There has been some speculation about this for awhile. It would probably make more sense for their tap room to be located at this new facility, which is near Oakley Station, rather than their current, somewhat obscure location.

I think this would be a great addition to Oakley! The old RockTenn site is huge, and it would be great to clean that up, and create an active node there, right on Madison.  I dislike going to MadTree currently because its location is out of the way, and it feels like you're drinking in some cheap suburban warehouse- there's no charm or ambiance at all.  With the large apartment development adjacent to this site, the core of Oakley is really starting to extend all the way to Ridge.

^"Out of the way"?  If you're coming by car, it's literally 30 seconds or less from any of NB or SB 71 or the Norwood lateral.  Yes, it's not on a bus line, and it's certainly not walkable, but the vast majority of Madtree's customers don't care about that.

 

Given the clientele most craft breweries are going for, I would actually wager that of all the breweries in greater Cincinnati, Madtree is currently the easiest to get to, with Rivertown and Eight Ball in the mix.

Rivertown is in an area most people aren't familiar with. I think most craft beer drinkers don't care how easy it is to get to a brewery. They find their favorite one and usually go back often.

^"Out of the way"?  If you're coming by car, it's literally 30 seconds or less from any of NB or SB 71 or the Norwood lateral.  Yes, it's not on a bus line, and it's certainly not walkable, but the vast majority of Madtree's customers don't care about that.

 

Given the clientele most craft breweries are going for, I would actually wager that of all the breweries in greater Cincinnati, Madtree is currently the easiest to get to, with Rivertown and Eight Ball in the mix.

 

Out of the way as in it's not near anything else that people go to. Madtree does have good highway access I guess, but I just think of it as being kind of in no man's land between Pleasant Ridge/Kennedy Hts and Oakley.

^"Out of the way"?  If you're coming by car, it's literally 30 seconds or less from any of NB or SB 71 or the Norwood lateral.  Yes, it's not on a bus line, and it's certainly not walkable, but the vast majority of Madtree's customers don't care about that.

 

Given the clientele most craft breweries are going for, I would actually wager that of all the breweries in greater Cincinnati, Madtree is currently the easiest to get to, with Rivertown and Eight Ball in the mix.

 

It's not "hard to get to", it's just in a weird location. That whole area is confusing and you have to get there a different way based on what direction you're coming from. This new site would be more accessible to people who are already in the Oakley Station shopping plaza, not to mention walkable for the people that live there.

I think currently, MadTree is in a location thats hiding in plain sight. You can see it, but aren't always sure how to get there. Thank god for GPS.

 

I believe that if they move to the proposed site in Oakley, their business will absolutely explode....in a good way.

All this talk about breweries and highway access is starting to make me squirm. ;)

 

People don't go to microbreweries for the beer.  They go because it's "somewhere different" to go.  People of a certain class and over a certain age don't go to neighborhood bars but they will go to a microbrewery in their neighborhood. 

^Absolutely false

Seriously false. People travel to go to microbreweries specifically to try out their beers. It's not just to go "somewhere different." People enjoy beer and want to go to places to enjoy their specific brand of beer.

 

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Don't listen to Jake. He's just trying to get a rise out of people.

To be fair, there are still a good number of people at microbreweries who don't care that much about the beer. I squirm whenever I'm at the Moerlein Lager House or a place like HalfCut and see someone order a Bud Light.

It's totally true. Much the same way people go to wineries because it sounds like a thing they should do. Not everyone is a wine snob yet everyone seems keen to go hang out at a winery and get a bit drunk. Nothing wrong with that.

In situations where there is food involved it's a different story. Someone at Moerlein might not like craft beer but is still there with their family enjoying dinner and the view.

 

Even places like Rhinegeist that have so many other activities going on invite people who might not necessarily care about the beer that much (I don't drink and go there quite often with friends). But places that are primarily about beer with no frills don't generally attract people who don't care about beer unless they're just tagging along.

I have been to most all the breweries in cincy except madtree and rivertown. All of the others are near downtown or otr or northside and feel like they are in a place. I've seen madtree a hundred times from the highway going 60 but couldn't tell you how to get there at all. (Plus who wants to see their craft brewery the same way they see a fast food restaurant from a highway with a lit pole sign?) And being in a place that is accessible to a car and highway when you sell beer seems counter intuitive, alcohol and cars aren't meant to mix, hence why the new location suggested with better pedestrian and transit connections would be much better. I will go there at some point but i can try all their beers at half-cut or most local bars and avoid a pretty expensive cab/über back to Covington.

The Best Cities for Beer Drinkers

Nick Wallace  DEC 28, 2015

 

 

10. Cincinnati, Ohio

The first of three Ohio cities to rank among the top 25 best cities for beer drinkers, Cincinnati has a rich history as a producer and exporter of great beer. That history stretches as far back as the mid-19th century, when Cincinnati emerged as one of the leading producers of beer in the entire country.

While much has changed since those early days, Cincinnati is still a top beer city. It has 14 different breweries, including popular microbreweries like MadTree and Rhinegeist. For those who want a taste of the past, the city’s Brewery District offers tours of the pre-Prohibition brewery buildings, some of which are more than 100 years old.

 

 

We may be living in the golden age of good beer. According to the Brewers Association, there are more breweries and brewpubs in the United States today than at any point in the past century. And the number is only increasing. In 2014 alone, 456 new microbreweries opened for business in the U.S. That’s more than the total number of U.S. microbreweries in operation as recently as 2008.

 

https://smartasset.com/mortgage/best-cities-beer-drinkers

I went tonight for the first time since right after they opened and Urban Artifact has done a great job modifying the acoustics of their performance area.  The Blue Wisp Big Band sounds much better in this space than they did in the most recent and final Blue Wisp location.  I don't know how they lucked into getting a church with a basement that with minimal modification was made into an ideal acoustic space but they did.  It reminds me of how unintentionally good the acoustics were at the defunct Buzz Coffee House (now the hookah bar at the corner of Jefferson & University). 

^I completely agree and highly recommend going to Urban Artifact on a Wednesday evening to see the Blue Wisp Big Band to anyone who hasn't done so yet. The sour beers are pretty good too if you are into that sort of thing.

Confirmed:

 

http://www.wlwt.com/news/madtree-to-build-18m-brewery-taproom-in-oakley/37289768

 

MadTree to build $18M brewery, taproom in Oakley

Brewery to eventually employ 90

 

OAKLEY —A Cincinnati brewer is expanding in Oakley.

 

MadTree Brewing announced Wednesday that it is beginning work on a new $18 million production brewery, taproom, and event center in Oakley, about one mile away from its current location.

 

The company will renovate the former RockTenn building at 3301 Madison Avenue, allowing them to more than quadruple their production.

That hangar-like space is going to be absolutely stunning. Such a huge improvement over their current space.

 

 

This is great news for Madtree, and I'm happy that they have the demand to merit expansion and are able to move into such a unique space.

 

However. I am once again frustrated by the "assistance" that will be provided by the City and State, i.e. $$$. What about this move/expansion merits public money? The renovation/ rehab of the Rocktenn space? A carrot to keep the brewery in the region? They are moving a mile. 5280 feet. If they believe that moving to a larger space will enable them to expand in a profitable manner, then they should do so. If the move is not financially feasible, then they should not make the move, and no public money should be made available. Doing so is a gross distortion of the free market. Just my two cents.

Technically, I believe Madtree is currently in Columbia Township, so the city is adding a large business that will be the 2nd/3rd largest brewery in the tristate for the foreseeable future.

If the move is not financially feasible, then they should not make the move, and no public money should be made available. Doing so is a gross distortion of the free market. Just my two cents.

 

We don't have a free market though. Municipalities and states are competing for companies and if $1 in subsidy nets $5 in taxes over 10 years then it is worth it. These deals and the overall strategy deserve scrutiny and a greater emphasis on cost-benefit analysis, but the practice itself is reasonable. Most of these deals are tied to significant private investment and a commitment to add a minimum number of jobs. We don't yet know what the public subsidy is going to be, but here we get an $18 million project happening at the edge of a walkable neighborhood business district and an expansion of an operation that will ideally justify the subsidy. Incentives for new investment is very different than simply subsidizing the move of an existing operation.

Technically, I believe Madtree is currently in Columbia Township, so the city is adding a large business that will be the 2nd/3rd largest brewery in the tristate for the foreseeable future.

 

I don't know much about the specifics of our local brewing scene. Are you considering Sam Adams (which is kind of a local brewer, but not really)? I'm just guessing, but I assume the top 4 today would be Sam Adams, Rhinegeist, Moerlein, Mad Tree. With Mad Tree's expansion (which will "quadruple" their production), would they surpass both Rhinegeist and Moerlein? Both Rhinegeist and Moerlein also seem to be growing quickly, so it's a question of how quickly each continues to grow. I don't really have a preference between those three big local breweries (Rhinegeist, Moerlein, and MadTree). I'm just glad to see all of them doing so well and expanding quickly.

I usually leave Sam Adams out of the discussion. They sponsor some local events are likely produce the largest amount of beer in the city, but they don't have a tap room and don't say Cincinnati on any of their products (except Angry Orchard) so I have a hard time including them in the discussion.

 

My list of largest is Moerlein, Rhinegeist, and MadTree. Though they don't consistently release their production every year, so it's hard to really tell who is the largest. Also, it complicates things if you include Hudepohl in the Moerlein numbers.

 

Moerlein to tripled their capacity recently. MadTree is quadrupling theirs, and every time I visit Rhinegeist they have two more fermenters in their brewery. I would love it if there was a consistent annual report from Ohio Craft Brewers Association or something that gave numbers. Maybe there is.

For reference, I found that (in March) Rhinegeist expected to sell 30,000 barrels of beer in 2015. Their expansion last year means that when all of the fermenters are up and running, they will produce 50,000/year. But they consistently exceed their predicted volume, so I wouldn't be surprised if they break that number by late fall this year. They also stated that with additional fermenters, they could bring production to 100,000 barrels with the current space.

 

Moerlein has recently tripled capacity, thanks in part to Hudepohl being brewed in OTR again, I believe.

 

I don't know what the base numbers are for MadTree or Moerlein. So I don't really know what tripled or quadruple mean in real numbers.

 

The 50th largest craft brewery produces 60,000 barrels (Breckenridge).

 

Great Lakes produced 149,000 barrels in 2014.

This is great news for Madtree, and I'm happy that they have the demand to merit expansion and are able to move into such a unique space.

 

However. I am once again frustrated by the "assistance" that will be provided by the City and State, i.e. $$$. What about this move/expansion merits public money? The renovation/ rehab of the Rocktenn space? A carrot to keep the brewery in the region? They are moving a mile. 5280 feet. If they believe that moving to a larger space will enable them to expand in a profitable manner, then they should do so. If the move is not financially feasible, then they should not make the move, and no public money should be made available. Doing so is a gross distortion of the free market. Just my two cents.

 

We don't have a free market though. Municipalities and states are competing for companies and if $1 in subsidy nets $5 in taxes over 10 years then it is worth it. These deals and the overall strategy deserve scrutiny and a greater emphasis on cost-benefit analysis, but the practice itself is reasonable. Most of these deals are tied to significant private investment and a commitment to add a minimum number of jobs. We don't yet know what the public subsidy is going to be, but here we get an $18 million project happening at the edge of a walkable neighborhood business district and an expansion of an operation that will ideally justify the subsidy. Incentives for new investment is very different than simply subsidizing the move of an existing operation.

 

The only way you're going to eliminate these types of subsidies is if you passed a state law making it illegal for municipalities to give incentives to poach businesses away from other municipalities within the state. That would have prevented situation like this, where MadTree was given incentives to move 1 mile from a township into the city limits.

 

However, you could only make that law apply for intra-state poaching, because if Ohio banned all subsidies, Kentucky and Indiana would start offering incentives to lure Ohio businesses. And if Ohio could not offer the same incentives, those businesses would leave. So I view these incentives as sort-of a necessary evil.

This article does a pretty good job of listing breweries' projected production for 2015 at the beginning of the year.

 

Assuming MadTree is looking at quadrupling their 2015 production, that would mean they could expand from 20,000 barrels to 80,000 once everything is finished.

 

Rhinegeist would be at 50,000 barrels this year with the possibility to quickly expand to 100,000 barrels in the future.

 

2015 projected production in barrels:

 

Rhinegeist: 30,000

MadTree: 20,000

Rivertown: 13,000

Taft's Ale House: ~4,500 (opened in April)

Braxton: 2,000 (opened in March)

Hofbrauhaus Newport: 2,000

Ei8ht Ball: 1,444

Old Firehouse: ~1,300

Fifty West: 1,250

Listermann/Triple Digit: 1,200

Rock Bottom: 1,100

Blanks Slate: 1,000

Tap & Screw: 1,000

Cellar Dweller: 600

Bad Tom: 350

DogBerry: 200

 

Christian Moerlein, Sam Adams, Mt. Carmel did not release numbers.

I'm happy to see that the original investors have seen a return on what they put in (which I seem to remember was a little over $1 million divided between three major investors and then about 20 guys who put in $10,000 each) but I'm pretty skeptical that they'll see a return on...cue dramatic music...$18 million.  That's just a *huge* amount of money.  I assume that that's mostly the original shareholders reinvesting back into this expansion, and not loans, but now they're incredibly vulnerable to a recession, competition from another microbrewery in that area, and the passing of the microbrew fad.  If each of those factors cuts 10% into their projections, then they're not making money anymore and everyone starts arguing and blaming eachother. 

Business is a risky endeavor. I'm fairly confident they will be successful, but it's definitely a lot of money.

So what happens to the old Madtree building?  They might have to buy it simply to keep the owner from leasing it to another upstart microbrewery.  So much of the place is already set up for brewing that it would be a huge advantage to a new tenant. 

 

I remember that they chose that location in part because it had a well and they thought they were going to save a money on using well water, but the pump broke right away and they had to shell out big money to get a new pump installed. 

Breweries collaborate really well. They aren't going to try to quash new breweries from opening up near them.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that microbreweries are not just a fad though. I know a handful of people who always drink High Life or something like that, but you almost can not find a restaurant or bar that does not have multiple local craft beers on tap. It's not like all of those taps are going to switch back to Miller Lite in a few months.

Word around the campfire is that Blank Slate is taking delivery quite soon of additional equipment to increase production to fourth or fifth on that list.  A canning line is also part of the expansion.

Word around the campfire is that Blank Slate is taking delivery quite soon of additional equipment to increase production to fourth or fifth on that list.  A canning line is also part of the expansion.

 

From this article: http://queencitydrinks.com/interview/catching-up-with-blank-slate-brewing-company/

 

Blank Slate expects to increase production to 2,000-2,400 with their current expansion.

This article claims that their brewing equipment could bring them up to 400,000 barrels. It doesn't appear to be a typo.

 

If they really did that, only 6 craft breweries would have a larger production. The article doesn't give a source for the 400,000 number (not sure if it was given to them or if they extrapolated the brewing capacity by brewing space and found a potential maximum annual production). But that would be a game changer for the region.

All please take a look at this list...at #3 you will see rapid expansion as a primary reason why small businesses fail:

 

http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/05/top-10-reasons-small-businesses-fail/?_r=0

 

Even if they aren't going into a ton of debt to finance this expansion, it means that they are complicating the ownership structure.  Some new investors are probably coming in, and minor shareholders might be becoming more significant if they chose to invest new money outside of their MadTree dividends.  Whatever balance existed before is inevitably upset by new guys who weren't there "at the beginning". 

 

ok

All please take a look at this list...at #3 you will see rapid expansion as a primary reason why small businesses fail:

 

http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/05/top-10-reasons-small-businesses-fail/?_r=0

 

Even if they aren't going into a ton of debt to finance this expansion, it means that they are complicating the ownership structure.  Some new investors are probably coming in, and minor shareholders might be becoming more significant if they chose to invest new money outside of their MadTree dividends.  Whatever balance existed before is inevitably upset by new guys who weren't there "at the beginning". 

 

Very true, but breweries aren't your typical small business.  I would expect that the high demand for beer and the price insensitivity of the average micro brew drinker, coupled with the relatively high margin that a taproom has (since you cut out both the distributor and the retailer), are enough to make that list vary substantially for breweries as compared to other small businesses.  I suppose that any change in the ownership mix does carry risk, though.

 

Overall, I get the sense that this expansion will be a good thing for Mad Tree.  They're already brewing some of the best beer in the region.

^ That's a very good point about tap rooms being high margin. I'd be very curious to see how much of Rhinegeist's overall profit comes from their tap room versus their retail/bar sales. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a significant percentage. The profit margin on a pint sold in their own brewery has to be very high compared to retail sales of cans. I wouldn't be shocked if they netted $4 - $5 of profit on every $6 pint they sold.

Very true, but breweries aren't your typical small business. .

 

Leveraged growth poses the same risk for a brewery as any other type of business.  And risk isn't some cute little thing.  A failed investment can completely ruin your life. 

 

I think a lot of the (financial) success of the current microbrew trend is the taprooms.  They are more casual spaces than were the restaurant and bar-type microbreweries of the 1990s.  People take visitors from out-of-town to the taprooms more than they did the old microbreweries.  People who don't go to bars will go to a taproom periodically.  I don't think the different beer styles that are prevalent currently have anything to do with it. 

 

^ That's a very good point about tap rooms being high margin. I'd be very curious to see how much of Rhinegeist's overall profit comes from their tap room versus their retail/bar sales. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a significant percentage. The profit margin on a pint sold in their own brewery has to be very high compared to retail sales of cans. I wouldn't be shocked if they netted $4 - $5 of profit on every $6 pint they sold.

 

The brand of these beers is tied up in the character of their taprooms as much as their packaging and whatever other marketing they do.  These microbreweries won't ever be able to do Superbowl ads and sponsor NASCAR teams, so the image of their tap rooms is paramount.  Currently the success of the image of these taprooms has been accidental...for whatever reason people like hanging out in MadTree's current undecorated warehouse space.  In time there will be fatal car wrecks, fights or shootings, and the other sorts of things that happen at bars.  And since so many people are at these places compared to neighborhood bars, that sort of thing might happen more regularly than people imagine.  Eventually someone's going to suffer a critical injury on Rhinegeist's steps, and similar problems will occur at the others. 

^ Your point is correct that a distributor and retailer take a huge cut of the price of a can compared to a pint sold through a taproom, but it's more complicated than saying Rhinegeist nets $4-5 per taproom pint.  At the stage each Cincinnati brewery is in its life cycle right now, all of them - from Madtree to Fibonacci - are plowing all or almost all of their revenue back into capital.  A brewery start up is hugely capital intensive, and to expand requires large investments.  I overheard conversations among a couple of Madtree's shareholders a year ago that they hadn't yet seen return on their investment, but that that was expected in the business. 

 

^ That's a very good point about tap rooms being high margin. I'd be very curious to see how much of Rhinegeist's overall profit comes from their tap room versus their retail/bar sales. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a significant percentage. The profit margin on a pint sold in their own brewery has to be very high compared to retail sales of cans. I wouldn't be shocked if they netted $4 - $5 of profit on every $6 pint they sold.

 

The brand of these beers is tied up in the character of their taprooms as much as their packaging and whatever other marketing they do.  These microbreweries won't ever be able to do Superbowl ads and sponsor NASCAR teams, so the image of their tap rooms is paramount.  Currently the success of the image of these taprooms has been accidental...for whatever reason people like hanging out in MadTree's current undecorated warehouse space.  In time there will be fatal car wrecks, fights or shootings, and the other sorts of things that happen at bars.  And since so many people are at these places compared to neighborhood bars, that sort of thing might happen more regularly than people imagine.  Eventually someone's going to suffer a critical injury on Rhinegeist's steps, and similar problems will occur at the others.

 

I'm really having trouble seeing how a discussion of the margin of a taproom vs retail sale led you to a monologue about fights and shootings.

Most bars hold nowhere close to the number of people that regularly climb and descend Rhinegeist's steps every Friday and Saturday, and the new Madtree looks like it will be at least as large (actually, according to the Google Earth measure tool, Rhinegeist's main space is 200x100 feet and the arched building MadTree just bought is about 150x130, so both will be approx 18-19,000 sq feeet).  When you have that many drunk people, the chances of weird stuff increases.  I have never seen any security working at Rhinegeist (I don't know about MadTree, I've only been there two or three times).  Rhinegeist's staircase situation is especially risky. 

I got a skin burn going down the slide at New Belgium. Should I sue?  :-o

Looks like they should put some of Clark Griswold's non-stick spray on there.

Construction underway on one of Cincinnati's newest breweries

 

 

One of Cincinnati's newest breweries is under construction with plans to be open by this spring.

 

Nine Giant Brewing signed a lease at the corner of Montgomery and Ridge roads in January 2015, and construction is now underway. Co-founder Brandon Hughes told me he's aiming to open at the site by May.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/01/22/construction-underway-on-one-of-cincinnatis-newest.html

Not really newsworthy, but worth sharing: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2016/02/sam-adams-founder-to-craft-brewers-we-can-win-the.html

 

Sam Adams founder to craft brewers: 'We can win' the fight with megabreweries

Craft brewers can’t stop innovating and can’t succumb to infighting if the industry wants to continue to take on the macrobreweries.

 

That’s the message Jim Koch, founder and CEO of Boston Beer Co., also known as Samuel Adams, conveyed to more than 300 Ohio Craft Brewers Association members at the trade group’s annual conference Wednesday in Dayton.

...

Koch, a Cincinnati native, spoke for an hour in a speech that was part knowledge gained from 30 years in business and part love letter to beer itself – at one point he compared the freedom a winemaker has to the missionary position, while equating brewing to having the Kama Sutra.

Woodburn Brewery just got their equipment delivered today.

 

Nine Giant announced they plan on being open in May (construction has started)

 

Darkness Brewing in Bellevue, KY is still under construction. No word yet on an anticipated opening.