2 hours ago, gg707 said:

 

The kind of people who are willing to be more than 50 floors above ground do not fit the character of the gateway community!

Committed homeowners will protect their interests in their own neighborhoods.  - Too few activist homeowners downtown to worry about, yet.
I'll just say that everyone pretends to promote "empowering neighborhood residents." ...until they don't. 
#LipService  👄((💄)) 

Edited March 29, 20214 yr by ExPatClevGuy

1 hour ago, gg707 said:

 

The kind of people who are willing to be more than 50 floors above ground do not fit the character of the gateway community!

Lmao 😂😂😂

2 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

To me it wasn't even about the look per say it was you are putting a 54 story tower next to a 3-4 story building. The 2nd iteration matched the tones better and was a more appropriate height for the area. 

 

If there were more high-rises built farther south along East 9th Street, it might blend in better.....

4 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

If there were more high-rises built farther south along East 9th Street, it might blend in better.....

A certain condo project on the old New York Spaghetti House site (which has definitely been on mute lately) would help.

29 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

A certain condo project on the old New York Spaghetti House site (which has definitely been on mute lately) would help.

I recall a NeoTrans article too that discussed MLB’s desire to have more activity near their stadium sites.  Plenty of pavement near Thirsty Parrot and 9th and Carnegie to see something go vertical.

 

Besides the 54 story version of nuCLEus, I wonder just how many developers are seeking TMUD credits.  It’s going to be fun to see late June what projects receive them.

There's a backlog of projects from the pandemic but there may also be a backlog of credits from the prior fiscal year. I hope we'll seem draft guidance from the state in the next month or so.

The amount of TMUD, if any, may determine which version of Nucleus makes it through.

 

On 3/29/2021 at 9:41 AM, gg707 said:

 

The kind of people who are willing to be more than 50 floors above ground do not fit the character of the gateway community!

 

What's this talk about going vertical when the average downtown resident is in fact underground? 17,936 are 6-feet under at E9th and Erie Ct alone!

2 hours ago, infrafreak said:

 

What's this talk about going vertical when the average downtown resident is in fact underground? 17,936 are 6-feet under at E9th and Erie Ct alone!

 

Are you joking or are there really 18,000 bodies in Erie St Cemetery?

10 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

Are you joking or are there really 18,000 bodies in Erie St Cemetery?

 

According the city, that's the number of internments at Erie St.

http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/CityofCleveland/Home/Government/CityAgencies/ParksRecreationandProperties/Cemeteries

 

Redirecting the conversation to NuCLEus, here's what excites me if we can be picky:

• Height of original tower, mixed use, unique mix of first-to-market and local tenants (Starbucks Reserve, Cleveland Live, etc)
• Thoughtful E 4th like Pedestrian Laneway WITH parking garage liner for a thoughtful street presence
• Minimal curb cuts for the parking garage with thoughtful consideration of ingress/egress
• Inclusion of Herold building

When NEOTrans reported on Stark's slimmed-down single 25-story tower version of Nucleus last April,  Stark reps expressed a need for expediency. Why? - Because of the concern that a prolonged delay could threaten Benesch's commitment - not to Nucleus, but to staying in Cleveland.  Since that article, a year has gone by.  I know we're waiting for TMUD credit news, hopefully, by late June.

 

Just wondering - Is Benesch still fully committed to Nucleus? I forget whether or not they extended their current lease.  If it's true, (as @KJPposted in  late March) that Nucleus will, at the least, go forward in the 25 story version by the end of 2021 , then perhaps the timetable for Benesch is not a problem.   Meanwhile,  the current quiet - coupled with @KJP's late March post that Stark is considering  a return to the 54 story version pending a TMUD award (and wouldn't Nucleus perfectly fit the bill for one?)  has me feeling very hopeful that CLE still has a chance at a second blockbuster tower project concurrent with Sherwin-Williams.  Just imagine if that happens.   

Edited April 14, 20214 yr by CleveFan

9 hours ago, CleveFan said:

When NEOTrans reported on Stark's slimmed-down single 25-story tower version of Nucleus last April,  Stark reps expressed a need for expediency. Why? - Because of the concern that a prolonged delay could threaten Benesch's commitment - not to Nucleus, but to staying in Cleveland.  Since that article, a year has gone by.  I know we're waiting for TMUD credit news, hopefully, by late June.

 

Just wondering - Is Benesch still fully committed to Nucleus? I forget whether or not they extended their current lease.  If it's true, (as @KJPposted in  late March) that Nucleus will, at the least, go forward in the 25 story version by the end of 2021 , then perhaps the timetable for Benesch is not a problem.   Meanwhile,  the current quiet - coupled with @KJP's late March post that Stark is considering  a return to the 54 story version pending a TMUD award (and wouldn't Nucleus perfectly fit the bill for one?)  has me feeling very hopeful that CLE still has a chance at a second blockbuster tower project concurrent with Sherwin-Williams.  Just imagine if that happens.   

 

Look at it this way. The entire TMUD bill was created for this project--the 54 story version. Thompson Hine wrote the bill for Stark basically. Way back in summer of 2018, Stark released a press release about how great the TMUD bill was and how much it would help NuCLEus--the 54 story version. It may seem like NuCLEus has been in the works for forever. It kind of has since we're approaching seven years since the concept was first announced. But for THREE of those years, the TMUD has been churning through the processes it has to go through for Stark to get money. The bill/plan was probably in the works for months before then, so we can reasonably conclude that half of the time Stark has been planning NuCLEus it was working on the TMUD.

 

The TMUD credit is what Stark has been hoping/waiting/working for for more than three years! The law is tailor made for NuCLEus, and it seems highly likely to me that Stark will get a credit.

 

There are no guarantees about this project getting built in any form. But if you think about it, it makes a whole lot of sense for Stark to build the original plan. The shorter two-tower iteration was released during a time period when the TMUD was faltering. And the single tower iteration, I've always believed, was a compromise in case Benesch ever lost patience, never Stark's primary plan.

 

Oh and by the way, Thompson Hine (who again, wrote the bill) believes the first credits will be awarded this summer for projects to break ground this year. https://www.thompsonhine.com/publications/ohio-establishes-transformational-mixed-use-development-tax-credit

 

So my point is that when you reflect it's not crazy at all to think the Jenga NuCLEus could get built. Stark is probably about to get exactly what they've been working and hoping for for more than three years. If that doesn't allow them to build a "transformational" project, then what was the point of all this effort?

 

EDIT: Also, both the for-sale and the rental market are bonkers compared to summer of 2018. Construction is more expensive too, but it hasn't risen nearly as much as rent and home prices. So if Stark thought this could work back in 2018 with apartments and maybe a few condos, the math is better for them now.

Edited April 14, 20214 yr by LlamaLawyer

On 4/14/2021 at 8:35 AM, LlamaLawyer said:

 

Look at it this way. The entire TMUD bill was created for this project-

 

I wish it worked that way.

 

Edited June 8, 20214 yr by MrR

6 minutes ago, MrR said:

 

I wish it worked that way.

 

I remember when everyone said the same about tax credits for development of the May Company building at public square... and then all of a sudden a "bigger better" project came along - the renovation of the huntington building with it's grand lobby and blah blah blah...huntington beat out may company.  may company building owners fell flat on their face and had to sell to dan gilbert who got those tax credits after huntington turned out to be an epic failure.

 

the people deciding who gets the TMUD are going to come in from around the state with selective amnesia and their own agendas

 

(i hope you're right tho and they do get award some big $)

This is exactly right.  Ironic but it is hardly a sure thing that Stark will win one of these very competitive credits.

A little more than a year ago, Stark was ready to pull the trigger on building the single 25-story nuCLEus tower. The firm had the financing to move forward on that plan and reportedly still does. In February 2020, Stark employees were publicly and privately dropping hints like this one.....

 

 

On March 2, 2020, I sent an e-mail to COO Ezra Stark asking him about rumors that nuCLEus would break ground in the summer. Stark often would just acknowledge receiving my e-mails by clicking the read-receipt tab. But this time, he replied with "touch base next week to discuss."  But in the span of that one week, the world had changed. COVID was entering America in force and Gov. DeWine ordered a state of emergency on March 9. Stark put nuCLEus and all other new projects on hold. Their retail and college dorm business was hit hard.

 

But Stark has secured $22 million in new working capital and received COVID business relief funds. Stark is coming out of this OK.

 

From everything I am hearing, Stark can announce building the 25-story nuCLEus tower today but isn't going to. It's going to try to get a TMUD tax credit and if it does, it will likely pursue a mixed-use tower of residential (including possibly condos) and offices that exceeds 50 stories. If Stark doesn't get a TMUD tax credit and they're not guaranteed to get it just because they came up with the idea (and MrR is right to mention the Carney family which came up with the $25 million catalytic historic tax credit but couldn't get it for the May Co), then look for Stark to pursue the 25-story nuCLEus project. Perhaps the project will be designed like the 515 Euclid parking garage so it can add another tower atop it if Stark wants to keep trying for TMUD credits in future years?

13 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

This is exactly right.  Ironic but it is hardly a sure thing that Stark will win one of these very competitive credits.

 

Well of course it's not a "sure thing." But NuCLEus fits the bill perfectly and Stark has had years to plan out its approach in addition to consulting with the folks who wrote the bill. Some other project in Columbus or Cincinnati could come out of nowhere and eat up credits, of course. I would just point out that:

 

1. Even though the credits will be competitive in a strict sense, Stark has an advantage over every other developer.

2. There are $80 million worth in credits for urban developments. That number is probably more like $160 million because June starts a new year. The credits must be no more than 10% of the project cost. That means to exhaust the money, there has to be $1.6 billion in development. Unless there is more than $1.2 billion in development that beats out Stark, Stark can still get its full $40 million if it's approved.

 

So obviously nobody knows what is going to happen, but based on the above, I would argue it is more than 50% likely Stark will get a significant TMUD credit.

when is the vote or decision on who gets the tax credits? is there a set date yet?

No.  The state hasn't even published the draft rules for submitting applications.

Does this new  proposed apartment tower in Nashville remind you just slightly of anything? Actually, I guess there will be two new towers  side by side in Nashville, as shown.

(These are coming from developer Tony Giarratana - who is single-handedly transforming the Nashville skyline.  He already brought home the 550 foot 505 condos, completed in 2018

and revealed details on a new 600' high curving glass - "Sobro Tower"  - just two days ago - it was mentioned and shown in the SW HQ thread today)   Obviously, Tony's heart is in Nashville - where he's definitely getting it done.  Let's hope Mr. Stark's is still in Cleveland with respect to a TMUD- enhanced Nucleus.   

Edited April 21, 20214 yr by CleveFan

On 4/16/2021 at 8:01 AM, KJP said:

No.  The state hasn't even published the draft rules for submitting applications.

 

Ohio Tax Credit Authority will discuss draft administrative rules on April 26th. 

On 4/21/2021 at 6:22 PM, CleveFan said:

Does this new  proposed apartment tower in Nashville remind you just slightly of anything? Actually, I guess there will be two new towers  side by side in Nashville, as shown.

(These are coming from developer Tony Giarratana - who is single-handedly transforming the Nashville skyline.  He already brought home the 550 foot 505 condos, completed in 2018

and revealed details on a new 600' high curving glass - "Sobro Tower"  - just two days ago - it was mentioned and shown in the SW HQ thread today)   Obviously, Tony's heart is in Nashville - where he's definitely getting it done.  Let's hope Mr. Stark's is still in Cleveland with respect to a TMUD- enhanced Nucleus.   

 

Looks like a knockoff City of Capitals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Capitals), though I think I'd personally prefer it to the original Nucleus.

 

Or the new high rise going up in West Palm Beach FL.  I guess this is a trend at the moment.

 

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2021

Megaproject program delays may curb $2 billion of development

 

After nearly five months since Senate Bill 39 was signed into law by Gov. Mike DeWine, the so-called megaprojects tax credit it authorized still isn't a functioning program. Worse, it may not be functioning before the end of the state's current fiscal year ending June 30.

 

That would leave only two years or just half of the $400 million in authorized credits available for awarding over the program's originally intended four-year lifespan. DeWine signed the Transformational Mixed Use Development (TMUD) tax credit program into law on Dec. 29, 2020.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/04/megaproject-program-delays-may-curb-2.html

Naturally

Maybe we can each chip in a few bucks and buy OTCA some redbull to get this thing done! 💸💸💸

 

I'm still cautiously optimistic about NuCLEus getting a credit in spite of this article. OTCA is going to be working hard to get the program together in time for applications by June 30, and even if they miss that deadline the hard work should mean the program is ready shortly after. The disappointing thing would just be if the prior year credits evaporate into thin air... That will hurt someone, even if NuCLEus still gets a FY 21-22 credit anyway.

I am so sick of the unenlightened, clueless and general incompetence of Ohip leaders.

 

Our movers and shakers can't seem to do either. This must be what happens when our best and brightest seek out climes more conducive to getting things done. Leaving us with the dolts. I'm still here so l guess l'll have to lump myself in with the rest of the laggards. Except l'm not a politician nor a developer. 

This is so frustrating! When we are on the verge of doing something forward-thinking for our state's urban centers it seems we are about to at least partially screw it up. This program is so vital to helping jump start the anemic growth we still suffer. Our "leaders" will work with lightning speed when it comes to those wedge issues we are all too familiar with, but something that could be really great.....we drag our heels and waste time. Forgive me for running off topic...I had to rant. 

A bunch of calls to Ohio’s legislators couldn’t  hurt.  If the Bill doesn’t get done, people need to be unelected. 

Article updated with bad news (confirmation that the program won't start issuing tax credits until state fiscal year 2022) and good news (the legislature is considering extending the program)....

 

 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2021

Megaproject program delays may curb $2 billion of development

 

After nearly five months since Senate Bill 39 was signed into law by Gov. Mike DeWine, the so-called megaprojects tax credit it authorized still isn't a functioning program. Worse, it may not be functioning before the end of the state's current fiscal year ending June 30.

 

That would leave only two years or just half of the $400 million in authorized credits available for awarding over the program's originally intended four-year lifespan. DeWine signed the Transformational Mixed Use Development (TMUD) tax credit program into law on Dec. 29, 2020.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/04/megaproject-program-delays-may-curb-2.html

 

Does the Fiscal year 2022 start July 1 2021 and end June 30 2022.  OR Am i wrong on this.

Yes, the state FY22 starts July 1, 2021.

this project is dead.  It aint happening.  It didn't pencil before Covid and it doesn't now regardless of new incentives or subsidy.  There's zero demand for new office in Cleveland and the housing portion is not enough to justify the increased construction costs.  It's dead.

^ Well, with that ray of sunshine, I guess the moderators should just delete this thread.

2 hours ago, gottaplan said:

this project is dead.  It aint happening.  It didn't pencil before Covid and it doesn't now regardless of new incentives or subsidy.  There's zero demand for new office in Cleveland and the housing portion is not enough to justify the increased construction costs.  It's dead.

If you’ve been keeping up with the thread, you’ll recall that @KJPmentioned he’d been told recently that construction could start today on the 20+ floor version as all of the financing is in place, but that Stark is waiting to see if he can get the TMUD credits to pursue a version of the original taller building. So....not dead. 

If it’s not dead, it’s definitely on life support. Yes, theoretically the financing is in place for option C (or D, it’s hard to keep up with all the permutations), but as this is a Stark project, I’ll believe it when I see it.

 

Benesch has been waiting way more patiently than I ever thought they would, but that patience is gonna run out eventually.

5 hours ago, gottaplan said:

this project is dead.  It aint happening.  It didn't pencil before Covid and it doesn't now regardless of new incentives or subsidy.  There's zero demand for new office in Cleveland and the housing portion is not enough to justify the increased construction costs.  It's dead.

 

That's disappointing to hear. You should tell that to Sherwin-Williams, CrossCountry Mortgage, Rocket Mortgage, CBIZ, Benesch, Cleveland-Cliffs, FM Global, iHeart Media, Goldwater Bank, McDonald Hopkins, Fathom and probably others I'm overlooking who are INCREASING their downtown Cleveland office presence by a net 800,000 square feet. 

 

In my March article "Seven proposed office towers in Cleveland? Yep, seven", I mentioned Benesch and nuCLEus. I don't think Benesch considers nuCLEus dead or Benesch wouldn't have highlighted that article on its website:

 

https://www.beneschlaw.com/resources/benesch-mentioned-in-neotrans-or-seven-proposed-office-towers-in-cleveland-yep-seven.html

 

whatever Ken.  I know several of those firms are not growing and are quietly trying to sublease a large portion of their space.  Anyhow, it ain't happening.  The construction & subsequent rents are too high, their aren't enough tenants in the market and it just doesn't work.  

2 hours ago, gottaplan said:

whatever Ken.  I know several of those firms are not growing and are quietly trying to sublease a large portion of their space.  Anyhow, it ain't happening.  The construction & subsequent rents are too high, their aren't enough tenants in the market and it just doesn't work.  

I want everybody to remember these posts when it gets built. Don’t let them run away from it. When it gets built, you need to “keep that same energy” as the kids say 

They paid big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the lot. They will build!!!!

 

I don't have any inside info. But, my gut feeling is that the wait will be worth it!

15 hours ago, gottaplan said:

whatever Ken.  I know several of those firms are not growing and are quietly trying to sublease a large portion of their space.  Anyhow, it ain't happening.  The construction & subsequent rents are too high, their aren't enough tenants in the market and it just doesn't work.  

 

Yeah, I just write articles about things before anyone else and then they usually happen. You, on the other hand, should write a blog and put your name on it. Here's a suggested title....

Legislative fix likely for new state tax credit for ‘transformational' projects

 

With $100 million in much-anticipated tax credits set to evaporate on June 30, state lawmakers are exploring ways to preserve the incentives for challenging real estate deals.

 

The Ohio Development Services Agencyhas been working to roll out a new tax credit program for so-called “transformational” mixed-use projects, which won legislative approval in late 2020. Developers are watching the bureaucratic process with bated breath.

 

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/legislative-fix-likely-new-state-tax-credit-program-transformational-projects

Edited May 2, 20214 yr by Clefan98

^Can somebody with a Crain's account summarize?  It would be much appreciated.

54 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

^Can somebody with a Crain's account summarize?  It would be much appreciated.

 

It doesn't have anything substance-wise that wasn't in my article from last week. In fact, it has the exact same quote from Ohio Development Services Agency spokesman Todd Walker as my article. But it does have a few more quotes from developers and organizations like NAIOP. 

it still won't get built.  There's not enough tenants for the office.  The construction costs are too high.  KJP you should write an article on the ACTUAL amount of vacancy in downtown cleveland office buildings.  Include what's actually vacant and what is "shadow space" which is technically under lease but will never be occupied and is quietly being marketed for sublease but will never happen.  It's staggering.  We already have a completely empty office building right at the corner of 9th & Lakeside.  It's been empty for a year.  Office buildings all over are struggling.  It's not going to get better.  Most major firms are planning to reduce square footage.  Put that in your blog

3 minutes ago, gottaplan said:

it still won't get built.  There's not enough tenants for the office.  The construction costs are too high.  KJP you should write an article on the ACTUAL amount of vacancy in downtown cleveland office buildings.  Include what's actually vacant and what is "shadow space" which is technically under lease but will never be occupied and is quietly being marketed for sublease but will never happen.  It's staggering.  We already have a completely empty office building right at the corner of 9th & Lakeside.  It's been empty for a year.  Office buildings all over are struggling.  It's not going to get better.  Most major firms are planning to reduce square footage.  Put that in your blog

But there aren’t as many clicks with that.

3 minutes ago, willyboy said:

But there aren’t as many clicks with that.

Look I get it new buildings are exciting, much more so than parking lots.  Just being realistic here on whether or not this thing happens.  It couldn't get across the line before covid and I don't think the financials got any better regardless of what's happening in state legislature to increase incentives...  shell out more for a building that doesn't make sense while we have existing buildings that can hardly afford to keep the lights on (literally)

12 minutes ago, gottaplan said:

Look I get it new buildings are exciting, much more so than parking lots.  Just being realistic here on whether or not this thing happens.  It couldn't get across the line before covid and I don't think the financials got any better regardless of what's happening in state legislature to increase incentives...  shell out more for a building that doesn't make sense while we have existing buildings that can hardly afford to keep the lights on (literally)

 

On the whole, I agree with you... but I think we all know and understand your position quite clearly at this point in the thread... 

26 minutes ago, gottaplan said:

it still won't get built.  There's not enough tenants for the office.  The construction costs are too high.  KJP you should write an article on the ACTUAL amount of vacancy in downtown cleveland office buildings.  Include what's actually vacant and what is "shadow space" which is technically under lease but will never be occupied and is quietly being marketed for sublease but will never happen.  It's staggering.  We already have a completely empty office building right at the corner of 9th & Lakeside.  It's been empty for a year.  Office buildings all over are struggling.  It's not going to get better.  Most major firms are planning to reduce square footage.  Put that in your blog

 

Why don't you write a blog and put your name on it? Then, see if what you write about comes to pass as often as it does with what I write about. Even for the stuff that doesn't succeed, it's not made-up sh!t. It's because someone is trying to do something positive in this city and it's worth a story. If Stark doesn't succeed at Prospect and East 4th, someone else will. Who cares if it's office or apartments or a co-working space or a tiddlewink factory? You seem to have a burr up your butt about Stark. If you are/were a tenant of Stark's, I can understand why but that's not relevant for an article about a new-construction project.

 

Yes, of course office demand is down with some firms but it is up with others and they want their own space that's contiguous within the same building. Many other office users are moving downtown, some of whom I haven't written about yet. If you aren't aware of that, then you are picking and choosing your realities.

I think it’s straight up trash to act like @KJPis a click chaser. That’s garbage. He’s broken enough big news around here to earn some damn respect and the benefit of the doubt. No one is perfect, but KJP has built capital around here because he’s been right more often than not. So either start your own outlet or stop whining. I don’t know KJP personally, but I’m not gonna let y’all just insult his credibility like that. Stop it

41 minutes ago, gottaplan said:

  Most major firms are planning to reduce square footage.  Put that in your blog

 

Which major firms are you referring to?