October 18, 201410 yr 10 million sq. feet! Build it they will come!!! :-D Nu-CLE-us won't be that big. But it will have to be a vertical development to produce a revenue stream large enough to retire the debt he's incurred to buy those parking lots. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 18, 201410 yr Considering he wants to cram retail, offices, public parking and 500 apartments in that parcel, it would definitely have to be vertical. For speculation's sake, how tall would a 500 unit residential building be, assuming it would be about half the size of the parcel (like the massings suggest) and all of the units are the size of an average downtown apartment?
October 18, 201410 yr Considering he wants to cram retail, offices, public parking and 500 apartments in that parcel, it would definitely have to be vertical. For speculation's sake, how tall would a 500 unit residential building be, assuming it would be about half the size of the parcel (like the massings suggest) and all of the units are the size of an average downtown apartment? Some comparisons.... Residences at 668: 8 stories - 232 apartments Schofield Building: 14 stories - 122 hotel rooms/55 apartments Crittenden Court: 17 stories - 208 apartments Residences at 1717: 21 stories - 223 apartments Reserve Square: 23 stories each tower - 460 +/- apartments "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 18, 201410 yr ^a 40-50 story residential building---with some floors apartments and the higher floors condos--- with balconies throughout the building would be so very sweet. I'd buy a unit on the 45th floor in a second. (Though I wouldn't pay the same money to just rent one on the 45th floor.)
October 18, 201410 yr Thanks for that KJP. Definitely a lot of variances, especially between the 1717 and the 668; similar number of units but vastly different heights.
October 18, 201410 yr Considering he wants to cram retail, offices, public parking and 500 apartments in that parcel, it would definitely have to be vertical. For speculation's sake, how tall would a 500 unit residential building be, assuming it would be about half the size of the parcel (like the massings suggest) and all of the units are the size of an average downtown apartment? Some comparisons.... Residences at 668: 8 stories - 232 apartments Schofield Building: 14 stories - 122 hotel rooms/55 apartments Crittenden Court: 17 stories - 208 apartments Residences at 1717: 21 stories - 223 apartments Reserve Square: 23 stories each tower - 460 +/- apartments Are those building the same or approximate footprint at Nucleus?
October 20, 201410 yr Are those building the same or approximate footprint at Nucleus? Most are much smaller. The totality of Reserve Square's (450'x350') footprint is a little bit larger than nu-CLE-us' (430'x275') and it has fewer apartments (460) in two 23-story towers connected by a five-level parking deck than what nu-CLE-us would have. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 20, 201410 yr Are those building the same or approximate footprint at Nucleus? Most are much smaller. The totality of Reserve Square's (450'x350') footprint is a little bit larger than nu-CLE-us' (430'x275') and it has fewer apartments (460) in two 23-story towers connected by a five-level parking deck than what nu-CLE-us would have. KJP, is that the totality of NuCLEus' footprint or just the half the massing sits on? Sounds like it could be 40+ stories if he wants all the residential in a single building, especially if he's having apartments larger than the meager ones at Reserve.
October 20, 201410 yr KJP, is that the totality of NuCLEus' footprint or just the half the massing sits on? Sounds like it could be 40+ stories if he wants all the residential in a single building, especially if he's having apartments larger than the meager ones at Reserve. That's the entirety of the property Stark acquired east of East 4th, including the retail frontage on Prospect and the parking deck on Huron, both of which are to be razed. I measured from halfway down the Prospect frontage to halfway down the Huron frontage, and from halfway between Prospect/Huron on East 4th to the eastern edge of the property midway between Prospect/Huron. It didn't include any of the property west of East 4th fronting Prospect that he acquired. That could add about 40-60 apartments to the total. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 31, 201410 yr "But where will all the people gather for once-in-a-generation pregame Cavs concerts once they develop that surface lot??" -- Cleveland.com commenter
October 31, 201410 yr "But where will all the people gather for once-in-a-generation pregame Cavs concerts once they develop that surface lot??" -- Cleveland.com commenter Even though it was cleveland.bomb, I'm sure EVEN HE/SHE was kidding.
November 1, 201410 yr So is this the start of demolition? A permit issued regarding the garage on the nuCleus site.
November 1, 201410 yr Author Also the nuCleus filing with the SEC. http://www.secinfo.com/d1FgDx.nc.htm So according to Section 13 they offered $6.5 million in equity in the project and they have sold all but $20k. If that's not good news, I'm not sure what is.
November 2, 201410 yr Let's start with the fact that I have absolutely no knowledge of securities and SEC regs....with that....any idea why the offering is so small on such a large project? Will there be future offerings? If yes, why multiple offerings? Like I said I have no clue.
November 2, 201410 yr ^This might be the offering for only the Jdek entity in the JV. Without knowing the full deal structure, it's tough to make much from this, other than the fact that something is actually happening (which is good).
November 4, 201410 yr Awesome. Stark never got this far with Pesht! Of course, Stark didn't own the land for Pesht. Oh, and he wants Planning Commission's OK to go to 31 stories..... http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/index.php City Planning Commission Agenda for November 7, 2014 Ordinance No. 1410-14(Ward 3/Councilmember Cimperman): Authorizing the Commissioner of Purchases and Supplies to acquire and reconvey properties presently owned by Gateway Huron, LLC, or its designee, located on Prospect and Huron Avenues for the purpose of entering into the chain-of-title prior to the adopton of tax increment financing legislation authorized under Section 5709.41 of the Revised Code; and authorizing an agreement with Gateway Huron, LLC, or its designee. Ooops, more.... DOWNTOWN/FLATS DESIGN REVIEW 6. DF2014-110 - nuCLEus Mixed-Use Project: Concept Approval Project Address: 320-360 Prospect Avenue Project Representative: Steve Coven, Stark Enterprises "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 4, 201410 yr Awesome. Stark never got this far with Pesht! Of course, Stark didn't own the land for Pesht. Oh, and he wants Planning Commission's OK to go to 31 stories..... http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2014/11072014/index.php City Planning Commission Agenda for November 7, 2014 Ordinance No. 1410-14(Ward 3/Councilmember Cimperman): Authorizing the Commissioner of Purchases and Supplies to acquire and reconvey properties presently owned by Gateway Huron, LLC, or its designee, located on Prospect and Huron Avenues for the purpose of entering into the chain-of-title prior to the adopton of tax increment financing legislation authorized under Section 5709.41 of the Revised Code; and authorizing an agreement with Gateway Huron, LLC, or its designee. Wonder what "NYC style monumental arch and gate" means.
November 4, 201410 yr No need to include all the graphics again in your quote. Makes for slower loading. Thanks! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 4, 201410 yr We're about to get a massive development removing one of the more prominently ugly lots downtown...ohh and we're getting a nice new perrrrtyy tower to go with it...No big deal at all.
November 4, 201410 yr No need to include all the graphics again in your quote. Makes for slower loading. Yes, I know. I hit 'quote' before you added them to your post. And then immediately edited my post to remove them when I noticed it.
November 4, 201410 yr Curious though as to why there aren't any renderings out. Isn't it typical for projects like this to have some kind of rendering at this stage in the process?
November 4, 201410 yr I'm pretty mixed on this. It would be a lot better if they figured out how to get the parking entirely wrapped in apartments and offices, instead of having massive 6+ level parking garages just above street level, a la Florida.
November 4, 201410 yr Curious though as to why there aren't any renderings out. Isn't it typical for projects like this to have some kind of rendering at this stage in the process? The fact that Stark is presenting massings to CPC tells me he wants to get their input and consensus on the scale of this project. After he gets their feedback on what they'll likely accept, then I suspect he'll spend money on renderings. When he gets major tenants, then he'll advance the design into more detailed engineering. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 4, 201410 yr I'm pretty mixed on this. It would be a lot better if they figured out how to get the parking entirely wrapped in apartments and offices, instead of having massive 6+ level parking garages just above street level, a la Florida. Fortunately he will have ground-level uses other than parking. Some of the retail offerings could be pretty significant -- up to 75,000 square feet in leasable area. But that's also divisible as is shown below. Also, I'm interested to see that he proposes to turn East 4th south of Prospect into a pedestrian corridor (except for a driveway off Huron), in addition to the laneway he promised. One graphic I'll repost from the previous page is the ground-level concept... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 4, 201410 yr How tall will the 31 floor tower be? 31 stories tall. Sorry, couldn't resist..... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 4, 201410 yr How tall will the 31 floor tower be? 31 stories tall. Sorry, couldn't resist..... My response was going to be as tall as the market demands. My guess however would be about 425'
November 4, 201410 yr It's a good question. With the mix-use, could the floor sizes vary a bit? It could be as short as 300ft and as tall as 500ft, I would guess.
November 4, 201410 yr Wow! What a packed agenda. Yeah nothing going on in Cleveland. Man I hope he is getting interest from retailers, he must be. The apartment/office component I believe will fill up. I am worried about the retail. Also I hope the TIF isn't a problem. This is fantastic...
November 4, 201410 yr I agree the parking arrangement is a bit disappointing. That's like 900-1000 new spots by my rough estimating. But at least here it makes sense with the lot sizes. In retrospect the way Pesht was thought up was ridiculous.
November 4, 201410 yr Remember that the sheer amount of parking spaces is not only for the Stark development, but for The Q/Progressive Field as well. The garage that's currently there is the go-to parking area for sporting/concert events. I'm hazarding a guess that Stark wants a grocery store in that 20,000-sf space? A bit tight for a big full-service grocer, but doable.
November 4, 201410 yr Remember that the sheer amount of parking spaces is not only for the Stark development, but for The Q/Progressive Field as well. The garage that's currently there is the go-to parking area for sporting/concert events. I'm hazarding a guess that Stark wants a grocery store in that 20,000-sf space? A bit tight for a big full-service grocer, but doable. Really?... with Heinen's going in a few blocks away?
November 4, 201410 yr Remember that the sheer amount of parking spaces is not only for the Stark development, but for The Q/Progressive Field as well. The garage that's currently there is the go-to parking area for sporting/concert events. I'm hazarding a guess that Stark wants a grocery store in that 20,000-sf space? A bit tight for a big full-service grocer, but doable. Really?... with Heinen's going in a few blocks away? Hard to imagine a national grocery chain coming in with a Heinen's there. I think Heinen's took the risk partly because of a sense of civic responsibility. Even if downtown would reach 20,000 population in the coming years, still hard to imagine two grocery stores.
November 5, 201410 yr City Target? too small. I think the average CityTarget is about 80,000 sq. ft. 80,000 sq. ft is on the very small side for a CityTarget too
November 5, 201410 yr ^Actually, Target is now experimenting with large urban stores- a new one in a Boston high rise will be 160K sf (bigger than a typical suburban one). http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/10/10/target-tries-new-bigger-strategy-for-fenway-area-store/NawRMoCeTDQUX7WAUqaZ7H/story.html
November 5, 201410 yr It's a good question. With the mix-use, could the floor sizes vary a bit? It could be as short as 300ft and as tall as 500ft, I would guess. Since there are 13!! floors of parking and another 11 stories of residential, I would guess toward the lower end, maybe 350 ft. Unless, there is an architectural element at the top. Pretty disappointing given the massing looks like between 450 -500 ft. And 13 floors of parking???
November 5, 201410 yr How long would it take to drive up 13 floors to park? Round and round and round...haha
November 5, 201410 yr How long would it take to drive up 13 floors to park? Round and round and round...haha That's what I was thinking! I park on the fourth floor at work and even that is exasperating.
November 5, 201410 yr Gah, I forgot about the The 9's Heinen's being so close by. :-o Still, it's rather optimistic of Stark to plan such a large storefront, because there's not much else, retail-wise, you can put in such a large space. Besides a Planet Fitness (yuck). Speaking of Target, they've been rolling out a "micro" format store called TargetExpress, which range from 12,000 to 20,000 square feet. From what I've read on them, they seem to be geared more towards a general merchandise, drug store format (à la CVS or Walgreens), rather than only groceries.
November 5, 201410 yr I would like to see a big time Nike store in one of those larger spaces, like the one in Times Square. You would think with Lebron that could help convince them.
November 5, 201410 yr Hope more than the Toby Keith bar is built in time for the Republican convention... go for a 500+ foot high tower, Mr. Stark (or you're a wimp!!!) :clap: :clap: :shoot: :shoot:
November 5, 201410 yr The 75,000 SF leasable ground floor space is the max if no space is divided. Stark's plan shows divided retail spaces which tells me he doesn't have a large retailer signed yet. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 5, 201410 yr I would like to see a big time Nike store in one of those larger spaces, like the one in Times Square. You would think with Lebron that could help convince them. There is no Nike town in Times square. Shoe stores have built in "sneaker heads", but they are one dimensional stores. Stores in that development will have more diversity and appeal to children to adults. With more people moving downtown developers need to start thinking of family friendly stores and pet stores.
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