Why does Mt. Adams have limited appeal? The worst thing I can think of is that it's just not a very big neighborhood.

Edit: Never mind, question answered.

Nick - I wish I had more time to research and respond, but this is the last information on metro population change.  The final category is the (second to last is international migration) net domestic migration, which while it is bad to lose, this is not horrible. 

Year   Population      Change Births  Deaths Migration

2005  2,070,441 0.7 13,598 29,457 17,626 2,262 -492

 

Additionally, Cincinnati's median age is still around 35, which it has been for a long time, and within the city limits it has one of the higher percentages of college grads in Ohio.  There are also a lot of metros which are aging faster (Number 1: Pittsburgh), and even losing population as a metro.  When you start seeing the number of deaths getting close to or exceeding the number of births is also when you have real problems.

 

I appreciate your efforts, and I enjoy them, but the market for places like Southgate House, alchemize, Northside Tavern, the Comet etc. was and will always be limited. Even in its heyday, I would say Main Street was more of a place to see, be seen, and get laid.  I do not care the age, and I would say especially the college aged people want the meat-market places.  Sad but true.  I hear your frustration, but I am not sure of what your message is.  It seems you want to make the city more fun and cooler, but based on your personal experience with city government, you have become its top basher.  Again, you have a lot more room to talk since you are sticking your neck on the line, but I would hope there is some way to work with the city.

 

By the way, I do think the city needs to put a lot more effort in recruiting and keeping college grads.  When he had his mayor's night in, I went to Luken in 2000 (I think) and asked about selling the city at big schools around the Midwest.  He told me you really can't sell the city, but companies with jobs can recruit there.

Cincy1:

 

I think this region's loss of young, creative talent workers is pretty well documented. Whether or not Butler/Clermont/Warren/No. Ky. is a subject of some debate, but Hamilton County lost them at a pace unmatched in the country. That's the audience most bars/clubs/galleries/hip shops in the city depend on. I find it funny the level of denial many Cincinnatians are living in, including our former Mayor: Most young people are desperate to get out of this city, and plenty do.

 

You're right that Cincinnati's bar scene has always been relatively tasteless and uninspired. But in the Short Vine days, there was certainly a much stronger local/original/indie scene than there is now. Not just in terms of number of bars... the crowds for bands were much bigger.

 

In every case, the city has not been willing to devote dollars to its entertainment districts, or listen to business owners' needs. Its pathetic.

So out of curiousity, if anyone knows.  How many people did the city of cincinnati lose 18-34 since 2000 and how many did the region lose?  Seems like it can easy to get lost in the rhetoric -  "Cincinnati is losing all the young people - there's no market left!"  What are the actual numbers we're talking about?

 

I think this is relevant because while I agree whole heartedly Cincinnati loses young folks to other cities (I know an awful lot of people during my years here that have left), I would guess that actual data would suggest that the actual population of 18-34 year olds in 1996 years ago is not that much different than 2006.  Maybe we lost 5%. For the sake of argument, if this demographic was 20k in 1996, it would be 19K now.  

 

We can fret about 1000 that are no longer here, or we can figure out where other 19,000 are now spending their time and money and figure out how to get them to OTR.  They make think Cincinnati sucks, but in the meantime they are still looking for entertainment.

 

Personally, as I said before I think much of the problem resides in a stale product.  I have begun to wonder if a contributing factor to that problem is a lack of capital for the people with good ideas.  It seems like Cincinnati is a city where a lot of money his held by conservative hands.  The young entreprenuers have the ideas, but lack the capital to implement them. How cool would it be to have a private equity fund targeted towards funding  small businesses in the city with potential.  Hook up a budding young chef from the Midwest Cullinary Institute with an experienced operational hand and budding young developer in OTR and voila! I would bet some pretty sweet stuff would result.

It would be very cool, but no one has the money to start it.

 

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/08/genxwinners.html

 

Its just a steady, steep loss of young people... and its often the best and brightest. Its just dark days right now, I've got no idea how to fix it.

^Those are interesting figures, but they don't really have much to do with what you've been saying.  Gen X'ers range from around 26-41 years old today - hardly the indie music scene.  I don't doubt that we're losing young folks, but do you have any figures we can hang our hats on?

All I'm saying is young people are leaving this city (according to the census and according to most everyone's anecdotal experience). The Main Street Entertainment District is officially dead, and our city leadership flat out sucks.

 

From Citybeat:

 

"So who's leaving? Young people accounted for a lot of the decline in Cincinnati and Hamilton County in the 1990s. The city suffered a net loss in every age category under 39, while the rest of the county suffered a similar losses of people ages 22 to 34.

 

For example, the city lost 28,582 people between the ages of 18 and 39. The county lost 16,672 people in the same age group, not counting the city."

Nick, you seem to be especially bitter since the past election ... am I right in assuming this?

I used to think Nick was just a bit of the glass half-empty type...

 

Over time, I've come to realize he's just right.. sadly.  He's tried to do positive things over and over and over and has been beat down.  We need more people like him, and sadly it seems the city beats those sort of people into submission.

I don't think it's exactly fair to call Main "officially dead"...yet.  Just because RBC's, Japps, Jefferson Hall, and Alchemize are gone doesn't mean there aren't other places down there.  There's the Exchange, Jeckle and Hyde's, Red Cheetah, Purgatory, Kaldi's, Mr. Pitiful's, Neon's, The new diner (Vinyl), and if you go into downtown theres McFadden's, Havana Martini Club, Bella, and others.  While this latest news is certainly a downer, let's not just call everything dead yet. And finally, to be fair, 3CDC hasn't yet announced any tenants, so, who knows, maybe they will put an attraction geared toward a young audience.

Jeckyll and Hyde's closed this past week, and two more of those bars will close soon. Its over, seriously. Everyone is moving out, its just a question of leases right now.

And I can tell you from talking to 3CDC folks, there is no young tenant waiting in the wings.

Well it looks like we're on the midnight train to nowhere. Perhaps we should focus on expanding Northside since it already seems to be progressing?

To the avg person it would seem like Nick is being pessimistic but he's offered many solutions to the problems. I think Cincinnati has too many people that either give up, don't care and just leave, or they're in denial when it comes to Cincinnati's problems which isn't going to get us anywhere.

And I can tell you from talking to 3CDC folks, there is no young tenant waiting in the wings.

 

I would really hate to believe this.....from young enthusiastic people I know (urbanites) we all have high hopes for the city and OTR in particular.  I would think that even if a majority move away (and probably will) then there will still be some people left around that would love to make a change and complete a renaisance in OTR (I would be one of them...as well as many other Cincy forumers).

 

Believe this or not..but last night I actually had a dream about the reopening of Fountain Square.  People were gathered around by the masses in total awe of the newfound greatness of the square.  Civic pride oozed out of every person there and people felt good about their city once again.

 

Now this is awfully corny..I know..but these are the things that I envision and try to work towards for our great city!  Am I just rediculously naive and alone in this effort, or do I have others that are willing to make a difference NOW?

UncleRando-

 

I admire your positive outlook.

 

I've tried to make a small difference.  I've invested in downtown, I shop downtown.. etc... 

 

The reality for me is that I think leadership is steering us down the wrong path.  The people who have tried to make a difference 'now' are getting screwed over.

 

Hopefully I'm proven wrong - I'd like nothing better. 

Well it looks like we're on the midnight train to nowhere. Perhaps we should focus on expanding Northside since it already seems to be progressing?

To the avg person it would seem like Nick is being pessimistic but he's offered many solutions to the problems. I think Cincinnati has too many people that either give up, don't care and just leave, or they're in denial when it comes to Cincinnati's problems which isn't going to get us anywhere.

 

If I'm still in town in a few years, Northside will be on the top of my list.  It's a good example of the right kinda of growth - in my mind anyway.

 

I haven't given up... just don't like what I see happening.  I want to see OTR be a vibrant, thriving community.  I'm still waiting....and hoping. 

Pretty much none of the places I frequented for entertainment when I was a young'n (Nick's age) are around anymore.

Things change.

You guys keep talking about Northside - one of the largest demographics there are young black people under 30.

Provide them with what they want for a price they can afford & you might be able to make some money but it isn't going to last forever. They re going to get older & their tastes will change.

It's the nature of he beast.

Had to get a 666 day reference in there somehow.

This is such a depressing thread! 

 

In Columbus things seem to be the opposite of Cincinnati.  Downtown neighborhoods are growing and plans for more growth are in place.  Whenever I visit Cincinnati I'm always taken back by the sheer natural beauty of the area, and all the wonderful neighborhoods within.  I just don't understand why people are so eager to leave...  :wtf:

 

I think considering the income level of people residing in Northside, their business district is doing pretty good. Northside has a very cool, old, urban gritty feel to it that it can use to its advantage while not having the percieved crime problem OTR has. Theres a lot of storefronts available there from what I've noticed and the businesses already there seem to be doing good--maybe I'm wrong, I dont know. But they are turning that big old factory building into condos so that's a step in the right direction. I see Northside as the next boom in the inner city but that's just my uneducated opinion.

I go to Newport on the Levee, I do not live there.  I frequent both bars and restraunts in Mt. Adams, I do not live there anymore.  I shop at Rookwood and Kenwood, don't live there either.  By offering the right product and attractions, Main will be successful.  By longing for the good old days and saying Main should stay the way it is regardless of what the market demands sounds like a business model for failure.

 

If I never sold another piece of property, my kneejerk reaction would be to blame a slower market or any other exterior force other than myself.  Main St has never changed with the changing market.  Main St. has not kept it fresh, it just sits around, saying that the market is at fault.  Well there still is an entertainment market, they are going to other places and perhaps the venues of this street need to be the ones who say what can we do to attract them.

 

 

 

Yes it is.  I would tell you that residential in the downtown area is growing.  I would like to get all the numbers, but I would also say that people are unfortunately spreading out in the metro (Hamilton County's population goes down and so does it's number of young people, while it increases in the suburbs).  While work needs to be done to make the city enjoyable for young people (and to recruit and retain them), I would not say everyone is eager to leave.  I met 2 people at work this week that moved here recently and are enjoying it.  I only get out rarely, but when I was in Oakley 2 weeks ago, I met a couple (one from Cleveland, the other from Toledo), and they went to school here and stayed afterward.  All of the people I met throughout the 90's stayed here for many years or are still here (from places like New York, northern New Jersey, Boston etc.)  Unfortunately, I never thought I would see this, but it seems like people that are not from here have a better view of the city than some that are.  I truly believe that everyone is like an ambassador of their city, and at least right now we seem to have a lot more negative energy than positive.

 

Personally, I think Main Street's fate was sealed after the riots and from lack of commitment from the city (police, planning, money etc).  It was always supported by people who live in the city and suburbs.  The suburbanites stopped coming and those were the first signs of trouble.  As when it started with one bar, things like this snow-ball.  Unfortunately for this area, things have gone in the wrong direction.  I think this has more to do with an area that has fallen on hard times than the market for the product disappearing.

This is such a depressing thread! 

 

In Columbus things seem to be the opposite of Cincinnati.  Downtown neighborhoods are growing and plans for more growth are in place.  Whenever I visit Cincinnati I'm always taken back by the sheer natural beauty of the area, and all the wonderful neighborhoods within.  I just don't understand why people are so eager to leave...  :wtf:

 

But Michael, really now.  Can Main Street survive with Vine Street, only two blocks away in the condition it is in? 

 

OTR chews up optimistic youths and spits them out.  To some on the outside it seems a mystery.  Why does an area so ripe for improvement continue to resist the best efforts?  There are many reasons (the sheer size, racial animosity, suburban flight, difficult buildings etc..), but could the real issue be that some people in the neighborhood are, perhaps rightly so, afraid of change?  I say, look to the property owners, especially on Vine Street for the answer to that question.  They are a grouping of people with totally contrasting objectives mixed with inept implementation.

 

They are a grouping of people with totally contrasting objectives mixed with inept implementation.

How was Vine in the early 90's when Main was booming? 

Sometimes I think we get a little too worried about these 'fears'.  Am I a bit worried right now? Sure.  And I'm sure the business and property owners are too.  But we Americans, and all humans, can be impatient people, especially us that care so much and have invested our time and money in these places.  Cities evolve and devolve.  They go up and then they struggle.  Like life in general, they are a roller coaster.  While everybody talks up about how Portland, San Fran, and even Columbus to some extent are so far ahead, and they rightfully are in most aspects, they too will find themselves on the down slope of things one day, even though it may not likely not be in our lifetimes, at least in the Portland instance. 

 

Downtown and OTR will one day see the light again.  It may be later this fall in the form of development spurred off from the new Fountain Square, it may be from the likely impending transportation crisis, or it may not be until we are long gone.  But because we, I should say you guys, have spent the last 15 or so odd years trying to revive Main and OTR with only little glimpses of what could have been, it is not a total loss.  In reality it is only a second in the life of a city.  Great Cities are not built instantly.  The evolution of a city is slow and messy. 

 

I greatly appreciate everybody's efforts who have tried to better the area.  But we must not stop now because a number of others have decided to head toward today's greener pastures.  We must continute to work for the betterment of our community, not just for our lifetime, but also the future.

Well said.

A long rant, but please read...

 

 

Well, I am sad to see the night life go (time will tell if that happens as predicted here).  But I do not agree with all the gloom and doom stuff being written here.  I guarantee you there has been more investment in OTR in since the riots than the preceding five years before them.  No, it may not be in the bar/entertainment industry, but it is in housing, which is as far as I am concerned a much better long term investment for the city.  Housing is the core of everything in a neighborhood, it will bring the rest of the stuff back when the numbers grow enough.  It may not be the night spot it once was, but I feel the area is maturing into a more well rounded area.  If anyone thinks OTR is not a better place now than it was 10-15 years ago, I believe you are sadly mistaken.  I think the bar scene was such a visible force, that it tended to put icing on a cake that really was not baked all the way.  Remember, those crowds were basically only there from 9:00 p.m. to 2:00 a.m. on Friday and Saturday nights, this is hardly a sustainable business climate for a neighborhood as a whole, and probably skewed everyone's view of how well the area was doing.

 

If you want a similar comparison showing a skew the other way: everyone thought downtown was doing great in the 1980's, especially the early years; office towers were going up all over the place and the cranes and high rises were visible signs of success.  However, at the same time, there was no new housing to speak of, retail was shrinking significantly, and the hotels were (and are) languishing.  The office success blinded people to the losses in other areas, and while all the office space construction was great, it was not a true barometer of the climate of downtown.  Compare this to OTR today losing its highly visible nightlife, it may seem like a huge kick in the teeth, but it is but one progress factor in the neighborhood, and the most visible, which unfairly skews the perception of the neighborhood when it shrinks or disappears.

 

If Michael Redmond or Grasscat has the time and resources, could you please put together a list of all projects/condos/apartments sold or rehabbed since the riots and their approximate value?  Everyone here would be astounded, and it would pale in comparison to the investment of a couple of bars.

All I'm saying is young people are leaving this city (according to the census and according to most everyone's anecdotal experience). The Main Street Entertainment District is officially dead, and our city leadership flat out sucks.

 

From Citybeat:

 

"So who's leaving? Young people accounted for a lot of the decline in Cincinnati and Hamilton County in the 1990s. The city suffered a net loss in every age category under 39, while the rest of the county suffered a similar losses of people ages 22 to 34.

 

For example, the city lost 28,582 people between the ages of 18 and 39. The county lost 16,672 people in the same age group, not counting the city."

 

Nick, can you give a citation for that?  I'd be interested in seeing where on earth Citybeat got those figures from, because digging through the census data, I can't find anything even close to that.  Here's some links: 1990's Census Data; 2000's Census Data).

 

The city lost 32,755 people total during the 1990's.  The figures don't break down evenly into 18-39, but if you throw in everything from 15 to 44, you still only get a net loss of 17K.  Now, Citybeat may be talking about a gross figure of 28K being lost, and ignoring another 10K that moved in - but then we aren't really talking about the same thing.  And between 1990 and 2000, we lost fewer 15-24 year olds proportionally than we did the general population.

 

I have no doubt we're losing young people - but I'd like to know if we're losing them disproportionately; if we're losing them not because they're moving, but because they're older, and we aren't attracting new young folks in; or if it's really that we're driving young people out with rocks and sticks.  Saying "all the young people are leaving" is obviously hyperbole - but how true or untrue is it?  Without citations and facts, we're just left to guess...

 

  According to the Hamilton County Regional Planning Commission, Hamilton County Data Book, the 20 to 24 age group in Hamilton County declined from 45,000 in 1980 to 30,000 in 2000, a loss of 15,000 or 33%. (I scaled the numbers off of a chart.)

 

  The only age groups to increase in that period were the 35 to 49 and over 75 age groups. Every other age group declined. The biggest decline, both in numbers and percentage, was the 20 to 24 age group.

 

 

How was Vine in the early 90's when Main was booming? 

You got me there.

 

I guess I'm not so sure that nightclubs = keeping the young and educated in the city.  I'm sure it plays a part, but I don't remember it influencing me or fellow graduates from art school in the 80's.  I do remember friends leaving town for Boston, Chicago or Seattle specifically for walkable urban communities.  They wanted to be with other "progressive" people.  They moved for creative jobs, not places to dance.  They wanted places with bike paths, rail lines, art shows, theater, vibrant markets etc..  That's not to say that live music venues in OTR should not be encouraged.  They definitely should be.  I love the Blue Wisp and love the bluegrass music you can see around town too.  As I  mentioned on another thread, my dream would be a Latino Music Spot in OTR. 

We're aware of the difficulties Main Street faces and are sensitive to them. It doesn't help if Main Street slides as we focus on Vine Street or Washington Park."

 

GODDAMMIT!!!  Why does it always have to be an either/or proposition?

 

 

 

 

Exactly, Grasscat. Why does one street's revival depend on the decline of another?

Can Main Street survive with Vine Street, only two blocks away in the condition it is in?

Go take a look at Vine St. between Central Pkwy and 13th.  There are 26 condos built (Gateway), with work crews on site for 48 more.

How well are those condos selling?

I'm sorry, Jimmy, but young people like to go out, drink, meet people, and enjoy nightlife. Are you seriously trying to say nightlife isn't a major factor for young people? Now, come on... there's spin, then there's getting dizzy. No offense to you at all personally, I like your comments usually, but if you think young people are more into galleries and theater than bars, you may be a little off in judging mainstream tastes. I agree that tolerance and openness, as well as good job markets, play a big role. But nightlife and shopping... that's what the vast majority of young people do with their off-time.

How well are those condos selling?

 

Last I heard, a month or two ago, not so great. I believe the number was 6 out of 26 sold.

Yeah, the Gateway condos are off to a slow start.  But the (literal) views are changing rapidly with all the development in the area, so I expect they'll pick up.  They are good products.

Spewing thoughts...

 

1.  Lack of immigration.  I've noticed in my travels, including here in DC, that many of the better bars, clubs, & restaurants are owned and operated by people who've come from outside the US.  Often the cities they come from have excellent nighlife scenes upon which they draw their inspiration.  Time and time again in Cincinnati, a new place opens and I get excited, only to find out that it offers little or nothing new to the area.  Outsiders, and particularly those from other countries, bring a new perspective that the city certainly lacks.

 

2.  Young people with expendable income settle down or move out.  We've all heard this a million times, and now that I've reached the ripe old age of 26, the truth of it is increasingly apparent.  Many of my old friends have gotten married and tend to focus on the domestic side of life.  Others have indeed moved away.  I myself have been away over 6 months of the last year, and when I go out at night in DC, NYC, or elsewhere, I never feel too old or out of place.  I'd say the majority of the people I meet are my age or older.  Only speaking from personal experience, it seems as though people in Cincinnati cease going out regularly at a much earlier age, and for good reason.  Things are stale and options are limited.  New establishments are generally tired ideas.  This is the main reason I was so glad to hear about Vinyl.

 

3.  There are simply not enough young people with interest in the new and creative.  There is no reason that at least UC's surroundings, if not OTR as well, should not contain dozens of nightlife options with the population of the area.  One theory I have is in this comparison.  Successful cities draw the best and brightest regionally, nationally, and internationally.  While Cincinnati attracts some of this demographic, the majority of students come from smaller midwestern towns & suburbs.  Going back to point #1, this brings little to the table with regard to new perspectives.  Don't get me wrong, great people with great ideas can come from anywhere.  But it helps to have a great city for them to be inspired and implement their ideas.  If this is not available, they will look elsewhere, just as I have done and will do permanently upon graduation.  Oh, and yes, nightlife is one of the many things I look for in a city.

 

    "Why does it always have to be an either/or proposition?"

 

    I would love to see every neighborhood thrive but the fact is that we have an imbalance of buildings to people, and that imbalance is getting worse all the time. There just aren't enough people to go around. Any new district essentially draws people away from an existing one.

 

  If your goal is to draw more people to the region, well, that's a lofty goal but so far it just isn't happening.

 

 

 

 

 

I just took over the Comey City Office Commercial Dept and Main St. is first on my list....

 

Congrats Michael - does this mean you will be on their radio show soon?  ;) 

 

Does anyone know what's up with St. Teresa's Textile there on Main?  Closing on July 31.  Seems to be just the type of place you guys are talking about.  I brought several of my suburban ENTRENCHED family there and they LOVED it - problem is they would never return without my escort.  But if they are closing strictly for lack of business then that would really concern me. Certainly not to be found anywhere, in my experience anyway. - what a treasure this place is/was.

I wanted to respond to the notion that Cincinnati is losing its young people.  As a city we have some work to do, as a metro we are doing fine.

 

It took awhile, but I finally found population by age for 1990.  I will try to make this as concise as possible.  It sounds like they are comparing people who were around 15-24 (born 1966-1975 or so) in 1990 to the same group in 2000.  I extended this out to other age groups and to the metro for comparison.  For this case, the metro is the old boundary, which would be 1,817,000 in 1990 and 1,979,000 in 2000.   I think we could extrapolate for the estimated population of 2.1 million in 2005.

 

Hamilton County

Age 1990         Age 2000

5-9     65055    15-19    60987

10-14  58712    20-24    56941

15-19  59153    25-29    58201

20-24  65761    30-34    59493

25-29  75253    35-39    65260

30-34  75496    40-44    67713

 

If you add the 1990 15-24 year old category it is a drop of about 5.8% to the 2000 25-34 year old category.  Interestingly, there was a bigger drop in those born from 1956-1965, but that was not the story apparently.  It looks like the county did a better job of holding onto the younger people.  As I previously mentioned, I think the issue is that people within the metro are simply spreading out to suburban counties.  Everyone has migration in and out, but at least the metro is growing - I would say we need to focus on bringing people back to the city neighborhoods.  Many are doing well, but the ones that are losing are the middle-class areas (i.e. East Price Hill, Westwood, College Hill).  Just for comparison, this is the summary above for the metro:

 

Metro Cincinnati

Age 1990         Age 2000

5-9     140320   15-19    146141

10-14  130917   20-24   130839

15-19  130443   25-29   133383

20-24  137460  30-34    145218

25-29  161885  35-39    163470

30-34  161885  40-44    164469

 

So while those born from 1966-1975 decreased from 124914 in 1990 to 117694 in 2000 in Hamilton County, the metro total increased from 267903 to 278601.  On top of these current 25-34 year old individuals, there are 130839 people in 20-24 year old age group for 2000.  I don't care if they live in Mason, Milford, Loveland, or West Chester.  If you create an exciting product there is still a market for it, and the city needs to figure out how to draw this group.  Even if you draw only from Hamilton County, this seems like a good sized market.  To add more comparisons - for Ohio Columbus saw the biggest growth in those born 1966-1975, from 220500 to 246758 (Cincy was second) and Toledo changed from 102010 to 82743.  I mention these because it seems both have downtown entertainment so it shows you can do this with a wide array of market size and regardless of how it is trending.  So much for being concise.

 

 

It would be very cool, but no one has the money to start it.

 

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/08/genxwinners.html

 

Its just a steady, steep loss of young people... and its often the best and brightest. Its just dark days right now, I've got no idea how to fix it.

Great work on the above, it is nice to see some true quantitative work!

Hamilton County includes Mariemont, Evendale,Cheviot, Blue Ash, Loveland, Norwood, Reading, Wyoming,Forest Park, Deer Park, Milford, Madeira, Montgomery, etc. Hamilton County still has over double Cincinnati's population so those statistics aren't really relevent to Cincinnati proper.

Thanks for the thorough rundown...and it seems like your figures agree with what I saw from census data - the figure of 28K people leaving is, as yet, completely unsubstantiated.  Nick, again, do you have a link for that Citybeat quote, or any citations for data?

 

As I said, I have no doubt we're losing young people, and I agree completely with you about the city needing to grow the creative class (or else I wouldn't have given your campaign $100 and voted for you) - I'm just looking for hard data, and nothing anyone's turned up so far substantiates the claims you quoted from Citybeat.

 

 

    We seem to be losing the 20 to 25 age group for three reasons:

 

    The number of children born between 1966 to 1975 was smaller than the number from the previous group.

    The 20 to 25 age group is moving out of the metro to other cities.

    The 20 to 25 age group is moving from the core to the outer suburbs.

 

    Which one is the most important? I really don't know. I suspect that moving from the core to the suburbs is the biggest loss, but in any case all three reasons are taking the 20 to 25 crowd away from Main Street. And while it is still possible to drive to Main Street from, say, West Chester, the farther you are away the less likely you are to do it. It's easier to go someplace else that's closer.

 

    I listened to Marty say that baseball needs to attract more young people. They are having the same issues. Part of it may be that young people just aren't interested in baseball, but another part is that there just aren't as many young people near the stadium as there used to be.

 

I'll look around... but obviously, I think the region doesn't matter TOO much. If the future of nightlife and entertainment in the ciity depends on attracting suburbanites, we are totally screwed. As someone mentioned, they are just too far away. Hit a bar in Cincy, and leave at last call, and you are looking at a long, late night drive. Not gonna happen.

 

Look, I would argue statistical numbers only tell part of the story. For plenty of young people (and plenty of older folks) suburban life is fine. Believe me, I know, I grew up in Northern Kentucky. Those are people terrified of urban areas, people who don't have a great deal of taste (sorry).

 

But Cincinnati is a lousy place for creative, urban-oriented young people, and that's why so many of them leave. I mean, everyone sees this anecdotally, and the census (for the city and county) reflects this.

 

Here's what I don't think happens: young, creative urban types who are born here or go to UC here aren't leaving to move to Blue Ash. Tracking suburban growth is a tough thing to do, but I haven't really encountered many young people who tell me that's the plan. I do think some are moving to Covington and Newport, I'd agree with that.

 

Me, I concern myself with the city (and the county to a lesser extent). And those numbers are clear, and pretty awful.

 

But even with those young people in the region, the suburban types, you gotta believe the dissatisfaction levels are pretty high.

 

Look, I've always enjoyed this forum, and I appreciate that some folks are optimistic and want to look on the bright side. But as someone with a lot of firsthand experience in the urban core as a resident and business owner, I see far too much wrong with this place to believe its moving in the right direction.

Nick,

 

I respect your opinion and appreciate your efforts here, however many of us are not ready to throw in the towel and give up.  If leaving the Main St. Dist is what is best for your business I certainly will never fault you for that.  My thoughts are that many on Main St. now and in the past have put businesses here that they feel should work, not what the market tells them will work.  Main in its entertainment prime was new and fresh, what is it now?  Neons, still the same bar as it was in '91?  DV8 was wonderful (Will Benson was a friend of mine) but it was different and then when they decided to switch to high dollar door fee and bring in DJ's that no one had ever heard of, it lost business.  Tell me what is new, tell me how Main can compete when it is just the same Main st (less a few bars) as it was 10 years ago.  What is Dan Dell's marketing stategy with Main St. Live?  What is Alchemize's ?

 

No one wants to go to their parents bar, and many of the bars that are on Main have been there almost long enough to reach the last generation of club goers, not the present and certainly not the next.

I used Hamilton County because that was used in the example for our "steady, steep loss of young people".  I will try to find the city information.  To think there is no linkage between city and county, and city and metro is incorrect though.  I think this is where we miss a lot of opportunity as a region.  When Main Street was popular, I guarantee not everyone was from OTR and Clifton.  I knew a few regulars who were from Fairfield, Mason, and NKY.  I only go there for the Aquarium, but if you go to NOTL count the license plates from the different counties.  The same could be done for the Reds games, where I think almost half come from outside the metro.  You do not have to live in a particular zip code to use that amenity.  Of course I would prefer Hamilton County to have a population of 2 million with half of the people living in the city.  I think we need to do a better job of selling the city to people already in the metro, getting them to move to the cool, young areas.  It seems more relo's are willing to try Mt. Auburn or OTR than locals.  Maybe we can replicate Clifton and Oakley a few times. 

 

Hamilton County includes Mariemont, Evendale,Cheviot, Blue Ash, Loveland, Norwood, Reading, Wyoming,Forest Park, Deer Park, Milford, Madeira, Montgomery, etc. Hamilton County still has over double Cincinnati's population so those statistics aren't really relevent to Cincinnati proper.

I understand, but from my experience there seems to be more young people in the areas of Hamilton county outside of Cincinnati, particularly northeast.

 

There's nothing wrong with trying to attract people from other areas, it's possible but like Eigth and State said, the farther away they are, naturally, the less likely they are to come. That's just the reality of it. Less than 1/3 of people that attend MLB games are out-of-towners. I think it's important to improve the neighborhood as a whole not just fill the store-fronts on Main. If you can bring a bunch of young people to OTR or the CBD they're more likely to go to venues in that neighborhood but there's a lot of nice establishments in other areas that are hard to compete with, Forest Park, Covington, Newport, CBD, Mount Lookout/Hyde Park, Mt. Adams, etc

 

The only way Main street could sustain an entertainment district is if the neighborhood as a whole improves pretty drastically, and as much as city officials claim to care, they just don't. I don't know of many recent college grads that have moved to other cities after going to UC or Xavier unless they got a job offer, the ones I know, live in Hyde Park, Loveland, and Oakley, places fairly close. I don't think its very easy for a young person to suddenly throw in the towel and move to another city, that's a pretty big change in someone's life and requires a lot of planning. We have a pretty big student base here and the job market seems to be good from statistics I've read, we just lack centralized nightlife and entertainment and it's going to catch up to our apathetic city officials because the older people don't spend as much money and they don't have children that go on to work and replenish the city population like the young people will go on to do.

I am glad you are concerned about the city, but the city and county have been losing population for decades (most older cities still are as well, and the ones that are not have likely annexed).  I think we should finally bottom out in the next 10 years or so.  Anyway, look at the numbers and this is not age specific or creative class specific.  Main Street was a "destination" and depended heavily on the suburbs.  The riots occurred, the police slowed down for a couple of years and let the genie out of the bottle, and now they are having trouble getting the genie back in.  The media grabbed hold of the OTR is not safe theme, and presto, you lose your market for a bar district.  The city certainly has not helped, but these are the reasons the area is struggling, not because all the Gen X'ers left. 

 

Also, I find it difficult to understand that you dismiss actual numbers but readily accept anecdotal evidence.   That method of case building would get a lot of people fired pretty quickly.  I am sure people move away every day, but I also know that people move here every day.  If the Gen X'er had such a high level of dissatisfaction, why would that category increase by 11,000 over 10 years in the metro?    This is not to say there are no problems.  Obviously there are (since the city is losing population - and there are many reasons for the flow to the suburbs), and if the city can get OTR turned around I would think momentum would build from there.  Unfortunately, it seems they are distancing themselves from Main Street - who knows why?  It seems they are putting all their money on 3CDC at this point.  I would argue that city council is the one thing that has hurt this city more than anything else - it has been inept and inactive for at least the past 14 years.

 

 

Me, I concern myself with the city (and the county to a lesser extent). And those numbers are clear, and pretty awful.

 

But even with those young people in the region, the suburban types, you gotta believe the dissatisfaction levels are pretty high.

 

Look, I've always enjoyed this forum, and I appreciate that some folks are optimistic and want to look on the bright side. But as someone with a lot of firsthand experience in the urban core as a resident and business owner, I see far too much wrong with this place to believe its moving in the right direction.

I dont know, but I was in the Cincy area this past weekend.  I live in Harrison Township and me and 7 of my friends drove to Mainstrasse and went to Pechinkos (sp) then drove over to Hofbrahaus (sp) then went home (thanks DD.)  We met 3 girls who were from Florence doing the same thing.  I live in the 'burbs/country and I went to the city.  I know my sister has always done this and her and her boyfriend now reside in Norwood.  I definitely think suburban people can be lured to downtown and will do so as long as they have a DD.  I did.  If there is a true destination down there, it will be even easier to get people like me to go down there.  Btw, I want to move to the city when I get my degree and if there are people from Harrison who want the city life then there HAS to be twice that many people living in Mason lol.

Oh, come on.

 

Michael-- Nicely worded put-down. Yeah, its definitely the product down here that's causing the lack of foot traffic. Please. alchemize has been named "Best Bar" or "Best Nightclub" or (last year) "Best New" in pretty much every serious poll or award system. Purgatory, The Exchange, and Red Cheetah, while not my scene, are VERY good at what they do. Move these businesses into a safer area, and they'll likely triple in business.

 

As for Jeff Hall, RBC's and Neon's, those aren't nightclubs, they're bars. They shouldn't have to be reconcepted or changed, in fact, they should've strengthen with age. You say no one wants to go to their parents bar, but people go to bars like that in Mt. Adams or on the West Side all the time: places like Murphy's, Crowley's, Christy's, etc.

 

Again, this is not NYC. There isn't some new entertainment district out there that's draining all the business, or a bunch of newer, hotter bars popping up as competition. Bar openings have slowed to next to nothing in this town. And I consider that a sign that we're losing the audience altogether, and not replacing them. Whether its to the burbs or other cities, I could really give a damn.

 

The problem down here is not the product. Its safety, safety, safety. Too many crackheads and car break-ins. The city didn't do anything about it, now its collapsing.

 

And I think its cute that a lot of people on here don't think Cincinnati has a problem attracting and retaining young and creative people. I'll be sure to let the Brookings people know we have, in fact, fixed that problem.