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Cleveland: Downtown: nuCLEus

SixthCity
in Abandoned Projects

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  • KJP
    KJP

    Got another source confirming an August groundbreaking. No date yet, but could have it as early as next week. The source is VERY GOOD.

  • inlovewithCLE
    inlovewithCLE

    I think it’s straight up trash to act like @KJPis a click chaser. That’s garbage. He’s broken enough big news around here to earn some damn respect and the benefit of the doubt. No one is perfect, but

  • KJP
    KJP

    I was informed that Stark is considering going back to the 54-story, mixed-use tower, if they can get a TMUD credit. If not, then they will move forward with the 25-story office building at the end of

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http://www.starkenterprises.com/properties/515-euclid-complex/

 

Just was searching Nucleus for any recent news and found this page on Stark's website about adding 200 apartments on top of the 515 Euclid parking garage. Is there another thread for that garage?

 

Great find! That's the confirmation of what's been rumored. THAT'S HUGE!

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

Im not sure, I'll wait until they give a year when construction will start. 

A commercial building permit has been issued for the parking lot at 320 Prospect ave. under an LLC associated with Stark Enterprises. Really don't know much more, the permit indicates it is for 'site development' and that a city planning date is 'pending'. Idk, it could just mean a fancier parking lot.

 

https://ca.permitcleveland.org/Public/Cap/CapDetail.aspx?Module=BuildingHousing&TabName=BuildingHousing&capID1=15BHO&capID2=00000&capID3=12022&agencyCode=COC&IsToShowInspection=

I gotta be honest, I'd take it over the current eyesore that that stretch is... Something is better than nothing. I'm embarrassed anytime someone from out of town goes through that...

It certainly would have been colorful, but let's see what Stark has in mind. This corner and the buildings west of it, 515 Euclid and the parking core of nuCLEus appear to be the low-hanging fruit here.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

why would that thing still be on loopnet (says record updated 8 days ago)? Is it still possible to happen? I thought the city squashed it like the bug it is!

 

I gotta be honest' date=' I'd take it over the current eyesore that that stretch is... Something is better than nothing. [/quote']

 

its not better than nothing if it prevents a better and multi-story building from being constructed there.

It looks like it would be more at home on the North Olmsted Auto Mile. Just replace all the corporate logos with one big logo of a car manufacturer and it will look like your typical suburban auto dealer showroom.

Good question! That's the corner that L&R (prior owner) wanted to build the ugly thing shown here....

 

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18594981/310-320-Prospect-Ave-Cleveland-OH/

 

Similar to other sites: do we know if anyone really wanted to build this? Or was it just the requirement to show some disingenuous anything redevelopment "plan" to get a demo permit.

Thankfully we'll never know.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

Two comments about previous posts:  Doesn't Albert's always have "For Sale" signs on display in the windows?

As for the building with the black glass, maybe it could be restored to its original exterior materials, if there's really enough there, but this is a case, imho, that the glossy facade is really striking, very '30s and '40s, and I'd like to see it stay - all cleaned and restored to its original appearance, of course.

  • 3 weeks later...

Any news on Nucleus? It's been strangely quiet. Too quiet.

They are probably trying to secure more leases, which will in tern make financing easier.  So, a bit of downtime is to be expected. 

 

But, phase 1 on the other hand, should have already kicked off if it were to make the 2016 RNC cut off

So  I think this means 320 Prospect is going to stay a parking lot for awhile.

https://ca.permitcleveland.org/Public/Cap/CapDetail.aspx?Module=BuildingHousing&TabName=BuildingHousing&capID1=15BCO&capID2=00000&capID3=00769&agencyCode=COC&IsToShowInspection=

 

Applicant:

1350 W.3RD ST

CLEVELAND, OH, 44113

 

Project Description:

320 Prospect Ave - Parking Lot

ESTABLISH USE OF 13 SPACE PARKING LOT PER APPROVED PLANS. SPECIAL CONDITIONS APPY BASED ON THE APPROVAL OF THE STRUCTURE AT 310 PROSPECT. THE TEMPORARY STABILIZATION OF 310 PROSPECT MUST BE MAINTAINED. ALL CORRECTIONS REQ'D BY 05/31/17 FOR CONTINUED OCCUPANCY OF THE PARKING LOT AT 320 PROSPECT.

 

Owner:GATEWAY HURON LLC C/O HEROLD BLDG. LLC

1350 W.3RD ST

CLEVELAND OH 44113

Not to sound too pessimistic, but I suggest folks (especially younger folks) take a look at the time stamp on the first posts of other big, new-build projects in Cleveland, like Uptown and Flats East Bank, for a sense how long these things can take in our market. Given the huge public subsidies that go into them, all the commercial pre-leasing needed to get the private part of the financing, and the risk of unanticipated market changes in the meantime, it's a long timeline. Not saying NuCLEus will take 11 years or whatever it took for the residential portion of FEB, but I doubt groundbreaking will happen anytime in the next year or two. Except maybe a new parking garage, I guess.

^ I don't think that's pessimistic. That's just a realistic view of development. It's very rare that a development will be like The 9, where it's brought from conception to completion in a little over a year. However, I doubt this will take as long as Flats East Bank or Uptown. The market is in much better shape now. There should be no worries about attracting enough apartment tenants, they already have that law firm signed on for the office space, and I think they have a hotel tenant in the works as well. I think the only thing really holding this up is the commercial/retail component, and this is probably because (as mentioned previously), certain tenants won't sign until other certain tenants of another type sign. So, I think eventually it will all just fall into place.

As long as we don't have another financial crisis like the one in 2008-2010! And as you say, the urban residential market (rents, inventory, occupancy, experience) is much more advanced now. I think a project like 515 Euclid could happen relatively quickly (within two years?), as might some of the building rehabs and low-level new construction on the SE corner of East 4th and Prospect. I will be shocked if the 54-story happens as designed within 5-7 years. Perhaps its parking deck could happen sooner.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

  • 1 month later...

Stark has secured another anchor tenant for nuCLEus.  This was announced last night during the DCA Q3 market update meeting. 

And it is who.....?

Yeah that's not even cool on a Friday. You gotta give some details!

Stark has secured another anchor tenant for nuCLEus.  This was announced last night during the DCA Q3 market update meeting.

 

I arrived later at the Q3 market update meeting, so I may have missed the nuCLEus tip. Did they mention if it was an office or retail/restaurant tenant?

Sorry, but that's all they told us...This news did come directly from Tracey Nichols.  I'm sure we'll be hearing more details very soon!

 

Tracey sounded optimistic this would help move financing forward. 

Yeah that's not even cool on a Friday. You gotta give some details!

Stark has secured another anchor tenant for nuCLEus.  This was announced last night during the DCA Q3 market update meeting.

 

I arrived later at the Q3 market update meeting, so I may have missed the nuCLEus tip. Did they mention if it was an office or retail/restaurant tenant?

 

Nope.

I would think that "anchor" tenant for this project would have to be for office space.

Or the hotel. Nothing has been announced in that regard yet, right?

Couldn't it also be a retail tenant? It seems like the retail component might actually be the most difficult part of this project. Often with retail, certain tenants will only sign on if another type of tenant is signed on. And that tenant will only sign if there's yet another type of tenant signed on (etc.). So sometimes it just takes one major retail tenant to create a ripple effect and give the project serious momentum.

Although I love the NuCLEus development, I am losing interest in the tall 50+ story model office building. I believe our skyline is too vertical with no balance, the buildings seem to drop off to much and has too many gaps depending on the angle in which you view it. I'd much rather have two 25-30 story office buildings with retail at the bottom, maybe with the hotel mixed with them. I know it may not be a popular view but our skyline imo is too vertical and skinny and lacks great density. This would be the perfect step towards changing that.

 

EDIT: I believe another reason I feel like the height is too tall is due to its location. The buildings on prospect are lower rise compared to other streets. Starting at the aforementioned height would allow the skyline to have more density, while allowing future projects to be taller without new/old buildings looking out of place. Just a personal opinion.

^ Really? Our skyline is not that vertical, compared to many other cities. I think a tall modern building is really what we need to show that Cleveland is a modern city.

 

I also don't think skylines are that important, tbh. I pay attention to the individual architecture of buildings. If the architecture is good, usually a good skyline just kinda happens naturally.

^the only way you'll get the density of high rises is to have a bunch of them. so this would be our 4th...and eventually we'll see a 5th, 6th, 7th, etc.  But we won't if we instead push for your wish:

 

I'd much rather have two 25-30 story office buildings

 

We need more--not less--tall bldgs....if anything even one more would balance out the other three.

That's been Cleveland's calling card since 1930, a very unbalanced skyline.  The gaps are more pronounced because our tallest buildings are surrounded by so much open space.  Some of that effect is intentional, like it or not.  A completed west end would take care of the unintentional part. 

 

I do like the positioning of this new tower because it keeps most of the height close to the river and the square, adding to the existing crescendo effect and emphasizing that this is the city's true core.

^the only way you'll get the density of high rises is to have a bunch of them. so this would be our 4th...and eventually we'll see a 5th, 6th, 7th, etc.  But we won't if we instead push for your wish:

 

I'd much rather have two 25-30 story office buildings

 

We need more--not less--tall bldgs....if anything even one more would balance out the other three.

I believe that is a great height to create a nice dense downtown, look at Cincinnati they don't try to get super talls and they have a great dense skyline, probably the most dense in Ohio. Great architecture is very important, which this project has. I feel like even though this would be our fourth skyscraper, we are not New York or Chicago so skyscrapers don't come along often and we would be waiting years for our 5th, 6th, 7th etc. I believe 30 story buildings would be easier to come by (at least more so than a skyscraper) and fill in our downtown nicely (if done correctly). I don't want to take this off topic (I'm not sure if I am) so I will just leave it here to prevent a tangent.

I'll take a downtown with a couple dozen 20-something-story buildings than one with four 50-something-story buildings + only a dozen 20-something-story buildings.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

Stark has secured another anchor tenant for nuCLEus.  This was announced last night during the DCA Q3 market update meeting.

 

Will you please post a link to the Q3 update when it's available? I don't see it on the DCA's website yet...

We already have 33 buildings downtown that are over 250 feet and most of these are over 20 stories.  This is a good foundation for a great skyline.

 

Cleveland needs several buildings over 500 feet to be a great skyline.  Nucleus is a great start and would balance out the skyline with a tall building south of Euclid and Public Square.  The AT&T and the 9 buildings are nearby that are fairly tall buildings.  So, I don't think it would be out of place by any stretch of the imagination.

The best parts of downtown at street level are those gaps you see in the skyline from a distance

More 20-30 floor buildings? NO WAY!!  That new Hilton is 30-32 short floors and it isn't very visible from a distance.  Cleveland needs more 500 ft + buildings.  By some standards, Columbus is ranked ahead of Cleveland because of the # of 500+ plus buildings (5 vs 4).  That's not cool.

More 20-30 floor buildings? NO WAY!!  That new Hilton is 30-32 short floors and it isn't very visible from a distance.  Cleveland needs more 500 ft + buildings.  By some standards, Columbus is ranked ahead of Cleveland because of the # of 500+ plus buildings (5 vs 4).  That's not cool.

 

We need more 500 feet+ buildings? Maybe when all of our empty lots are filled up and real estate becomes so expensive and in such high demand that we need to build vertical. I love tall buildings as much as the next guy, but it really doesn't make much sense for us to be building those right now.

  • Author

"We" shouldn't decide how tall buildings should or shouldn't be.  The landowner/developer is the one who makes that decision.  If Bobby Stark wants to build 50+ stories into the sky, then god bless him.

^ Well, obviously. I'm still not convinced that we're going to see a 500'+ tower at nuCLEus, but if the market is there, then go for it. I'm just pushing back against the mindset that tall buildings are needed just because we want an impressive skyline.

^No one is saying that in exchange for tall buildings we'll take vacant lots in between. We're only saying we should want 50+ story bldgs and should not compromise for a short, squat city of 20-30 story bldgs.

 

Of course--IN ADDITION to having 500'+ bldgs, we want a constant street wall of bldgs and activity and not isolated towers separated by nothingness. If the space between the tall skyscrapers are filled with 20-30 story bldgs, that's great. But a city with three towers and the remainder as Justice Center-height bldgs is not a goal we should be shooting for to be a grand city.

 

 

It's possible that Stark is seeking such a large building to generate enough revenue from our downtown's low rents to finance the high price he had to pay for the parking lots. Sadly, our parking lots are so valuable because the metro area is so sprawled out there's few residential concentrations for transit to tap into and make those parking lots less important.

 

Seeking a 500-footer for the sake of having one in a downtown littered with so many surface parking lots is the equivalent of driving a monster truck to compensate for a small weenie. Such a big building doesn't make your anemic downtown any healthier. In fact, if more small buildings are sacrificed for more surface parking lots or an attached parking garage is built so that office workers never step out on to the sidewalk, it makes your downtown less of a walker's paradise and a less appealing place to be.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

I wish they put Nucleus on Public Square on that empty lot, then build outward from the location. I agree with earlier posters. We need taller buildings more like Erieview tower height to even out the skyline. We also need to fill in those parking lots/ gaps in the skyline...

I wish they put Nucleus on Public Square on that empty lot, then build outward from the location. I agree with earlier posters. We need taller buildings more like Erieview tower height to even out the skyline. We also need to fill in those parking lots/ gaps in the skyline...

 

As excited as I was when I first saw plans for nuCLEus, I also lamented the fact that Stark had seemingly abandoned plans for developing the Warehouse District. Those parking lots do more to destroy the urban fabric downtown than the parking lot next to the Q.

If surface parking is an undesirable land use, it could be taxed more.  That might solve multiple problems at once.  The problem is that it's viewed as a desirable land use.  There's actually a lot of support for it.  Business owners along West 6th have openly opposed any development of the lots there.

If surface parking is an undesirable land use, it could be taxed more.  That might solve multiple problems at once.  The problem is that it's viewed as a desirable land use.  There's actually a lot of support for it.  Business owners along West 6th have openly opposed any development of the lots there.

 

Taxes cannot be applied punitively. Now if the sewer district wants to add an impervious surfaces tax to address the costs of stormwater runoff, or similar cost of so much pavement, etc. that might be legal.

 

But we're getting off subject here.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

Who said anything about punitive?  There's already a tax.  Anyway, point is I'd bet that Stark met a lot less resistance to building this project on this lot, as compared to his earlier WHD plan.  A taller tower with a smaller footprint has less impact on surface parking.  We here aren't fans of that, but there is a fan base, and suburban commuters are only one portion of it.  All in all, this project is a huge victory so I'm not worrying about what could have been.

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