June 27, 20168 yr I actually think the office component is the weakest demand. Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf. Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc. And look at the vacancies they all still have. Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf. There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents. Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason. Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants... where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from? A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many. It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking.... Even with Benesch and Stark Enterprises committed to close to 100,000 square feet already?
June 27, 20168 yr I actually think the office component is the weakest demand. Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf. Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc. And look at the vacancies they all still have. Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf. There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents. Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason. Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants... where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from? A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many. It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking.... Even with Benesch and Stark Enterprises committed to close to 100,000 square feet already? Not sure what the total sf of these two groups would be or how much total sf they are trying to fill. Keep in mind, most firms are consolidating/reducing sf by about 30% when they make a move like this... more open work stations, fewer private offices, more huddle rooms... more technology, less file storage....
June 27, 20168 yr I actually think the office component is the weakest demand. Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf. Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc. And look at the vacancies they all still have. Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf. There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents. Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason. Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants... where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from? A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many. It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking.... Even with Benesch and Stark Enterprises committed to close to 100,000 square feet already? Not sure what the total sf of these two groups would be or how much total sf they are trying to fill. Keep in mind, most firms are consolidating/reducing sf by about 30% when they make a move like this... more open work stations, fewer private offices, more huddle rooms... more technology, less file storage.... From what I've read, it looks like there's only 200k of total office space available at nuCLEus. Stark is going to lease 25k and Benesch has committed to around 70k.
June 27, 20168 yr There's always one. Lol. Sheesh. Bah humbug I guess OK, I'm sorry. Gilbert will abandon his business sense and ignore market fundamentals and instead dance through the city throwing C-notes wildly into the air at any developer who utters "Cavs championship" to him. Don't be that guy.
June 27, 20168 yr Don't be that guy. Want me to lie to you instead, by telling you that Cleveland's office market is dynamic? Or that a sports team's performance actually has some impact on the office market? Sorry, it doesn't. They're unrelated. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 27, 20168 yr I'm hearing rumblings that if the Indians make the post-season construction will start on the Public Square parking lot. Let's go Tribe!
June 27, 20168 yr I actually think the office component is the weakest demand. Consider that the existing "class A" office buildings downtown are doing leases at $16-$18 psf. Penton/Aecom, North Pointe, 1111 Superior, One Cleveland Center, etc. And look at the vacancies they all still have. Then consider that these new construction buildings require rents of $30-32 psf. There's not a lot of companies that can afford those rents. Flats East Bank probably isn't doing any more office for this reason. Also adding new office at Pinecrest which will compete with this development for tenants, and the North Coast Harbor development is looking for tenants... where does everyone think these new tenants are coming from? A few may make the move from the suburbs but not many. It's a huge swing in a company's financials to double their rent and pay for parking.... Even with Benesch and Stark Enterprises committed to close to 100,000 square feet already? Not sure what the total sf of these two groups would be or how much total sf they are trying to fill. Keep in mind, most firms are consolidating/reducing sf by about 30% when they make a move like this... more open work stations, fewer private offices, more huddle rooms... more technology, less file storage.... From what I've read, it looks like there's only 200k of total office space available at nuCLEus. Stark is going to lease 25k and Benesch has committed to around 70k. Is anyone on this board connected at the building department? It would be interesting to see when the first set of plans are submitted for plan review, shell package, demo/site work, etc. That would give a pretty good indication of how real it is. And it should probably happen by end of the summer. That parking garage will close and get torn down as will Mr. Alberts building at 618 Prospect. Start looking for "going out of business" or moving signs there by end of summer
June 27, 20168 yr Is anyone on this board connected at the building department? It would be interesting to see when the first set of plans are submitted for plan review, shell package, demo/site work, etc. That would give a pretty good indication of how real it is. And it should probably happen by end of the summer. That parking garage will close and get torn down as will Mr. Alberts building at 618 Prospect. Start looking for "going out of business" or moving signs there by end of summer
June 27, 20168 yr Mr. Alberts building at 618 Prospect. Start looking for "going out of business" or moving signs there by end of summer I think the lack of a going out of business sign in Mr. Alberts would be more indicative of a change.
July 7, 20168 yr If only championships and real estate development were connected -- Cleveland would surely benefit. But the Cavs (or Monsters) winning won't translate into new construction for Stark. It won't even impact Gilbert who owns both championship teams. He's smart enough to know you keep emotions out of business decisions. You don't become a billionaire by reacting. Perhaps that's not such a crazy idea as one might think? I leave this, without comment :wink: https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1822095651950218499
July 10, 20168 yr That's almost a joke, regarding Mr. Albert's.... That joint has had "going out of business" sales signs in its windows on and off for years!
July 23, 20168 yr Obviously Stark can't break ground for nucleus if he hasn't been through the approvals process yet. And I couldn't remember what if any elements he has submitted for approval this far. So I looked back through this thread and found the following.... No graphics posted on this yet..... http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2015/01162015/DRC2015_1_15.pdf Downtown/Flats Design Review Agenda Thursday January 15th, 2015 Cleveland City Hall Room 514 *Schematic Design Approval 3. Project: DF2014-110 nuCLEus Project Address: 320-630 Prospect Avenue Project Representative: Steven H. Coven, Stark Enterprises, Inc.; *Denotes agenda item will also appear before the Cleveland City Planning Commission the following day, Friday, January 16th, 2015. Here's the document being submitted to the city review committee today. www.documentcloud.org/documents/1502590-20150113-city-stark-comments.html#document/p1 And so begins the formal approvals process (ie: not conceptual presentations).... http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/bza/agenda/2015/crr03-30-2015.pdf Board of Zoning Appeals MONDAY MARCH 30, 2015 9:30 Calendar No. 15-33: 420 through 630 Prospect & 601 through 611 Huron Ave. Ward 3 Joe Cimperman 14 Notices Gateway Huron, LLC., owner, proposes to construct an approximately 650 foot tall, 54 story building with 885,749 square foot residential/hotel floor area, 119,332 square foot retail area and 492,684 square foot parking area; connected to a second proposed 25 story building up to 350 feet tall with approximately 244,000 square feet of office area, 16,853 square foot retail area, and 257,600 square feet of parking area, both on a 130,075 square foot lot in an E5 General Retail Business District and Semi-Industry District. The owner appeals for relief from the following sections of the Cleveland Codified Ordinances: 1. Section 355.04(b) which states that in an “E” Area District, the maximum gross floor area of a residential building cannot exceed one and one-half times the lot area. A maximum gross floor area of 195,112.5 square feet is permitted: a gross floor of approximately 2 million square feet is proposed. 2. Section 353.01 which states that in a “5” Height District, maximum height of the building cannot exceed 250 feet. 3. Section 357.09(b)(2)© which states that the interior side yard in the amount of one-fourth the height of the main building is required. 4. Section 357.08(b)(2) which states that the rear yard in the amount of one-half the height of the building is required. (Filed February 10, 2015) "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 28, 20168 yr Very excited about this project but they haven't released any new information yet. :-( I really hope it happens
July 28, 20168 yr Very excited about this project but they haven't released any new information yet. :-( I really hope it happens It may be awhile. Stark & Co. are ramping up to begin construction on The Beacon, the 28-story apt tower at 515 Euclid where, originally I'd read they would begin work after the RNC, but in a later article, Michelle Jarboe indicated a fall or winter start IIRC.
July 28, 20168 yr Very excited about this project but they haven't released any new information yet. :-( I really hope it happens It may be awhile. Stark & Co. are ramping up to begin construction on The Beacon, the 28-story apt tower at 515 Euclid where, originally I'd read they would begin work after the RNC, but in a later article, Michelle Jarboe indicated a fall or winter start IIRC. What? Stark can't work on two projects at the same time? According to the Stark Enterprises web site, Stark has "in development" six projects. Two of which are 515 Euclid (The Beacon), and Nucleus. Considering the Downtown Cleveland Alliance has said the waiting list for downtown living is around 2000 people on waiting list, I see no reason why both Stark's Cleveland projects can't be going up at the same time. It would be nice to see multiple construction cranes in Cleveland's skyline. It has been a long time since that has happened. 515 Euclid (The Beacon) is to be approx. 200 residential units, and Nucleus is to be approx. 450-500 units, so even if the Super Block project phase I were to start construction while either of Stark's projects were going up, and we include all the other residential projects (new construction, or redo's of older buildings), I still do not see why both Stark projects could not be going up at the same time. There is more than enough demand for downtown living. And if one of the things holding up Stark's Nucleus project is the office component, I do not think this should hold up the apt component of the project. Stark can do the whole project in phases, just like many other projects are done. The question to a phased project though is the hotel portion since the hotel is both a part of the residential tower and the office tower.
July 28, 20168 yr And if one of the things holding up Stark's Nucleus project is the office component, I do not think this should hold up the apt component of the project. Stark can do the whole project in phases, just like many other projects are done. The question to a phased project though is the hotel portion since the hotel is both a part of the residential tower and the office tower. If he delays too much longer, won't he risk losing Benesch, which is looking for a 2018 occupancy? Still, I guess Benesch could get an extension of their current lease. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
July 28, 20168 yr I know that for many of you, most of your development experience with Stark is Pesht. But if you didn't see the entire Crocker Park project from the first twinkle in Stark's eye to where it is now, you're really not giving Stark much credit. The huge scale of the Crocker Park project and the amount of opposition he had to overcome showed me -- as a reporter who followed that project intimately -- what he is capable of. He can certainly do The Beacon and nuCLEus at the same time. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 28, 20168 yr I know that for many of you, most of your development experience with Stark is Pesht. But if you didn't see the entire Crocker Park project from the first twinkle in Stark's eye to where it is now, you're really not giving Stark much credit. The huge scale of the Crocker Park project and the amount of opposition he had to overcome showed me -- as a reporter who followed that project intimately -- what he is capable of. He can certainly do The Beacon and nuCLEus at the same time. Yeah, Stark has done a good job in Westlake and Woodmere, but our experience with him in Cleveland is all talk and no show. Only he can change that perception, and he hasn't done much yet to do so.
July 28, 20168 yr It's not a matter of whether Stark can do both projects in the abstract. But we all know there are tons of hurdles to clear for any significant new residential construction in Cleveland, especially high rise construction and even more especially in downtown where a the last such project was Park Center, now Reserve Square, ... 44 years ago! Financing is the usual devil in the details. If it were so easy, the Beacon would have risen more close in time to when its parking base was built over a decade ago... And given the ginormous scale and daring architecture of nuCLEus it's not surprising these projects, largely by one company, being staggered, with the "smaller" Beacon going up first.... I know Cleveland is white hot right now, but even in a place like, say Chicago, such projects don't shoot up in the space of a year or so.
July 29, 20168 yr I know that for many of you, most of your development experience with Stark is Pesht. But if you didn't see the entire Crocker Park project from the first twinkle in Stark's eye to where it is now, you're really not giving Stark much credit. The huge scale of the Crocker Park project and the amount of opposition he had to overcome showed me -- as a reporter who followed that project intimately -- what he is capable of. He can certainly do The Beacon and nuCLEus at the same time. Yeah, Stark has done a good job in Westlake and Woodmere, but our experience with him in Cleveland is all talk and no show. Only he can change that perception, and he hasn't done much yet to do so. What was stark responsible for in Woodmere? Eton or something completely different?
July 29, 20168 yr What was stark responsible for in Woodmere? Eton or something completely different? Eton. But it's a very small development compared to Crocker Park, which is probably approaching $1 billion in total investment. 515 Euclid/Beacon is only a $50 million project with the hardest part (digging into downtown dirt and building a foundation) already done. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 29, 20168 yr Hanna Commercial newsletter promoting downtown retail with nuCLEus featured as well. Although they made a mistake on page 3 by noting nuCLEus will have 5,000 apartments :-o That would have to rival Burj Khalifa to fit that many units. http://hhhc.reapplications.com/filecabinet/Contact/000062/HannaCRE-Newsletter-3rdQ-2016%281%29.pdf https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
July 29, 20168 yr And if one of the things holding up Stark's Nucleus project is the office component, I do not think this should hold up the apt component of the project. Stark can do the whole project in phases, just like many other projects are done. The question to a phased project though is the hotel portion since the hotel is both a part of the residential tower and the office tower. If he delays too much longer, won't he risk losing Benesch, which is looking for a 2018 occupancy? Still, I guess Benesch could get an extension of their current lease. Per the newsletter that Firenze just posted, they are looking to occupy and move in 2019 (although with the 5,000 apartment units in the same paragraph, I have to wonder about the fact checking).
August 10, 20168 yr I'm losing faith that this project will happen. I haven't seen any updates on this project. ???
August 10, 20168 yr I eagerly opened this thread thinking there would be one when I saw there was a new post :whip:
August 10, 20168 yr I think we're just in a frustrating time. We've had so many proposals and such and now zilch on all of them basically. I am still hopeful that we will be getting more news on many of them over the next few weeks. This proposal has so many pieces and parts and crazy financing requirements. It's not a surprise that it's taking a while.
August 10, 20168 yr I'm losing faith that this project will happen. I haven't seen any updates on this project. ??? I wouldn't worry; just because updates haven't been forthcoming doesn't mean the project is dead or even stalled. There are a lot of pieces that have to come together! One item that makes me feel it is promising is that Stark has made their building over by the Warehouse district available for sale. Also, there are contractors (at least one that I know of) that have been contacted about doing construction/installation work and to have bids/timeframes prepared for this and the Weston/Citymark project. I still believe!
August 10, 20168 yr It's just this type of project is what we really need to happen. It'll make a huge impact within our skyline. I feel a heart beat again. ❤️ Thank You
August 10, 20168 yr I spoke with someone recently that works for Stark. My company was liking for retail space downtown and we were interested in some of Starks properties. When I asked about some of their listings she also mentioned the upcoming Nucleus project, talking about it in a way that it was OBVIOUSLY going to be finished and retail space would be available to our company. I would assume they are instructed to sell the upcoming space as if it's already finished and furnished to get a potential tenant interested. $60/sqft -- I'm out
August 10, 20168 yr I'm losing faith that this project will happen. I haven't seen any updates on this project. ??? How about this: stop posting in a thread because you haven't heard anything. This goes for all project threads. I'm so tired of clicking on threads expecting to see news and it just someone going "what's happening with this project?" It's a waste of time and space. When news come out about this or any other project, it will be posted here first. Relax.
August 10, 20168 yr ^ i know, but floods7 just gave us sort of an update -- i'll take that -- it was interesting. nucleus office rentals are too much $ for his business, but if i am reading this right it doesn't look too out of line, so regarding pricing that is good news: http://www.loopnet.com/Cleveland_Ohio_Market-Trends
August 10, 20168 yr ^Isn't the data you are referencing relates to sale price? I think Flood7 meant he was quoted $60 square foot for retail lease which I believe is pretty high for Cuyahoga County
August 10, 20168 yr This is not Beverly Hills ... retail tenants won't rent at $60 pdf. Max would be $38.
August 10, 20168 yr $60/sqft -- I'm out If that's a true office rental rate that's pretty insane. Isn't Key Tower close to $30/sqft? Does Stark really think he can get double what Key Tower is getting?
August 11, 20168 yr I've heard from some folks I trust that things are progressing as they should with this. That is all...
August 11, 20168 yr ^Isn't the data you are referencing relates to sale price? I think Flood7 meant he was quoted $60 square foot for retail lease which I believe is pretty high for Cuyahoga County oh yeah its sale not rentals, his company wants to rent
August 29, 20168 yr The Hopcat Brewpub lease in NuCLEus is encouraging. http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160829/NEWS/160829857/hopcat-brewpub-could-open-in-proposed-nucleus-project I lately spent some time browsing architectural magazines and have decided that the design of NuCLEus is ok for Cleveland because there will be nothing else like it. OTOH, in bigger cities where eccentrically stacked box designs aren't rarities, the look gets old fast. Oh well, maybe this is just a sign of my advancing age. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
August 29, 20168 yr Interesting tidbit from the article... "Asked where launching nuCLEus stands, Stark said the company wants to close financing as soon as the city of Cleveland completes incentives requested for the project. He declined to go into more detail. A Jackson administration spokesman was not able to respond to questions by 4 p.m. on Friday, Aug. 26." Actual news!! Thanks for posting this update. I wonder what would be the hold-up of incentives from the city if Council actually knew that financing for the project is hinged on the city moving first... I don't know if the city would drag it's feet on this.
August 29, 20168 yr ^I'm not sure how newsy that really is. It's been clear (explicit even) from the beginning this thing was going to require massive public hand-outs, and I wouldn't put much stock in the developer's comments about how far they are with private financing. I certainly hope it's true, though, and that what the developer is asking from city isn't too absurd.
August 29, 20168 yr I hear what you're saying... On the one hand, I applaud planners and the CPC for thinking out of the box with aggressive and different architectural schemes, like nuCLEus and the new Hilton... On the other, the fact this muscular, stacked complex will dominate our skyline gives me pause, plus the design just seems so provocatively unbalanced I sometimes wonder about it's structural integrity... I'm sure they know what they're doing, however, and I do love the planned function of this massive project even if I'm not in love with its form.
August 29, 20168 yr ^I'm not sure how newsy that really is. It's been clear (explicit even) from the beginning this thing was going to require massive public hand-outs, and I wouldn't put much stock in the developer's comments about how far they are with private financing. I certainly hope it's true, though, and that what the developer is asking from city isn't too absurd. How large are the public handouts? Tens of millions?
August 29, 20168 yr ^Who knows the exact number for this project, but as a point of reference, $35.5M of the $149 total financing package for Flats East Bank Phase II came form public sources (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/04/flats_east_bank_developers_wra.html). That's not really the value of the subsidies, but gives you an idea how big and complicated the ask probably is.
August 31, 20168 yr Probably for nuCLEus. I recall that the current zoning didn't allow for a 50-story building in some/all of that triangular-shaped block... ZONING MAP AMENDMENTS Ordinance No. 730-16(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack): Changing the Use, [H]eight, and Area Districts of the parcels bounded by Prospect Avenue, Ontario [street], and Huron [Road]. http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2016/09022016/index.php "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 6, 20168 yr Not sure if this has been shared on here yet. I was up late and was curious if anything would show up on Google if I searched Nucleus. http://www.beneschlaw.com/files/uploads/Documents/Benesch_Cleveland%20Moving.pdf
October 6, 20168 yr Good find! I have not seen that. Every few days I randomly search topics such as "Cleveland office" or "Cleveland apartment" or "Cleveland construction" but I see that I also need to search the names of some specific developments. I've sometimes searched on the names of developers or architectural firms, but not too often. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 6, 20168 yr The Millennia Company has had been courted hard for the office space at NuCLEus. They have stated in the past a move to downtown is in the future and is looking for about 30k sq ft. Originally wanting to own a current building as part of a mixed use plan, that type of building is going away fast. And the same type of connection that was there for AG with its move to Crocker is there between Millennia and Stark. Edit: this was the case earlier in the summer.
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