^ Depends how big the multi-family is. If it is under 5 units it will trade on comps and not Cap rate

^ Depends how big the multi-family is. If it is under 5 units it will trade on comps and not Cap rate

7 units. Recently renovated.

It would depend on the street. In this market, and if it is in a prime location in OTR, probably 6-7 CAP. However, I would reach out to a broker to get their opinion on it before you would sell it because things are changing quickly as we are in a rising interest rate environment so CAP rates are probably going to trend up slightly.

It would depend on the street. In this market, and if it is in a prime location in OTR, probably 6-7 CAP. However, I would reach out to a broker to get their opinion on it before you would sell it because things are changing quickly as we are in a rising interest rate environment so CAP rates are probably going to trend up slightly.

 

Just talked with a broker. 6-7 is about right for OTR these days.

It seems like the listed prices of small multi-families has ticked upward into the unprofitable range in recent months.  All over town.  I don't know if it's out-of-town money buying this stuff with cash or why these sellers expect to sell for prices that will virtually guarantee a loss for the buyer. 

^ Yes, and Yes. There is a lot of coastal money coming into Cincy now. It has been seen as a hot market because they can get yield here (or at least think they can)

They are seeing Cap Rates in the 3% range which returns no yield. The problem is that the 3% CAP rate in Cali may lose money on a month to month basis but they get appreciation in the double digits. In Cincy, you can get a CAP in the 8-10% range but you don't get the appreciation. These investors froth at the mouth at the 6% Cap but are disappointed that they get zero appreciation and their profits are eaten up by the expense of property management on their 4 unit building. 

That's insane.  A 6-7 cap will get you an absolute net leased single tenant national credit retail property (i.e. basically no management required). 

 

Completely insane.  You can buy a Walgreens with 10 years left on the lease for 6-7 cap. 

 

I'd never buy multi-family at a 6-7 cap unless is was in a market that you were expecting significant appreciation, which typically isn't Ohio. But maybe that's just me.

 

 

 

^ Agreed. The problem is that reasonable Ohio investors get pushed out by Cali investors or need to put up more money to play along.

 

I would buy at a 7 Cap if I know I can create 30-40% revenue appreciation In the first 24-30 months.

Following I own double in Cleveland and thinking of adding another....

I'm aiming to buy something in 2020 which is why I keep following the listings but I'm leaning toward buying another single-family house at this point. 

 

In early 2016 I was under contract to buy a 2-family in Norwood for $63,000 and then the seller showed up to the inspection and interfered with the inspector.  The two almost got into an argument.  I watched the show from my parked car across the street.  The seller then stopped communicating so I just walked away.  He never asked for earnest money so I didn't lose anything other than the payment for the inspection.  That same property later sold for $75,000.  Now I doubt that you could get a 2-unit building in rentable condition anywhere in Norwood for under $100k and the east side of Montgomery can be much higher.   

 

Whoever is listing the 3-unit on Hammer St. in OTR is emblematic of the problem.  No way can you dependably make money on that thing...I think they have it listed around $380k so *everything* has to go right for you to earn any sort of short-term return. 

 

^ Jake, why not look to an inner suburb like Kennedy Heights or Silverton and even at a 2-4 family there. You can still get good prices in those areas with decent yields and they can cash flow well for you. Those are solid rental areas and solid working class neighborhoods. All the money is chasing things in OTR but there is a lot of value in the inner ring suburbs that were built out in the 50's

Yes I have already heard someone speculate that Silverton is a good buy.  It looks a lot like Western Hills (same sorts of small homes and multifamilies) but is likely to fare much better long-term due to its proximity to Kenwood, Madiera, etc.

 

There are "soft"  influences for a particular buyer -- i.e. perceived ease of management relative to that person's other property or properties and then the actual layout of the place.  A lot of those brick 4-families from the 1960s seem bulletproof but will require a bit of landscaping hassle/cost each year since they typically weren't built right on the street.  Meanwhile a shaggy home near UC or in Camp Washington or the West End that is built right on the sidewalk will have zero or almost zero landscaping costs.   

 

 

^No mulch! Pea gravel instead. Columbus is ridiculous about much.

Columbus is ridiculous about much.

 

Hmm.  Shall we play "typo, pun, or Freudian slip?" O:-)

Haha, nope, just meant mulch.

Yes I have already heard someone speculate that Silverton is a good buy.  It looks a lot like Western Hills (same sorts of small homes and multifamilies) but is likely to fare much better long-term due to its proximity to Kenwood, Madiera, etc.

 

There are "soft"  influences for a particular buyer -- i.e. perceived ease of management relative to that person's other property or properties and then the actual layout of the place.  A lot of those brick 4-families from the 1960s seem bulletproof but will require a bit of landscaping hassle/cost each year since they typically weren't built right on the street.  Meanwhile a shaggy home near UC or in Camp Washington or the West End that is built right on the sidewalk will have zero or almost zero landscaping costs.   

 

 

 

I get that, the yard work can be a hassle with the yards, albeit small ones. With the prices in the urban core being pushed so high, I figured going to a stable inner ring suburb with its own urban town center may be the next best option.

A small yard can be just as much work time-wise as a larger yard. 

 

Also, clean the gutters, people.  A guy on my street has small bushes and trees growing out of his gutters.  When it rains I can hear the water overflowing the gutters and slapping the concrete.  No doubt that it's going around and making its way in the house, somewhere. 

 

 

 

 

A small yard can be just as much work time-wise as a larger yard. 

 

Also, clean the gutters, people.  A guy on my street has small bushes and trees growing out of his gutters.  When it rains I can hear the water overflowing the gutters and slapping the concrete.  No doubt that it's going around and making its way in the house, somewhere.

 

That overflowing water will come right into the basement.

Didn't they just put those big balconies on the front of this thing about two years ago?

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1567982/3443-Shaw-Ave-Hyde-Park-OH-45208

 

That asking price is ridiculous, given the apparent need for a complete renovation.  $375 + $50k per unit for new hi-end kitchens and bathrooms puts you over $500k.  So you'd need to get $2k per unit to make any money with this thing. 

It looks like xumelanie[/member] and I will be putting our rental on the market for sale in a couple of months, so we won't be posting much more on this thread going forward.  We will post our experiences selling and paying taxes on the property though in case others are also interested in the specifics.

It looks like xumelanie[/member] and I will be putting our rental on the market for sale in a couple of months, so we won't be posting much more on this thread going forward.  We will post our experiences selling and paying taxes on the property though in case others are also interested in the specifics.

 

If you are still interested in being a landlord, you could use a 1031 exchange to avoid paying capital gains. 

 

 

Naw, we're done with our time as landlords.  It's not that much work, but with two kids and other interests it gets to be just another thing to worry about.

Naw, we're done with our time as landlords.  It's not that much work, but with two kids and other interests it gets to be just another thing to worry about.

 

You might look to diversify your retirement savings by buying rural land where you collect a small fee for hay or grazing that could offset the property tax (which would be very low if the land is a "working farm").  My dad pays about $2,000 in property tax on 88 acres of "working farm" and collects about $10,000 in income. 

There may be some back door ways to to sell a house and buy a REIT in a 1031 exchange too.  I think I remember reading about it once.

We're not in it for the gimmicks and don't mind paying taxes.  We just could use the cash for better things and no longer want any additional hassles.

Naw, we're done with our time as landlords.  It's not that much work, but with two kids and other interests it gets to be just another thing to worry about.

 

You might look to diversify your retirement savings by buying rural land where you collect a small fee for hay or grazing that could offset the property tax (which would be very low if the land is a "working farm").  My dad pays about $2,000 in property tax on 88 acres of "working farm" and collects about $10,000 in income. 

 

In Ohio those rules vary by county.

^ A REIT is going to be nearly impossible to do a 1031 given the classification of what a REIT is. While still complicated, a syndication is a much better vehicle to try and do a 1031 in this capacity. With a REIT you are going to run into asset classification issues that make it hard to do a like-kind exchange.

It sounds like he is ready to bite the bullet and sell and pay capital gains.  I can understand that logic as someone with a family and young kids.  I wouldn't want to deal with rental property on top of my regular gig.

In Ohio those rules vary by county.

 

Also, the county auditor online resources differ by county, making it difficult to guess what the tax situation will be.  I assume that a 1031 cuts you out of auctions, meaning you'd have to be pretty aggressive in seeking out your own land with a direct mail campaign to avoid getting a realtor involved.  If you send out $2,500 worth of direct mail in a rural area you will almost certainly find a few deals that will save you $10,000 or much more on a realtor, never mind the actual sales price. 

Can anyone recommend an attorney to assist in evicting the ex-girlfriend of a lodger in my primary residence?  I am renting a spare bedroom to a coworker month-to-month...his girlfriend moved in temporarily in February and has never paid me rent...but now that they have broken up just weeks later, she won't leave. She went on a big trip 2 weeks ago and blew all of her cash so claims she can't move out for that reason.  Too bad. 

 

I am willing to pay a lawyer to send a signal to her that I mean business.  She is causing chaos. 

Can anyone recommend an attorney to assist in evicting the ex-girlfriend of a lodger in my primary residence?  I am renting a spare bedroom to a coworker month-to-month...his girlfriend moved in temporarily in February and has never paid me rent...but now that they have broken up just weeks later, she won't leave. She went on a big trip 2 weeks ago and blew all of her cash so claims she can't move out for that reason.  Too bad. 

 

I am willing to pay a lawyer to send a signal to her that I mean business.  She is causing chaos.

post a 3 day notice on her door and then begin eviction process with muni court.

Even if she moves out, if she has a job, I would send her to collections to try and collect the back rent. Often it is a dead end but the calls will bug her for a while.

Can anyone recommend an attorney to assist in evicting the ex-girlfriend of a lodger in my primary residence?  I am renting a spare bedroom to a coworker month-to-month...his girlfriend moved in temporarily in February and has never paid me rent...but now that they have broken up just weeks later, she won't leave. She went on a big trip 2 weeks ago and blew all of her cash so claims she can't move out for that reason.  Too bad. 

 

I am willing to pay a lawyer to send a signal to her that I mean business.  She is causing chaos.

post a 3 day notice on her door and then begin eviction process with muni court.

 

She's not on a lease.  She is basically a house guest.  I didn't even know her last name until she decided to start harassing me on Facebook earlier this week (we are not "friends").

 

You know you hear a story that someone needs help and so you do them a favor and then they walk all over you. 

 

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice but see the attached link.  I believe this would be considered a verbal lease and as such you would proceed in the same manner.

 

http://ohiolandlordtenantblog.com/eviction-law/eviction-with-no-written-lease/

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice but see the attached link.  I believe this would be considered a verbal lease and as such you would proceed in the same manner.

 

http://ohiolandlordtenantblog.com/eviction-law/eviction-with-no-written-lease/

 

Thanks for the link. I am going downtown next Tuesday so I will pay a visit to the county offices if she's not out by then. 

 

 

Even if she moves out, if she has a job, I would send her to collections to try and collect the back rent. Often it is a dead end but the calls will bug her for a while.

 

 

The call is coming from INSIDE THE HOUSE!

Even if she moves out, if she has a job, I would send her to collections to try and collect the back rent. Often it is a dead end but the calls will bug her for a while.

 

 

The call is coming from INSIDE THE HOUSE!

 

 

What's hilarious is the phrase "find an apartment".  That phrase is still in use, 20 years after Craigslist eliminated classified ads, and made it a 3-minute chore to "find an apartment".  Yet people act like they cant "find an apartment". 

 

That said, people are really jacking the rent all around Cincinnati.  It's still cheap to buy in Cincinnati but people just can't get their act together and save up those $4,000 they need for an FHA loan down payment.   

 

 

 

 

Jake freefourur[/member]  is right, you will need to still give her a 3 day notice to get her out and have to go through the normal eviction process even though she does not have a written lease.

 

If I were you, I would go to courtclerk.org and to the muni forms section and print off the 3 day notice to vacate the premises and post it on her door TODAY.  This way the 3 day period can start to toll. Even if she does not leave in 3 days or it takes you a few extra days to talk to the court about proceeding with the formal eviction.  This will save you time to start the 3 day process today. You do not have to file the eviction on the 4th day, but you must have the 72 hour window go by before you file the eviction. That is why you post it on her door today.

Update:

 

She moved out over the weekend, and by she, I mean only her, not her stuff.  She is dragging her feet on getting her stuff out of the house, which includes pieces of furniture that are stacked and unused. 

 

Last night she showed back up to "party" with her ex-boyfriend.  I knocked on the door at 12:30am and asked if she was here to get her stuff out.  She wouldn't get off her phone, acted as if I was interrupting her on her property, and challenged me to call the police.  So I called the police and they offered to send someone over but she and the boyfriend left before I was off the phone.  No doubt they were worried that the police would be able to tell that they were "partying". 

 

My question now is do I need to continue with a formal eviction in order to pressure her to get her stuff out?  The police officer warned me that she is playing a game where she can claim a shred of a right to be in the house as long as some of her personal items are there. 

 

 

I don't know about the legality of removing her stuff but as casual observer it sounds like the ex bo might be an issue as well.

Update:

 

She moved out over the weekend, and by she, I mean only her, not her stuff.  She is dragging her feet on getting her stuff out of the house, which includes pieces of furniture that are stacked and unused. 

 

Last night she showed back up to "party" with her ex-boyfriend.  I knocked on the door at 12:30am and asked if she was here to get her stuff out.  She wouldn't get off her phone, acted as if I was interrupting her on her property, and challenged me to call the police.  So I called the police and they offered to send someone over but she and the boyfriend left before I was off the phone.  No doubt they were worried that the police would be able to tell that they were "partying". 

 

My question now is do I need to continue with a formal eviction in order to pressure her to get her stuff out?  The police officer warned me that she is playing a game where she can claim a shred of a right to be in the house as long as some of her personal items are there.

 

I would continue with a formal eviction so that she gets a deadline to remove her belongings from your house.  If the stuff isn't gone by that date, the sheriff will remove it. 

I don't know about the legality of removing her stuff but as casual observer it sounds like the ex bo might be an issue as well.

 

I am not a lawyer but do not remove her belongings on your own.  I think that this is against the law in Ohio and she might have a claim against you.  and yes, I might talk to the ex-bf too.  If he isn't a close friend, I might ask him to leave and include him in the eviction. 

I don't know about the legality of removing her stuff but as casual observer it sounds like the ex bo might be an issue as well.

 

He was completely normal until he met this girl.  She is tricking him.  As a mutual friend observed, "this is really sad to watch". 

You cannot put stuff out yet. You need the 3-day eviction notice on the door, then a hearing which takes a couple weeks, get approval then put a 5-day notice on the door. At least that's how it works in Franklin County.

Update:

 

She moved out over the weekend, and by she, I mean only her, not her stuff.  She is dragging her feet on getting her stuff out of the house, which includes pieces of furniture that are stacked and unused. 

 

Last night she showed back up to "party" with her ex-boyfriend.  I knocked on the door at 12:30am and asked if she was here to get her stuff out.  She wouldn't get off her phone, acted as if I was interrupting her on her property, and challenged me to call the police.  So I called the police and they offered to send someone over but she and the boyfriend left before I was off the phone.  No doubt they were worried that the police would be able to tell that they were "partying". 

 

My question now is do I need to continue with a formal eviction in order to pressure her to get her stuff out?  The police officer warned me that she is playing a game where she can claim a shred of a right to be in the house as long as some of her personal items are there. 

 

 

I would file the eviction against the boyfriend too. He is responsible for bringing her to the house and also inviting her back to party. You do not want her on the property. She is not on the lease and is a trespasser from your vantage point. He is going to keep inviting her back to hook up with her until he finds someone else regardless of whether or not she lives there. You DO NOT want her on the property.

 

What we typically do is give both parties a 3 day notice. Let the boyfriend know that he can stay so long as she does not come over anymore. She cannot visit him or hang out with him on the property. IF he has her over, then he will be kicked out. As for the girlfriend, give her a notice that she is no longer allowed on the premises. If she is on the property (other than his room to which he is invited) she will be deemed a trespasser and subject to arrest. Give a copy of this letter to the local police station so they have notice and she has notice of the change in her status. Therefore, if you see her on your porch or hanging out in the living room, you can have her removed (If she is in his room, she is deemed a visitor which is why you put pressure on him too).

 

Point being, make sure they know you mean business or else they will both continue playing this game with you. He may be a good guy, but he is easily manipulated by the power of the p***y.

Thanks everyone for their help. 

 

What background check services do people recommend?  I could not find anything on her but I am now told that she is on a do-not-rent list and that's what is keeping her from finding a place.  That's also why she needs the boyfriend -- to have someone who can get a lease get her a place to live. 

 

 

 

 

A background check company is not going to show if someone is on a do not rent list. It sounds like Uptown wont rent anything to her and maybe a few other larger landlords are familiar with her. You will need to call prior landlords to get this information. Background check only shows evictions and criminal activities and bill payment history, etc.

 

If she is a complete sh*t show, and cant get a lease in her name, then prior landlords will share this information.

 

Also, we always put in our leases that tenants cannot invite others to live with them without our prior approval and adding them to the lease. If a tenant wants the girlfriend to move in with them, even though it is their apartment, we have the right to say no. If the girlfriend stays over routinely more than a few days per month, we have the right to kick them out over that.  Point being, you want to know who is staying on your property at all times because sometimes the wolf can sneak in the back door by moving in with a significant other.

 

I cant tell you how many times the girlfriend gets an apartment and then quietly tries to move in their boyfriend who is a drug dealer, sex offender or other undesirable tenant, you have the ability to get them out quickly.

Also, we always put in our leases that tenants cannot invite others to live with them without our prior approval and adding them to the lease. If a tenant wants the girlfriend to move in with them, even though it is their apartment, we have the right to say no. If the girlfriend stays over routinely more than a few days per month, we have the right to kick them out over that.  Point being, you want to know who is staying on your property at all times because sometimes the wolf can sneak in the back door by moving in with a significant other.

 

I cant tell you how many times the girlfriend gets an apartment and then quietly tries to move in their boyfriend who is a drug dealer, sex offender or other undesirable tenant, you have the ability to get them out quickly.

 

That's excellent advice.  I haven't had to deal with that situation until now, except the genders are reversed. 

 

So far in my rental career I have done very well with finding good people through my personal network.  This is the first time I have been burned by a friend-of-a-friend.  I was burned awhile back by a female outside my personal network who responded to my ad.  Her references checked out - her boss was a real dude and spoke highly of her.  Then she turned out to be an alcoholic and had the strange habit of getting drunk and then putting on and taking off makeup repeatedly during a drinking binge.  She sat indian-style in front of a mirror while doing this.  Whenever she stood up she had to steady her drunk self and put endless makeup stains on the walls.  Yes, I had painted a week before she moved in.  I repainted after she moved out with the same can of paint but the color didn't quite match. 

 

 

 

 

^ Jake, no matter what you do, and how well you screen, you will get burned sometimes. The key is having flexibility to get them out when you need too.

 

We once had a tenant who invited his friend and friend of a friend to move in with him without telling us. The friend of the friend was a bad dude with multiple warrants outstanding. When we found out of this we told him he had to leave and was not to come to the premises. It turned out he did not listen and caused a standoff with the cops over it. Sometimes, your tenants don't exercise good judgment, that is why you need to protect yourself from their stupidity.

^ Jake, no matter what you do, and how well you screen, you will get burned sometimes. The key is having flexibility to get them out when you need too.

 

We once had a tenant who invited his friend and friend of a friend to move in with him without telling us. The friend of the friend was a bad dude with multiple warrants outstanding. When we found out of this we told him he had to leave and was not to come to the premises. It turned out he did not listen and caused a standoff with the cops over it. Sometimes, your tenants don't exercise good judgment, that is why you need to protect yourself from their stupidity.

 

Yes, and this is all why it's necessary to own cashflowing properties AND have a nice reserve.  I suspect that a lot of landlords (and not just accidental ones) get into big trouble -- they allow bad tenants to stay around as long as they are paying because they're desperate for every check that comes in.