Just now, Clefan98 said:

 

Which major firms are you referring to?

 

I work for one of the three largest in Cleveland and we're considering adding space due to hiring. 

29 minutes ago, KJP said:

office or apartments or a co-working space or a tiddlewink factory? 

You mention Tiddlewinks, but I always thought the newer rendition of Nucleus closer resembled Connect 4. 🤪

 

On a more serious note, I am just as excited about the potential addition and reactivation of the Herold building. 

In one of  @KJP's article on the subject, it lists the potential size of the building at 60,000 square feet, which would be a great size for one of these companies shifting around the area who wants their name on a building. 🤔

I've heard that Deloitte just downsized by a whole floor in Key tower.

AECOM just gave back a floor in their own building.  E&Y continues to give back space in their own building.  Cleveland Cliffs has a full floor available of their own space....  more & more coming as leases come due.  We're barely seeing the tip of the iceberg in downsizing.  The Oswald building, 1100 Superior has some real hurdles with tenants downsizing there.  Building owners can't react fast enough.  And that's just downtown.  The suburban market is even worse

26 minutes ago, gottaplan said:

 We're barely seeing the tip of the iceberg in downsizing. 

 

Obviously there is downsizing (and other firms are growing their downtown presence at the same time, i.e. CrossCountry or the 700+ new Rocket Mortgage hires).

 

But why would you think this is the tip of the iceberg? The pandemic is 14 months old now. Every company that can possibly experiment with remote work has done so for a long time. I work in a building out in the suburbs that was basically decimated by the pandemic. Almost nobody left in the building. Some folks broke lease and are never going back to any office again. But the office occupancy in my building is higher now than it was at the end of 2020. The people who will do remote work forever are doing it right now, while a lot of the firms that are going to go back to the office haven't fully done so yet.

 

EDIT: Here's a loopnet article for some actual data. https://www.loopnet.com/learn/office-tenants-mostly-holding-on-to-existing-space-into-2021/1108175990/

Edited May 3, 20214 yr by LlamaLawyer

^Experimenting with remote work is one thing, reorganizing space and putting unneeded portions on the sublease market is another, slower thing.

 

Even before COVID, the downtown office market was extremely weak. The only way office projects work in CLE is through musical chairs and deep public subsidies. But if there are enough musical chair players signing on and enough deep subsidies, still seems possible a big office project is possible. Whether that should really be the goal of public policy is a good question, but my very parochial view is that filling parking lots and crashing the market for lightly used Class B/C buildings, which makes residential conversion more viable, is probably a good thing. Especially if some of the deep subsidy is coming from the state coffers. 

for the record my spouse's company is huge and they are consolidating and leaving their main midtown office building for their smaller downtown building, which is being renovated for covid. they have offices all over the world, including in cleveland on euclid. they are not closing any of those satellite offices. just out of curiosity and given covid i had even asked awhile ago, like last summer, about cle, and i was told they are bullish about it. so that's a little good something. its only going to get better as things open back up and it is especially a great time for seeking class A office space and consolidation, so demand for new construction will rise. i know office workforces may be cut back for awhile with work from home a new norm, but i no reason not to be positive about it. its more likely old commerical spaces will be transformed into residential or something else. who knows, but anyway thats my 2 cents.

 

also, to bring it back on topic, stark's downtown brooklyn office bldg groundfloor retail spaces are all back up and running as far as i have seen lately, so that money is coming in for him. i dk what will become of his los angeles parking lot or whatever that was he bought around the same time out there, but el lay is booming for new urban style apt buildings, so likely that gets developed too.

Coming from having no experience in commercial real estate or any insider information, my own expectation from the covid shakeup is that we will see a downsizing in total office space. But I think the office space left will be consolidated into the most valuable, most desirable buildings and areas. I think we are see that even now. Yes, current downtown tenants are downsizing their space, but they're not abandoning the city center altogether. We are also still seeing firms move into downtown from the suburbs. Maybe they won't take as much office space as they had, but they're filling the space the current downtown firms are leaving. The weaker suburban markets are going to take the brunt of the damage from shrinking offices. I think this (if it turns out to be true) bodes well for Stark and Nucleus having an office component. Companies are going to want their (shrunken) offices to show the best, and for some that's going to come from a new build space downtown.

Slide 8 from the Downtown Cleveland Alliance's 2020 Annual Report shows that Class A occupancy dropped by 0.2% from 87.3% to 87.1% year-over-year, but overall occupancy increased from 80% to 81.1%. Not sure what the "natural" vacancy rate is, but I can't imagine its too much lower than ~20%. 

 

I get that this may be a lagging indicator as Company's are subleasing or may just wait to not renew their current leases instead of break them, but everything else I've seen here has been anecdotal at best. 

 

https://www.downtowncleveland.com/DCA/media/DCA_Media/2020-DCA-Annual-Report-1-1_3.pdf

10 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

I work for one of the three largest in Cleveland and we're considering adding space due to hiring. 

Hmm.  Is it SW?  Or Progressive?  Because Progressive is reducing square footage.  Technically so is SW by consolidating locations under 1 roof for R&D

Edited May 4, 20214 yr by gottaplan

Viewing all this Nucleus in a slightly different lens, the last office building in Cleveland was Flats East Bank, built in 2013.  It's struggling to stay afloat, has been refi'd multiple times in last 3 years and needed a major TIF extension recently also.  In that building with all the incentives and subsidy, rents are still well over $30/sf.  Say $35 depending on where you are in the building and how much SF you have.  Key Tower has rents in same range for arguments sake.  The last other office building to take a swing was the office phase of "INTRO" in Ohio City.  That building would've required rents close to $40/sf to make it work.  They never even got close to getting someone to sign on and that would've been an awesome location, right by the market, walkable, transit stop right there, great bars & restaurants nearby....

 

So someone tell me again what rents Stark needs to make a go of the office space in Nucleus?  

I work in the industry, and the buzz is that the days of completely open office layouts and high density benching are on the way out. Companies loved it because it cut down the $ Sq Ft per employee from the days of the old cubicles and they could "Pack em In".

 

However, workers generally hate it and Covid just magnified the flaws of it. I'm not saying we will go back to large cubicles, but there will be more sq ft, privacy features and ergonomic features like height adjustable desks in the future design of offices for those returning to work in offices. Also, more floor space will be devoted to collaboration and work/lounge areas scattered all over. So the trend would be less people per floor, which might equate to companies needing more space.

9 hours ago, metrocity said:

Also, more floor space will be devoted to collaboration and work/lounge areas scattered all over. So the trend would be less people per floor, which might equate to companies needing more space.

on some levels you are right, but you can't add new buildings with hundreds of thousands of SF of new office without adding significant new tenants.  Cleveland office market is still a shell game.  Some are poached from the suburbs occasionally (Cross Country Mortgage) while others leave the City for the suburbs.  

I don’t give a DAMN how many companies the city poaches from the suburbs. They’ve been doing it to us for years. Unlike some around here I didn’t grow up in the suburbs and moved to Cleveland later in life. I’m a born and raised clevelander and I saw what they did. I saw the flight, the decay. And I remember how they would steal from us and brag about it. So forgive me if I don’t shed a single tear about the city taking businesses back now that the city is hot again. I don’t give a DAMN

12 hours ago, gottaplan said:

Viewing all this Nucleus in a slightly different lens, the last office building in Cleveland was Flats East Bank, built in 2013.  It's struggling to stay afloat, has been refi'd multiple times in last 3 years and needed a major TIF extension recently also.  In that building with all the incentives and subsidy, rents are still well over $30/sf.  Say $35 depending on where you are in the building and how much SF you have.  Key Tower has rents in same range for arguments sake.  The last other office building to take a swing was the office phase of "INTRO" in Ohio City.  That building would've required rents close to $40/sf to make it work.  They never even got close to getting someone to sign on and that would've been an awesome location, right by the market, walkable, transit stop right there, great bars & restaurants nearby....

 

So someone tell me again what rents Stark needs to make a go of the office space in Nucleus?  

 

Ah, now I see what ails you -- a presumption of having facts but based on faulty information. The Ernst & Young office tower is not the reason for the Flats' financial shortcomings. According to JLL's 2020 Cleveland Skyline report, E&Y Tower was 97 percent leased (that was before Matthews Real Estate Investment Services expanded their office space there at the start of this year). The building has average rents of $25 per square foot -- the third highest across an entire building in downtown Cleveland. Only Key Tower ($32) and 200 Public Square ($29.50) were higher.

 

Flats East Bank' financial shortcomings came from three things:

1. Fitch Ratings issued a Fitch's Loans of Concern (FLOC) notice in late 2019 for the 150-key Aloft Cleveland Downtown which was no longer able to cover the debt service on its $27 million loan. Ironically, the pandemic actually may have helped the hotel. The county paid to use it as a homeless shelter ensuring nearly full occupancy for a full year and the hotel/FEB likely received CARES Act business assistance to cover whatever the county did not. The long-term financial viability of this hotel is definitely a question mark.

2. The main Flats parking garage is owned by the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority and should have been classified as tax-exempt property. It wasn't, and the developer made tax payments while it negotiated with the port and the city to get that property exempted, as it should have been.

3. FEB isn't big enough. It needs more residential and co-working spaces to become a true neighborhood. As you learned first and free from reading my blog, that next phase is very active.

 

It's not true that INTRO never got close to landing an office tenant. They have sought many of those that were on the move or expanding, but none wanted to wait two years for the office building to be permitted and built. INTRO would have been able to land office tenants if it could have gotten the state financing/tax exemption it sought but the city wanted to be the only entity that could award tax abatement.  So all of the moving/expanding office tenants went downtown or expanded in place. Only one meaningful downtown tenant in the past year or so has departed for the suburbs -- MAI Capital Management.

 

You are way over-simplifying things and looking at the market through an outdated lens. Yes, some companies are moving around without expanding. Others are expanding and needing more office space to grow -- ie: CrossCountry which is EXPANDING and needs to be downtown to attract that growth-inducing talent. Others are shrinking to test out this remote working fad. And still other developers are adding significant co-working spaces to their residential developments. All of these conditions are true only when the others are mentioned. Using only one of them as a blanket description of the market is lazily false.

 

The old paradigm of "this is an office building" and "this is a residential building" may no longer be valid especially in an urban context. We are seeing more of these projects nationally with 45 Erieview and FEB Phase 3b being the first major developments in Cleveland to take that approach. Interestingly several potential office tenants are in conversation with the buyers to locate at 45 Erieview as an anchor tenant(s). And, from what I'm hearing, nuCLEus will pursue this mix as well, offering a mix of residential, co-working, office and yes, Stark's beloved retail.

 

So let's just see what happens next. I guarantee only one thing -- it's going to be interesting.

 

35 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

The building has average rents of $25 per square foot -- the third highest across an entire building in downtown Cleveland. Only Key Tower ($32) and 200 Public Square ($29.50) were higher.

 

 

Yikes, pointing out that rents in the newest downtown office building are even lower than @gottaplanclaimed doesn't really bolster the case IMHO.  $25 psf is pathetic.  Cleveland has some of the lowest office rents of any major metro in the country, despite adding very little new supply and constantly taking older buildings offline. You can subsidize your way to anything, but there is really no evidence of any market pressure that would otherwise justify any kind of office construction.  Firms can say they want new build space but how much are they really willing to pay for it given how cheaply they can get space elsewhere?  How much is the public willing to chip in?  Those seem like the key factors.

Edited May 4, 20214 yr by StapHanger

43 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Ah, now I see what ails you -- a presumption of having facts but based on faulty information. The Ernst & Young office tower is not the reason for the Flats' financial shortcomings. According to JLL's 2020 Cleveland Skyline report, E&Y Tower was 97 percent leased (that was before Matthews Real Estate Investment Services expanded their office space there at the start of this year). The building has average rents of $25 per square foot -- the third highest across an entire building in downtown Cleveland. Only Key Tower ($32) and 200 Public Square ($29.50) were higher.

 

Flats East Bank' financial shortcomings came from three things:

1. Fitch Ratings issued a Fitch's Loans of Concern (FLOC) notice in late 2019 for the 150-key Aloft Cleveland Downtown which was no longer able to cover the debt service on its $27 million loan. Ironically, the pandemic actually may have helped the hotel. The county paid to use it as a homeless shelter ensuring nearly full occupancy for a full year and the hotel/FEB likely received CARES Act business assistance to cover whatever the county did not. The long-term financial viability of this hotel is definitely a question mark.

2. The main Flats parking garage is owned by the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority and should have been classified as tax-exempt property. It wasn't, and the developer made tax payments while it negotiated with the port and the city to get that property exempted, as it should have been.

3. FEB isn't big enough. It needs more residential and co-working spaces to become a true neighborhood. As you learned first and free from reading my blog, that next phase is very active.

 

It's not true that INTRO never got close to landing an office tenant. They have sought many of those that were on the move or expanding, but none wanted to wait two years for the office building to be permitted and built. INTRO would have been able to land office tenants if it could have gotten the state financing/tax exemption it sought but the city wanted to be the only entity that could award tax abatement.  So all of the moving/expanding office tenants went downtown or expanded in place. Only one meaningful downtown tenant in the past year or so has departed for the suburbs -- MAI Capital Management.

 

You are way over-simplifying things and looking at the market through an outdated lens. Yes, some companies are moving around without expanding. Others are expanding and needing more office space to grow -- ie: CrossCountry which is EXPANDING and needs to be downtown to attract that growth-inducing talent. Others are shrinking to test out this remote working fad. And still other developers are adding significant co-working spaces to their residential developments. All of these conditions are true only when the others are mentioned. Using only one of them as a blanket description of the market is lazily false.

 

The old paradigm of "this is an office building" and "this is a residential building" may no longer be valid especially in an urban context. We are seeing more of these projects nationally with 45 Erieview and FEB Phase 3b being the first major developments in Cleveland to take that approach. Interestingly several potential office tenants are in conversation with the buyers to locate at 45 Erieview as an anchor tenant(s). And, from what I'm hearing, nuCLEus will pursue this mix as well, offering a mix of residential, co-working, office and yes, Stark's beloved retail.

 

So let's just see what happens next. I guarantee only one thing -- it's going to be interesting.

 

Can’t let pesky things like facts get in the way of a good “woe is Cleveland” narrative

and lets not forget, like everyone else, stark’s wallet is recovering and rebounding from the whack it took last year with things like retail opening up more and more.

 

also, there is a very gung ho and positive business attitude about covid recovery in general. that shouldn’t be discounted. there has been no better time in quite awhile to build, renovate and make moves than right now. people are literally chomping at the bit to get out there do stuff and make things happen. this summer is going to be like the roaring 20s socially at least, so it would be business-wise to take advantage.

26 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

there has been no better time in quite awhile to build, renovate and make moves than right now. people are literally chomping at the bit to get out there do stuff and make things happen. this summer is going to be like the roaring 20s socially at least, so it would be business-wise to take advantage.

I dont know about that.  Have you seen the costs of steel?  https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WPU101707    Projects are literally being cancelled or delayed every day now because of this.  Not to mention skyrocketing lumber costs, used for shoring, framing, safety railing, etc.  And glass shortages.  Yeah, it's really not a great time to be kicking off a project, large or small

And the cost for all petroleum based products will be skyrocketing.    Get ready for some serious inflation.

^ right, thats why there is no sw, intro, city club, etc. in the works or happening.

 

but really i meant it more in terms of stark being able to get partners to get things going on a mixed use nucleus of some type.

Topic for a different thread, but skyrocketing materials costs may finally be what it takes for this country to build more efficiently

1 hour ago, StapHanger said:

 

Yikes, pointing out that rents in the newest downtown office building are even lower than @gottaplanclaimed doesn't really bolster the case IMHO.  $25 psf is pathetic.  Cleveland has some of the lowest office rents of any major metro in the country, despite adding very little new supply and constantly taking older buildings offline. You can subsidize your way to anything, but there is really no evidence of any market pressure that would otherwise justify any kind of office construction.  Firms can say they want new build space but how much are they really willing to pay for it given how cheaply they can get space elsewhere?  How much is the public willing to chip in?  Those seem like the key factors.

 

I guess you missed the part where I mentioned that that the FEB office isn't a financial stress point for FEB. It has never shown up in a loans of concern notice -- even with the $25 psf number. I guess if you want to make a point, you can tilt the data in whatever way you like.

 

All office inventory is subsidized. In the suburbs, it's subsidized with underpriced highway access, below-market Issue 2 loans for sewer extensions, tax abatement, local/county/state loans and grants, etc.

 

Yeah, the "only" market pressures are growing and consolidating companies that want more and higher-end office space in urban centers -- all of which is crucial to attracting young talent. That is why CrossCountry is expanding downtown. That is why Sherwin-Williams is building a larger HQ in downtown Cleveland. That is why Cliffs is consolidating in downtown rather than Hinckley.  That is why McDonald Hopkins wants its own building. And that is why Benesch continues to hold out hope for nuCLEus. It considers a new, amenities-laden office building as important to its growth strategy.

 

I can understand the debate about how best to bring more development downtown, but not whether to bring or keep it downtown. And I'm surprised some are debating the unknowable future. Just see what happens next. That's the only way we'll know for sure.

also, developers can get a tax break or something on building materials via the port authority. thats whats happening with the rockefeller bldg and helping get that done in part. 

 

also, inflation has been happening all along, its just no one talks about it. for example everyone saw the census, yet cle area home prices rise on. and new mixed use towers are going up all over the place around the country, why is cle so unique? mixed use can make nucleus work. and its always been the only thing that could make it work, so nothings changed.

21 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ right, thats why there is no sw, intro, city club, etc. in the works or happening.

 

but really i meant it more in terms of stark being able to get partners to get things going on a mixed use nucleus of some type.

not trying to beef with you.  Intro was launched before the start of the commodity escalation.  And it's timber framed.  SW may be started after prices come back down.  Or maybe it's so large it doesn't matter.  Or maybe people are gathered right this minute trying to devise a plan to counter the impact of steel price on the overall project budget.

17 minutes ago, KJP said:

And that is why Benesch continues to hold out hope for nuCLEus. It considers a new, amenities-laden office building as important to its growth strategy.

 

Maybe Benesch is holding out hope for Stark as means to leverage best deal from current landlord or others?  What is their current level of commitment?  Nonbinding LOI?  Not saying that's what's happening but it does happen all the time....

Benesch got an extension of its existing lease (same rent) which expires next year. After that, the landlord has agreed to put them on a year-to-year extension.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Yeah, the "only" market pressures are growing and consolidating companies that want more and higher-end office space in urban centers -- all of which is crucial to attracting young talent. That is why CrossCountry is expanding downtown. That is why Sherwin-Williams is building a larger HQ in downtown Cleveland. That is why Cliffs is consolidating in downtown rather than Hinckley.  That is why McDonald Hopkins wants its own building. And that is why Benesch continues to hold out hope for nuCLEus. It considers a new, amenities-laden office building as important to its growth strategy.

 

I can understand the debate about how best to bring more development downtown, but not whether to bring or keep it downtown. And I'm surprised some are debating the unknowable future. Just see what happens next. That's the only way we'll know for sure.

 

Sure, I get that, and agree it all matters. All comes down to whether these companies want it enough to pay the very high premium for a new tower over existing space, or even over a more modest purpose built HQ project.  Multi-tenant tower projects from third party developers and investors are just a different species of project from the Calfee, CrossCountry and SW HQ type projects.

 

I hope to be blown away by cranes in the air in the coming years.  Would be hugely beneficial to the region to see some re-consolidation of employment downtown. 

Edited May 4, 20214 yr by StapHanger

And the last page or so has been about whether nuCLEus is dead or not. My information is that, right now on May 4, 2021, Stark still has every intention of pursuing it. Stark has other projects going on around the country, so nuCLEus isn't even the firm's highest priority. Stark is waiting to see if nuCLEus gets a TMUD credit to decide whether he enlarges the project, keeps it at the same scale, and/or retains the mix of uses or alters it. If something happens and Stark decides to walk away from the project, then it's dead.

 

EDIT: And @StapHanger I agree that multi-tenant (more than four tenants) office buildings are off anyone's agenda in Cleveland for the foreseeable future, which for me means about 6-12 months. My understanding is that Stark isn't planning a pure office tower anymore. The latest version would have a few large office tenants (Benesch, Stark and *maybe* one more tenant or just leave some extra space for future growth), residential and co-working space over ground-floor retail/restaurants.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

And the last page or so has been about whether nuCLEus is dead or not. My information is that, right now on May 4, 2021, Stark still has every intention of pursuing it. Stark has other projects going on around the country, so nuCLEus isn't even the firm's highest priority. Stark is waiting to see if nuCLEus gets a TMUD credit to decide whether he enlarges the project, keeps it at the same scale, and/or retains the mix of uses or alters it. If something happens and Stark decides to walk away from the project, then it's dead.

 

EDIT: And @StapHanger I agree that multi-tenant (more than four tenants) office buildings are off anyone's agenda in Cleveland for the foreseeable future, which for me means about 6-12 months. My understanding is that Stark isn't planning a pure office tower anymore. The latest version would have a few large office tenants (Benesch, Stark and *maybe* one more tenant or just leave some extra space for future growth), residential and co-working space over ground-floor retail/restaurants.

That's all good info Ken, and thanks for sharing.  I guess I don't see how a smaller project is more feasible though.  You still have the development costs, acquisition & demo costs...  plus the amenities of the building like a fitness area, conference rooms, retail/restaurants, are typically subsidized by the rents of the office.  A smaller office footprint makes all this harder/more expensive.  But as you said earlier, we'll all wait & see.

Stark simply doesn't know the scale of the project yet. And the acquisition costs are sunk costs. Interestingly, the longer this takes, the larger Benesch's space needs have become (and Stark's). Benesch started out needing 60k+ and now needs triple the space. Stark's former HQ was 18k and the last I'd heard, Stark filled 26k sf at their current offices building (which, BTW, is now converting two floors to apartments).

 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

Stark simply doesn't know the scale of the project yet. And the acquisition costs are sunk costs. Interestingly, the longer this takes, the larger Benesch's space needs have become (and Stark's). Benesch started out needing 60k+ and now needs triple the space. Stark's former HQ was 18k and the last I'd heard, Stark filled 26k sf at their current offices building (which, BTW, is now converting two floors to apartments).

 

Do you still understand they intend to start this year? If so, that would rule NuCLEus out for a TMUD since the program won’t be running until 2022, right?

13 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Do you still understand they intend to start this year? If so, that would rule NuCLEus out for a TMUD since the program won’t be running until 2022, right?

 

The state fiscal year starts on July 1. Even so, the Ohio Development Services Agency spokesman told me "We expect the program will launch in the first quarter of fiscal year 2022." That means sometime in July-August-September.

 

That is months later than anyone expected. My understanding two months ago was that Stark would start nuCLEus at the end of this year once they learned if they received a TMUD certificate (smaller project without TMUD; bigger project with TMUD). Now they're looking at early-middle next year. 

22 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

The state fiscal year starts on July 1. Even so, the Ohio Development Services Agency spokesman told me "We expect the program will launch in the first quarter of fiscal year 2022." That means sometime in July-August-September.

 

That is months later than anyone expected. My understanding two months ago was that Stark would start nuCLEus at the end of this year once they learned if they received a TMUD certificate (smaller project without TMUD; bigger project with TMUD). Now they're looking at early-middle next year. 

Thanks, I totally misread that part of the article.

 

My optimism is back then! I know Stark isn't guaranteed a TMUD credit, but he's got to have a leg up on any competitors. And there's enough money that two big projects can get a TMUD next year, so unless NuCLEus gets beat out by TWO other projects, Stark oughta get one.

15 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Thanks, I totally misread that part of the article.

 

My optimism is back then! I know Stark isn't guaranteed a TMUD credit, but he's got to have a leg up on any competitors. And there's enough money that two big projects can get a TMUD next year, so unless NuCLEus gets beat out by TWO other projects, Stark oughta get one.

 

Tell that to the Carney Family. They came up with the idea for the catalytic historic tax credit to aid their May Company redevelopment. Then every other historic redevelopment got the tax credit except the one it was designed to benefit. Carney ultimately had to walk away from the project and sell the property. And it required a special piece of legislation to extend the program for just one more catalytic historic tax credit so that May's new owner, Bedrock Real Estate, could carry out the renovation project.

 

Doomer reaction: "See, Stark isn't guaranteed anything and nuCLEus could fade away if the numbers don't pencil for this project without TMUD."

Hopeful reaction: "Even if Stark doesn't build on the lots between Huron-Prospect-East 4th, someone will someday because it's a good location."

23 hours ago, gottaplan said:

not trying to beef with you.  Intro was launched before the start of the commodity escalation.  And it's timber framed.  SW may be started after prices come back down.  Or maybe it's so large it doesn't matter.  Or maybe people are gathered right this minute trying to devise a plan to counter the impact of steel price on the overall project budget.

 

 

i never expected nucleus to start before sw or city club for that matter. however, seems like it could go at the same time if the state acts on the tmud incentive this summer or fall, wouldn't that be nice? also, i tell ya post covid people are chomping at the bit to act, so maybe stark picks up a new investement partner or three. wouldn't hurt -- if they all can get along and get'r done.

 

we might get a small clue by watching stark's los angeles purchase. i think that was for a parcel with a car wash on it or something. no idea, but i would guess that will be residential. if he starts to do anything with developing that property first (or any others he may have?) nucleus is probably a ways off.

 

 

MONDAY, JUNE 28, 2021

Megaprojects tax credit doubles in size, duration

 

Extension of a new tax credit program intended to boost major real estate developments primarily in Ohio's largest cities was included in the biennial budget bill passed by state lawmakers tonight.

 

The provision was included in a two-year, $74 billion state budget bill hashed out by a six-person conference committee comprised of four Republicans and two Democrats. Both the Ohio Senate and the Ohio House of Representatives passed House Bill 110 by significant, bipartisan margins.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/06/megaprojects-tax-credit-doubles-in-size.html

 

13 hours ago, KJP said:

 

MONDAY, JUNE 28, 2021

Megaprojects tax credit doubles in size, duration

 

Extension of a new tax credit program intended to boost major real estate developments primarily in Ohio's largest cities was included in the biennial budget bill passed by state lawmakers tonight.

 

The provision was included in a two-year, $74 billion state budget bill hashed out by a six-person conference committee comprised of four Republicans and two Democrats. Both the Ohio Senate and the Ohio House of Representatives passed House Bill 110 by significant, bipartisan margins.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/06/megaprojects-tax-credit-doubles-in-size.html

 

 

Updated the article with a quote from Senator Schuring.

well how 'bout them apples?

 

great summer news!

28 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

Does anyone know if the originally planned Nucleus building is going to be built or any updates as to what's going on with it? Thanks!

 

@jbee1982 Look for a TMUD application from Stark soon. It will reveal all. I'm told they will try for a bigger project and, if they don't get the TMUD (or not enough), look for a smaller project from them.

welp if we want to keep an eye on what tony stark enterprises is up to i have a bit of intel. just got back from los angeles where we stayed in an airbnb for a bit near the mikey’s car wash property stark bought out there.

 

if you know old el lay its in west hollywood in quite a hopping spot along la cienega between wilshire & beverly — just above the beverly center.

 

it looks like a big enough plot to be buildable now, but i dk if stark is trying to grab up other properties or what, but it is very ripe for development that is for sure, so to be kept an eye on.

 

Mikey's Car Wash
https://goo.gl/maps/itVvmWBuiu6xHPYs9

 

btw — we had a great time, but the homeless problem out there is just disgraceful, worst i have ever seen it. no problems for us or anything, but just so sad to see. ugh.

^ Thanks for the intel! 

 

p.s. San Diego is the same, I live surrounded by homeless encampments and it's very sad. There is no serious plan to do anything about it either. 

Anybody have any news on Stark Nucleus in Cleveland

47 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Anybody have any news on Stark Nucleus in Cleveland

 

no, sorry. i mean other than speculation that if stark starts development on his l.a. car wash or one of his other properties first, than it would seem to further delay nucleus. so his known far flung holdings are worth keeping a close eye on. he is not a big enough player to handle multiple major developments at once. i wish it was direct nucleus news!

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

Anybody have any news on Stark Nucleus in Cleveland

 

As noted before, there will not be any news on nuCLEus until administrators of the new TMUD program begin accepting applications. The Ohio Tax Credit Authority hasn't begun accepting applications. They hoped to start by the end of September. But I just asked a source about it today and he hasn't heard any updates on a notice being issued by the state anytime soon. So until you see a release from the state on what applications have been received, it's not necessary to ask for further updates.

This is posted in Ohio Business and Economy as well.  Will this have any impact on the HQ?  Might they need more space here or will these operation be strictly in Europe?  https://www.coatingsworld.com/contents/view_breaking-news/2021-08-20/sika-to-divest-european-industrial-coatings-business-to-sherwin-williams/

 

I say it every 6 months or so and I'll say it again, this deal isn't happening.  They keep shuffling the deck on makeup of office/retail/apartments, etc....  scrambling for more incentives, trying to get new legislation passed....  they don't have it.  Time is not on their side.  Construction isn't getting cheaper the longer they wait.  The added incentives are barely going to offset increased material costs.  The new SW tower is going to be the new big draw and the other existing "Class A" towers will get down & dirty to win or keep Benesch.  It's already happening.

43 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

This is posted in Ohio Business and Economy as well.  Will this have any impact on the HQ?  Might they need more space here or will these operation be strictly in Europe?  https://www.coatingsworld.com/contents/view_breaking-news/2021-08-20/sika-to-divest-european-industrial-coatings-business-to-sherwin-williams/

 

Did you intend for this to be placed in the nuCLEus thread?