October 6, 20213 yr 7 minutes ago, KJP said: Stark confirms nuCLEus project is ‘on hold’ By Ken Prendergast / October 6, 2021 A Stark Enterprises executive has confirmed the firm’s dramatic and ambitious nuCLEus development planned for downtown Cleveland is on hold. The project was originally proposed in 2014 as a multi-structure, 2-million-square-foot, mixed-use development marked by a 54-story tower. Since, nuCLEus was shrunk twice to a single 24-story office tower atop a pedestal of parking and retail as Stark searched for a public subsidy to overcome Cleveland’s high construction costs and low rents. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2021/10/06/stark-confirms-nucleus-project-is-on-hold/ In other words, water is still wet.
October 6, 20213 yr if this remains on hold, which other stark project is moving forward? watch those other properties!
October 6, 20213 yr I think @KJP should have gone with the title "nuCLEus project still valiantly holding on to death"...
October 6, 20213 yr Do we know which other Cleveland projected applied for TMUD? It looks like their odds of being selected are a little better now.
October 6, 20213 yr My take on Stark's don't blame us finger pointing comments. If you are a developer that doesn't understand the market conditions you are dealing with or cannot figure out a way to overcome them then you should not be making grand announcements about what you intend to do in the first place. Edited October 6, 20213 yr by Htsguy
October 6, 20213 yr 3 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: Do we know which other Cleveland projected applied for TMUD? It looks like their odds of being selected are a little better now. Yes, we know three of them.... https://neo-trans.blog/2021/09/23/cleveland-columbus-to-field-nearly-all-of-the-tmuds/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 6, 20213 yr “The only way to get over the hump and get a fraction of what they’re doing in Detroit is to have a catalyst,” Stark said, “There’s a necessity for public-private partnerships. Our population is not big enough.” Nucleus was supposed to be the catalyst. Stark knew very well what the population numbers were in 2014 (It's going to take quite a number of years to hit 50,000 in population downtown)- and as to public-private partnerships - the TMUD was the embodiment of that. There's a "stark difference" in tone and substance from 2014 to the present. There were opportunities for Stark to lock in tenants - Benesch, in particular, seemed very patient - but their loss was probably critical. Maybe a bigger residential component in a slightly less massive one-tower model would've been viable. Perhaps Stark's financial projections at the initial announcement of the project were overly optimistic, combined with the slowdown effects of the Pandemic and any cost overruns at The Beacon or any other project - enough to effectively kill Nucleus. The question now is - do we have a parking lot there for the next 20 years or does something else significant evolve at the Nucleus location in the short term?
October 6, 20213 yr I don’t get the Detroit reference. What is their catalyst? Isn’t Cleveland’s downtown population larger? Also correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t downtown Detroit have a lot more big name retail due to the fact that it is largely subsidized by Dan Gilbert? Don’t get me wrong I fully understand a project if this size is complex to pull off and that the market has changed. But this sounds like a lot of excuses by Stark.
October 6, 20213 yr Maybe Bedrock can get involved. It seems like they are the only developer willing and able to do anything downtown right now. Edited October 6, 20213 yr by LibertyBlvd
October 6, 20213 yr I think they're assigning too much blame to the retail component. The retail shown in renderings was never anything like the mass merchant big boxes at Steelyard. It was all Starbucks Reserve, Cleveland Live!, and smaller footprint stuff.
October 6, 20213 yr 28 minutes ago, JohnSummit said: How can it be on hold if it never started? They've spent a tremendous amount of money to date on planning and advertising and legal and land acquisition... It really is an incredible waste unfortunately Back in 2014 the retail component was less than 7% of the building (11% excluding parking). Edited October 6, 20213 yr by MrR
October 6, 20213 yr owner of the biggest and most popular mall in the region complaining that a home depot in the flats is sucking away all the urban retail. There is something i've been thinking about. Why are projects like INTRO able to get backing in Ohio City, but its so hard to develop downtown. You'd think being on e4th and right next to the arena would be similar in terms of foot traffic needed to attract tenants.
October 6, 20213 yr 3 hours ago, Htsguy said: My take on Stark's don't blame us finger pointing comments. If you are a developer that doesn't understand the market conditions you are dealing with and cannot figure out a way to overcome them then you should not be making grand announcements about what you intend to do in the first place. Stark refuses to take the blame. He has badly mis-judged the demand for what was offered. His financial position is such that he cannot get obtain investors and financing to go forward. All the "wells" that he has gone to get some sort of local government, state government and schools (like CMSD is ever going to give up money) funding sources are dry. Tenants that he did line up have grown tired of delays and excuses, so they have gone elsewhere looking for space. However, in his mind, everyone is to blame but him. The project is forever on hold. Unless he comes up with an announcement he is seeking some other pipe dream to try to extort funding, the next real news that will be that land that was going to be used for nuCLEus has been sold.
October 6, 20213 yr Cleveland needs more developers with the juice to get these large projects moving. Most of the projects around the city are from out of town developers. Three substantial projects in Ohio City/Tremont by Chicago developers, and the Artisan in University Circle has a major Chicago partner. Plus a couple other projects from Columbus developers. Meanwhile Stark is sitting on his hands. It doesn't help that our property tax system is broken, which encourages surface lots to stay undeveloped. Here is the county assessment for the surface lot Stark paid $6.5 million for. This is pretty absurd. 420 Prospect AVE Cleveland, OH 44115 Market Values ----------------------- Land Value $808,500 Building Value $13,300 Total Value $821,800 Tax Balance Summary $32,920.36 Edited October 6, 20213 yr by Mendo
October 6, 20213 yr 44 minutes ago, Whipjacka said: owner of the biggest and most popular mall in the region complaining that a home depot in the flats is sucking away all the urban retail. That statement proves that Stark doesn't understand urban retail, at least in Cleveland. I do not believe that Home Depot, Lowes or Menards would ever consider a location in Downtown Cleveland.
October 6, 20213 yr 2 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said: That statement proves that Stark doesn't understand urban retail, at least in Cleveland. I do not believe that Home Depot, Lowes or Menards would ever consider a location in Downtown Cleveland. I think Stark was referring to some of the smaller retailers there (ie: Marshall's, Old Navy, etc). "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 6, 20213 yr 14 minutes ago, KJP said: I think Stark was referring to some of the smaller retailers there (ie: Marshall's, Old Navy, etc). And the presence of those retailers in Steelyard would have minimal impact on similar type retailers downtown.
October 6, 20213 yr 10 minutes ago, Mendo said: Perhaps we just need better developers in Cleveland with juice to get things done. There are 3 substantial projects under construction in Ohio City/Tremont by Chicago developers, and the Artisan in Univercity Circle has a major Chicago partner. Plus a couple other projects from Columbus developers. It doesn't help that our property tax system is broken and encourages surface lots to stay undeveloped. Stark paid $6.5 million for the surface lot and is paying practically nothing in property taxes. How absurd is this. 420 Prospect AVE Cleveland,OH 44115 Market Values ----------------------- Land Value $808,500 Building Value $13,300 Total Value $821,800 Tax Balance Summary $32,920.36 (!!) i have been saying this all along. Yes Our downtown developers just don't have enough juice and things just don't get built here. Let's see - Years back we had the $ 25 million Ohio Catastrophic Tax Credit. Well that Catastrophic Tax Credit was written specifically for JAMES CARNEY so he could get the May Co project started off the ground. Well believe it or not he did not get awarded the credit and sold to Bedrock and they get the project started and finished WITHOUT the Subsidy and during Covid-19. Incidentally Carney lost out on the the tax credit to Centennial. So what is Centennial doing - Downsizing the original project and looking for an additional MAX TMUD. So what happens if some developer from Columbus beats them out. The Baker Building got some credits years ago and what did they do - Sold to somebody else and the new owners are still trying to figure it out. The TMUD was written specifically for Stark and guess what - he loses his main tenant and won't be applying because he has no project. The list goes on and on over the years. I hope that Kassouff won't get awarded a TMUD - because he won't get the project off the ground anyway and the credit could go to someone that will get would use it. For awhile there I thought GEIS would be a player downtown since they did The 9. but they are quite. YES, we need BEDROCK to be the CATALYST for there Tower City project.
October 6, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, Mendo said: Cleveland needs more developers with the juice to get these large projects moving. Most of the projects around the city are from out of town developers. Three substantial projects in Ohio City/Tremont by Chicago developers, and the Artisan in University Circle has a major Chicago partner. Plus a couple other projects from Columbus developers. Meanwhile Stark is sitting on his hands. It doesn't help that our property tax system is broken, which encourages surface lots to stay undeveloped. Here is the county assessment for the surface lot Stark paid $6.5 million for. This is pretty absurd. 420 Prospect AVE Cleveland, OH 44115 Market Values ----------------------- Land Value $808,500 Building Value $13,300 Total Value $821,800 Tax Balance Summary $32,920.36 Remember this? https://neo-trans.blog/2021/09/17/cleveland-indians-may-buy-garage-for-ballpark-village-development/ Maybe the Cavs and Guardians ownership should buy Stark out.
October 6, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, Foraker said: Remember this? https://neo-trans.blog/2021/09/17/cleveland-indians-may-buy-garage-for-ballpark-village-development/ Maybe the Cavs and Guardians ownership should buy Stark out. Don't expect any help from the Dolan family. They are already on the hook for Progressive Field improvements as well as considering the garage for ballpark village.
October 6, 20213 yr 6 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said: Don't expect any help from the Dolan family. They are already on the hook for Progressive Field improvements as well as considering the garage for ballpark village. They're not going to be the owners for too much longer. The next new minority owner will be the next new majority owner. And they will likely be real estate developers. Doomers overlook that Stark was ready to build a scaled-down nuCLEus last year. Something is going to get built there. It may be Stark who does it. It may be someone else. We'll see, as if we have any other choice. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 6, 20213 yr Everybody is talking about the owner of the Indians, but this site is the front door to the Q, not Progressive Field. Dan Gilbert should swoop in and make a B-Ball Town on this lot, and the "Ferrari Building" lot across East 4th.
October 6, 20213 yr 28 minutes ago, KJP said: They're not going to be the owners for too much longer. The next new minority owner will be the next new majority owner. And they will likely be real estate developers. Doomers overlook that Stark was ready to build a scaled-down nuCLEus last year. Something is going to get built there. It may be Stark who does it. It may be someone else. We'll see, as if we have any other choice. i know that there are 3 potential minority investors. Do you have any insight on who they are? Is Bernie Morena one of them? How about Dan Gilbert?
October 6, 20213 yr 13 minutes ago, simplythis said: i know that there are 3 potential minority investors. Do you have any insight on who they are? Is Bernie Morena one of them? How about Dan Gilbert? Yes, but unfortunately it would burn a source. And this isn't the thread to discuss it anyway. 🙊 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 7, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, X said: Everybody is talking about the owner of the Indians, but this site is the front door to the Q, not Progressive Field. Dan Gilbert should swoop in and make a B-Ball Town on this lot, and the "Ferrari Building" lot across East 4th. Very few people would’ve loved having a vibrant Nucleus development directly across the street from RMFH more than Dan Gilbert.
October 7, 20213 yr 3 hours ago, KJP said: Doomers overlook that Stark was ready to build a scaled-down nuCLEus last year. Something is going to get built there. It may be Stark who does it. It may be someone else. We'll see, as if we have any other choice. If Stark does end up building something, it will go through numerous rounds of being scaled back and revisions. In the end, it could be unremarkable and disappointing. Instead of playing these games, Stark should just end up getting rid of the property and quit dragging it out.
October 7, 20213 yr 2 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said: If Stark does end up building something, it will go through numerous rounds of being scaled back and revisions. In the end, it could be unremarkable and disappointing. Instead of playing these games, Stark should just end up getting rid of the property and quit dragging it out. With such certainty about the future, I hope you have much more profitable visions such as upcoming Powerball numbers, etc. If so, please let me in on it! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 7, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: With such certainty about the future, I hope you have much more profitable visions such as upcoming Powerball numbers, etc. If so, please let me in on it! It doesn't take a genus to see a snake oil salesman that has parlayed past success to fool people. If you think the road to success is dumping money into the Powerball, so be it. People get fooled all the time into believing that the lottery will bring happiness based upon the luck of very few. Most end up with a big stack of losing tickets. Keep on buying your tickets. Then again, I don't need to upsetting my "sources". Edited October 7, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander
October 7, 20213 yr 7 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said: It doesn't take a genus to see a snake oil salesman that has parlayed past success to fool people. If you think the road to success is dumping money into the Powerball, so be it. People get fooled all the time into believing that the lottery will bring happiness based upon the luck of very few. Most end up with a big stack of losing tickets. Keep on buying your tickets. Then again, I don't need to upsetting my "sources". Believe me, I'm as disappointed as anyone that this hasn't panned out, so far -- and wish Stark had a more conservative approach to promoting his plans, at least initially. But I think snake-oil salesman is a little extreme. To follow this logic, what exactly is the benefit or gain that Stark has derived by purposely misleading people? He's spent (hundreds of) thousands of dollars on lobbying for TMUD, round after round of architectural plans, property acquisition, taxes, etc. And besides the parking revenue, not a dime to show for it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to perpetrate fraud. I don't doubt that Stark leaned a bit too far out on his skies on this one, but Beacon and Crocker Park (to name a couple) show that he is indeed capable of completing hundred+ million dollar developments. In this case, he needed a break or three to go his way that haven’t happened yet. Edited October 7, 20213 yr by brtshrcegr
October 7, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, brtshrcegr said: Believe me, I'm as disappointed as anyone that this hasn't panned out, so far -- and wish Stark had a more conservative approach to promoting his plans, at least initially. But I think snake-oil salesman is a little extreme. To follow this logic, what exactly is the benefit or gain that Stark has derived by purposely misleading people? He's spent (hundreds of) thousands of dollars on lobbying for TMUD, round after round of architectural plans, property acquisition, taxes, etc. And besides the parking revenue, not a dime to show for it. Seems like an awfully expensive way to perpetrate fraud. I don't doubt that Stark leaned a bit too far out on his skies on this one, but Lumen and Crocker Park (to name a couple) show that he is indeed capable of completing hundred+ million dollar developments. In this case, he needed a break or three to go his way that hasn't happened yet. Beacon, not Lumen.
October 7, 20213 yr 38 minutes ago, Klingaling87 said: Beacon, not Lumen. Ay thank you! Edited. The two buildings with illumination-related names, going up at almost the same time, continue to confuse me 🤦♂️ Edited October 7, 20213 yr by brtshrcegr
October 7, 20213 yr Yes, calling him a snake oil salesman is way over the top. Stark Enterprises has $2 billion worth of inventory it's developed or redeveloped nationwide. Stark definitely shoots too high sometimes in this low rent, high construction cost market. But he has put some nice things on the landscape. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 7, 20213 yr 10 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said: It doesn't take a genus to see a snake oil salesman that has parlayed past success to fool people. If you think the road to success is dumping money into the Powerball, so be it. People get fooled all the time into believing that the lottery will bring happiness based upon the luck of very few. Most end up with a big stack of losing tickets. Keep on buying your tickets. Then again, I don't need to upsetting my "sources". Not necessary to be an A-hole about it. Calm down
October 7, 20213 yr 11 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said: It doesn't take a genus It might not take a genus, but it most definitely takes a phylum and maybe even a species!
October 7, 20213 yr lol is it too dramatic to move this to abandoned projects? Sounds like it's going to be a long while before NuCLEus is anything more than a sign on E.4 and Huron.
October 7, 20213 yr 4 hours ago, KJP said: Yes, calling him a snake oil salesman is way over the top. Stark Enterprises has $2 billion worth of inventory it's developed or redeveloped nationwide. Stark definitely shoots too high sometimes in this low rent, high construction cost market. But he has put some nice things on the landscape. This is all standard developer speak. The tend to overhype and oversell and issue very optimistic timelines.
October 7, 20213 yr 5 minutes ago, GISguy said: lol is it too dramatic to move this to abandoned projects? Sounds like it's going to be a long while before NuCLEus is anything more than a sign on E.4 and Huron. I'd vote for that. It's time to put this project to bed. Admins can always move it back if there is official progress by either Stark or whoever he sells to.
December 21, 20213 yr Maybe it’s not completely dead? Who knows… He did get the TMUD in place l, which will likely bring the Huntington Building back to life in the short term. Of course that doesn’t benefit Stark- but it’s a benefit to the city. I would say that the Huntington Building redevelopment will be an even bigger deal than NuCLEus- the only drawback being that it’s not skyline changing. To my knowledge, Stark still owns the land where NuCLEus will be built. If we see he’s selling it, I think that will confirm the project is officially dead.
December 21, 20213 yr 57 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said: Maybe it’s not completely dead? Who knows… He did get the TMUD in place l, which will likely bring the Huntington Building back to life in the short term. Of course that doesn’t benefit Stark- but it’s a benefit to the city. I would say that the Huntington Building redevelopment will be an even bigger deal than NuCLEus- the only drawback being that it’s not skyline changing. To my knowledge, Stark still owns the land where NuCLEus will be built. If we see he’s selling it, I think that will confirm the project is officially dead. Agreed "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 21, 20213 yr The NuCLEus signs are still up on the corners (at least across from the Q), the project isn't dead until those signs come down lol
December 21, 20213 yr 18 minutes ago, GISguy said: The NuCLEus signs are still up on the corners (at least across from the Q), the project isn't dead until those signs come down lol Just ask Marie! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 21, 20213 yr Downtown still needs several high-rise buildings to meet the anticipated residential demand and the goal to reach 30k residents by 2030. This is still a perfect location for new residential development.
December 21, 20213 yr I have to prepare myself emotionally every time I see new activity in this thread.
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