24 minutes ago, noname said:

Disagree. The buses that run along Superior are some of the most used in the city. In fact, the bus lanes already exist till East 18th and I think this only keeps them until East 18th. Having a BRT like  system on Superior would be a huge win. 

 

Every business on this street has off street parking. 

 

Whether they're the most used in the city or not is irrelevant. Cleveland doesn't have the density or traffic logjams to merit this. I never see any notable traffic along this stretch and I travel it frequently. During off hours it feels downright desolate. And this will not be anything like a BRT without signalization priorities (Cleveland's actual BRT barely functions as one). If the bus-only lanes only go to 18th Street then I suppose that's somewhat better.

 

As far as parking for businesses go, maybe some have parking but not all (I know because a frequent many that don't). And having no street parking will deter other businesses from moving into the area. A true high functioning urban neighborhood is not filled with parking lots to serve businesses. I'd rather aspire to fill in empty lots with buildings and not end up with parking lots to serve businesses.

 

Still don't like it, and after poking around I'm having trouble finding similar examples where this concept has even been implemented. Seems like it would be well suited in some already established high density area where businesses can largely be supported by residences walking, which the near east side of Cleveland is not. While I do support some sort of designated bike lanes/traffic calming along Superior I don't think this is the way to go about it.

 

 

Cleveland is accessible to cars on 100% of its public rights of way. And when that doesn't suffice, idiots park, and even drive on sidewalks and bike lanes no matter the design. Making every attempt to accommodate this expectation is the unmistakable sign of a failed, suburban tourist 'city.'

 

Like every other city in the US.

Gee, let's rescue Cleveland by being like every other city in the US rather than redeveloping in a manner that would be attractive to young people looking to dispense with their requirement to buy a car.

 

I like the Midway simply because it communicates a future without car dependency, and also should serve to calm car traffic.

We don't owe suburbanites a fast trip through our city or a fast trip home.

 

Want to drive fast? Head to Chester!

 

One of the greatest failures of Euclid Ave was the capitulation to the car.

Drivers can't be bothered to walk an extra 10 steps from the parking cutout to get their "Subway Always Fresh", blocking the road instead.

The road should have been designed as BRT - Bike - Pedestrian only. The capitulation to the automobile is the reason the BRT doesn't function well.

All bus delays and inefficiencies are directly caused by other vehicular traffic, no matter the route.

 

I repeat my proposal that the car filth businesses along Superior Ave such as the tire shops and Ohio Technical "Race Car " College be offered free land along the Opportunity Corridor where their business will certainly increase. This will clear up opportunities for human centered business, like in real cities. Then we won't need on street parking or parking lots.

None of the car-oriented business owners live in the neighborhood, and few of them hire in the neighborhood. They are only there because Cleveland has made it easy for them to take advantage of the abandonment.

 

It's tragic and ironic that old timers who wax nostalgic for their tight-knit old neighborhoods can't understand the destruction that the advent of the automobile wrought.

Edited February 22Feb 22 by MVH

6 hours ago, noname said:

Disagree. The buses that run along Superior are some of the most used in the city. In fact, the bus lanes already exist till East 18th and I think this only keeps them until East 18th. Having a BRT like  system on Superior would be a huge win. 

 

Every business on this street has off street parking. 

I disagree. This is our opportunity to correct a big mistake we made about 20 years ago. Install light rail not BRT. Yes it’s more expensive, but would have light priority and be much faster.

Ok! Anything involving light rail and l'm in.

1 hour ago, Growth Mindset said:

I disagree. This is our opportunity to correct a big mistake we made about 20 years ago. Install light rail not BRT. Yes it’s more expensive, but would have light priority and be much faster.

Sure, great, in a perfect world. It can’t be done using the current project funding which need to be spent. The federal government is certainly not going to fund anything like that any time soon. 

On 2/21/2025 at 8:41 PM, Rustbelter said:

Not a fan of this midway concept as proposed. Bike lanes should be positioned along the sides of the street so that riders can access buildings/businesses and not have to cross traffic lanes to do so. There is also no need or justification for bus only lanes here, especially if it takes away streetside parallel parking in front of businesses. 

 

Unless you're proposing bike lanes in both directions, on both sides of the street, then bikers coming from the opposite direction would have to cross traffic coming from two directions instead of just one.

 

Adding parallel parking not only condenses bus and car traffic into a single lane, but also creates brand new traffic from cars circling the block looking for a spot. The point of bus and bike lanes is to eliminate the need for parking in the first place.

Edited February 23Feb 23 by sonisharri

17 hours ago, sonisharri said:

Unless you're proposing bike lanes in both directions, on both sides of the street, then bikers coming from the opposite direction would have to cross traffic coming from two directions instead of just one.

 

Adding parallel parking not only condenses bus and car traffic into a single lane, but also creates brand new traffic from cars circling the block looking for a spot. The point of bus and bike lanes is to eliminate the need for parking in the first place.

My first choice would be bike lanes in both directions, with limited parallel parking between the bike lane and travel lanes and a hard curb between the bike lane and the parking lane.  Second would be a two-way bike lane on one side of the street with the curb separating the bike lane from traffic.  Will a two-way bike lane in the middle of the street with traffic on both sides seem unsafe?  I guess we'll be finding out.

21 minutes ago, Foraker said:

My first choice would be bike lanes in both directions, with limited parallel parking between the bike lane and travel lanes and a hard curb between the bike lane and the parking lane.  Second would be a two-way bike lane on one side of the street with the curb separating the bike lane from traffic.  Will a two-way bike lane in the middle of the street with traffic on both sides seem unsafe?  I guess we'll be finding out.

It can be done well. Tel Aviv has a great network of Midways, but what really makes these work is the trees. There needs to be a natural buffer between the bike path and street for this arrangement to make sense. If not I agree with everything you said. 

 

On 10/9/2022 at 4:43 PM, Ethan said:

While I was in Tel Aviv I took some pictures of various different bike midways I found there. I think Cleveland would be wise to take some inspiration from these for the planned Superior Midway.

 

One thing that isn't evident from these pictures is that the share bikes/scooters are restricted to parking in a few locations generally close to these midways. This prevented the scooters from being just strewn all over the city.

 

Other points to draw attention to, dense tree cover (in a much drier climate), occasional shops, frequently separate bike/walk ways, and benches for sitting. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Ethan said:

It can be done well. Tel Aviv has a great network of Midways, but what really makes these work is the trees. There needs to be a natural buffer between the bike path and street for this arrangement to make sense. If not I agree with everything you said. 

 

NYC has something similar as well.

 

This one in Boston lacks trees, but curbs and light poles offer some protection.

 

And here's one in Philly with no protection on either side, and trees in the middle instead of on the sides 🫣 If you look closely, cars have actually managed to turn two bike lanes into three lanes of parking (fittingly, the least usable bikeway I found was on "North American Street")

 

True protection (preferably a natural buffer) is definitely the way to go. I'd hope for something like this design:

Edited February 24Feb 24 by sonisharri

Lets be honest, parking is nowhere close to being a problem on Superior. Even with the parking spots being gone, the off street parking is more than enough to support the current demand. I think we are making a big deal out of nothing with this potential situation. 

 

My big fear is it will become watered down because everyone in the "community" (I use that extremely loosely) wants to have their views implemented. 

13 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Lets be honest, parking is nowhere close to being a problem on Superior. Even with the parking spots being gone, the off street parking is more than enough to support the current demand. I think we are making a big deal out of nothing with this potential situation. 

 

My big fear is it will become watered down because everyone in the "community" (I use that extremely loosely) wants to have their views implemented. 

 

Any threats to automobile dominance will be met with outrage by everybody, whether they use the area or not.

 

I was curious how many on this thread will be using this along with me? I live here.

 

The Tel Aviv layout is exactly what the city should do on Euclid Ave through UC.

I live downtown and I cant wait to start using this!!!

20 minutes ago, MVH said:

 

Any threats to automobile dominance will be met with outrage by everybody, whether they use the area or not.

 

I was curious how many on this thread will be using this along with me? I live here.

 

The Tel Aviv layout is exactly what the city should do on Euclid Ave through UC.

 

I'll be getting a new apartment soon, and I would definitely take this route to Asiatown.

Edited February 24Feb 24 by sonisharri

I wish there was a way to offer support for this project for those who can't go in person to the session. Unless there is some online form of course (which I sure haven't seen). In my mind, it's the NIMBYs with nothing better to do going to these person events and criticizing the project while the YIMBY's who are busy can't go and offer a counter opinion. That's my nihilistic take though lol

 

As someone who works on these kinds of projects I just wanna be able to tell to the developers directly: "please don't value-engineer the aesthetics and functionality of the project for a vocal few who oppose the project because they're gonna lose like two parking spots on Superior or not be able to hold a parade"

BTW, UC has already hired a consultant to redesign Euclid through UC and it's 'shockingly' more of the same. Yeah I know this should go in the UC section

4 hours ago, Geowizical said:

I wish there was a way to offer support for this project for those who can't go in person to the session. Unless there is some online form of course (which I sure haven't seen). In my mind, it's the NIMBYs with nothing better to do going to these person events and criticizing the project while the YIMBY's who are busy can't go and offer a counter opinion. That's my nihilistic take though lol

 

As someone who works on these kinds of projects I just wanna be able to tell to the developers directly: "please don't value-engineer the aesthetics and functionality of the project for a vocal few who oppose the project because they're gonna lose like two parking spots on Superior or not be able to hold a parade"

you can try the City's Midway website but looks dormant since 2024 as it didn't even have this meeting posted (keep turn out low? or they may post it after the fact)

https://www.clevelandmidway.com/contact

 

7 hours ago, sonisharri said:

 

NYC has something similar as well.

 

This one in Boston lacks trees, but curbs and light poles offer some protection.

 

And here's one in Philly with no protection on either side, and trees in the middle instead of on the sides 🫣 If you look closely, cars have actually managed to turn two bike lanes into three lanes of parking (fittingly, the least usable bikeway I found was on "North American Street")

 

True protection (preferably a natural buffer) is definitely the way to go. I'd hope for something like this design:

 

hear, hear! i’ve been yelling at clouds about a superior midway for years. it would totally transform a dystopian stretch of downtown that has a boatload of upside potential. 👍

 

however, it should probably wait until the detroit-superior subway work is completed. 🫠

7 hours ago, sonisharri said:

 

NYC has something similar as well.

 

This one in Boston lacks trees, but curbs and light poles offer some protection.

 

And here's one in Philly with no protection on either side, and trees in the middle instead of on the sides 🫣 If you look closely, cars have actually managed to turn two bike lanes into three lanes of parking (fittingly, the least usable bikeway I found was on "North American Street")

 

True protection (preferably a natural buffer) is definitely the way to go. I'd hope for something like this design:

This just reminded me of the lighting situation. Hopefully they have at least lights on the ground to light the path up. 

So I went to the Superior Ave Midway meeting at St Vitus. I went at the last minute, reluctant to hear more NIMBY whining.

 

Well it turns out these people have a huge back yard. Most of the small crowd seemed to be parishioners from out of the County, though I was informed later that apparently 1 or 2 lived in the St Vitus Village retirement housing. These Village attendees didn't speak or maybe I simply missed it.

 

I don't know who 'called' this weird 'after mass' public meeting in a church beyond the extent of the Midway project, but it indeed turned into a sabotage meeting. led by none other than Trump-o-lyte Lake County Commissioner and (tragic) NOACA "Assistant Secretary" (one of 4)John Plecnik.

 

He seemed to have brought 3-4 people with him to complain about 'slowing down cars,' and other tired complaints. Lake County Guy John Plecnik himself got up at the end and twisted a short speech into a demand that Cleveland hire more cops with the money instead, which always plays well with suburbanites who don't live here.  The presenter, to his credit smiled and informed Plecnik that they don't have any control over hiring police.

 

They tried to shut down comments after that ridiculousness. I spoke up anyhow and expressed my true astonishment that folks from Lake County would be concerned about our street design. The two other actual neighborhood residents, (not in the Village) were the only ones pleased by that, let me tell you. The suburbanites didn't like my free speech rights.

 

After the rest of the presentation, where the presenter felt he had to apologize for any 'woke' terminology, I was confronted by a couple of these suburbanites who assured me that, I don't know? It was 'their' neighborhood? I tried to get to know them, but the conversations digressed into talk about the 'horrible schools' after I asked them when they were moving in.

 

I had a great time.

16 minutes ago, MVH said:

So I went to the Superior Ave Midway meeting at St Vitus. I went at the last minute, reluctant to hear more NIMBY whining.

 

Well it turns out these people have a huge back yard. Most of the small crowd seemed to be parishioners from out of the County, though I was informed later that apparently 1 or 2 lived in the St Vitus Village retirement housing. These Village attendees didn't speak or maybe I simply missed it.

 

I don't know who 'called' this weird 'after mass' public meeting in a church beyond the extent of the Midway project, but it indeed turned into a sabotage meeting. led by none other than Trump-o-lyte Lake County Commissioner and (tragic) NOACA "Assistant Secretary" (one of 4)John Plecnik.

 

He seemed to have brought 3-4 people with him to complain about 'slowing down cars,' and other tired complaints. Lake County Guy John Plecnik himself got up at the end and twisted a short speech into a demand that Cleveland hire more cops with the money instead, which always plays well with suburbanites who don't live here.  The presenter, to his credit smiled and informed Plecnik that they don't have any control over hiring police.

 

They tried to shut down comments after that ridiculousness. I spoke up anyhow and expressed my true astonishment that folks from Lake County would be concerned about our street design. The two other actual neighborhood residents, (not in the Village) were the only ones pleased by that, let me tell you. The suburbanites didn't like my free speech rights.

 

After the rest of the presentation, where the presenter felt he had to apologize for any 'woke' terminology, I was confronted by a couple of these suburbanites who assured me that, I don't know? It was 'their' neighborhood? I tried to get to know them, but the conversations digressed into talk about the 'horrible schools' after I asked them when they were moving in.

 

I had a great time.

Thank you for speaking. 

 

I wish the city was able to limit the public comments to Cleveland residents, or people who own a business on the street in question. I know it would likely just turn into these people finding random residents and handing them a speech to read, but it would at least be an extra hoop for them to jump through. 

 

This project is objectively good for the city and the safety of its residents on a road that in no way needs to be 7 lanes wide anymore, and could be a driver of development on a mostly ignored corridor. But it makes parking, speeding, and U-turns a little bit more difficult for a few people who ignore the fact that 95% of street parking spots on the side streets here are empty 24/7 365. 

Yeah I tried to explain the whole idea of attracting a new community of people who didn't want to spend $15,000 a year on car ownership, but it was like I was from Mars. One even responded "good" when I informed them that Ohio just passed a new budget that included millions for new freeways.

 

Also the rector(?) of the church proceeded to inform me of all the money the church had invested in the neighborhood, and the plans that St Martin De Porres High School have for the school. I said, "like tearing down perfectly good commercial buildings on St Clair for a basketball gym?" And he said it wasn't a basketball gym it was an "athletic center because these kids need something to do." So I said "yeah, a basketball gym. to be the St Ignatius of the East Side," which he also denied. And how they stopped the high school from taking over Kovacic Rec Center, which I agreed was a wonderful thing.

 

Meh, he's a nice guy.

 

It was good to see some passion for the neighborhood which I had assumed was totally gone.

But then again, they seem to envision something other than a 'woke,' dense, walkable, mixed use neighborhood, that modern urbanists would understand.

And I'm sure they're not moving back in anytime soon.

3 hours ago, MVH said:

So I went to the Superior Ave Midway meeting at St Vitus. I went at the last minute, reluctant to hear more NIMBY whining.

 

Well it turns out these people have a huge back yard. Most of the small crowd seemed to be parishioners from out of the County, though I was informed later that apparently 1 or 2 lived in the St Vitus Village retirement housing. These Village attendees didn't speak or maybe I simply missed it.

 

I don't know who 'called' this weird 'after mass' public meeting in a church beyond the extent of the Midway project, but it indeed turned into a sabotage meeting. led by none other than Trump-o-lyte Lake County Commissioner and (tragic) NOACA "Assistant Secretary" (one of 4)John Plecnik.

 

He seemed to have brought 3-4 people with him to complain about 'slowing down cars,' and other tired complaints. Lake County Guy John Plecnik himself got up at the end and twisted a short speech into a demand that Cleveland hire more cops with the money instead, which always plays well with suburbanites who don't live here.  The presenter, to his credit smiled and informed Plecnik that they don't have any control over hiring police.

 

They tried to shut down comments after that ridiculousness. I spoke up anyhow and expressed my true astonishment that folks from Lake County would be concerned about our street design. The two other actual neighborhood residents, (not in the Village) were the only ones pleased by that, let me tell you. The suburbanites didn't like my free speech rights.

 

After the rest of the presentation, where the presenter felt he had to apologize for any 'woke' terminology, I was confronted by a couple of these suburbanites who assured me that, I don't know? It was 'their' neighborhood? I tried to get to know them, but the conversations digressed into talk about the 'horrible schools' after I asked them when they were moving in.

 

I had a great time.

As a Lake County resident, I don’t claim that guy, he’s so corny. Glad you stood up for what you believed, good on you.

Sorry for derailing this thread even more. I have met Plecnik many times over the years, going back to when he was one of my city councilmen (i never voted for him). Nice enough person to talk to, but Every time I see him, all I can think in my head is how much he resembles someone else. It is also interesting that these 2 seem to give off the same vibe.

Johnny P is the one on the left. Lol

 

To bring this comment back to topic, the City of Cleveland has an official website for this project that I want to remind people about

https://www.clevelandmidway.com/

So while I'm on a roll. There have been some interesting property transfers along St Clair.

 

The folks associated with the Southside Bar in Tremont have acquired several buildings on the North side of the strip, and I met a fella who swooped in and bought Azman's shop.

They have met each other, are of similar age, and now they're also talking about buying Zagreb butcher shop.

It's all talk at this stage but they, along with the current owner of Zagreb, want to train a young butcher to continue the trade at the location.

 

You are probably aware that Anna from Boss K9 acquired the entire corner at E 60th for her business.

 

Other more recent businesses include several barbers and salons, along with a cigar shop and a BBQ stand.

 

And if you haven't been to the Wall Drug of Cleveland, you need to check out Sheliga. I hope they can hang on.

I saw a Certificate of Disclosure for Zagreb but the others are interesting too. Lots of sudden activity for that area.

Cleveland Brew Shop moving from Lorain Ave to 4403 St Clair Avenue

39 minutes ago, TDi said:

Cleveland Brew Shop moving from Lorain Ave to 4403 St Clair Avenue

Brownhoist?

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

Brownhoist?

Yup that's it

Midtown Lofts advances with support, concerns

By Ken Prendergast / June 13, 2025

Asiatown was a neighborhood that was on the upswing 20 years ago. There were new restaurants, shopping venues like Asia Plaza, Tyler Village and other commercial developments, multiple new housing offerings such as the Asian Evergreen and Body Block Arcade apartments, plus several longstanding grocers including Dave’s Market, 3301 Payne Ave., had renovated their properties.

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2025/06/13/midtown-lofts-advances-with-support-concerns/

I didn't realize that this project was coming with a little pocket park. I rarely find a park I don't like, but Asiatown could really use one. interestingly, it looks like it's used for square dancing. Hopefully both the park and the apartments move forward.

Here's an article (linked from the above) that has more information about the pop up park. https://www.ideastream.org/environment-energy/2024-06-17/as-cleveland-makes-plans-for-city-parks-some-neighborhoods-are-pushing-for-more-green-space

What's the point of the city trying to reduce or take away parking minimums but then allowing developers exceed minimum requirements?

Isn't that just having laws on the books that mean well but are ignored while the problems persists?

Was this done because foolish people are screeching about something being built as they always do anyways?

Maybe it needs reiterated but I can't understand the backlash against this development when like you said, Asia town is pretty quiet these days.

I will Say I am happy to see the other parking get mostly used up it could have been a hole stuck that way for who knows how long.

Edited 23 hours ago23 hr by FutureboyWonder

26 minutes ago, FutureboyWonder said:

What's the point of the city trying to reduce or take away parking minimums but then allowing developers exceed minimum requirements?

Isn't that just having laws on the books that mean well but are ignored while the problems persists?

Was this done because foolish people are screeching about something being built as they always do anyways?

Maybe it needs reiterated but I can't understand the backlash against this development when like you said, Asia town is pretty quiet these days.

I will Say I am happy to see the other parking get mostly used up it could have been a hole stuck that way for who knows how long.

Probably should go without needing to be said, but a minimum is a minimum- the least that can be done, while a maximum sets an upper limit on what can be done. One can always be above a minimum or below a maximum without running afoul of the rule.

1 hour ago, FutureboyWonder said:

What's the point of the city trying to reduce or take away parking minimums but then allowing developers exceed minimum requirements?

It’s so that the zoning code is not forcing anyone to build parking, and unnecessarily driving up project costs.

However if a developer wishes to, because they make the business decision to do so, then it’s allowed.

3 hours ago, FutureboyWonder said:

What's the point of the city trying to reduce or take away parking minimums but then allowing developers exceed minimum requirements?

Isn't that just having laws on the books that mean well but are ignored while the problems persists?

Was this done because foolish people are screeching about something being built as they always do anyways?

Maybe it needs reiterated but I can't understand the backlash against this development when like you said, Asia town is pretty quiet these days.

I will Say I am happy to see the other parking get mostly used up it could have been a hole stuck that way for who knows how long.

To add on to what others have said, the point is to build as much (or as little) as is deemed necessary for the context of a particular project. I think the new Ohio City hotel is a great example of how it can go both ways—since other properties had an excess of parking, very few new spaces were included in the development.

If parking helps get new housing built in Asiatown, all the better. Since the new residents won't require street parking, maybe that will enable smaller developments to go parking-light in the future.