They probably sold a few sometime last year to people who really knew what they were doing. If they parked them and don't drive them the few $35K ones will be worth a lot of money in 50 years.

^I occasionally see the model 3's with the super-cheap plastic wheel covers.  They seem excessively cheap, like the worst-looking wheel covers at Autozone, in order to "force" people to do the multi-thousand dollar upgrade.  

 

In related news, an old roommate of mine just bought a brand-new stick shift Chevy Spark for $12,500.  So you could buy three brand-new Chevy Sparks for the price of the very cheapest Model 3.  

27 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

Tesla announced on 2/28/2019 that they were introducing the $35k "Standard" and $37k "Standard Range Plus" models. However, if you try to configure a Model 3 on Tesla's site, the cheapest option available is the Standard Range Plus for $37,990. Did the cheaper $35k model get dropped or delayed again?

 

The $35k model did get dropped.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/16/21569524/tesla-model-3-35000-price-stop-selling

 

Ah, $35k Model 3, in your fleeting life we barely knew ye.

 

The silver lining is that many features that used to be optional are now standard.  But it's true that you no longer have the option to order the car without them, and the entry level price now reflects that.  IIRC, the update strategy for the car is premised on certain features existing in all models.

 

  

2 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

In related news, an old roommate of mine just bought a brand-new stick shift Chevy Spark for $12,500.  So you could buy three brand-new Chevy Sparks for the price of the very cheapest Model 3.  

 

Yes, but then you would own three Chevy Sparks instead of a Model 3.  How many Chevy Sparks can you drive at once?  That's right, zero.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

Tesla announced on 2/28/2019 that they were introducing the $35k "Standard" and $37k "Standard Range Plus" models. However, if you try to configure a Model 3 on Tesla's site, the cheapest option available is the Standard Range Plus for $37,990. Did the cheaper $35k model get dropped or delayed again?

 

Fwiw, because of the federal tax credit, you can get a VW ID.4 (electric cross-over) for ~$33k, depending on which trim you want.  It beats any Tesla on price.

 

EDIT - https://www.vw.com/pre-order/  They're also throwing in three years of free charging with Electrify America.

Edited December 28, 20204 yr by DarkandStormy

I’m interested to see what this company can do. $51K for a 4WD truck with a 7,500 lb towing capacity isn’t a bad price. I’ll be in the market for a new pickup in a couple years and I might have to look at a Lordstown Endurance https://lordstownmotors.com/

5 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

In related news, an old roommate of mine just bought a brand-new stick shift Chevy Spark for $12,500.  So you could buy three brand-new Chevy Sparks for the price of the very cheapest Model 3.  

You almost never hear of standard transmissions anymore. Especially with electric cars. I wonder if there may be a desire for them to comeback at sometime in the future. Also, with the electric cars, is it truly a standard transmission or is it more of a simulated shifting experience

31 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

You almost never hear of standard transmissions anymore. Especially with electric cars. I wonder if there may be a desire for them to comeback at sometime in the future. Also, with the electric cars, is it truly a standard transmission or is it more of a simulated shifting experience

 

It's neither.  There is essentially no analogue to shifting gears in an EV.  Maybe the closest theoretical parallel I could make would be a CVT but it's closer to having just a single, insanely powerful first gear.

From my understanding, EVs do not have transmissions at all. 

32 minutes ago, freefourur said:

From my understanding, EVs do not have transmissions at all. 

 

This is correct.  I'm just reaching to try to make any kind of parallel that would be more familiar to someone whose only experience is in ICEland.  And it's still not a good parallel.

 

The drivetrain of an electric car is infinitely more simple than an ICE vehicle.  That's part of the appeal.  There are not a bajillion microscopic explosions every second hammering at pistons that turn a crankshaft to turn reciprocating motion into rotational motion to turn gears that trade off between speed and power depending on their gear ratio.  It's really simple: More power from the battery = more power into the motor = motor spins faster = wheels spin faster.  ICE drivetrain diagrams look like Rube Goldberg fantasies by comparison.

 

The motor is mounted directly on the axle, not perpendicular to it with gears transmitting power to the axle.  When I say my car has AWD, what I really mean is it has two separate motors, one on each axle.

^ interestingly the ICE is essentially the same technology that has existed for 100 years. Albeit, much more precise and efficient but the basic technology is the same. EVs will are the first true revolution in automobiles since then. 

2 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ interestingly the ICE is essentially the same technology that has existed for 100 years. Albeit, much more precise and efficient but the basic technology is the same. EVs will are the first true revolution in automobiles since then. 

 

EV technology has been around for longer than the ICE.  The innovation has been in batteries, allowing EVs to become more practical.

Edited December 28, 20204 yr by jam40jeff

The late 19th century EVs were sort of in the same vein, albeit on a lesser scale, as Leonardo da Vinci designing the helicopter in the late 15th century.  It's one of those things that forces one to grapple with the difference between science and engineering.  People say them together in the same breath like they're the same thing.  They're not.

 

Much of the fundamental science of electric motorization has been known for a long time.  Some of it has been known, as freefourur pointed out, for a century.

 

The engineering of electric vehicles has advanced by leaps and bounds in the last decade, most importantly on the power-to-weight ratio front (which would have been one of the things that doomed da Vinci's helicopter if he'd ever tried to manufacture it).

The late 19th century EVs were sort of in the same vein, albeit on a lesser scale, as Leonardo da Vinci designing the helicopter in the late 15th century.  It's one of those things that forces one to grapple with the difference between science and engineering.  People say them together in the same breath like they're the same thing.  They're not.
 
Much of the fundamental science of electric motorization has been known for a long time.  Some of it has been known, as freefourur pointed out, for a century.
 
The engineering of electric vehicles has advanced by leaps and bounds in the last decade, most importantly on the power-to-weight ratio front (which would have been one of the things that doomed da Vinci's helicopter if he'd ever tried to manufacture it).

Well, yeah, of course, but you could say the same thing about the ICE.

50 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

Much of the fundamental science of electric motorization has been known for a long time.  Some of it has been known, as freefourur pointed out, for a century.

 

They featured electric cars on an episode of Mr. Wizard's World that I watched in the 1980s.  Jay Leno has an electric car in his collection from around 1910. 

Had the same amount of effort went into electric cars as did ICE cars in those 100 years who knows how far they would have gone? In R/C, both developed at about the same pace (though the ICE ones had the benefit of being two-strokes running on a brew of methanol and nitromethane, a combination wholly unfit for road use) starting in the 1970s. Beginning around 2006 though the electrics went berserk through the combination of brushless motors and lithium-mix batteries. But then progress stopped again around 2012 and electric R/C hasn't changed much since.

 

The thing is that ICE got such a huge jump in development back in the 1910s since it was the easy button and gains came very quickly from 1910-WWII.

 

Here is a brief history of Dr. Porsche's involvement with electric cars going back to 1898: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/taycan/history-18563.html

Edited December 29, 20204 yr by GCrites80s

When people like me were pro-electric cars 15 years ago we were pro-electric cars because they promised to free us from overseas oil dependence and in theory could have a much lower long-term ownership cost.  Performance improvements were irrelevant.   

 

Unfortunately the car market has swung wildly and irrationally away from the budget cars that were all over the place in the 80s and 90s, and the nascent electric car industry has gone entirely toward high-end vehicles, not the cheap, pragmatic vehicles that everyone imagined during the Iraq invasion. 

 

What's insane is that all of the young people went to schools with air conditioning so the thought of owning a car without air conditioning is inconceivable.  Same with blue tooth blah blah blah.  All of that isn't so much adding to the cost of base models as it is letting car manufacturers charge way more for today's base models, which are at least a notch or two above what a base model was 15 years ago.  And they're only able to do this because of the 6-7 year loans that simply did not exist until quite recently. 

 

 

I mean, I remember base model cars that didn't have a radio of any kind.  There was just a black knock-out panel.  An AM/FM radio was a significant step up over an AM radio.  And AM/FM + cassette was huge.  I remember riding around with a battery-powered boombox in the back seat when my factory radio/cassette stopped working. 

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

When people like me were pro-electric cars 15 years ago we were pro-electric cars because they promised to free us from overseas oil dependence and in theory could have a much lower long-term ownership cost.  Performance improvements were irrelevant.   

 

Unfortunately the car market has swung wildly and irrationally away from the budget cars that were all over the place in the 80s and 90s, and the nascent electric car industry has gone entirely toward high-end vehicles, not the cheap, pragmatic vehicles that everyone imagined during the Iraq invasion. 

 

What's insane is that all of the young people went to schools with air conditioning so the thought of owning a car without air conditioning is inconceivable.  Same with blue tooth blah blah blah.  All of that isn't so much adding to the cost of base models as it is letting car manufacturers charge way more for today's base models, which are at least a notch or two above what a base model was 15 years ago.  And they're only able to do this because of the 6-7 year loans that simply did not exist until quite recently. 

 

I mean, I remember base model cars that didn't have a radio of any kind.  There was just a black knock-out panel.  An AM/FM radio was a significant step up over an AM radio.  And AM/FM + cassette was huge.  I remember riding around with a battery-powered boombox in the back seat when my factory radio/cassette stopped working. 

 

Performance improvements were irrelevant to whom?  The market's swing is irrational by whose definition?  Yours?  Maybe, but you have a fixation on cheapness that borders on asceticism, and I think you at least have some inkling of how non-mainstream your views on value are.  It is not insanity that today's cars come with sound systems.  It might be insanity that they come with 6-7 year loans, but some of them also come with 8-year 100,000-mile or unlimited-mile warranties, which you also wouldn't get on your 1990 Ford Fiesta.  And when you talk about AM/FM radio not being necessary, because people could travel with a boombox in the back, you're so far behind that you've actually caught up--the Tesla doesn't come with AM radio, because the electrical system of the car causes so much interference that you couldn't get reception anyway.

 

As for electric cars specifically, performance improvements were dramatically relevant.  My 2013 Nissan LEAF could maybe go 90 miles on a charge if you never needed climate control and never went to highway speeds.  And the adoption curve of luxury -> mid-market -> economy is hardly some kind of wacky, novel concept.  The notion that the proper place for EVs was as glorified golf carts, cheap and low-performing, is what was irrational.  If people really wanted such glorified golf carts, my old LEAF would have sold like the Altima.  Needless to say, it didn't, and Nissan's more recent updates to the LEAF have been to make it more high-end.  Tesla wouldn't be motivating other manufacturers to move up the quality scale if there was such inexhaustible demand for low-budget products.

 

Also, the first part of your original thesis from the Iraq war days is intact.  Electric cars do promise to free us from overseas oil dependence (as does fracking, of course, but the two both trend in that direction), and the jury is out on long-term ownership costs but the absence of legions of expensive moving parts that are necessary for an ICE powertrain certainly at least gives me cause for optimism.  No oil changes.  No transmission fluid changes.  No transmission, no alternator, no distributor, no engine with all its miniature explosions every second.  I can see an argument going the other way--my little sedan is more than 4000 pounds, so it's probably going to be hell on the suspension over the long term, and my tires are almost bald at 20,000 miles.  (Others have pointed out that just because the car can do 0-60 in 4.1 doesn't mean I have to every time I hit an onramp, but they can mind their own business.) 😎  But even the extra wear on the suspension and tires isn't likely to cancel out the savings on all the other parts that it simply doesn't have at all.  We'll see, of course.  My powertrain warranty is good to 2026.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/business/hydrogen-power-cars.html

 

The Gospel of Hydrogen Power

Mike Strizki powers his house and cars with hydrogen he home-brews. He is using his retirement to evangelize for the planet-saving advantages of hydrogen batteries.

 

Mr. Strizki favors fuel-cell cars for the same reasons as most proponents. You can make fuel using water and solar power, as he does. The byproduct of making hydrogen is oxygen, and the byproduct of burning it is water. Hydrogen is among the most plentiful elements on earth, so you don’t have to go to adversarial countries or engage in environmentally destructive extraction to get it. The car is as quiet to drive as any other electric, it requires little maintenance, and because it doesn’t carry 1,200 pounds of batteries, it has a performance edge

^I mean, I think there is probably a need for both hydrogen FCVs and BEVs...but I can select from more than a dozen EV models right now and charge them in my garage.  I can't say the same for FCVs.

19 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

I’m interested to see what this company can do. $51K for a 4WD truck with a 7,500 lb towing capacity isn’t a bad price. I’ll be in the market for a new pickup in a couple years and I might have to look at a Lordstown Endurance https://lordstownmotors.com/

 

The great EV pick-up war is set to begin late next year.  I don't know how the Endurance will do - those specs are basically the same as the base model RWD Cybertruck from Tesla, which comes in at $40k (no tax credit available, though...and I should note, Tesla often pulls its cheapest model at unveiling from production).  The Cybertruck's dual motor (second trim) is AWD, basically the same price as the base model Endurance (though the Endurance will come up with the full federal EV tax credit -> and their website says starting at $52.5k, btw), but with 300+ miles of range claimed, 10k pound towing capacity, probably faster 0-60, etc.  The bed on the Cybertruck is said to be about a foot longer as well (though...a redesign is supposedly coming and my guess is they have to take a foot off the length so it'll fit in a standard size garage).

 

Here's a quick rundown (by my findings, so perhaps incomplete) of all the EVs that have been unveiled so far:

-Tesla Cybertruck: As I mentioned, they're going to have to cut at least a foot off the length to fit it in a garage.  It's 19.8 feet now and most garages are 20 feet in length.  I also don't know how Tesla is playing this as part of their business -> they were well past 600k reservations at last check.  Of course, when it's a $100 fully refundable deposit, it might not tell you much about demand.  Tesla has prioritized its Model Y production out of its yet-to-be-completed Texas factory, leaving the timing of the Cybertruck in limbo.  My best guess is that we don't see the top end tri-motor model until 2022 at the earliest.

-Rivian R1T: These supposedly will start getting delivered by mid-2021.  It's a start-up, so who knows how they'll actually do meeting their claimed specs.  A lot of EV enthusiasts I know are pretty optimistic that Rivian will make a compelling truck.

-Bollinger B2: I know nothing about this.

-Lordstown Endurance: see above

-Atlis XT: No idea about this company but the specs for the price sound impressive (https://insideevs.com/reviews/341937/atlis-xt-electric-pickup-truck-reveal/)

-GMC Hummer EV: Edition 1 is said to go into production late in 2021 and then other versions coming in the years after.

-Ford F-150 EV: Could be possibly debuted in 2021, but Ford has said it will go on sale in mid-2022.  No prototype or specs or price yet.

-Nikola Badger: RIP, Nikola was a fraud lol (believe I called that in the investing thread)

-Hercules Alpha: new startup formed in 2018, I know nothing else

-Chevy EV: There is increased speculation that GM will offer a Chevy EV pickup truck of some kind with a shared body of the Hummer.  Timeline unknown.

Thanks for the breakdown. From an aesthetic standpoint and the fact that I have problems with Elon Musk, I don't like the Cybertruck. That's part of the reason why I like the Lordstown Edurance a little better. It looks like a pickup. I'd love to see what some of the legacy companies come up with but they've been so slow to get on board with EVs it's disappointing.

19 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

Performance improvements were irrelevant to whom?  The market's swing is irrational by whose definition?  Yours?  Maybe, but you have a fixation on cheapness that borders on asceticism, and I think you at least have some inkling of how non-mainstream your views on value are. 

 

Yeah my dad rode the bus to work when I was a kid an all we had was a Toyota stick hatchback with no AC, cassette player, or anything.  I received absolutely no "help" in acquiring a driver's license or in the purchase or ownership of a car.  Driver's ed, all insurance, the whole car, all repairs, all gasoline, etc.  I actually hitchhiked once to the DMV.  This is how and why I got into public transportation and bicycling well before the term "urbanist" and into being a cheapskate super-saver before "FIRE" existed.

 

I want a 1980 Tercel revival, but electric, and for it to cost $18,000.  Until then, that Chevy Spark stick is looking pretty good.

Did anyone else see GM's EV lineup?

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33352012/gm-electric-cars-cadillac-chevy-buick-hummer-specs/

 

I'm pretty excited about this and I'm seriously looking at the Bolt EUV as my next vehicle when I replace my Prius. I really like that GM is reviving the Hummer as an EV and it actually looks like a Hummer. I'm curious about their Silverado EV as well. I own a Silverado and we mainly use it to haul our camper and a horse trailer so I'm curious if the towing capacity is going to be on par or higher than the gas Silverado 1500 and how towing will effect range. If I can tow something 250 miles on one charge, that's pretty good as gas mileage in a truck when towing is pretty bad.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/23/22296991/hyundai-ioniq-5-electric-suv-ev-battery-range-specs

 

Hyundai unveiled their Ioniq 5 this week.

Oops.

Holy cow, that's an expensive recall. $11,000 per vehicle to replace the batteries, multiplied by 82k vehicles.

 

Quote

New York (CNN Business) - Hyundai will recall 82,000 electric cars globally to replace their batteries after 15 reports of fires involving the vehicles. Despite the relatively small number of cars involved, Hyundai's recall is one of the most expensive in history, signaling how electric car defects could create hefty costs for automakers — at least in the near future.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/25/tech/hyundai-ev-recall/index.html
 

Edited February 26, 20214 yr by David

Oh, you mean that's what it looks like what a competent automaker deals with a potentially deadly liability in their vehicles?  *glares at Tesla*

3 hours ago, David said:

Oops.

Holy cow, that's an expensive recall. $11,000 per vehicle to replace the batteries, multiplied by 82k vehicles.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/25/tech/hyundai-ev-recall/index.html
 

 

In 8-10 years, when EVs start needing battery swaps en masse, how many cars will be worth the expense? Who is going to spend $11,000 to put a new battery in a decade old Hyundai? A battery failure at that point might total the car.

 

As of 2019 (most recent year I can find on Google), the average age of a car on the road was 11.8 years, which was a new record. I think EVs might start to reverse that trend. Most of the warranties run out by 10 years/100,000 miles and even before that point there are things many warranties don't cover (like a battery that gradually ends up only able to hold 50% of its original capacity).

With the range of EVs it might make more sense to lease rather than buy. A car company with some sense should be setting up a battery recycling business on the side to profit off of replacements. Newer EVs are going to have smaller battery packs that are stacked inside the car and can be replaced more easily. 

 

Anecdotally, my parents had to get a new engine for their 2009 Equinox so it's not like combustion autos don't need major work within 10-12 years.

Equinoxen are known for being pure trash though.

35 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

In 8-10 years, when EVs start needing battery swaps en masse, how many cars will be worth the expense? Who is going to spend $11,000 to put a new battery in a decade old Hyundai? A battery failure at that point might total the car.

 

As of 2019 (most recent year I can find on Google), the average age of a car on the road was 11.8 years, which was a new record. I think EVs might start to reverse that trend. Most of the warranties run out by 10 years/100,000 miles and even before that point there are things many warranties don't cover (like a battery that gradually ends up only able to hold 50% of its original capacity).

 

Are replacement batteries going to still cost $11k in 2030? If a significant portion of the cars on the road in 10 years are electric, the economies of scale and additional technological advancements will probably lead to cheaper batteries when they reach the end of their useful life.

 

By no means is this guaranteed, but it's certainly not a static market.

It's hard to tell, R/C batteries haven't gotten any cheaper since lithium hit in 2006 or so. Unless you get some sketchy no-name one on ebay shipped from China that seems like it's always ready to blow and goes bad in half the time of a good one.

 

What I do know is that lithium demand has dispatched the entire 3rd World into finding lithium deposits in the past few years. They're finding a lot.

2 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

It's hard to tell, R/C batteries haven't gotten any cheaper since lithium hit in 2006 or so. Unless you get some sketchy no-name one on ebay shipped from China that seems like it's always ready to blow and goes bad in half the time of a good one.

 

What I do know is that lithium demand has dispatched the entire 3rd World into finding lithium deposits in the past few years. They're finding a lot.

Yeah, it's the same with E-bike batteries. I learned the hard way not to buy a Chinese. Those companies lie; they'll even claim they're LG or Samsung inside. You really have to be careful where you buy them. I paid $420 for a 42w 18Ah battery on Amazon for a custom e-bike I built and I could tell by the weight alone when I got it that it was more like 10-12ah. The housing was sealed so I couldn't inspect the batteries. I ended up trading the battery pack for 2 new 900w electric skateboards to some guy on Facebook Market Place so I was happy in the end. A good e-bike battery is more like $750. Lately, the internet has been flooded with extremely cheap Chinese ones for like $150 but I'm sure they're absolute trash and not at all what they claim to be.

Edited February 26, 20214 yr by David

3 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

In 8-10 years, when EVs start needing battery swaps en masse, how many cars will be worth the expense? Who is going to spend $11,000 to put a new battery in a decade old Hyundai? A battery failure at that point might total the car.

 

As of 2019 (most recent year I can find on Google), the average age of a car on the road was 11.8 years, which was a new record. I think EVs might start to reverse that trend. Most of the warranties run out by 10 years/100,000 miles and even before that point there are things many warranties don't cover (like a battery that gradually ends up only able to hold 50% of its original capacity).

 

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EV-Ownership-Cost-Final-Report-1.pdf

 

Quote

For all EVs analyzed, the lifetime ownership costs were many thousands of dollars lower than all comparable ICE vehicles’ costs, with most EVs offering savings of between $6,000 and $10,000. While new EVs were found to offer significant cost savings over comparable ICE vehicles, the cost savings of 5- to 7-year-old used EVs was found to be two or three times larger on a percentage savings basis.

 

new data extracted from recent Consumer Reports reliability surveys shows that both BEV and PHEV drivers are saving 50 percent on their repair and maintenance costs, when averaged over a typical vehicle lifetime.

 

19 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EV-Ownership-Cost-Final-Report-1.pdf

 

 

No way they're factoring in battery replacement! According to Google, it's $16,000 to replace a Tesla Model 3 battery. According to what someone said on a Tesla forum, it's $18k with labor. Also, whose to say they'll even offer battery replacement in the future, outside of warranty? Makes more sense for companies to force you to finance a new car. After all, they know VERY few people have $11-18k laying around for a battery replacement.

I read some of that report.
 

Quote

"Longer trips will still require occasional stops at stations equipped with DC fast chargers—or Superchargers, as Tesla calls them15—which can recharge your battery in 30 to 45 minutes, or about the time it takes to eat a quick meal."

They just lost all credibility with me. Who takes 45 minutes to eat a quick meal?! Is there going to be a Benihana next to all the supercharger stations?!

45 minutes ago, David said:

No way they're factoring in battery replacement! According to Google, it's $16,000 to replace a Tesla Model 3 battery. According to what someone said on a Tesla forum, it's $18k with labor. Also, whose to say they'll even offer battery replacement in the future, outside of warranty? Makes more sense for companies to force you to finance a new car. After all, they know VERY few people have $11-18k laying around for a battery replacement.

I read some of that report.
 

They just lost all credibility with me. Who takes 45 minutes to eat a quick meal?! Is there going to be a Benihana next to all the supercharger stations?!

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-repair-maintenance/pay-less-for-vehicle-maintenance-with-an-ev/

 

Quote

Currently, replacing a battery pack costs $5,500, on average, says RepairPal’s Trotta, or roughly the same as an engine replacement in a midrange gasoline vehicle. But battery packs tend to last a minimum of eight to 10 years. Electric motors can be more expensive to replace—ranging from $6,000 to $9,000—but Trotta says they usually outlast the vehicle.

 

Nearly all EVs come with at least an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty on the battery.  Many suppliers are now making "million mile" batteries.

 

As for the time to charge...have you just not been paying attention for the last 10 years?  That's pretty standard for EVs.  You take a bathroom break, get a bite to eat, and you've replaced a good portion of your range.  A lot of EVs now have 250+ mile range at highway speeds.  That's well over four hours before you'd run out of range.  Plus, there are several auto manufacturers who are implementing 800 volt charging infrastructure...enough to replace ~80% of the battery range in under 20 minutes.

On 2/26/2021 at 2:35 PM, David said:

No way they're factoring in battery replacement! According to Google, it's $16,000 to replace a Tesla Model 3 battery. According to what someone said on a Tesla forum, it's $18k with labor. Also, whose to say they'll even offer battery replacement in the future, outside of warranty? Makes more sense for companies to force you to finance a new car. After all, they know VERY few people have $11-18k laying around for a battery replacement.

 

It doesn't mention it and given the numbers, I think it's safe to assume they didn't factor it in. The report also admits that the EV numbers are speculative:

 

"However, because EVs are relatively new, little hard data are available to put numbers to these claims, and most estimates in the literature are based on predicted repair and maintenance costs."

 

The other link states $5,500 is the average cost to replace a battery, but that number seems like it was pulled out of a "RepairPal's" rear end. Hyundai is paying $11,000 per car as we speak and that's for an entry level EV.

On 2/26/2021 at 11:08 AM, JaceTheAce41 said:

Anecdotally, my parents had to get a new engine for their 2009 Equinox so it's not like combustion autos don't need major work within 10-12 years.

They were that attached...to an Equinox?  

🤣

They're passing a bill in Minnesota to make charging stations a part of the gas tax. I'm sure every other state will follow. 

On 2/28/2021 at 6:51 PM, Cleburger said:

They were that attached...to an Equinox?  

🤣

I know someone who just had a motor swapped on an '06... She's not the most rational human being.

On 3/8/2021 at 12:06 AM, David said:

They're passing a bill in Minnesota to make charging stations a part of the gas tax. I'm sure every other state will follow. 

 

Ohio tried to remedy that by tacking on a $200 annual fee to EV registrations and $100 annually for hybrids.

 

They'll find a way to get money from you somehow.

oberlin rolls out first public electric car share program in ohio:

https://chroniclet.com/news/256190/oberlin-rolls-out-car-sharing-plan-as-nation-goes-electric/

This month's Car and Driver magazine is reporting in their long range test of the Tesla Model 3 that now that Supercharging is no longer free that they pay the equivalent of $9 a gallon for charging at a Supercharger station. Charging at home hasn't changed outside of normal electric rate changes.

 

So just like that teaser rate that those people who incessantly call you house and business phone claiming to "save you money" on your electric bill then jack it to the stratosphere when the teaser rate is over and you don't expect it.

Edited April 27, 20214 yr by GCrites80s

13 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

This month's Car and Driver magazine is reporting in their long range test of the Tesla Model 3 that now that Supercharging is no longer free that they pay the equivalent of $9 a gallon for charging at a Supercharger station. Charging at home hasn't changed outside of normal electric rate changes.

 

So just like that teaser rate that those people who incessantly call you house and business phone claiming to "save you money" on your electric bill then jack it to the stratosphere when the teaser rate is over and you don't expect it.

 

Is there a link?

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2013/06/21/tesla-announces-90-second-battery-swap-option-for-model-s-owners/

 

Quote

"When you come to the Tesla station--it shouldn't really be called the 'supercharging station,' it should just be called the Tesla station--you have the choice of the Supercharger, which is and always will be free, or you have the choice of a battery pack swap, which is faster than you can fill a gas tank," said Tesla CEO Elon Musk. "So, the only choice you have to make when you come to one of our stations is, do you prefer faster or free?"

 

8 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Is there a link?

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2013/06/21/tesla-announces-90-second-battery-swap-option-for-model-s-owners/

 

 

 

No the magazine just came yesterday.

Are you referring to this Car and Driver, from back in January?

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35152087/tesla-model-3-charging-costs-per-mile/

 

I'll be interested to see that math.  I paid $0.26/kWh at the Polaris Supercharger this past weekend, and I think the Cambridge and Mt. Gilead Superchargers are the same price, so significantly more than my $0.14/kWh home rate, but not that much more.  If the math really worked out to paying $9 equivalent a gallon for Supercharging, it would mean I'd been paying between $4.50 and $5/gal at home.  That really does not look credible.  My electric bill has barely budged.  And while I charge for free at work on a 3-prong outlet, that's trivial; it adds about 4 miles of charge per hour, so about 32 miles of charge in an 8-hour workday, or the equivalent of my employer basically giving me one gallon of gas per day.  For my trips to Columbus and Newark recently, I've been charging all the way to full overnight in my garage.  My electric bill has not significantly moved.

 

Another way of looking at it: If my 310-mile range were reconceptualized as 10 "gallons" (31 miles each), it would cost me $90 to fill my "tank" (battery) at a Supercharger at $9 per "gallon."  Even when I charged from less than 20 miles of range left to more than 240, it cost me something like $15-20.  That's about 7 "gallons" in this metaphor at around $2.20-$2.80 each.

 

Charging at a Supercharger is much more expensive than charging at home, which in turn of course is more expensive than charging for free.  But even charging at a Supercharger can't possibly get you to $9/gal.

No the long term test update just came out in print a few days ago. It has nothing to do with your home rate -- only at the Supercharger stations they used. Next time you're at the supermarket look through the magazine. It's in with the long-term Telluride test.

Then the questions become: Why were they charged that much at the stations that they used? Where were the stations that charged that much? When was it? Is Tesla aware of the charges? Are they behind it? Have they adopted "surge pricing" for Supercharger stations? What do they plan on doing about it?

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/05/f-150-lightning-fords-first-electric-truck/618932/ (Warning: 3-article-per-month limit)

 

Stop Worrying and Love the F-150 Lightning

Here are seven ways Ford’s first electric pickup truck signals that decarbonization has entered a new era.

 

it isn’t any electric car. It’s a Ford F-150, the country’s best-selling vehicle in every year since Donkey Kong debuted and Ronald Reagan entered the White House. One in every 16 vehicles on American roads is an F-150, and it is the most used vehicle in 39 states, according to a Boston Consulting Group study commissioned by Ford. “There’s lots of different kinds of sodas; there’s only one Coke. There’s lots of different electric pickup trucks, but there’s only one F-150,” Jim Farley, Ford’s chief executive, told me, which may sound immodest but actually borders on understatement: Receipts from F-Series trucks alone exceed Coca-Cola’s annual corporate revenue; that of every major U.S. sports league, combined; or Disney’s global theme-park business. According to the same BCG study, 8 percent of the U.S. labor force uses an F-Series truck in their daily job.

 

Or more relevant, for our purposes: Ford sells about 900,000 F-150s every year; all automakers collectively sold 250,000 new EVs total last year. “This may be one of the important products in decarbonization,” Tim Latimer, an energy-industry veteran, tweeted last week. (He is now the chief executive of the geothermal company Fervo.) An electric F-150 opens up an enormous new market for EVs and signals that climate-friendly technology has reached the soybean fields and construction sites of middle America.

...

 

Perhaps the most intriguing aspect of the F-150 Lightning is that its target audience is not necessarily consumers. For the first time ever, Ford is selling a version of the F-150 aimed at corporate fleet managers: Think landscaping companies, HVAC-repair companies, electricians, any company that operates multiple trucks at once. Corporate fleets are, in many ways, even better suited for electrification than consumer vehicles. They are driven every day but rarely travel long distances, they benefit from the lower upkeep costs of an EV, and they are usually stored in the same place overnight—which means they can be charged overnight. Ford says that for the first time, fleet managers will be able to see the location of all their trucks on a map, and they will be able to monitor their charge levels remotely. This combination of lower fuel costs and greater workplace surveillance strikes me as all but guaranteeing the electrification of many corporate fleets.

 

...

 

===========================

 

Lots of great information in that article and it was difficult to determine what to excerpt--some price, performance, and other information are also there.

Bad news for one of northeast Ohio's more ambitious EV startups, and a significant strategic project for the region considering the need to find a productive use for the shuttered GM Lordstown plant:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/lordstown-motors-amends-annual-filing-with-going-concern-notice-11623181411?mod=business_lead_pos1 (subscription required for full article)

 

Lordstown Motors Says It Doesn’t Have Cash to Start Commercial Production

The electric-truck startup also says that it has doubts about whether it can continue as a going concern through the end of the year

 

Electric-truck startup Lordstown Motors Corp. disclosed that it doesn’t have sufficient cash to start full commercial production and has doubts about whether it can continue as a going concern through the end of the year.

 

The disclosure Tuesday marks the latest trouble for Lordstown Motors, one of several electric-vehicle and battery startups that went public last year through reverse mergers with special-purpose acquisition companies, or SPACs.

 

Lordstown Motors amended its annual report to include the going-concern notice, which can flag survival problems for businesses. The warning comes as new challenges emerge for the two-year-old company that is trying to convert a former General Motors Co. plant in Ohio to produce electric pickup trucks. It has said its first model, the Endurance, will start production in September.

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