I like the name Spiders, but if they change logo or team name all together, I hope they announce it as something that

Would happen in 3-5 years in the future.

 

It will give time for people (like me) who love chief wahoo to realize his time belongs in the past, and not have to force the issue.

 

If "redskins" is unacceptable in 2014, there is a good chance that "Indians" will be unacceptable in 2018.

 

 

When the Redskins fall the Indians are next. It doesn't matter if they're phasing it out. It's their official statement that they are not actually doing that. A lie for the whiney bigot set, but an official statement none the less. They may just run out of time.

 

No way. No way do we lose the name Indians.

As for the name, the team was respectfully named after a player.

 

I think that this claim is definitely up for debate.

 

Here's an excellent piece from Belt Magazine (not sure if this has been posted) that discusses this bit of lore and other issues surrounding Chief Wahoo:

 

http://beltmag.com/secret-history-chief-wahoo/

from the "You Can't Make This Stuff Up" file:

 

The government decided that ‘Redskins’ bothers you

GEORGE F. WILL Opinion Writer

June 27 at 7:46 PM

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-the-government-decided-that-redskins-bothers-you/2014/06/27/669558a6-fd54-11e3-932c-0a55b81f48ce_story.html

 

"Amanda Blackhorse, a Navajo who successfully moved a federal agency to withdraw trademark protections from the Washington Redskins because it considers the team’s name derogatory, lives on a reservation where Navajos root for the Red Mesa High School Redskins. She opposes this name; the Native Americans who picked and retain it evidently do not."

from the "You Can't Make This Stuff Up" file:

 

The government decided that ‘Redskins’ bothers you

GEORGE F. WILL Opinion Writer

June 27 at 7:46 PM

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-the-government-decided-that-redskins-bothers-you/2014/06/27/669558a6-fd54-11e3-932c-0a55b81f48ce_story.html

 

"Amanda Blackhorse, a Navajo who successfully moved a federal agency to withdraw trademark protections from the Washington Redskins because it considers the team’s name derogatory, lives on a reservation where Navajos root for the Red Mesa High School Redskins. She opposes this name; the Native Americans who picked and retain it evidently do not."

 

I've heard that the term "redskin" is considered in some circles as being a slur on par with the n-word.  It probably then doesn't matter that some Native Americans have "reclaimed" the word, so to speak, somewhat similar to the way that blacks have taken back the n-word.  It may be a double standard, and one that I don't fully understand, but I know better and have enough respect to realize that that doesn't make it right for me to use the word.

^well folks, I give up! It's over. Political correctness has won. Maybe we can somehow still salvage what's left of America :roll:

from the "You Can't Make This Stuff Up" file:

 

The government decided that ‘Redskins’ bothers you

GEORGE F. WILL Opinion Writer

June 27 at 7:46 PM

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-the-government-decided-that-redskins-bothers-you/2014/06/27/669558a6-fd54-11e3-932c-0a55b81f48ce_story.html

 

"Amanda Blackhorse, a Navajo who successfully moved a federal agency to withdraw trademark protections from the Washington Redskins because it considers the team’s name derogatory, lives on a reservation where Navajos root for the Red Mesa High School Redskins. She opposes this name; the Native Americans who picked and retain it evidently do not."

 

I've heard that the term "redskin" is considered in some circles as being a slur on par with the n-word.  It probably then doesn't matter that some Native Americans have "reclaimed" the word, so to speak, somewhat similar to the way that blacks have taken back the n-word.  It may be a double standard, and one that I don't fully understand, but I know better and have enough respect to realize that that doesn't make it right for me to use the word.

Should squares be allowed to use the term 'freaks'? Should Catholics be allowed to use the term 'Protestants'?

if we have inane crape like "the n-word", shouldn't we be talking about the R**skin word?

Just rename the team the "Clevo guys who used to live here, who we respect but can't utter their name because they will file a lawsuit"...

I always cheered for the Indians on F Troop!!

 

This shows the ridiculousness of the entire argument!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpGfyp6MxkM

Let's not conflate two discussions here.  "Indians" is a geographically inaccurate but mostly benign nickname.  Above I was talking about the term "redskins," which to many Native Americans (and non-Native Americans) is considered a slur.  Under no circumstance in this country would we accept a professional sports team being nicknamed the "n-words," right?  I mean, even the above posters seemingly supporting continued use of the "redskins" nickname would concede that point, right?  So why would use of "redskins" be acceptable?  Because it's tradition?

And for the record, I would have no problem using the actual "n-word" on this thread to prove a point, but I like posting here and don't want to be suspended.  However, just because one slur has come to be taboo in our society, in part because the group at which it has been aimed is larger and more visible and refused to accept its common usage, and the other slur is still acceptable perhaps because the group its aimed at is not, does not mean that it's morally right to keep using it so casually.

While I think it's pretty likely we lose Chief Wahoo and retain the name 'Indians', I'd like a throwback to the Cleveland Spiders of the turn of the century. Now if only we could find another Cy Young...

I would prefer that the team just got rid of the logo because it brings out nothing but ugliness from both sides that feel so strongly one way or another.  On the one hand, you have the Blackhorse lady and her ilk who will drastically overreach and undermine any legitimate complaints on the issue.  On the other hand, the blatantly bigoted crowd, who care nothing about the logo other than that they love the fact it offends a minority group, will literally become the "flag-bearer" for our professional baseball team while trying to paint it as a fight against "political correctness."  It's an issue that draws all the crazies to the front and center, and I prefer it all just went away.  It's not a good look for our City

When the Redskins fall the Indians are next. It doesn't matter if they're phasing it out. It's their official statement that they are not actually doing that. A lie for the whiney bigot set, but an official statement none the less. They may just run out of time.

 

Wanting to keep the logo that represents your baseball team doesn't make you a bigot. That is a lazy argument meant to paint the supporters as some sort of villain. There are many shades of gray between the two extremes Hts121 talked about.

I would prefer that the team just got rid of the logo because it brings out nothing but ugliness from both sides that feel so strongly one way or another.  On the one hand, you have the Blackhorse lady and her ilk who will drastically overreach and undermine any legitimate complaints on the issue.  On the other hand, the blatantly bigoted crowd, who care nothing about the logo other than that they love the fact it offends a minority group, will literally become the "flag-bearer" for our professional baseball team while trying to paint it as a fight against "political correctness."  It's an issue that draws all the crazies to the front and center, and I prefer it all just went away.  It's not a good look for our City

 

Good point.  That circus we saw on Opening Day outside of the stadium seems to be becoming much more common (or at least drawing more media attention than in the past decade or two).

As I've always hoped someone who isn't as lazy as myself has gotten the Cleveland Guardians ball rolling. It's taken years of dropping the idea into comment sections, social media, and forums. Go my ear-worm minions go. OK, quite probable that it's someone who came to it independently, but here we go.

 

https://twitter.com/CLEGuardians

i like it, but it sounds too much like an insurance company.

 

no wait, maybe that could help with their slogans!

 

we insure wins.

 

we've got this covered.

 

you're in good hands with the guardians.

 

be safe, make sure you've bought your tix in advance.

 

you're as safe at home plate as you are at home with the guardians.

 

guardians of the baseball galaxy.

 

etc.

 

 

To clarify I don't personally think the Indians name must change, but if it were up to me and I was already putting the Chief out to pasture, I'd drop the Indians as well. Get away from or just modify a bit the Red/White/Blue color scheme in some way, and gain some pretty cool artwork to pool a new brand from. All the while mitigating against any future change in public mindset.

When the Redskins fall the Indians are next. It doesn't matter if they're phasing it out. It's their official statement that they are not actually doing that. A lie for the whiney bigot set, but an official statement none the less. They may just run out of time.

 

No way. No way do we lose the name Indians.

 

I'm sorry I should have said Cheif Wahoo was next.

 

When the Redskins fall the Indians are next. It doesn't matter if they're phasing it out. It's their official statement that they are not actually doing that. A lie for the whiney bigot set, but an official statement none the less. They may just run out of time.

 

Wanting to keep the logo that represents your baseball team doesn't make you a bigot. That is a lazy argument meant to paint the supporters as some sort of villain. There are many shades of gray between the two extremes Hts121 talked about.

I'm sorry that I was painting with so large a brush that you felt drawn into it.

This is an emotional issue all around.  Let's remember to treat all fellow forum members with respect, and not let emotion get the better of us.

 

Thanks

The Indians do not need a name change!  I'm a person of color and can see both sides of situations.  I can also understand how Native Americans can find this offensive.

 

If they did ever have to change their name, "The Guardians" should not be an options. This is a baseball team, not a video game or sci-fi movie.

I really don't think the name is or ever will be an issue.  Indians is a misnomer for sure, but it has been embraced by a good bit of the 'American Indian' society.  I think we would at least be in the clear until we see changes made to the names of The National Congress of American Indians, The American Indian College Fund, The American Indian Movement, etc., etc.  I've personally stopped using the term 'Native American' just like I don't use the term 'African-American'.  Not one of my black friends wastes their breath on 'African-American', so why should I?

 

If we get caught up in a debate about the name when we haven't even yet dealt with the issue of the logo, it would be akin to the usual strategy of changing any debate about gun control into a question of whether guns should be banned.  It's a distraction to a legitimate issue.  To be clear, I'm in absolutely no way chiding anyone for discussing it.  I am simply giving my take, same as the rest of you.

I really don't think the name is or ever will be an issue.  Indians is a misnomer for sure, but it has been embraced by a good bit of the 'American Indian' society.  I think we would at least be in the clear until we see changes made to the names of The National Congress of American Indians, The American Indian College Fund, The American Indian Movement, etc., etc.  I've personally stopped using the term 'Native American' just like I don't use the term 'African-American'.  Not one of my black friends wastes their breath on 'African-American', so why should I?

 

If we get caught up in a debate about the name when we haven't even yet dealt with the issue of the logo, it would be akin to the usual strategy of changing any debate about gun control into a question of whether guns should be banned.  It's a distraction to a legitimate issue.  To be clear, I'm in absolutely no way chiding anyone for discussing it.  I am simply giving my take, same as the rest of you.

 

Thats because many "African American" people are mixed so Black is more acceptable.  It can be confusing as people like me from mixed marriage can identify with one or both race. Just like I tell you guys "Hispanic" is insulting and to use "Latino", I've been told by Native Americans not to use "American Indian" as the government created that.

I don't know one black person who would give that as the reason why they use the term black over African-American.  I get what you are saying, but it is much more a matter of simplicity.

 

Some of the more prestigious societies use the term American Indian.  I'm sure you can find some 10% Cherokee hipster with a latte in a Starbucks who will tell you it should not be used, but I'll never forget going to a reservation when I was in grade school and the guys who still chose to live somewhat like American Indians simply used the term 'Indian' to describe themselves.

I don't know one black person who would give that as the reason why they use the term black over African-American.  I get what you are saying, but it is much more a matter of simplicity.

 

Some of the more prestigious societies use the term American Indian.  I'm sure you can find some 10% Cherokee hipster with a latte in a Starbucks who will tell you it should not be used, but I'll never forget going to a reservation when I was in grade school and the guys who still chose to live somewhat like American Indians simply used the term 'Indian' to describe themselves.

 

Exactly you don't know one.  I've had people say to me, or ask if I am AA and I'll respond, "I'm (American) Black and Puerto Rican"  But lets not get off off off topic.

Thats because many "African American" people are mixed so Black is more acceptable.  It can be confusing as people like me from mixed marriage can identify with one or both race. Just like I tell you guys "Hispanic" is insulting and to use "Latino", I've been told by Native Americans not to use "American Indian" as the government created that.

 

Off topic, but I had to laugh at a certain local broadcaster kept calling a Ghana fan at the world cup "African American." Umm, she's wearing the Ghana jersey, with the Ghana flag draped over her...I'm pretty sure she's just "African" lol.

Thats because many "African American" people are mixed so Black is more acceptable.  It can be confusing as people like me from mixed marriage can identify with one or both race. Just like I tell you guys "Hispanic" is insulting and to use "Latino", I've been told by Native Americans not to use "American Indian" as the government created that.

 

Off topic, but I had to laugh at a certain local broadcaster kept calling a Ghana fan at the world cup "African American." Umm, she's wearing the Ghana jersey, with the Ghana flag draped over her...I'm pretty sure she's just "African" lol.

LOL.  Your people need geography, nationality, ethnicity and cultural training!  LOL

I really don't think the name is or ever will be an issue.  Indians is a misnomer for sure, but it has been embraced by a good bit of the 'American Indian' society.  I think we would at least be in the clear until we see changes made to the names of The National Congress of American Indians, The American Indian College Fund, The American Indian Movement, etc., etc.  I've personally stopped using the term 'Native American' just like I don't use the term 'African-American'.  Not one of my black friends wastes their breath on 'African-American', so why should I?

 

Of course, there's still the National Associate for the Advancement of Colored People and the United Negro College Fund, so that argument might not always work.

^I would say that the difference is that no one has ever used the term "indian" in a derogatory way.  Many minorities still refer to themselves as a 'person of color', but calling the black guy in your office 'colored' might draw a negative reaction due to the historical context.  With that said, when the NAACP originated (beginning of 20th Century), 'colored' was actually viewed as a more favorable and 'politically correct' descriptor than other terms commonly used at that time.  Negro, without the historical context, is also something that would not be considered offensive.  It is simply black in Spanish.  Indian is a misnomer, but not a derogatory term.  Moreover, it is commonly used by the group it incorrectly describes.... probably even moreso than they use Native American.  That is what differentiates it from Redskins.  Now, of course, it doesn't take much to tweak the term into something offense.... such as engine.  If you say negro with the typical Cliven Bundy-esque twang, replacing the 'e' with an 'i' and the 'o' with an 'a', the context and intent changes.  Context and intent matter.  It's why some jokes are offensively racist and some jokes are hysterically racist.

It sort of fits here, so here it is.  The #5 song of all of 1969, by the 1910 Fruitgum Company.  Chances are next to nil you will ever hear this on a radio again!

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjTcMEFhhQQ

^ Holy cow! That bass player is playing my 1967 semi-hollow body Epiphone Rivoli!!!!!

Chief Wahoo is still around? I though that was done for long ago. That really does need to go.

 

I'd change it to Spiders, because:

 

-- It's unique: Spiders is not used by other major league US sports team

--Like Indians, Spiders is connected to authentic Cleveland sports history;

 

Reasons to retire the name, and to let it go peacefully:

--The NCAA did this years ago

--Changing the name from Indians means the city will no longer stand out as having a mascot based on another group of people, however well-intentioned or benign it might seem to locals;

--a poorly handled transition that generates strong local opposition will paint Clevelanders as defenders of racist anachronisms.   

 

Chief Wahoo is still around? I though that was done for long ago. That really does need to go.

 

I'd change it to Spiders, because:

 

-- It's unique: Spiders is not used by other major league US sports team

--Like Indians, Spiders is connected to authentic Cleveland sports history;

 

Reasons to retire the name, and to let it go peacefully:

--The NCAA did this years ago

--Changing the name from Indians means the city will no longer stand out as having a mascot based on another group of people, however well-intentioned or benign it might seem to locals;

--a poorly handled transition that generates strong local opposition will paint Clevelanders as defenders of racist anachronisms.   

 

 

Re: NCAA, The Florida State Seminoles aren't going anywhere.

 

You have a point about Chief Wahoo, who is indeed a kooky mascot and is already practically phased out. But as long as the Indians name is seen in homage, the name should remain imho.

 

We already have a football team that's never been to the Super Bowl. And a basketball team that's never won the title. Do you really want the trifecta of another major sports team thats never won anything?

I think the claim that Chief Wahoo is being phased out is false

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Wahoo#Allegations_of_phase-out

I think the claim that Chief Wahoo is being phased out is false

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Wahoo#Allegations_of_phase-out

 

Not to mention that Paul Dolan specifically said as much during the home opener last year when being interviewed by Triv. Granted, I wouldn't expect him to admit it on the radio if they were, but he also wouldn't likely have denied it so adamantly.

I think once Redskins goes, Chief Wahoo is next. I wouldn't really oppose it. I love Chief Wahoo but it's pretty demeaning. Why not let him fade away quietly without the PR debacle going on in Washington?

 

On the other hand, I'd really put up a fight over changing the name. I think removing Chief Wahoo will lessen the offensiveness of Indians.

 

I do like Spiders if for some reason we had to lose Indians.

I think once Redskins goes, Chief Wahoo is next. I wouldn't really oppose it. I love Chief Wahoo but it's pretty demeaning. Why not let him fade away quietly without the PR debacle going on in Washington?

 

On the other hand, I'd really put up a fight over changing the name. I think removing Chief Wahoo will lessen the offensiveness of Indians.

 

I do like Spiders if for some reason we had to lose Indians.

 

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing the chief go. I love the Block C logo and I think it looks a lot better (and is much older than Chief Wahoo). But I agree about the name. I would not be happy about that at all.