I think we're talking past each other. I don't oppose on-street parking. But I do believe that the street needs to be downsized and redesigned to spur population and business growth along it.

I think we're talking past each other. I don't oppose on-street parking. But I do believe that the street needs to be downsized and redesigned to spur population and business growth along it.

We’re not talking past each other Ken. You just didn’t read what I wrote. We’re on the same page.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

🙃

On 11/17/2023 at 10:27 PM, KJP said:

 

Yep, and even more places to linger. I covered a public meeting where Crocker Park was being proposed and when Bob Stark suggested a street as a place to enjoy and linger, he got a few incredulous laughs from the Westlakers in the audience. 

Times Square is so much more loved now that they've added on-street parking, eh? 

Or look at the pedestrian areas in almost any old European city or in Asia.  Do the cars really enhance the experience?

 

Design for the elderly and the children on foot, then the cyclists, then the buses and mass transit, and last for the cars.  Design Places for people.  That doesn't mean "no cars, ever" or "no on-street parking" -- it means we make the place for cars in whatever space is left after we meet the other needs.

 

I agree with others here that a bikeway in the median on Superior seems odd (maybe because we still do not have a bike network to connect it to).  It might be better on one side of the street with a true tree lawn and trees protecting the cyclists from the car traffic.  Wide sidewalk with trees then dual-direction bike lane stepped down from the sidewalk, another row of trees, then parking, then the car lanes and another line of trees on the far side of the street.  That's how I'd do it.

The thing I don’t understand about doing this midway, is that they don’t want people on bikes to venture into any of the businesses along Superior. Isolate them in the middle of 2-3 lanes of traffic each way.
 

What are we doing here?

The thing l don't understand is why people think there are a ton of cars on Superior east of E.9th because there's not all that many. And if anyone using the midway wanted to access a building on the route all they have to do is use a crosswalk. 

 

Let's make lemonade out of a lemon. We already have this extra wide street with probably a third of the traffic using it that it was designed for. We construct an attractive (large trees and suitable landscaping) medium and to top it off, large trees on the sidewalks as well. If done right the midway becomes a draw which encourages businesses and people to move there. 

 

If all that takes place then we can worry about the increased traffic. Build it first - worry about popularity later. 

On 11/19/2023 at 10:57 AM, mrnyc said:

 

no it isnt. lingering is for a purpose like dining and shopping, loitering is literally the opposite, without purpose. 

 

and neither prolonged, nor were “the downfall of many enclosed malls.” thats fake news trumpspeak.

 

Dining and shopping are the exact point of CP.  The streets are seen as a way to get to the stores and restaurants, not as places to gather in their own right.  When those people hear "lingering" they meant the latter, especially since that's likely what Stark meant.  An unspoken reason for Crocker Park was to build a dense outdoor commercial district without what are seen as the drawbacks of an actual downtown, that being one of them.

 

Impromptu street gathering is a city/inner ring thing that a lot of suburban (and other) people are quite uncomfortable with.  Hell, even my Cleveland neighborhood has been trying to get rid of the adjacent "open air bar". While St. Clair - Superior is in the city, it should be kept in mind that when lingering becomes loitering, it generates no economic activity and indeed can repel some.

Let's keep this to actual development news.

Are there any updates on this (imo) disaster waiting to happen?

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/10/seeds-sprouts-xii-early-intel-on-real.html

 

Hopefully the project is dead and the old Ezella theater can be rescued.

 

https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/8354

 

Many performing groups are looking for space and there is a severe lack of that on the east side of the city, (I always need to specify the city so that Clevelanders don't bring up the Heights.)

that is a very neat website

2 hours ago, MVH said:

Are there any updates on this (imo) disaster waiting to happen?

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/10/seeds-sprouts-xii-early-intel-on-real.html

 

Hopefully the project is dead and the old Ezella theater can be rescued.

 

https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/8354

 

Many performing groups are looking for space and there is a severe lack of that on the east side of the city, (I always need to specify the city so that Clevelanders don't bring up the Heights.)

 

Haven't heard a peep about this in a long time.

21 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Haven't heard a peep about this in a long time.

 

Phew, lol.

The theater looks in decent shape from the outside. A clear view of the back can be had from Addison Rd.

 

Cleveland AGA Building to fuel start-ups
By Ken Prendergast / February 13, 2024

 

Like many of Cleveland’s historic but vacant commercial buildings, the former American Gas Association (AGA) laboratory in Cleveland’s St. Clair-Superior neighborhood is about to get renovated for a new use. Unlike many other buildings, this one isn’t being converted into apartments. Instead, its new uses are intended to create long-term jobs and new businesses, especially among young women and minorities.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/02/13/cleveland-aga-building-to-fuel-start-ups/

Great news, that's a cool building!

The Brownhoist is a Budding Home for Cleveland Creatives

 

The historic building is changing its tune to bring new artistic collaborations and event programming to the city. By Annie Nickolof

 

https://clevelandmagazine.com/entertainment/music/articles/the-brownhoist-is-a-budding-home-for-cleveland-creatives

 

--

 

I've been here many times since it was acquired by the new owner (very friendly guy btw, always happy to give a tour). The space is very cool! Worth a visit! I've sometimes wondered how they actually make enough money, but I'm glad they seem to be figuring it out! Hopefully this building can serve as a anchor for the revitalization of this area, it could use it. I'd also love to see the basement speakeasy fully figured out, I don't believe it has regular hours just yet, though I could be wrong. 

^ Nice! These types of places are seeds planted for the benefit of the entire community. And the inspiration gained from the Lakewood Screw Factory, W78th and Ingenuity building is notable. I was recently at Ingenuity for a music event, it's a great looking space and a desperate sign of life for the area.

 

**I'm absolutely convinced Ingenuity could should have been courted to locate in those Warehouses near Browns Stadium as a cornerstone of much more organic Lakefront Plan. Another missed opportunity, but I digress. 

Does anyone have any idea what is happening at Grdina Park?

 

This is a tiny park northeast of St Clair and E 55th, off E 61st, abutting the East Ohio-Dominion-Enbridge Gas property. (It has a working fountain!)

 

The ball field was removed, and there's a high fence put up around some kind of construction activity. Seems it has been this way for a year?

 

I don't see any subdivision of the City property. Be a shame to lose this little public space.

On 2/13/2024 at 1:58 PM, KJP said:

 

Cleveland AGA Building to fuel start-ups
By Ken Prendergast / February 13, 2024

 

Like many of Cleveland’s historic but vacant commercial buildings, the former American Gas Association (AGA) laboratory in Cleveland’s St. Clair-Superior neighborhood is about to get renovated for a new use. Unlike many other buildings, this one isn’t being converted into apartments. Instead, its new uses are intended to create long-term jobs and new businesses, especially among young women and minorities.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/02/13/cleveland-aga-building-to-fuel-start-ups/

 

 

Looks like the entire property, or maybe just the building was sold?

 

Ah never mind I was confused by a couple title flips since 2022. But anyhow...hope the enterprise succeeds.

 

Hope this works out:

 

https://www.clevescene.com/news/cleveland-entrepeneur-turning-abandoned-trash-filled-st-clair-superior-warehouse-into-a-hub-of-design-45551079

Edited November 30, 2024Nov 30 by MVH

On 11/30/2024 at 9:18 AM, MVH said:

Does anyone have any idea what is happening at Grdina Park?

 

This is a tiny park northeast of St Clair and E 55th, off E 61st, abutting the East Ohio-Dominion-Enbridge Gas property. (It has a working fountain!)

 

The ball field was removed, and there's a high fence put up around some kind of construction activity. Seems it has been this way for a year?

 

I don't see any subdivision of the City property. Be a shame to lose this little public space.

 

NEORSD tunnel project. Guessing it'll be returned to normal after.

10 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

NEORSD tunnel project. Guessing it'll be returned to normal after.

 

 

Ah, makes sense. The blockage of E 55th has been going on for 3-4 years now. I hope we're charging the suburbs enough for their runoff.

Organizers of the St. Patrick's Day parade want the proposed Superior Bikeway to be narrowed so that the north roadway can be wider for their parade.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/12/organizers-say-clevelands-st-patrick-day-parade-being-pushed-out-by-new-bike-lane-on-superior-ave.html

 

The city has already agreed to eliminate trees on the north side of the bikeway.

 

"Parade organizers and city officials have been meeting for close to two years now, resulting in some compromises. Along the parade route, for example, the city has agreed to not plant trees or bushes on the north side of the bike lane — making room for spectators."

"Parade organizers are asking for the landscaped area to be made narrower along the route, with 5 feet on either side of the bike lane instead of 8 feet. That would allow the north side of Superior Avenue to be 30 feet wide, two 12-foot lanes and 6 feet of striped off extra space."  

 

If you ask me, changing the design of a permanent street for a once-a-year-event is not wise.  St. Clair Ave. would be fine.  Organizers don't like it because it because it doesn't end in Public Square, and, from the article, "It doesn’t have as many bars, restaurants or hotels . . . Murphy said trying to get the parade route to make a 90-degree turn from St. Clair Avenue onto Ontario Street would look like a scene from the movie Animal House.”

1 hour ago, Quilliam said:

Organizers of the St. Patrick's Day parade want the proposed Superior Bikeway to be narrowed so that the north roadway can be wider for their parade.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/12/organizers-say-clevelands-st-patrick-day-parade-being-pushed-out-by-new-bike-lane-on-superior-ave.html

 

The city has already agreed to eliminate trees on the north side of the bikeway.

 

"Parade organizers and city officials have been meeting for close to two years now, resulting in some compromises. Along the parade route, for example, the city has agreed to not plant trees or bushes on the north side of the bike lane — making room for spectators."

"Parade organizers are asking for the landscaped area to be made narrower along the route, with 5 feet on either side of the bike lane instead of 8 feet. That would allow the north side of Superior Avenue to be 30 feet wide, two 12-foot lanes and 6 feet of striped off extra space."  

 

If you ask me, changing the design of a permanent street for a once-a-year-event is not wise.  St. Clair Ave. would be fine.  Organizers don't like it because it because it doesn't end in Public Square, and, from the article, "It doesn’t have as many bars, restaurants or hotels . . . Murphy said trying to get the parade route to make a 90-degree turn from St. Clair Avenue onto Ontario Street would look like a scene from the movie Animal House.”

I appreciate Mayor Bibb standing firm but with so much time until groundbreaking I feel Cleveland will fold and water down this project because everyone wants to complain.

Edited December 22, 2024Dec 22 by MyPhoneDead

9 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I appreciate Mayor Bibb standing firm but with so much time until groundbreaking I feel Cleveland will fold and water down this project because everyone wants to complain.

I really don't think Bibb will fold over a parade that occurs one day a year. Some of the organizers logic is flawed too. There's actually more front facing hotels on St. Clair. Bars too. Alot more room for parade watchers as well and gives an opportunity for the mall to actually be used. You could set up an entire beer garden there. 

Just as an FYI; there's been some discussion about this over in the Cleveland-Akron: Bicycle Developments and News thread.

 

Not sure where this discussion best fits, probably here. The discussion there focused more on the changes to the planned bike lanes. 

12 hours ago, Quilliam said:

Organizers of the St. Patrick's Day parade want the proposed Superior Bikeway to be narrowed so that the north roadway can be wider for their parade.

 

How about we require a residency requirement for marching in the parade? That should fit everyone within the Bikeway.

 

Problem solved

3 hours ago, MVH said:

 

How about we require a residency requirement for marching in the parade? That should fit everyone within the Bikeway.

 

Problem solved

So you don't want Cleveland to be the cultural center of the region? Because it sounds like that's what you're asking for. 

15 hours ago, Quilliam said:

 

 

If you ask me, changing the design of a permanent street for a once-a-year-event is not wise.  St. Clair Ave. would be fine.  Organizers don't like it because it because it doesn't end in Public Square, and, from the article, "It doesn’t have as many bars, restaurants or hotels . . . Murphy said trying to get the parade route to make a 90-degree turn from St. Clair Avenue onto Ontario Street would look like a scene from the movie Animal House.”

 

Exactly. We're going to water down the midway for a once a year event? Come on now! In order for this to work the way we want it to it needs to be enticing. That means a center path with an abundance of trees and bushes on either side. It needs a visual draw. Something that will attract people. If not then it will only be a partial success drawing only the hardcore bikers and joggers. 

 

It pisses me off that everytime we come up with a great design it immediately begins to get watered down so that by the time it's finished it's only a pale version and we're left wondering why it didn't work. Hello?? Do it right and people will come. Do it half-as*ed and they won't. Real trees and real landscaping properly nurtured are the draw, otherwise it's just painted concrete.

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

So you don't want Cleveland to be the cultural center of the region? Because it sounds like that's what you're asking for. 

 

I'm asking for a "Cleveland Residents Parade." For all cultures who live in Cleveland. With a "Special Tax Exemption" brigade.

If Cleveland had pro sports teams that won championships more frequently, there would be parades more than once a year.

19 hours ago, Ethan said:

So you don't want Cleveland to be the cultural center of the region? Because it sounds like that's what you're asking for. 

 

Bigger picture, suburbanites and people from outside of the county shouldn't dictate what's best for our citizens 364 days out of the year. Too often the city caves to the interests of the well connected few, which, thankfully, it doesn't sound like they're doing here.

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

Bigger picture, suburbanites and people from outside of the county shouldn't dictate what's best for our citizens 364 days out of the year. Too often the city caves to the interests of the well connected few, which, thankfully, it doesn't sound like they're doing here.

It's almost as if they didn't learn from their blunders during the "urban renewal" era of Cleveland. 

6 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

Bigger picture, suburbanites and people from outside of the county shouldn't dictate what's best for our citizens 364 days out of the year. Too often the city caves to the interests of the well connected few, which, thankfully, it doesn't sound like they're doing here.

For the record, fully agree! @cadmen is spot on, the midway needs to be enticing in order to be effective. Trees and nature are what's going to draw people to use the midway, without the trees there's no benefit to this being in the median, and they might as well have just put a protected bikelane on one side of the street. 

 

Removing trees for the sake of a parade once a year is incredibly silly. 

16 hours ago, Ethan said:

For the record, fully agree! @cadmen is spot on, the midway needs to be enticing in order to be effective. Trees and nature are what's going to draw people to use the midway, without the trees there's no benefit to this being in the median, and they might as well have just put a protected bikelane on one side of the street. 

 

Removing trees for the sake of a parade once a year is incredibly silly. 

I will say. I totally agree but I also know how Cleveland maintained their trees sooooo. Though in this case I would guess DCA would be taking care of most of this midway. 

On 12/21/2024 at 8:49 PM, Quilliam said:

Organizers of the St. Patrick's Day parade want the proposed Superior Bikeway to be narrowed so that the north roadway can be wider for their parade.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/12/organizers-say-clevelands-st-patrick-day-parade-being-pushed-out-by-new-bike-lane-on-superior-ave.html

 

The city has already agreed to eliminate trees on the north side of the bikeway.

 

"Parade organizers and city officials have been meeting for close to two years now, resulting in some compromises. Along the parade route, for example, the city has agreed to not plant trees or bushes on the north side of the bike lane — making room for spectators."

"Parade organizers are asking for the landscaped area to be made narrower along the route, with 5 feet on either side of the bike lane instead of 8 feet. That would allow the north side of Superior Avenue to be 30 feet wide, two 12-foot lanes and 6 feet of striped off extra space."  

 

If you ask me, changing the design of a permanent street for a once-a-year-event is not wise.  St. Clair Ave. would be fine.  Organizers don't like it because it because it doesn't end in Public Square, and, from the article, "It doesn’t have as many bars, restaurants or hotels . . . Murphy said trying to get the parade route to make a 90-degree turn from St. Clair Avenue onto Ontario Street would look like a scene from the movie Animal House.”

Only in Cleveland...but easy fix:

• Move the parade to Carnegie which is wide enough for the parade (potholes may finally get fixed if this suddenly relevant group instead focuses its influence on Carnegie road safety rather than hijacking the Superior Midway); or try
• East 9th Street/Ontario which worked extremely well for the Cavs parade; or better yet and shorter commute
• Trendy Brook Park - parade can start at the new Sheetz and end at the giant parking lot across from the airport.

Quote

Cleveland’s iconic St. Patrick’s Day parade could leave downtown after 2025, according to event organizers.

 

I appreciate how almost everyone in the comments also points out how stupid this is... they could literally move to any other street downtown.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/DE5YpbgPFJH/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

20 hours ago, sonisharri said:

 

I appreciate how almost everyone in the comments also points out how stupid this is... they could literally move to any other street downtown.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/DE5YpbgPFJH/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

Cancelling the parade all together is top tier tantrum.

On 12/21/2024 at 9:52 PM, MyPhoneDead said:

I appreciate Mayor Bibb standing firm but with so much time until groundbreaking I feel Cleveland will fold and water down this project because everyone wants to complain.

 

Scene mildly scoops clecom (again), mentioning something the latter completely ignored (albeit dismissively):

https://www.clevescene.com/news/this-years-cleveland-st-patricks-day-parade-could-be-one-of-the-last-ones-downtown-45718576

 

"Concerns voiced so far have come from the usual suspects -- businesses along the street and centered on questions about how long construction will take and how the project will affect parking."

 

These are people and business with an investment in downtown.   Their money, not just their mouth.   

 

Knowing how the streetscape "improvement" project negatively impacted the momentum the Waterloo Arts District was developing, I'd say they have a point.    

leaving downtown would hurt the parade, imo.  

 

 prospect might work then hang a right on ontario. or Ontario from Carnegie. they could stage at the Ballpark and go down Ontario to the square.

 

e9 too.

 

st Clair could end at the malls.

6 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

leaving downtown would hurt the parade, imo.  

 

 prospect might work then hang a right on ontario. or Ontario from Carnegie. they could stage at the Ballpark and go down Ontario to the square.

 

e9 too.

 

st Clair could end at the malls.

There are literally TONS of alternatives this whole thing is so stupid 

On 12/25/2024 at 9:16 AM, Willo said:

Only in Cleveland...but easy fix:

• Move the parade to Carnegie which is wide enough for the parade (potholes may finally get fixed if this suddenly relevant group instead focuses its influence on Carnegie road safety rather than hijacking the Superior Midway); or try
• East 9th Street/Ontario which worked extremely well for the Cavs parade; or better yet and shorter commute
• Trendy Brook Park - parade can start at the new Sheetz and end at the giant parking lot across from the airport.

 

 

I vote that this vital, mission critical cultural event be held on Lorain Ave through Kamms Corners. Shorter drive for its fans

I still say we have a Cleveland Residents Parade up every major route down into Public Square

 

St Residents Day

Edited January 20Jan 20 by MVH
Brilliant Event Name

Community meeting Sunday, March 2 for Superior Bikeway plans:

 

“City officials will give an overview and be on hand to answer questions following the 9 a.m. mass on March 2 at St. Vitus Social Hall, 6022 Lausche Ave., just east of East 55th Street and south of St. Clair Avenue.”

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/02/communitys-chance-to-hear-the-latest-on-clevelands-superior-midway.html

I forgot to add:

 

”Construction is scheduled to begin late this year on the Superior Midway, stretching from Public Square to East 55th Street.”

2 hours ago, Quilliam said:

Community meeting Sunday, March 2 for Superior Bikeway plans:

 

“City officials will give an overview and be on hand to answer questions following the 9 a.m. mass on March 2 at St. Vitus Social Hall, 6022 Lausche Ave., just east of East 55th Street and south of St. Clair Avenue.”

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/02/communitys-chance-to-hear-the-latest-on-clevelands-superior-midway.html

 

9AM day after Kurentovanje?? Phew that's risky haha

What the Hell is "after mass? 11 AM?

 

That should be a "room full of support." Can't wait!

3 hours ago, Quilliam said:

“City officials will give an overview and be on hand to answer questions following the 9 a.m. mass . . . ."

 

22 minutes ago, MVH said:

What the Hell is "after mass? 11 AM?

Mass is usually about an hour, more or less, so 10am

Not a fan of this midway concept as proposed. Bike lanes should be positioned along the sides of the street so that riders can access buildings/businesses and not have to cross traffic lanes to do so. There is also no need or justification for bus only lanes here, especially if it takes away streetside parallel parking in front of businesses. 

6 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

9AM day after Kurentovanje?? Phew that's risky haha

May want to get there early to get a good seat up front otherwise these guys may each take a few seats and block your view of the presentation:

 

11 hours ago, Rustbelter said:

Not a fan of this midway concept as proposed. Bike lanes should be positioned along the sides of the street so that riders can access buildings/businesses and not have to cross traffic lanes to do so. There is also no need or justification for bus only lanes here, especially if it takes away streetside parallel parking in front of businesses. 

Disagree. The buses that run along Superior are some of the most used in the city. In fact, the bus lanes already exist till East 18th and I think this only keeps them until East 18th. Having a BRT like  system on Superior would be a huge win. 

 

Every business on this street has off street parking. 

Edited February 22Feb 22 by noname