Electric Vehicles Won't Save Us:

 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2021/06/18/electric-vehicles-wont-save-us/

 

"The challenge we’re faced with is clear: We not only have to transition to cleaner vehicles, but we have to transition toward cleaner built environments, generally. Simply transitioning to electric vehicles does nothing to address the underlying cause for our unsustainable living patterns in which private vehicles are the default mode of moving from place to place. Enough false dichotomies, let’s get to the real challenge."

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/21/electric-vehicle-charging-cost-vs-gas/6110815001/ 

 

electric cars may not be more affordable after all

8 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2021/10/21/electric-vehicle-charging-cost-vs-gas/6110815001/ 

 

electric cars may not be more affordable after all

 

 

I will need to get a new vehicle in the next few years and have been keeping my eye on plug-in electric hybrids (PHEVs). I think these will be the next step for most people as they have a decent electric-only range (you can easily get to/from work or run errands on pure electric), but can also be filled with gas if you want to take a longer trip and don't want to stop for an hour to recharge every couple hundred miles. They also don't have to be plugged in and can work like a regular hybrid vehicle, so they might be appealing to someone who doesn't have an electric charger at home or work.

 

Unfortunately most of the models I'm interested in are made in very small quantities and only sold in certain states. In the rare chance that a Cincinnati-area dealer gets one it is often pre-sold for above MSRP. I'm really hoping that they ramp up production in the next few years, because I'd really like my current vehicle to be the last gas-only vehicle I own.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

I will need to get a new vehicle in the next few years and have been keeping my eye on plug-in electric hybrids (PHEVs). I think these will be the next step for most people as they have a decent electric-only range (you can easily get to/from work or run errands on pure electric), but can also be filled with gas if you want to take a longer trip and don't want to stop for an hour to recharge every couple hundred miles. They also don't have to be plugged in and can work like a regular hybrid vehicle, so they might be appealing to someone who doesn't have an electric charger at home or work.

 

Unfortunately most of the models I'm interested in are made in very small quantities and only sold in certain states. In the rare chance that a Cincinnati-area dealer gets one it is often pre-sold for above MSRP. I'm really hoping that they ramp up production in the next few years, because I'd really like my current vehicle to be the last gas-only vehicle I own.

 

So, I actually just got a PHEV because of the tax credit (it qualified for the full $7,500...under the new bill, in 2022 and beyond, it would "only" qualify for $4,000) and because of what Carvana offered me on my old car (prompted to check that out from another poster here on the forum).  I got ~$4k over my KBB value, which is wild.

 

I was lucky to get mine at MSRP - https://jalopnik.com/looking-for-a-toyota-rav4-prime-itll-cost-you-nearly-1848105508

 

The sales rep at the dealership called me a couple weeks before the vehicle was arriving and said his manager wanted $1k over MSRP and I balked at it, saying we had agreed to a purchase price earlier.  They eventually honored the original price.  Jeff Wyler in Springfield right off the bat wanted $10k over MSRP.

 

I would suggest poking around some of the more rural dealerships.  I found in Columbus that the dealers had wait lists - enough for 2-3 years - on a lot of them.  But once I got outside the city, the dealers had 1-2 coming that were unaccounted for or even one on the lot waiting to be bough.  Most PHEVs through the OEMs are going to ZEV states (New York, California, etc.) but Ohio should have a few here and there.

 

I took a longer trip with a buddy in 2018 or 2019 in his Tesla.  It was a little annoying to have to pre-plan your stops - "ok, we'll stop in Cleveland here and it'll need about 30 minutes to charge and then we'll have to stop in Erie for dinner for about an hour."  It's not as convenient as some people make it out to be.  As we get more chargers and the charging speeds increase (you'll see a lot of "charges from 20% to 80% in 18 minutes" claims or whatever from Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, etc. as they roll out the next generation of their BEVs...so it is getting better) I think it'll become easier and more convenient to rely on a 300+ mile range EV.  As you said though, for now...with a PHEV you don't have to worry about it on longer trips.

 

I get 40-45 miles of electric range now, depending on temps, and that's plenty for daily commuting or driving.

I get ~2.9 miles/kWh, which isn't the most efficient but it's well above what was advertised.

I'm averaging ~54 mpg as a hybrid.  We drove it up to Cleveland and back so it was easy to use it as an EV in stop and go traffic getting onto the freeways and then as a hybrid for the two hour drive in between.  It was advertised to get 40 mpg.

Even using the stated specs...it costs $3.25 or whatever to get 40ish miles on a single gallon.  To charge up (I think it uses about 15 kWh of the battery pack), it costs me ~$.85, and a full battery should also get me 40ish miles.

 

I've seen some early data that suggests PHEVs have a lower cost to own in the long run than ICE, hybrids, and BEVs.  I'm not sure if that's because you're spreading out the strain on the electric battery and the engine or what - i.e., if a hybrid would last you ~150k miles, and a BEV would last year ~200k miles...well, does that mean a PHEV would last you ~350k miles (combining the two)?  I don't know the specifics on that, just guessing.

Edited November 24, 20213 yr by DarkandStormy

1 hour ago, taestell said:

I will need to get a new vehicle in the next few years and have been keeping my eye on plug-in electric hybrids (PHEVs). I think these will be the next step for most people as they have a decent electric-only range (you can easily get to/from work or run errands on pure electric), but can also be filled with gas if you want to take a longer trip and don't want to stop for an hour to recharge every couple hundred miles. They also don't have to be plugged in and can work like a regular hybrid vehicle, so they might be appealing to someone who doesn't have an electric charger at home or work.

 

Unfortunately most of the models I'm interested in are made in very small quantities and only sold in certain states. In the rare chance that a Cincinnati-area dealer gets one it is often pre-sold for above MSRP. I'm really hoping that they ramp up production in the next few years, because I'd really like my current vehicle to be the last gas-only vehicle I own.

I just ordered my first BEV (Mustang Mach-E).  I still have an ICE car if I want to go on a road trip that doesn’t have convenient charging, but the Mach-E has enough range for Cleveland to Dayton, so it’ll cover all but one or two trips a year at least.  Hopefully by the time my ICE needs replacing, there will be enough charging infrastructure that I can get another BEV, but I’m not confident that’ll happen.

 

I’m not sure about other models, but for the Mach-E if you’re willing to wait a few months, you can order one online and typically avoid paying over MSRP, so maybe that’s something to look into for PHEV’s.

Appalachian Ohio is especially underserved with charging infrastructure.

3 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

I took a longer trip with a buddy in 2018 or 2019 in his Tesla.  It was a little annoying to have to pre-plan your stops - "ok, we'll stop in Cleveland here and it'll need about 30 minutes to charge and then we'll have to stop in Erie for dinner for about an hour."  It's not as convenient as some people make it out to be.  As we get more chargers and the charging speeds increase (you'll see a lot of "charges from 20% to 80% in 18 minutes" claims or whatever from Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, etc. as they roll out the next generation of their BEVs...so it is getting better) I think it'll become easier and more convenient to rely on a 300+ mile range EV.  As you said though, for now...with a PHEV you don't have to worry about it on longer trips.

 

Right, aside from the fact that I really don't want to support Elon, the pre-planning required for longer trips seems annoying. It also seems like a waste for me to buy a vehicle with a 300 or 400 mile electric range when most weeks I drive less than 15 miles. It makes more sense for me to get a vehicle like the RAV4 Prime which has around a 40 mile pure electric range but can turn into an ultra-efficient hybrid when I take it on a longer trip. Maybe I will call around and see if any dealerships will add me to the waitlist. I just really hope Toyota ramps up production.

3 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Appalachian Ohio is especially underserved with charging infrastructure.

 

Rural America generally is.  It's bad even if you get out into Licking County, just outside Columbus--relative to its population, it's probably as bad as Appalachia.  When I come down to Newark for court hearings, I charge in Newark--and that had better last me until I can get back out to Cambridge for the Supercharger near the I-70/I-77 interchange.  The charger in Zanesville is completely irrationally priced.  (The market hasn't had time to levelize prices in electric charging the way it has with refilling gas tanks.)

 

Appalachian Ohio is of course even worse in terms of distance (ignoring population), which matters for anyone passing through in their own EV.  There is of course one obvious exception, which any Ohioan who knows the geography of Appalachian Ohio could probably guess with a moment's thought: There are quite a few chargers in Athens, Ohio, for one obvious reason.

 

But I have friends from Watkins Memorial HS that I still keep in touch with that don't live that far outside Newark that have asked me whether it would be worth getting a Tesla, and I had to hedge my bets rather than go into my usual "almost certainly worth it" routine that I do for all my urbanist friends.  The couple I'm particularly thinking of lives just outside Jacksontown, and I basically had to tell them (a) you absolutely need to pay for an additional 50A outlet in your garage, and (b) keep the car charged even when you're not 100% sure it's necessary because the inevitable energy leak in cold weather could be really material for your ability to get home.

9 hours ago, taestell said:

I will need to get a new vehicle in the next few years and have been keeping my eye on plug-in electric hybrids (PHEVs). I think these will be the next step for most people as they have a decent electric-only range (you can easily get to/from work or run errands on pure electric), but can also be filled with gas if you want to take a longer trip and don't want to stop for an hour to recharge every couple hundred miles. They also don't have to be plugged in and can work like a regular hybrid vehicle, so they might be appealing to someone who doesn't have an electric charger at home or work.

 

Unfortunately most of the models I'm interested in are made in very small quantities and only sold in certain states. In the rare chance that a Cincinnati-area dealer gets one it is often pre-sold for above MSRP. I'm really hoping that they ramp up production in the next few years, because I'd really like my current vehicle to be the last gas-only vehicle I own.

That's frustrating to hear, but sadly not surprising. My partner wants, and actually really needs, a new car. I want to steer her towards a PHEV so her commute will be all electric but I wasn't finding anything during my initial searches. I drive a hybrid, a 2018 Kia Niro, and it's fantastic, so I'll probably have to talk her into something like that.

On 11/24/2021 at 2:34 PM, taestell said:

Right, aside from the fact that I really don't want to support Elon, the pre-planning required for longer trips seems annoying. It also seems like a waste for me to buy a vehicle with a 300 or 400 mile electric range when most weeks I drive less than 15 miles. It makes more sense for me to get a vehicle like the RAV4 Prime which has around a 40 mile pure electric range but can turn into an ultra-efficient hybrid when I take it on a longer trip. Maybe I will call around and see if any dealerships will add me to the waitlist. I just really hope Toyota ramps up production.

 

https://evadoption.com/ev-models/available-phevs/#phevs-currently-available-in-the-us/?view_23_sort=field_37|asc

 

There are currently 8 PHEVs for sale in the U.S. with an MSRP under $40k.  Plenty of higher-end choices from BMW, Volvo, and Audi.

 

I will tell you that I had better luck calling dealerships.  A vehicle shows up on a dealer website once it's built and on it's way, but by then it may be claimed by someone with a deposit down.  It's hard to tell from looking at websites right now.  If you wanted to test drive (for size, handling, etc.) a Rav4, you could always test drive a regular one or a plain hybrid, just to get a sense for it.  Those are more common on the lots.  And I know New York actually has a bunch of Primes (one of the ZEV states getting them) if you wanted to make the ~5-6 hour journey just across the PA border.  Inventory might be low now as they're due to switch over to '22 model years + chip shortage.

 

Taylorsville, IN

Beechmont

Glockner in Portsmouth

 

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Edited November 29, 20213 yr by DarkandStormy

On 11/24/2021 at 7:08 PM, Dev said:

That's frustrating to hear, but sadly not surprising. My partner wants, and actually really needs, a new car. I want to steer her towards a PHEV so her commute will be all electric but I wasn't finding anything during my initial searches. I drive a hybrid, a 2018 Kia Niro, and it's fantastic, so I'll probably have to talk her into something like that.

 

https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-plug-in-hybrid

 

They make a PHEV version of the Niro as well.

17 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

https://www.kia.com/us/en/niro-plug-in-hybrid

 

They make a PHEV version of the Niro as well.

Oh trust me, I know. I didn't have access to an exterior outlet at the time, otherwise I would have gone after a PHEV back then. It seems almost impossible to get one now.

2 hours ago, Dev said:

Oh trust me, I know. I didn't have access to an exterior outlet at the time, otherwise I would have gone after a PHEV back then. It seems almost impossible to get one now.

 

They have an "inventory" button you can check.  Looks like one in the Dayton area and one "coming" near Lancaster.  Not a lot of choices right now, chip shortage and everything.

On 11/24/2021 at 2:34 PM, taestell said:

Right, aside from the fact that I really don't want to support Elon, the pre-planning required for longer trips seems annoying. It also seems like a waste for me to buy a vehicle with a 300 or 400 mile electric range when most weeks I drive less than 15 miles. It makes more sense for me to get a vehicle like the RAV4 Prime which has around a 40 mile pure electric range but can turn into an ultra-efficient hybrid when I take it on a longer trip. Maybe I will call around and see if any dealerships will add me to the waitlist. I just really hope Toyota ramps up production.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OERWO-QuKbKKxPrNXRrR79BFnvWBsoH1-MpB-vicI3w/edit#gid=1084234492

 

Someone with way too much time on their hands made a dealer allocation spreadsheet for the entire country.

So a while ago, discussion about Workhorse and Lordstown Motors was actually in the Personal Finance thread because some forumers (including myself) were invested in either Workhorse (WKHS), Lordstown (RIDE), or both.  At that time, the two companies were actually fairly strongly connected; Workhorse had at least a 9% stake in Lordstown; Lordstown Motors was also run by Workhorse's founder and former CEO.

 

Workhorse has since sold at least most, maybe all, of its stake in Lordstown.  So I considered shifting the discussion about Workhorse to the Cincinnati general business thread and the discussion about Lordstown to the Youngstown thread, but they're both still in the electric car sector and I think discussion about both of them will bleed into discussions of electric vehicles (albeit trucks, not cars) generally, so I'm moving the discussion about both Workhorse and Lordstown Motors here.

 

Back in November, Lordstown also entered into an asset purchase agreement with Taiwan-based Hon Hai Technology Group (better known as Foxconn).  Considering Foxconn's size and Lordstown Motor's struggles, even if this isn't structured as a complete takeover, Foxconn will be calling the shots, and they're the ones that will own the main assembly lines of the Lordstown plant; Lordstown will keep only the hub motor assembly line and battery pack/module assembly line.

 

Over in the Personal Finance thread, we watched and discussed as Workhorse's stock tanked after they lost the bid for the new USPS mail truck fleet to Wisconsin-based Oshkosh Defense.  So finally getting to the point of what prompted me to write this post in the first place: That contract may be back on the table, because the vehicles Oshkosh has put together for the USPS so far are apparently terrible:

 

New USPS Mail Trucks Get Dogshit Gas Mileage

The Postal Service's deal with Oshkosh Defense is for a truck with worse average MPG than a Bugatti Chiron

 

https://jalopnik.com/new-usps-mail-trucks-get-dogshit-gas-mileage-1848481048

 

The U.S. Postal Service’s $6 billion deal with Oshkosh Defense for the new NGDV mail truck has officially been called into serious question by the Environmental Protection Agency. A letter sent earlier this week complains about the terrible fuel economy of the trucks and strongly urges the Postal Service to “not proceed to a decision.” ...

 

At this point you’re probably saying to yourself, “It’s a brand new truck. How bad could the mileage be?” Well, dear reader, it’s dogshit bad.

 

The EPA claims the Oshkosh replacement vehicle – which will account for one-third of the government’s entire vehicle flee – only offers a “0.4-mile-per-gallon fuel economy improvement over the agency’s current trucks.” You need to keep in mind that the current fleet is 30 years old. This shit was developed during the Reagan administration, and the new option is barely better. The letter goes on to complain that only 10 percent of the new fleet would be fully electric.

 

===================================================

 

At this point, the USPS has not actually acted on the EPA's recommendation, but the EPA will presumably have more political clout in intrabureaucracy struggles in the Biden administration than it would have in the Trump administration.  Also, even if Oshkosh loses the contract, it doesn't mean Workhorse gets it by default--just that it's back in the running.  It's an open question whether Foxconn could also make a bid, or even be interested; they may be solely focused on getting the Endurance to market, and as a foreign manufacturer, they might be at a disadvantage for a US federal government contract anyway.

Foxconn/Lordstown isn't union. So I'm not sure how that affects things under this administration.

 

"Features"

On 2/6/2022 at 8:49 AM, Gramarye said:

So a while ago, discussion about Workhorse and Lordstown Motors was actually in the Personal Finance thread because some forumers (including myself) were invested in either Workhorse (WKHS), Lordstown (RIDE), or both.  At that time, the two companies were actually fairly strongly connected; Workhorse had at least a 9% stake in Lordstown; Lordstown Motors was also run by Workhorse's founder and former CEO.

 

Workhorse has since sold at least most, maybe all, of its stake in Lordstown.  So I considered shifting the discussion about Workhorse to the Cincinnati general business thread and the discussion about Lordstown to the Youngstown thread, but they're both still in the electric car sector and I think discussion about both of them will bleed into discussions of electric vehicles (albeit trucks, not cars) generally, so I'm moving the discussion about both Workhorse and Lordstown Motors here.

 

Back in November, Lordstown also entered into an asset purchase agreement with Taiwan-based Hon Hai Technology Group (better known as Foxconn).  Considering Foxconn's size and Lordstown Motor's struggles, even if this isn't structured as a complete takeover, Foxconn will be calling the shots, and they're the ones that will own the main assembly lines of the Lordstown plant; Lordstown will keep only the hub motor assembly line and battery pack/module assembly line.

 

Over in the Personal Finance thread, we watched and discussed as Workhorse's stock tanked after they lost the bid for the new USPS mail truck fleet to Wisconsin-based Oshkosh Defense.  So finally getting to the point of what prompted me to write this post in the first place: That contract may be back on the table, because the vehicles Oshkosh has put together for the USPS so far are apparently terrible:

 

New USPS Mail Trucks Get Dogsh*t Gas Mileage

The Postal Service's deal with Oshkosh Defense is for a truck with worse average MPG than a Bugatti Chiron

 

https://jalopnik.com/new-usps-mail-trucks-get-dogsh*t-gas-mileage-1848481048

 

The U.S. Postal Service’s $6 billion deal with Oshkosh Defense for the new NGDV mail truck has officially been called into serious question by the Environmental Protection Agency. A letter sent earlier this week complains about the terrible fuel economy of the trucks and strongly urges the Postal Service to “not proceed to a decision.” ...

 

At this point you’re probably saying to yourself, “It’s a brand new truck. How bad could the mileage be?” Well, dear reader, it’s dogsh*t bad.

 

The EPA claims the Oshkosh replacement vehicle – which will account for one-third of the government’s entire vehicle flee – only offers a “0.4-mile-per-gallon fuel economy improvement over the agency’s current trucks.” You need to keep in mind that the current fleet is 30 years old. This sh*t was developed during the Reagan administration, and the new option is barely better. The letter goes on to complain that only 10 percent of the new fleet would be fully electric.

 

===================================================

 

At this point, the USPS has not actually acted on the EPA's recommendation, but the EPA will presumably have more political clout in intrabureaucracy struggles in the Biden administration than it would have in the Trump administration.  Also, even if Oshkosh loses the contract, it doesn't mean Workhorse gets it by default--just that it's back in the running.  It's an open question whether Foxconn could also make a bid, or even be interested; they may be solely focused on getting the Endurance to market, and as a foreign manufacturer, they might be at a disadvantage for a US federal government contract anyway.

 

Biden (or the Biden Administration) released a "strongly worded" letter condemning the USPS contract with Oskhosh which sort of begs the question...why doesn't Biden just fire Dejoy and appoint someone who will enact the EPA recommendation as Postmaster General?  It's very bizarre.  To be fair, I don't know exactly about the Postmaster General process and I seem to remember there being a board or something that has to approve it.  So it might not be as easy as "nominate Kanye West" and get him approved by a majority of the Senate.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/best-ev-electric-car/

 

I think some Tesla fans aren't happy with this list.

^ I really think, not hope, but think, that Tesla’s gonna have a hell of a hard fall as a brand. They’re well-positioned for the future as a tech supplier, but as a car company, they may look very different in a few years. The legacy makers may have had to catch up, but they’re not gonna let go without a fight. Also, every single car on that list, OK maybe not the Rivian, is better-looking than any Tesla. 

9 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

The legacy makers may have had to catch up

On legacy automakers 'catching up'

 

https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

 

I don't think Tesla gets enough credit for generally not enforcing patents their technology as doing so is anathema to their central mission of accelerating the development and adoption of electric cars. Ironically, legacy automakers catching up is actually proof of Telsa's success in their stated mission. 

Edited February 7, 20223 yr by Ethan

Honestly, there's probably only a few things keeping Teslas off that list.

 

1) Single failure point touchscreen that has to be used to do almost anything.

 

2) The yoke. Anybody who looked into a Knight Rider replica has been told how terrible yokes are. Cars have steering wheels for a reason.

 

3) Build quality issues.

 

All three of these things are easily solvable.

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

The yoke. Anybody who looked into a Knight Rider replica has been told how terrible yokes are. Cars have steering wheels for a reason.

 

Tesla is starting to design cars as if they're autonomous and don't need to be driven by a human. The thing is — for the foreseeable future, they're going to mostly be driven by humans. And humans would rather have a traditional steering wheel and gear shifter than a yoke and a touchscreen.

4 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ I really think, not hope, but think, that Tesla’s gonna have a hell of a hard fall as a brand. They’re well-positioned for the future as a tech supplier, but as a car company, they may look very different in a few years. The legacy makers may have had to catch up, but they’re not gonna let go without a fight. Also, every single car on that list, OK maybe not the Rivian, is better-looking than any Tesla. 

 

I don't know about as a brand, but as a company ... well, let's just say that after holding for 7-8 years, I finally sold the last of my TSLA stock last month.

 

That said, I think some of these other EV companies will have trouble catching up in volume to Tesla for a while yet, even if they make good products (and it's great to see that they are).  Tesla moved quickly, simply because they had the luxury of doing so while no one else was taking the space seriously, to lock up large long-term supplies of lithium and other critical bulk materials.

 

3 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Honestly, there's probably only a few things keeping Teslas off that list.

 

1) Single failure point touchscreen that has to be used to do almost anything.

 

2) The yoke. Anybody who looked into a Knight Rider replica has been told how terrible yokes are. Cars have steering wheels for a reason.

 

3) Build quality issues.

 

All three of these things are easily solvable.

 

I completely agree about the yoke.  I don't know how easily solvable the touchscreen issue is, though I have begun to have some frustrations with the UI and part of that is dependent on the touchscreen (it takes far too long and too much distraction from the road to activate windshield wipers with the current UI, for example).

 

Some of the recent engineering and design decisions are more than just execution issues, though.  They are strategic decisions about what features should be expanded or limited (e.g., deliberate reductions in autopilot functionality because of a few bad apples ruining the bunch--liability issues or concerns that caused them to add additional nanny-computer functions, for example).  It was my frustration with these OTA updates to the UI and autopilot that really convinced me to sell the stock, honestly.  I don't know when this kind of thing is going to catch up with them, but unless other users' reactions to the changes are wildly different from my own (always a possibility, everyone here knows I have little problem living as an outlier, but so it goes), this will catch up with them eventually.

It wouldn't be that hard to get some of the most-used functions off the touchscreen with today's CAN-BUS wiring harnesses that are a lot more like CAT-5 than the thick snakes of the past. The Body Control Module (or whatever a Tesla) has can simply be reprogrammed to send and accept those signals from somewhere else. Obviously a redesign of the steering column is required to implement that on future models but even retrofits would be possible. Wait 'til you see what the aftermarket and enthusiasts can do with this stuff in 15-20 years -- maybe less since the main Tesla design is 10 years old.

21 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Honestly, there's probably only a few things keeping Teslas off that list.

 

1) Single failure point touchscreen that has to be used to do almost anything.

 

2) The yoke. Anybody who looked into a Knight Rider replica has been told how terrible yokes are. Cars have steering wheels for a reason.

 

3) Build quality issues.

 

All three of these things are easily solvable.

 

Tesla doesn't care about quality.  To "solve" the chip crisis over the last year or so they have:

-not used auto grade chips (this could be a problem in the long run - chips used in automobiles go through more rigorous testing than chips used for other things)

-cut out lumbar support

-recent report last night that they are shipping cars without a second steering rack (needed for full autonomy) in tens of thousands of cars made in their China factory (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/tesla-cut-a-steering-component-to-deal-with-chip-shortage.html)

 

Tesla consistently ranks in the bottom two in quality by JD Power and Consumer Reports.  There's plenty of evidence now that they cut corners in order to hit their delivery goals.

 

If you care about accelerating the fastest you can in a straight line or value the supercharger network or your car farting (or you're buying Elon's lies about robotaxis), buy a Tesla.  If you just want a solidly built, quality EV with nearly the same range as a Tesla, you have a much wider range of options.  Not that all other EVs are perfect by any means, but they seem to put the work in to make their vehicles reliable.

Oh no, non-auto grade chips are not good. Most "tech" is made to be used indoors and/or discarded after a few years. There is a big difference in auto chips and it's why the Intel's CEO's Twitter offer to "fix" Ford's chip problems landed with a thud. Intel doesn't make auto-grade chips currently.

8 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Oh no, non-auto grade chips are not good. Most "tech" is made to be used indoors and/or discarded after a few years. There is a big difference in auto chips and it's why the Intel's CEO's Twitter offer to "fix" Ford's chip problems landed with a thud. Intel doesn't make auto-grade chips currently.

 

This is interesting to me because I kind of assumed that one reason Intel chose Ohio for their new manufacturing plant was to be closer to automotive manufacturing.  Not that Ohio lacks in the data center game where Intel's x86 chips still apparently rule the roost, either, but lots of places have those.

Well, they could get into auto-grade chips with a new facility.

31 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Oh no, non-auto grade chips are not good. Most "tech" is made to be used indoors and/or discarded after a few years. There is a big difference in auto chips and it's why the Intel's CEO's Twitter offer to "fix" Ford's chip problems landed with a thud. Intel doesn't make auto-grade chips currently.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-shortage-software-rewriting-ev-processor

 

From last July:

Quote

Tesla is weathering the global chip shortage by rewriting its vehicle software to support alternative chips, CEO Elon Musk said during an earnings call Monday. The shortage has upended the auto industry at a time of historic demand for new cars, leading to factory shutdowns, longer wait times, and higher prices.

 

“We were able to substitute alternative chips, and then write the firmware in a matter of weeks,” Musk said. “It’s not just a matter of swapping out a chip; you also have to rewrite the software.”

 

 

This, from last month, is bizarre.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's because they're using poorer quality chips for seat adjustment or something like that.

5 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-shortage-software-rewriting-ev-processor

 

From last July:

 

 

This, from last month, is bizarre.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's because they're using poorer quality chips for seat adjustment or something like that.

I can’t figure out how a chip would impact that. It seems more related to the capability of the electric motor for the seat having continuous use. A chip either has a good connection or it doesn’t - reducing motor usage wouldn’t be likely to impact this. Over time, a bad chip would manifest as either outright not working, or having intermittent periods of not working. Think about the impact of a loose connection - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Bad chip could have the same experience. 

https://insideevs.com/news/567629/fisker-pear-reservations-open/
 

Reservations opening today for the 2024 Fisker PEAR, with a $29,900 starting price before incentives.  It’s planned to be produced by Foxconn in Lordstown, starting at 250k vehicles per year.

 

Fisker hasn’t delivered any cars of any kind yet so take all of that with a grain of salt, but it at least seems to be trying to make EV’s affordable, which is appreciated, even if it’s probably not ideal for the company’s profitability.

30 minutes ago, acd said:

https://insideevs.com/news/567629/fisker-pear-reservations-open/
 

Reservations opening today for the 2024 Fisker PEAR, with a $29,900 starting price before incentives.  It’s planned to be produced by Foxconn in Lordstown, starting at 250k vehicles per year.

 

Fisker hasn’t delivered any cars of any kind yet so take all of that with a grain of salt, but it at least seems to be trying to make EV’s affordable, which is appreciated, even if it’s probably not ideal for the company’s profitability.

 

The original Fisker made some nice cars before their battery manufacturer went bankrupt.   Their assets were bought out by a Chinese company, so this is the same people but different resources.

On 11/24/2021 at 2:34 PM, taestell said:

It makes more sense for me to get a vehicle like the RAV4 Prime which has around a 40 mile pure electric range but can turn into an ultra-efficient hybrid when I take it on a longer trip. Maybe I will call around and see if any dealerships will add me to the waitlist. I just really hope Toyota ramps up production.

 

Toyota's site still says: "Availability of RAV4 Prime is currently extremely limited in your area"

 

However, there is a little bit of inventory trickling into local Toyota dealerships. A few used ones are also available at nearby Carmax locations — for a mere $10k over the price of a new one.

Gas or electric, we're in a time when people really need to take care of their cars (or, more relevant to UO's interests, explore ways to get around without car ownership at all).  New and used cars alike are getting hard to obtain, and I think even spare parts for existing cars are subject to the ongoing supply chain maladies.

 

I'd never bought a new car in my life before I bought my EV in 2018.  There were a few years there was I sometimes shrugged as gas was around $1.50, and meanwhile I had to watch that huge car payment leave my bank account every month.  Now, in the current environment, the benefits of minimal moving parts and running on a fuel source that is much more independent of the global supply chain is really paying off.  But I'm also hoping the fact that I bought new cuts down on maintenance to come for a while yet, because I'm past the end of my bumper-to-bumper warranty.

I ran across this report about fires in electric cars.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/fire-departments-prepare-for-electric-car-battery-fires-can-take-10-times-more-water-to-put-out-than-gas-engines

 

The problem is lithium-ion batteries overheat and once they start burning they produce toxic gases that keep the fire going.  Usually it's one cell of the battery that overheats, and then starts burning, and the heat from that cell ignites the adjacent cells, rinse and repeat.... 

 

Sounds like fire departments are just planning to either (1) watch the car burn, or (2) drown it in water to try to cool down the not-yet-burning cells until the burning cell is put out.  This suggests that we need to watch our battery temperature very closely (don't let it get too hot in the first place), develop new battery technology that doesn't have the same problems as lithium ion batteries, or add some fire extinguishing material to all lithium ion batteries in cars so that they self-extinguish.

On 2/8/2022 at 12:31 PM, DarkandStormy said:

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22595060/tesla-chip-shortage-software-rewriting-ev-processor

 

From last July:

 

 

This, from last month, is bizarre.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's because they're using poorer quality chips for seat adjustment or something like that.

 

Not saying this is related (correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation)...https://www.autoevolution.com/news/new-tesla-fires-keep-popping-up-they-are-now-six-in-a-matter-of-days-189531.html

 

Quote

New Tesla Fires Keep Popping Up: They Are Now Six in a Matter of Days

 

What makes them newsworthy is that they are happening at a faster pace than they usually did. From June 2021 until very recently, I personally covered seven Tesla fires. Now we already have six more just in May, which is leading to multiple theories about why they are happening so often these days. We’ll get there after we talk about the new blazes

 

There may have been another last week.  I think someone went down the rabbit hole and found that most of the vehicles that caught fire in the last couple weeks were '21 or '22 builds.

Edited June 1, 20223 yr by DarkandStormy

On 11/24/2021 at 9:13 AM, taestell said:

I will need to get a new vehicle in the next few years and have been keeping my eye on plug-in electric hybrids (PHEVs). I think these will be the next step for most people as they have a decent electric-only range (you can easily get to/from work or run errands on pure electric), but can also be filled with gas if you want to take a longer trip and don't want to stop for an hour to recharge every couple hundred miles. They also don't have to be plugged in and can work like a regular hybrid vehicle, so they might be appealing to someone who doesn't have an electric charger at home or work.

 

I've driven almost exclusively on electric around town, getting almost 3 miles/kWh (not the most efficient out there).  It's also been great on road trips - get 45 mpg+ in the summer on the highway and can fill up in 3-4 minutes, depending on wait times (though it does hurt to plop down $40+ to go 500+ miles as a hybrid lol).

 

My rough math:

-call it 5,400 miles

-about 83 gallons of gas (which tracks with the tank size and # of times I've filled up)

-I could track the receipts, but it's around $250 spent on gas

-we just did a long road trip, so it's around 3,500 miles as a hybrid and 1,900 as electric (it was about a 1,700/1,700 split before we left)

-I've used around 650 kWh

-of those ~650 kWh, I've gotten about 250 of them for free

-400 kWh at home, at our current rate of $0.052/kWh (EDIT - $0.16-$.17 because I forgot to factor in both the delivery and supply charge), that's about $65 for EV driving (even if I didn't get the free kWh, it'd be about $104), not counting energy loss

-so I've spent in the ballpark of $315 to go 5,400 miles, or roughly 17 miles per dollar.  At 40 mpg (highly efficient sedans or somewhat inefficient hybrid SUVs) and $4.70/gallon, it's closer to 8.5 miles per dollar and obviously gets worse as you decrease your fuel efficiency (and/or increase the $/gallon).

Edited June 2, 20223 yr by DarkandStormy

Headwinds for electric cars?

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-22/mr-lithiumalr-warns-there-s-not-enough-battery-metal-to-go-around

 

Also, lithium prices are up 500%:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-05-25/lithium-the-hunt-for-the-wonder-metal-fueling-evs

 

And there are other considerations besides supply:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01735-z

Edited June 2, 20223 yr by gildone
typo

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/06/08/north-carolina-legislature-house-bill-1049-free-ev-charging/

 

Quote

North Carolina appears to be at war with itself over EV charging in the state. As spotted by Clean Technica, Representative Keith Kidwell and three other sponsors introduced House Bill 1049, called "Equitable Free Vehicle Fuel Stations." That's the short title, the short summary being that Kidwell and company believe everyone needs to be aware of "free" EV charging or receive the same benefits, no matter what kind of car they drive. The first section states, "Any person who is engaged in a business where electric vehicle charging stations are provided for use by the public at no charge shall ensure that each customer of the business, without regard to whether the customer uses the charging stations, is informed of, on the receipt for purchases, the percentage of the amount of the customer’s total purchase price that is a result of the business providing electric vehicle charging stations at no charge."

 

"Tesla is a Fraud"

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tesla-is-a-fraud-with-ed-niedermeyer/id1437755068?i=1000567971500

 

Book:

Ludicrous: The Unvarnished Story of Tesla Motors:

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/45722402-ludicrous

I clicked on a tweet a from a local TV news account in another city about some brownouts occurring due to high demand on the power grid from unusually high temperatures. The replies were full of people saying "and BRANDON wants us to switch to ELECTRIC CARS??!!?!" I was really hoping that electric cars were not going to become a partisan issue but apparently it's happening.

1 minute ago, taestell said:

I clicked on a tweet a from a local TV news account in another city about some brownouts occurring due to high demand on the power grid from unusually high temperatures. The replies were full of people saying "and BRANDON wants us to switch to ELECTRIC CARS??!!?!" I was really hoping that electric cars were not going to become a partisan issue but apparently it's happening.

Yep.  I didn't realize this until a couple of weeks ago, but of course not surprised.  I was speaking to a friend from law school for the first time in a while who is to the right of Hitler.   After all these years we have learned to avoid political discussions for the most part but then out of the blue she went on a rant about electric cars which seemed to be well scripted.  It doesn't matter what it is...if it is "Change" the far right (really the right as a whole) is against "whatever"  just as a matter of principal.  Change scares the hell out of them.

 

9 minutes ago, taestell said:

I clicked on a tweet a from a local TV news account in another city about some brownouts occurring due to high demand on the power grid from unusually high temperatures. The replies were full of people saying "and BRANDON wants us to switch to ELECTRIC CARS??!!?!" I was really hoping that electric cars were not going to become a partisan issue but apparently it's happening.

 

Some of my MAGA lite friends are at an awkward crossroads between continuing to fellate Elon for everything he does and calling anyone driving an electric car a soy boy 

49 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

she went on a rant about electric cars which seemed to be well scripted

 

A friend said that his mom has suddenly started posting a bunch of anti-electric car stuff on the face book, clearly the same talking points that right wing media are trying to push. One of her recent posts was "electric cars don't pay gas tax so if everyone drives electric cars, how will we pay for roads." I was debating whether to reply to her with "actually, the majority of the cost of building and maintaining highways and roads is not covered by federal gas tax, which has been set at a fixed rate of 18.4 cents per gallon since 1993 and has not been adjusted for inflation in the last three decades" or "Brandon's gunna put GPS trackers in electric vehicles and charge a fee per mile driven."

Electric vehicles have gotten the MAGA chuds in a tizzy. I have seen some TikToks replying to right wingers who think that an electric truck can't tow. It's the same attitude they had when Prius came out. 

Thomas Massie (congressmen from KY if you aren't aware of one of the worst congressmen in the country) is as libertarian as they come and has youtube videos of deconstructing a wrecked Tesla to power his house and was a big electric-car-as-energy-independence guy. He might need to go back and delete all his Tesla related videos, but then again maybe he won't care because he isn't really MAGA and Trump himself once called Massie a "third rate Grandstander". 

How sustainable is lithium and cobalt mining? What do we do with all the batteries when they no longer hold a proper charge? Hydrogen is said to provide more power and is the most abundant element. Just food for thought.