only city our size without a real entertainment district in our center city-- a growing testament to how hollowed out our core has become. I find that pretty humiliating. But if there's something I've learned about Cincy, its that they love a winner and are brutal to the losers and/or the unhappy. When Main Street was hopping, everyone loved it. But when it hit hard times with the riots, instead of working to save it, people turned on it. Kinda sad, in my opinion. I find the whole "Well, who needs them anyway" stuff to be very indicative of the problem this town has.

Maybe all of these happenings are saying that the city (I dont mean leadership or any person...I think of the city as a living thing in and of itself: has a heartbeat, emotions, etc) doesnt want this type of thing in OTR.  Obviously the newness of the Main St Entertainment District has worn off.  Lets move on, you cant simply say: "I want an entertainment district here and a artist district there"....these things will naturally form, and will thus be healthy/successful.

 

I believe that the city wants OTR to become a neighborhood once again.  It is moving in this direction, once this occurs what happens in terms of businesses will happen on their own (be it shopping, breweries, clubs, bars, whatever).  OTR will survive and their is no question that Main St will survive...it may not be as an entertainment district (most likely not), but it will evolve into something else that lends itself to the city better.

 

Please excuse my hippie city feelings :|

Hey Nick

IF the only think to keep you from making money is the safety of your club why not invest in you're  own security.

why Waite for the city police to bale you out(are you a communist or who wants local governments to make the tax payers pay for everything your business needs to be successful ) or are you a free market guy who will make a successful baseness out of whats needed in a comunite??

To take away from Main for a second, what would it take for West 5th to truly become a successful district for nightlife?  Aren't those properties pretty cheap?  Wouldn't it be easy to purchase one of those storefronts yourself?  What is a good website to see what those commercial properties are going for?

Rumor has it that Nicola's was selected by 3CDC to move to Fountain Square.

My understanding is that it is going to be a second location.  A bistro concept.

 

Well they are completely different animals.  OTR has more in common with Benton Park (St. Louis Neighborhood) then it does with a BLVD in downtown St. Louis but on a whole downtown Cincinnati is healthier than downtown St. Louis.

 

Brought up the article to highlight the idea of a shift in market demand.  Bars/nightclubs vs. restaurant focus with bars.  Was highlighting the idea of product, not the location.  I think they are close enough to merit consideration.

 

I agree with all of that (lived in STL for like a year).

Somewhere, we've been over this before. Keep in mind, its not just bars closing. There are almost no businesses in OTR paying market rate rents. That's really bad. And it will continue like that until we see some more policing, some tougher penalties against slum lords, a relocation of these social services, and more City/3CDC investment in the area.

 

I never said that businesses in OTR were paying much for rent, but market rate is just that.  The rate at which the market will pay.  Hence businesses are paying market rate.  May not be what the landlords would like to receive, but it is what it is.  And I don't disagree that it would be much better if demand was such that businesses had to pay more.  But that has absolutely nothing to do with the article.  Oh, and I don't disagree that crime and vagrants are an issue, but they have been an issue in OTR for the last 20-30 years. Talk to some on the longtime residents and they will speak of a time when it was even worse than it is now.

 

You and others may disagree in where you think the mindset of the market is.  That's fine.  I just have a different point of view.  And I also happen to think that NotL is the current entertainment district.  May be sterile, but it has all the trappings - and it has restaurant/bars. Even Jefferson Hall jumped in with food didn't they?

IF the only think to keep you from making money is the safety of your club why not invest in you're  own security.

why Waite for the city police to bale you out(are you a communist or who wants local governments to make the tax payers pay for everything your business needs to be successful ) or are you a free market guy who will make a successful baseness out of whats needed in a comunite??

 

What in the f*** are you talking about?

 

First, dude, please stop posting when you're drunk.

 

Second, Nick's business was paying loads of taxes and fees and payroll taxes and god knows what all else.  In exchange for that, he should be able to expect at least minimal services, like, oh, I don't know, frickin' police responding to emergency calls.  That doesn't make him a communist - and unless you think folks should stand outside of their burning home with their checkbook to pay the fire department, you'll probably agree when you're sober.

 

Third, do you honestly think it's wise policy for the city of Cincinnati to impose, in effect, a security tax on businesses that try to operate in OTR?  Security within the club, sure - bouncers are a cost of doing business.  But outside, where customers get accosted on the street, their cars busted into, drugs and prostitution across the street, Nick himself being stalked and assaulted?  Which leads to:

 

Fourth, how large should The Nick Force's jurisdiction extend?  Does his private security force patrol the streets for a couple blocks or something?

 

Maybe all of these happenings are saying that the city (I dont mean leadership or any person...I think of the city as a living thing in and of itself: has a heartbeat, emotions, etc) doesnt want this type of thing in OTR.  Obviously the newness of the Main St Entertainment District has worn off.  Lets move on, you cant simply say: "I want an entertainment district here and a artist district there"....these things will naturally form, and will thus be healthy/successful.

 

I believe that the city wants OTR to become a neighborhood once again.  It is moving in this direction, once this occurs what happens in terms of businesses will happen on their own (be it shopping, breweries, clubs, bars, whatever).  OTR will survive and their is no question that Main St will survive...it may not be as an entertainment district (most likely not), but it will evolve into something else that lends itself to the city better.

 

Please excuse my hippie city feelings :|

 

what an unplannerish statement Rando :-o good point though... if everyone agreed with you, we wouldn't have a job when we graduate

^thats untrue brad.  Planners are not supposed to create districts, or developments, or whatever.  Planners should aide the city and help to develop a good product that lends itself well to businesses.  For example, the W5th area is an area of focus that could be an entertainment district.  Bars/clubs have already opened there on their own without 'the man' coming down to tell them where to be.  Now, planners could come in and change some zoning (residential...mixed-use).  Planners could also encourage some infill and create a more user-friendly environment for the areas businesses.

 

You cannot snap your fingers and wish it to be....this is what gives planners a bad name (pie in the sky, lofty goals, etc).  We, as planners, must facilitate/encourage natural trends throughout the urban environment.  If an area wants shopping....make it easier for shopping to exist.  If an area wants more housing....assist in the creation of more housing.  You get the idea.

:-D I don't know man...i kinda liked the idea of snapping my fingers and everything being great...snap* McMillan/Calhoun done and thriving...snap* The banks completed and is a national tourist destination....snap* OTR is restored: historians from around the globe bask in all of its glory ...snap* West end is no longer cut off from downtown and is filled with business/people....snap* cincinnati is no longer losing population, and is now the mecca for the young and hip........wouldn't that be nice?? ?? . . . i thought that's what planners did...damn...time to find a new major..haha

IF the only think to keep you from making money is the safety of your club why not invest in you're  own security.

why Waite for the city police to bale you out(are you a communist or who wants local governments to make the tax payers pay for everything your business needs to be successful ) or are you a free market guy who will make a successful baseness out of whats needed in a comunite??

 

 

 

Second, Nick's business was paying loads of taxes and fees and payroll taxes and god knows what all else.  In exchange for that, he should be able to expect at least minimal services, like, oh, I don't know, frickin' police responding to emergency calls.  That doesn't make him a communist - and unless you think folks should stand outside of their burning home with their checkbook to pay the fire department, you'll probably agree when you're sober.

 

Third, do you honestly think it's wise policy for the city of Cincinnati to impose, in effect, a security tax on businesses that try to operate in OTR?  Security within the club, sure - bouncers are a cost of doing business.  But outside, where customers get accosted on the street, their cars busted into, drugs and prostitution across the street, Nick himself being stalked and assaulted?  Which leads to:

 

Fourth, how large should The Nick Force's jurisdiction extend?  Does his private security force patrol the streets for a couple blocks or something?

 

 

Everyone in the city pays taxes for the police, If their aren't enough residents in OTR to justify putting extra police their then dint do it. Crime is solved when the community and local business owners want to solve the problem (neighborhod watch and such)

 

Company's all the time employee off duties police officers to partoll around their business establishment. I grantee that if every bar around main street hired a off duty officer (in uniform) to just walk around the area, crime would be reduced.

 

O and last time i checked an car break-in is not an emergency, now if their is an assault then thats a different story, but that also comes with the territory of a night club scene.

 

Nick is just whining because his business plan failed and he couldn't make it work, and I'm sick of listening to it.

 

Everyone in the city pays taxes for the police, If their aren't enough residents in OTR to justify putting extra police their then dint do it. Crime is solved when the community and local business owners want to solve the problem (neighborhod watch and such)

 

 

 

A neighborhood watch is certainly effective but its a synergistic relationship and police response is still important. The number of police shouldn't be in proportion to the population density of the area, it should be in proportion to the amount of crime in the area.

 

 

I would think the number of police officers put on the streets would be determined by the amount of crime.  I would also think that if an event is going on, there will also be more police present.

:-D I don't know man...i kinda liked the idea of snapping my fingers and everything being great...snap* McMillan/Calhoun done and thriving...snap* The banks completed and is a national tourist destination....snap* OTR is restored: historians from around the globe bask in all of its glory ...snap* West end is no longer cut off from downtown and is filled with business/people....snap* cincinnati is no longer losing population, and is now the mecca for the young and hip........wouldn't that be nice?? ?? . . . i thought that's what planners did...damn...time to find a new major..haha

 

You make me laugh and then cry at how depressing some things in Cincy are.

Gaslight:

 

If you knew how many times a customer had been attacked physically, and the police didn't respond within 30 minutes, maybe you'd get it.

 

And you have no idea what you're talking about on the police thing. Most bars CAN'T GET OFFICERS TO SIGN UP FOR MAIN STREET DETAILS. The officers don't want to do them-- they can get the overtime dollars a million other, easier ways.

 

Finally, I really doubt the problem is my business plan. After all, I'm one of close to a dozen bars vacating the area. But then, I guess we're all just bad at running our businesses... even though we seem to make so much more money when we move...

 

And you have no idea what you're talking about on the police thing. Most bars CAN'T GET OFFICERS TO SIGN UP FOR MAIN STREET DETAILS. The officers don't want to do them-- they can get the overtime dollars a million other, easier ways.

 

Finally, I really doubt the problem is my business plan. After all, I'm one of close to a dozen bars vacating the area. But then, I guess we're all just bad at running our businesses... even though we seem to make so much more money when we move...

 

I bet your right getting overtime in OTR would requirer higher pay to justify the extra danger/work.

 

Maybe Location should be included in the Business Plan, when considering opening a bar thats going to attract the type of people that it does.  I wonder how the bigger city's do it, i would think that you are safer in OTR, then in some club/bar areas in new York or chicago, or LA.

I wonder how the bigger city's do it, i would think that you are safer in OTR, then in some club/bar areas in new York or chicago, or LA.

 

The impression I've gotten is this:

 

1.  The market is much larger

2.  Demand for good nightlife is higher

3.  The product is often better

4.  The animosity toward and fear of the city is lower

"I wonder how the bigger city's do it, i would think that you are safer in OTR, then in some club/bar areas in new York or chicago, or LA."

 

I went to a club in Chicago called the Aragorn Ballroom. I was warned by Chicagoans about how horrible the neighborhood was.

Looked like UC or the Ohio State residential areas to me.

I'll pose my question again: Can you imagine that a neighborhood could get better by having fewer bars?

 

I mean, Main Street bars are open and really going for, what? maybe ten hours a week. The rest of time is dead air. Bars drive up rents, litter a lot and crowd-out useful businesses. Having a bar on the first floor of a typical OTR building means that it will be very expensive to ever have housing on the upper floor of the building. And then, who wants to live above a bar?

 

Bars can be a mixed blessing for neighborhoods wanting to improve. I think Main Street has caught a lucky break here.

 

People see bars moving out of OTR, and they wring their hands. For the most part, I think is a natural evolution into a 24/7 neighborhood, with useful businesses backfilling the vacancies left by the bars.

John--

 

A few points I would make:

 

1) The bars in the Main Street District would almost all have loved to be open more hours, mine included. But every time it was tried, it failed. Why? There's not a market for it. Not enough residents and foot traffic.

 

2) Some of your comments betray personal preference, rather than some kind of market reality. I have a hard time imagining any business being "crowded out" of OTR. And some of us find bars to be "useful" businesses. We're called young people, and we like to drink on occasion. I lived above a bar once, and I loved it. Again, you need to think like an 18-34 year old here, because that's who frequent bars. I think some people on here may have phased out of the bar scene, and have since lost appreciation for entertainment districts and their benefits.

 

3) The bars didn't drive up rents on anyone. The North Main Storefronts are still essentially free.

 

4) The bar buildings on Main are mostly offices upstairs-- they housed Digital Rhine back in the day. They are not, I repeat NOT, goign to be converted into housing. Stough and Bob Schneider will not do it, period. Not to mention the Center City housing market is really soft right now, period.

 

5) Finally, everyone keeps talking about these vacant spaces and how all these great "useful" businesses are gonna move in up there, even though we still have tons of open storefronts everywhere else in OTR. Keep dreaming. I know these property owners, and they have the will and means to just sit on these properties. They will not convert them, I can promise you that. They won't put them up for sale. And no business besides a bar can afford those rents in a market like OTR. So, please, save the grocery store dream for somewhere else-- you're better off trying to get in for free at one of the condo buildings. The entertainment district is going to sit empty for years unless new bars come in. Mark my words on that, I'm sure of it. Again, I know these property owners.

 

Here's what I know: before the riots, we had a bustling district that, like it or not, brought thousands of people down to OTR to spend money every weekend. And now we don't.

I moved to Cincinnati in 2003 and never stepped foot in Cincinnati until 2002.  It would have been nice to know what the city was like before the riots to be able to understand the argument that OTR & downtown were so much better before the riots.  While the CBD & OTR have lost businesses, I have also seen great improvement in building exteriors from rehabs.  From a building rehab perspective I know that Main "looks" better today than it did when I first moved here but that doesn't equate to a better environment.  Why would people move forward with these rehabs if OTR was worse today?  Are more people living on Main & Sycamore (two of OTR’s gentrified streets) since the riots? 

 

Nick, I know you are unhappy with your business ventures in OTR and many of us read other websites in the Cincinnati internet world so we have probably read your grips over and over.  My point in bringing this up is to take your input to another level.  We would like to here from you on things that would make it easier for a small business to open a store/bar in Cincinnati vs. NKY.  Maybe you can give us a comparison on Cincinnati vs. Covington on costs.  All many of us hear is a random, Cincinnati is so expensive and NKY is cheaper to open a business but can you break it down for us?  Overall Cincinnati's income tax, while high at 2.1% is still cheaper than Covington's 2.5%.  Also if you live in Cincinnati like you do, how does your income tax payout work?  Would you now have to pay Cincinnati 2.1% & Covington 2.5%?

 

OTR, like most urban areas, saw condo construction in 2002-2005, during the housing boom. It was pretty modest, but its been hyped up like crazy. Its not really that many buildings... I think we sold what, 60 condos last year in the "Greater Downtown" area? Come on. On top of that, most developers will tell you they ended up selling for cost, which means nobody made any money, which doesn't exactly encourage more investment. A LOT of units are sitting unsold. Its a soft, weak market that gets talked about like its this spectacular renaissance of downtown living. Please.

 

Its slowing down now, due to too many developers getting burned and too many units on the market. Not a whole lot of new announcements out there-- The McAlpin and Parker Flats downtown, and the Vine Street stuff that's going to need heavy subsidy from 3CDC and the city, especially if Gateway is any indication (at this point, that's not a slow start, its a crash).

 

The cost of starting a business in Covington is very low. I haven't found a permit yet that isn't cheaper on that side of the river. Liquor Licenses are the HUGE one. Serve food, and you get it for free in KY. If not, you get them as low as 10k. In Ohio? 30k. Sooo... that's a pretty big difference.

 

Most people don't know the nightmare that business owners in the city deal with. Seriously, there's a reason almost all business owners in the city complain-- we get treated really, really badly. I just happen to be one that posts on the internet, but most will tell you the same things.

 

Look, I know people get tired of hearing me complain about this stuff. But I just keep trying to hammer home this point: investment in OTR is extremely dangerous (in many ways), and will be UNTIL City Hall and the powers that be decide to clean up the area. Until then, its not going to turn around. They could change everything in one year, but they don't have the will or the guts. And as a result, people will continue to come down there and get burned, despite their obvious good intentions and hard work.

John--

 

2) Some of your comments betray personal preference, rather than some kind of market reality. I have a hard time imagining any business being "crowded out" of OTR. And some of us find bars to be "useful" businesses. We're called young people, and we like to drink on occasion. I lived above a bar once, and I loved it. Again, you need to think like an 18-34 year old here, because that's who frequent bars. I think some people on here may have phased out of the bar scene, and have since lost appreciation for entertainment districts and their benefits.

 

No offense but Im beginning to think you are a bit myopic with respect to what 18-34 year olds want.  Just because a group is young doesn't mean the entire demographic is attracted to the same thing.  You appear to project your wants/likes on the whole demographic.  The world is more diverse than that. I know a whole host of 18-34's that would not want to live above a bar.  I know a few that do. The market reality is a diverse one.

 

4) The bar buildings on Main are mostly offices upstairs-- they housed Digital Rhine back in the day. They are not, I repeat NOT, goign to be converted into housing. Stough and Bob Schneider will not do it, period. Not to mention the Center City housing market is really soft right now, period.

 

5) Finally, everyone keeps talking about these vacant spaces and how all these great "useful" businesses are gonna move in up there, even though we still have tons of open storefronts everywhere else in OTR. Keep dreaming. I know these property owners, and they have the will and means to just sit on these properties. They will not convert them, I can promise you that. They won't put them up for sale. And no business besides a bar can afford those rents in a market like OTR. So, please, save the grocery store dream for somewhere else-- you're better off trying to get in for free at one of the condo buildings. The entertainment district is going to sit empty for years unless new bars come in. Mark my words on that, I'm sure of it. Again, I know these property owners.

 

If the signs/listings are any indication, there are a number of spaces on the block.

 

Germania building

Lucy Blue building

Neon's

Harry's

Jeckyll and Hydes

Jump

Davis Furniture

 

Looks like there is an interest in selling to me.  Now the big question is at what price.  Currently the asking prices unreasonable, but if there is no interest the market will soften up the landlords in time.

 

Don't know what Stough and Bod Schnieder own, but it would be interesting to understand the thought process./ economics as to why they would choose to sit on a building. Particularly if they have paid in as much as much money as I would guess.  I can see waiting if one thinks that interest will return and you're biding your time.  But if the general feeling of all the bar owners is to 'get out of Dodge' as you say and there is little to no interest in their retail space.  Why would a landlord pay taxes, maybe a mortgage, insurance on an empty building (not cheap), and then on top of that VBML fees/fines, on a property that is depreciating in value, soon to be overrun with vagrants and drug dealers?  I would think that at some point they would actively investigate uses to offset that carrying cost for the property, or sell to liquidate the asset and reallocate that money to investments that generate a higher return. Seems odd that they would choose the former scenario just because...