^I thought Millennia was moving to Key Tower.

^ Milennia Companies is buying (bought?) the Key Tower and will be moving their headquarters there.

Your both right, I didn't think that was a done deal.

Good find! I have not seen that. Every few days I randomly search topics such as "Cleveland office" or "Cleveland apartment" or "Cleveland construction" but I see that I also need to search the names of some specific developments. I've sometimes searched on the names of developers or architectural firms, but not too often.

 

It took me going through 5 pages on Google before I found it.

It took me going through 5 pages on Google before I found it.

 

That's what it takes. I usually go through 10 pages on each search term before I move on to the next one.

so it seems like approx 1/5 of this is being pitched to be or could be financed via public subsidies? does anyone have a guess just what types of subsidies might those be? what all exactly can the city reasonably do for stark to help get this built?

i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.

Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.

I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

 

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.

Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.

I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

 

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

 

Am incorrect in stating that this is the 3rd of 4th time we have expected financing to close "within the next month?" If I am way off on this, I apologize and admit I am wrong.

 

But I have heard that the rubber is close to meeting the road several times, and with 515 Euclid's groundbreaking on the horizon, it just appears that Stark has bitten off quite a bit.

Nature of the beast. Check out the Flats East Bank thread.

Nature of the beast. Check out the Flats East Bank thread.

And this is FEB X 1000.

Nature of the beast. Check out the Flats East Bank thread.

And this is FEB X 1000.

 

Yes, but weren't a lot of the financing issues dealt with AFTER groundbreaking in that instance

Yes, but weren't a lot of the financing issues dealt with AFTER groundbreaking in that instance

 

I dont remember. Maybe for the infrastructure but not the buildings.

i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.

Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.

I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

 

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

 

Am incorrect in stating that this is the 3rd of 4th time we have expected financing to close "within the next month?" If I am way off on this, I apologize and admit I am wrong.

 

But I have heard that the rubber is close to meeting the road several times, and with 515 Euclid's groundbreaking on the horizon, it just appears that Stark has bitten off quite a bit.

 

515 Euclid is far off too.  Cleveland will not be seeing any new highrises downtown for a while.  These are all just plans.  It's nice to get excited about, but it's Cleveland, let's not hold our breath.

i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.

Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.

I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

 

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

 

Am incorrect in stating that this is the 3rd of 4th time we have expected financing to close "within the next month?" If I am way off on this, I apologize and admit I am wrong.

 

But I have heard that the rubber is close to meeting the road several times, and with 515 Euclid's groundbreaking on the horizon, it just appears that Stark has bitten off quite a bit.

 

515 Euclid is far off too.  Cleveland will not be seeing any new highrises downtown for a while.  These are all just plans.  It's nice to get excited about, but it's Cleveland, let's not hold our breath.

 

Ease up there chief.

i think it's safe to say that NuCLEus has become stale enough to never be realized.

Just because you haven't heard about it in days doesn't mean that the project is dead.

I wholeheartedly disagree. From every report I have heard, nucleus is very close--including some well placed sources. Last we heard from their team, they hoped to close on financing in November. We aren't there yet.

 

This is a very big, complicated project that takes years to realize in a difficult market like Cleveland. If the financing closes next month, that would be a remarkably fast advancement for a project of this scale. Even if it closes early next year, that would still be a fast turnaround. Let's have a little context/perspective, people.

 

Am incorrect in stating that this is the 3rd of 4th time we have expected financing to close "within the next month?" If I am way off on this, I apologize and admit I am wrong.

 

But I have heard that the rubber is close to meeting the road several times, and with 515 Euclid's groundbreaking on the horizon, it just appears that Stark has bitten off quite a bit.

 

515 Euclid is far off too.  Cleveland will not be seeing any new highrises downtown for a while.  These are all just plans.  It's nice to get excited about, but it's Cleveland, let's not hold our breath.

 

Sources? Bc I've heard otherwise.

I like how this person is saying we won't be seeing any new highrises in Cleveland anytime soon as if our market can't handle them, completely disregarding the Hilton, the E+Y Building, One University Circle, etc.

 

And the fact that those who are actually in the industry who have real ties to these projects saying the complete opposite. The only things I've heard so far from those with real connections are that both 515 and nuCLEus are moving forward at a really quick rate.

A quick rate? It's slower than what Stark planned initially.

 

From the late 2014 PD article that started this thread:

 

Construction might begin in March (2015). Stark acknowledged that there will be a stretch, ideally as little as six months, when parking options in the Gateway District will be reduced by several hundred spaces. But the first phase of the project will more than replace that lost parking, he said.

 

"Our intention is to open up a portion of this development, probably most of the parking part of it, before the Republican National Convention," Stark said, "and then open the rest of it up in late 2016 or the spring of 2017."

 

Let me rephrase.

 

A good rate that isn't wildly unrealistic. Those timeframes were impossible. They were impossible in the best of markets. I'm not sure what Stark was thinking making those statements publicly, but there wasn't a chance in hell of achieving those timeframes.

 

For a project of this magnitude it is moving forward quickly when compared to other projects of a similar scale in other cities.

Stark always is ambitious and talks a good game. Let's hope he can deliver. There should be no problem with people having doubts on here. Be great if he could get something built that wasn't in an exurb.

UO Forumer Smith attended a nuCLEus presentation last spring with an updated timeframe. Again looks like this isn't going to happen either unless there's some quick action soon. Wonder what the new timeframe is? Anyone know?

 

I'm not fully aware of everything that has been announced, but I don't think anything new was unveiled.  That said, here are my notes.  I don't recall the name of the presenter, but it was a guy I'd say in his mid 30s, so obviously not Bob Stark.  He did a good job.  This is all to the best of my recollection / note taking, so please forgive me if I got anything wrong.

• They expect to break ground middle of this fall.  Delivery will be late 2018 / early 2019 and they are expecting a two year absorption from there
  
• Financing - the equity is committed and the financing is just about done, but there are a lot of components to it.  The presenter talked about getting it all wrapped up soon so they could break ground mid fall.  He referenced that maybe he was being a bit aggressive on getting everything tied up quickly on the financing to be ready for a mid fall ground breaking and one of their attorneys in the audience nodded in agreement
  
• Office  - I think he said they are 65% preleased with Benesch taking 90k and they have another 60k committed
  
• Residential - said the top 5 (I think) floors are being underwritten as apartments, but they'd like to sell as condos if market will bear.  Residential unit numbers and size are not finalized, but the apartments right now would be around 1,000 sf and those upper 5 floors would be 2,000 sf.  Said they are going back and forth on whether there will be balconies.  Also waiting on wind studies that could impact this.
  
• Retail -  I THINK he said they were 65% preleased on this, but I may have misheard so I'm not 100% sure.  He said to expect 3-4 announcements before ICSC convention in May.  They are targeting national tenants and have several national restaurants committed.  They are targeting unique brands that are not in Cle that typically have high volume sales.  Mentioned they are not looking to compete with local chef driven product.  As far as retailers, it has been a tough sell so far.  He said a lot of retailers can look at tenant mix and understand if a national restaurant can make something work, then maybe the retailer can go in too, but it's hard for the retailers to gauge the market based on local restaurants.  He talked about potentially holding back some space to target national retailers to go in after national restaurants 
  
• Parking deal is done with operator in place.  I think he said "ABS"??
  
• Hotel operator is Olympia out of Portland ME
  
• Was asked about LEED/green - he said they have tax abatement for the residential so they must meet city of Cleveland green community standards.
  
• Roof - said they were open to feedback but their goal is to make a statement and not duplicate existing buildings. Sounds like they aren't changing it. 
  

I think we can all agree the timeframes that Cleveland developers announce are essentially meaningless, so we should just ignore them. But that cuts both ways. The fact that a previously announced time frame slips doesn't tell us that a project is in trouble or dead. Many of the large privately developed projects that did eventually break ground--e.g., One University Circle, Flats East Bank (I & II), the Snavely Project at W25th--had at least one false dawn.

I think we can all agree the timeframes that ALL developers announce are essentially meaningless, so we should just ignore them.

 

Fixed that for you.

Well, just thinking logically here. Benesch has a lease up with 200 Public Square in 2018, I'm assuming both landlord and tenant would not like a one year lease.

Well, just thinking logically here. Benesch has a lease up with 200 Public Square in 2018, I'm assuming both landlord and tenant would not like a one year lease.

 

Right. This is what I was thinking too. If developers have no timelines how do retailers and tenants plan for their future?

 

Why announce any dates then? What's the purpose if they're not real anyway?

Exactly ^

a

Edited July 15, 20204 yr by SixthCity

I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Timing obviously matters for a project to come together and there are of course external schedule constraints dictated by potential tenants. At some point, it may be very clear there will be no project with Benesch involved. But developers are promoters and optimists (and dealing with a ton of uncertainty and complexity, h/t to SixthCity), so the aspirational schedules they announce when projects go public almost always slip. We just can't tell from outside how much progress they're making. That's my only point. By all means, care about the Benesch lease becoming out of reach, but don't spend another minute caring about the specific dates Stark said to a reporter or at a public meeting 6+ months ago.

 

[Edited for typos and clarity]

I think you guys are underestimating the incredible complexity and fluidity of these large projects; and not out of whim but of necessity.

 

I agree but I'm just showing the deadlines Stark set. So actually he is underestimating the incredible complexity and fluidity of this large project.

 

 

I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Timing obviously matters for a project to come together and there are of course external schedule constraints dictated by potential tenants. At some point, it may be very clear there will be no project with Benesch involved. But developers are promoters and optimists (and dealing with a ton of uncertainty and complexity, h/t to SixthCity), so the aspirational schedules they announce when projects go public almost always slip. We just can't tell from outside how much progress they're making. That's my only point. By all means, care about the Benesch lease becoming out of reach, but don't spend another minute caring about the specific dates Stark said to a reporter or at a public meeting 6+ months ago.

 

[Edited for typos and clarity]

 

If you've run any business you know there's a specific reason for a deadline that goes public. That deadline may not be met but it's not there for filler or to shut a reporter up. It's there to tell someone something and that message may not be for just the general public. So to say that a deadline doesn't matter in the development business would run counter to almost every other industry in the country. I don't buy it. I'll agree to disagree.

I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Timing obviously matters for a project to come together and there are of course external schedule constraints dictated by potential tenants. At some point, it may be very clear there will be no project with Benesch involved. But developers are promoters and optimists (and dealing with a ton of uncertainty and complexity, h/t to SixthCity), so the aspirational schedules they announce when projects go public almost always slip. We just can't tell from outside how much progress they're making. That's my only point. By all means, care about the Benesch lease becoming out of reach, but don't spend another minute caring about the specific dates Stark said to a reporter or at a public meeting 6+ months ago.

 

[Edited for typos and clarity]

 

I hear you, and I applaud Stark's creative ambition. But it's just curious to me that 515 Euclid seems to be full steam ahead with construction beginning in the coming months; Stark has a lot being juggled and, as you said, these projects are extremely complex and demand attention.

Well, just thinking logically here. Benesch has a lease up with 200 Public Square in 2018, I'm assuming both landlord and tenant would not like a one year lease.

 

Perhaps so, but in Benesch's own press release, they indicate they aren't moving to the new offices until 2019.  It is possible that it may be ready for occupancy by the end of 2019.

I'm not sure what the disagreement is here. Timing obviously matters for a project to come together and there are of course external schedule constraints dictated by potential tenants. At some point, it may be very clear there will be no project with Benesch involved. But developers are promoters and optimists (and dealing with a ton of uncertainty and complexity, h/t to SixthCity), so the aspirational schedules they announce when projects go public almost always slip. We just can't tell from outside how much progress they're making. That's my only point. By all means, care about the Benesch lease becoming out of reach, but don't spend another minute caring about the specific dates Stark said to a reporter or at a public meeting 6+ months ago.

 

[Edited for typos and clarity]

 

I hear you, and I applaud Stark's creative ambition. But it's just curious to me that 515 Euclid seems to be full steam ahead with construction beginning in the coming months; Stark has a lot being juggled and, as you said, these projects are extremely complex and demand attention.

 

515 Euclid is indeed full steam ahead.  They are selecting a construction manager in the next month and want to get started.

 

Nucleus continues to slip.  Ground breaking will be March at the earliest now

^Gottaplan, since I am not a construction expert, I wonder if you could expand a little on the 515 time  line.  In my mind, if a construction manager won't be selected until the end of the year it would seem that it will be June at the earliest that construction would begin.  Isn't the CM heavily involved in the bidding process for the various prime contractors?  So that process might not even begin until early next year.

^ if a CM is expected in December, work could start as early as February. Just depends on financing, drawings, permitting, etc..

^ if a CM is expected in December, work could start as early as February. Just depends on financing, drawings, permitting, etc..

 

From my limited experience... If the CM is selected in December, I wouldn't expect to see construction until April, especially because you effectively lose a week or so due to the holidays.

Folks I know over at Benesch are still pretty excited over being part of NuCLEus. When they start worrying, I'll let ya know!

At one point Stark named The Walsh Group as pre-construction mgr. I wonder if it would just transition to them.

Especially considering that Walsh just finished  the AG headquarters at Crocker. Stark seems to like using the same ppl that he has built relationships with.

Folks I know over at Benesch are still pretty excited over being part of NuCLEus. When they start worrying, I'll let ya know!

 

I'm still excited for the Indians to win a World Series. DK if I'll get that wish

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20161128/CUSTOM/311289999/checking-in-clevelands-rising-hotel-scene-ranges-from-chic-boutiques#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccl-morningroundup&utm_campaign=ccl-morningroundup-20161128&email_realestate

 

This Destination Cleveland created piece now refers to NuCLEus as a "30 story" project.  Diminished expectations?

^Hopefully just poor writing. The article also says:

 

"Four suburban hotels, which opened in 2016, amplify city center options. East of downtown, the $40 million Holiday Inn Cleveland Clinic at University Circle offers 276 rooms and 13,000 square feet of meeting space; nearby Hyatt Place at Legacy Village provides 135 rooms and plenty of meeting space."

 

though a total of four suburban hotels are mentioned in the paragraph, listing the Cleveland clinic hotel as the first hotel in the paragraph suggests that it is one of the 'suburban' hotels. the average reader will not count the total number of hotels mentioned in the paragraph to later deduce that the CLE clnic hotel is not one of the suburban ones.

 

 

I wouldnt put too much into that article, yet... there are a few things in there that aren't totally accurate.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20161128/CUSTOM/311289999/checking-in-clevelands-rising-hotel-scene-ranges-from-chic-boutiques#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccl-morningroundup&utm_campaign=ccl-morningroundup-20161128&email_realestate

 

This Destination Cleveland created piece now refers to NuCLEus as a "30 story" project.  Diminished expectations?

 

Personally, I think it would be great if it was a 30 story project. From a skyline view I think it would lead to a denser look to the area north of Gateway. And if it takes a smaller main building to get this project off the ground, so be it.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20161128/CUSTOM/311289999/checking-in-clevelands-rising-hotel-scene-ranges-from-chic-boutiques#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccl-morningroundup&utm_campaign=ccl-morningroundup-20161128&email_realestate

 

This Destination Cleveland created piece now refers to NuCLEus as a "30 story" project.  Diminished expectations?

 

Personally, I think it would be great if it was a 30 story project. From a skyline view I think it would lead to a denser look to the area north of Gateway. And if it takes a smaller main building to get this project off the ground, so be it.

 

I have heard nothing but Stalemate about this project. Though, I still hold onto my CLE optimism.

^Why are you picking on this project?  There are many developments which we discuss on this forum which were announced well before nucleus and have not broken ground.

I'm not sure if you were around this board for the Pesht discussion over 10 years ago, but for some of us, Stark has a lot to prove to make us believers.

I'm not sure if you were around this board for the Pesht discussion over 10 years ago, but for some of us, Stark has a lot to prove to make us believers.

 

I have been on the forum since 2006 and have been observing pie in the sky development projects announced in Cleveland since the late 60s.  I'm getting good at telling which projects have merit and which do not.  Pesht was a long shot the minute it was announced (starting with the fact that it was so grand and he did not own much of the land) and I use to get a kick out of some of the discussions on this forum concerning it.

 

Personally I am no fan of Stark (I have had some minor business dealings with him), but I have trouble criticizing this proposal due to the fact that, in the grand scheme, it is not that old and major investments have been made (especially land purchase).

Personally I am no fan of Stark (I have had some minor business dealings with him), but I have trouble criticizing this proposal due to the fact that, in the grand scheme, it is not that old and major investments have been made (especially land purchase).

 

Sorry, I should clarify...I'm not saying this project is going down like Pesht...I am just saying that some of us are more skeptical of Stark than others because of his long history of over-promising in the city while actually building in the suburbs.

Personally I am no fan of Stark (I have had some minor business dealings with him), but I have trouble criticizing this proposal due to the fact that, in the grand scheme, it is not that old and major investments have been made (especially land purchase).

 

Sorry, I should clarify...I'm not saying this project is going down like Pesht...I am just saying that some of us are more skeptical of Stark than others because of his long history of over-promising in the city while actually building in the suburbs.

 

Bingo. And believe me, I very badly want to be wrong.

Because Stark didn't know how to play politics in the city. A decade ago, he expressed frustration to me about how city and county officials didn't understand his need for sales, income and property tax TIFs for infrastructure and a few other requests he had. Instead the city and county officials had their own requests of him, including local hiring and DBE contracting to name just two.

 

If Stark still isn't sure about how to work magic on city/county leaders, perhaps he should ask Fred Geis for some pointers.

If all of the retailers that lined up to move in to Crocker Park committed to nucleus then this project would be out of the ground by now. Stark is not selling this project to the city, rather he is floating a beautiful and Grand development to national retailers in hopes to lure them to Cleveland. More specifically to the city. I give Stark a lot of credit for purchasing land, and developing renderings, all something needed to entice a product to the city of Cleveland that hasn't been done in over 30 years. At least he's taking a shot at it.  This isn't an example of Stark trying to put pretty pictures in the plain dealer and sitting on his butt doing nothing. He is truly giving it an honest effort. It's all for him to lose, and I'm sure he doesn't want that to happen. Again, he is trying to sell Cleveland, and the Cleveland demographic to the rest of the business world.

Tweet from Michelle today when asked if there were any updates on nuCLEus. Not sure if that means anything.

 

mjarboe[/member]

@leerucker Not yet. Possibly soon.