Nice. Cordish did a nice job of reviving the old downtown Louisville mall into Louisville Live!

 

I wonder how much of the footprint these will consume. I was hoping for more retail. That will be the next indicator that Downtown is still progressing.

If I recall correctly, there is two phases to this project, right? 

 

First phase is restaurants, retail fronting a large parking structure, phase 2 was an office tower.

 

Do I have that abaout right? 

 

Is so, not bad for phase 1

Why does Stark need funds from the schools? It's a bit surprising because there's a pretty good possibility most NuCLEus residents with children will likely avoid Cleveland Public Schools anyway. I can understand the city's stance on this one.

 

Its not about funds from the schools as much as it is getting the schools to agree to forgo funds that they would otherwise have coming to them as a result of this project.   

More food and drink....I'd prefer to have a Target (or Target Express), hardware store, office supply store, clothing store, etc... plus, I'd rather have 30 little stores (not that Target is little) than one big place--as that will allow for more stability if that one venue fails...

I don't know if retail is a safe bet. There is a lot of turmoil with anchors struggling all across the board. Plus, Cleveland tried and failed with two downtown malls - the Galleria and Tower City. It would be nice to have a downtown mall, but the demographics just don't work for it. It's already oversaturated with major retail centers deteriorating or abandoned, leaving just a handful of power centers.

I thought that Fourth Street Live! photo was a render for Cleveland at first lol. I am excited about the Shake Shack though. I always wanted to see what the hype was about but never had the means to travel to one. Exciting! How many Starbucks would this make downtown? Four? I believe three of them are about a 3-5 minute walk from each other. I don't know who has more stores between them and Subway downtown.

Starbucks Reserve is a high-end Starbucks with a dedicated tasting room. It'll be nice to have that in downtown.

All those tenants sound promising, but I was really hoping to see more retail. That's what downtown really needs more of, and that's what Stark promised with this project. Hopefully with the addition of new downtown residents from the Huntington Building, Cleveland Athletic Club, the Beacon, and NuCLEus, retailers will be more comfortable with opening downtown Cleveland locations in the near future.

I cannot put into words how happy and excited I am for us to get a Cleveland Live. That type of venue plays into our strengths and it capitalizes on the overflow from major events going on at the Q. It's also an additional venue that will be attractive for major acts when they want to increase potential capacity. And if done properly, it can be a draw in and of itself. Huge deal. Love it, love it, love it

I thought that Fourth Street Live! photo was a render for Cleveland at first lol. I am excited about the Shake Shack though. I always wanted to see what the hype was about but never had the means to travel to one. Exciting! How many Starbucks would this make downtown? Four? I believe three of them are about a 3-5 minute walk from each other. I don't know who has more stores between them and Subway downtown.

 

7 Starbucks, actually... but as stated this is a unique brand of Starbucks :) It sounds like NuCleUS is going more for dining and entertainment than apparel/retail.  It will be interesting to see what the ultimate list of tenants is, assuming this is a go, and also bringing in the fact that Gilbert supposedly is creating a plan for Tower City that should center around mid to high end retail.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170208/NEWS/170209811/entertainment-concept-shake-shack-set-plate-for-nucleus

 

I don't know if retail is a safe bet. There is a lot of turmoil with anchors struggling all across the board. Plus, Cleveland tried and failed with two downtown malls - the Galleria and Tower City. It would be nice to have a downtown mall, but the demographics just don't work for it. It's already oversaturated with major retail centers deteriorating or abandoned, leaving just a handful of power centers.

 

The Galleria was doomed without an anchor.  When Tower City lost its anchor, same problem.  A Target here, like the one Columbus is getting near OSU, could serve as a retail anchor for all of downtown.  If rent subsidies are needed to make it work then they're needed.  Our inner city is not oversaturated with retail, rather it's dying for lack of access to retail.  Doesn't matter how abundant it is at the edges of the county.  A certain scale of it has to be present downtown for the city to meet its residents' needs.

I don't know if retail is a safe bet. There is a lot of turmoil with anchors struggling all across the board. Plus, Cleveland tried and failed with two downtown malls - the Galleria and Tower City. It would be nice to have a downtown mall, but the demographics just don't work for it. It's already oversaturated with major retail centers deteriorating or abandoned, leaving just a handful of power centers.

 

The Galleria was doomed without an anchor.  When Tower City lost its anchor, same problem.  A Target here, like the one Columbus is getting near OSU, could serve as a retail anchor for all of downtown.  If rent subsidies are needed to make it work then they're needed.  Our inner city is not oversaturated with retail, rather it's dying for lack of access to retail.  Doesn't matter how abundant it is at the edges of the county.  A certain scale of it has to be present downtown for the city to meet its residents' needs.

To me the thing that kills the momentum (as well as need in some eyes) for a Target downtown is having one (a rather large one at that) about 5-10 minutes away in the steelyard. Having a Walmart down there doesn't help the case for one either. IMO.

Louisville Live has catapulted the city (along with the Bourbon Trail) into a MAJOR destination for bachelor parties from the South and Midwest. Although we all may not think becoming that sort of destination is desirable, ask Nashville, KC, and Louisville how it has benefited their cities.

 

I cannot put into words how happy and excited I am for us to get a Cleveland Live. That type of venue plays into our strengths and it capitalizes on the overflow from major events going on at the Q. It's also an additional venue that will be attractive for major acts when they want to increase potential capacity. And if done properly, it can be a draw in and of itself. Huge deal. Love it, love it, love it

Louisville Live has catapulted the city (along with the Bourbon Trail) into a MAJOR destination for bachelor parties from the South and Midwest. Although we all may not think becoming that sort of destination is desirable, ask Nashville, KC, and Louisville how it has benefited their cities.

 

I cannot put into words how happy and excited I am for us to get a Cleveland Live. That type of venue plays into our strengths and it capitalizes on the overflow from major events going on at the Q. It's also an additional venue that will be attractive for major acts when they want to increase potential capacity. And if done properly, it can be a draw in and of itself. Huge deal. Love it, love it, love it

 

Exactly. I think sometimes people here get too caught up in whether something fits their personal taste or if they would use it themselves when the real question should be "does it work?"

Ch5 Story. http://www.newsnet5.com/news/cleveland-live

I don't know if retail is a safe bet. There is a lot of turmoil with anchors struggling all across the board. Plus, Cleveland tried and failed with two downtown malls - the Galleria and Tower City. It would be nice to have a downtown mall, but the demographics just don't work for it. It's already oversaturated with major retail centers deteriorating or abandoned, leaving just a handful of power centers.

 

The Galleria was doomed without an anchor.  When Tower City lost its anchor, same problem.  A Target here, like the one Columbus is getting near OSU, could serve as a retail anchor for all of downtown.  If rent subsidies are needed to make it work then they're needed.  Our inner city is not oversaturated with retail, rather it's dying for lack of access to retail.  Doesn't matter how abundant it is at the edges of the county.  A certain scale of it has to be present downtown for the city to meet its residents' needs.

To me the thing that kills the momentum (as well as need in some eyes) for a Target downtown is having one (a rather large one at that) about 5-10 minutes away in the steelyard. Having a Walmart down there doesn't help the case for one either. IMO.

 

5-10 minutes provided you have car. But I guess with 2000 parking spots as part of the development then that's a safe bet.

 

Louisville Live has catapulted the city (along with the Bourbon Trail) into a MAJOR destination for bachelor parties from the South and Midwest. Although we all may not think becoming that sort of destination is desirable, ask Nashville, KC, and Louisville how it has benefited their cities.

 

I cannot put into words how happy and excited I am for us to get a Cleveland Live. That type of venue plays into our strengths and it capitalizes on the overflow from major events going on at the Q. It's also an additional venue that will be attractive for major acts when they want to increase potential capacity. And if done properly, it can be a draw in and of itself. Huge deal. Love it, love it, love it

 

Exactly. I think sometimes people here get too caught up in whether something fits their personal taste or if they would use it themselves when the real question should be "does it work?"

 

In fairness, people are now assuming Live! is going to be built because Jarboe has reported on it and Stark has promised it. Yet this project still has the same financing issues as yesterday, nothing has changed. Article was a little light on why this whole thing keeps getting pushed back considering she was talking to the man in charge.

 

 

More food and drink....I'd prefer to have a Target (or Target Express), hardware store, office supply store, clothing store, etc... plus, I'd rather have 30 little stores (not that Target is little) than one big place--as that will allow for more stability if that one venue fails...

 

Speaking of clothing stores, a men's clothing store just opened in the Old Arcade, top of the steps on the Euclid side. Great stuff and good dudes that opened it up. I think it's called J3. They have a much bigger location in Moreland Hills.

More food and drink....I'd prefer to have a Target (or Target Express), hardware store, office supply store, clothing store, etc... plus, I'd rather have 30 little stores (not that Target is little) than one big place--as that will allow for more stability if that one venue fails...

 

Speaking of clothing stores, a men's clothing store just opened in the Old Arcade, top of the steps on the Euclid side. Great stuff and good dudes that opened it up. I think it's called J3. They have a much bigger location in Moreland Hills.

 

Ohhhh that would be nice in NuCLEus as well, boutique clothiers. Much needed

I don't know if retail is a safe bet. There is a lot of turmoil with anchors struggling all across the board. Plus, Cleveland tried and failed with two downtown malls - the Galleria and Tower City. It would be nice to have a downtown mall, but the demographics just don't work for it. It's already oversaturated with major retail centers deteriorating or abandoned, leaving just a handful of power centers.

 

The Galleria was doomed without an anchor.  When Tower City lost its anchor, same problem.  A Target here, like the one Columbus is getting near OSU, could serve as a retail anchor for all of downtown.  If rent subsidies are needed to make it work then they're needed.  Our inner city is not oversaturated with retail, rather it's dying for lack of access to retail.  Doesn't matter how abundant it is at the edges of the county.  A certain scale of it has to be present downtown for the city to meet its residents' needs.

 

Where do the people that live Downtown go for basic amenities? TP, toothpaste, detergent, etc... An urban Target would be an easy win I would think. I would be most assured that Stark has bent the ear of them at some point.

https://www.cnu.org/publicsquare/2016/10/24/target-bets-big-urban-stores

Heinen's, Constantino's, CVS, Dollar Store etc all have basic amenities.

Heinen's, Constantino's, CVS, Dollar Store etc all have basic amenities.

 

I also ride my bike over to Daves off of West 25th and Daves on East 40th. It's a pretty short trip on a bike.

Outside of buying clothes one really doesn't need to leave Downtown for the most part.

Outside of buying clothes one really doesn't need to leave Downtown for the most part.

I'd say that's a pretty subjective comment depending on exactly what you may be looking for. Between Brooks Brothers, Geigers, sports stores in Tower City and the various boutique stores around the place, I can get everything I'm looking for.

That's not a broad selection. It's not as if people are looking for a mall's worth of clothes, but it is very limited.

 

Brooks Brothers is mid-scale and oriented to men and women's clothing for the office. Geigers is very nice, but the downtown store has a much smaller selection of items for sale and specializes in clothing and not apparel. Tower City has no clothing shops outside of Brooks Brothers for men, and only shoe stores with limited clothing apparel (Foot Locker, Champs, Journeys). For women, its even worse. Considering the broad array of stores that were at Tower City and the Galleria (and May, Higbee's), it's depressing.

 

But that segment is so well served at Beechwood, Crocker, South Park and soon-to-be Pinecrest that I'm not sure it can or should be replicated in downtown again, especially at Stark.

Will the Cleveland Live! thing be like the Fox Sports Midwest Live! thing at Ballpark Village in St. Louis?

Will the Cleveland Live! thing be like the Fox Sports Midwest Live! thing at Ballpark Village in St. Louis?

 

There's a casino in the south Baltimore suburbs called Maryland "Live!". I was wondering if that was the same outfit as well.

Like others I'm kinda sceptical on the retail side of things. Retailers are dropping like flies all over the country. Some like Apple and H&M seem to be doing well and expanding but I'm not sure they will consider this. Then you've got the other surrounding malls and thoroughfares and the proposed Lakefront Outlet.

 

A free first month is pretty common regardless of location. Hardly an act of desperation. Buildings going up all over Brooklyn and Manhattan do that. It encourages people to act quickly which fills the buildings faster which is more profitable in the long run than waiting an extra month+ to show those spots, heat and cool those apartments, keep a full leasing staff at the ready, etc.

Will the Cleveland Live! thing be like the Fox Sports Midwest Live! thing at Ballpark Village in St. Louis?

 

There's a casino in the south Baltimore suburbs called Maryland "Live!". I was wondering if that was the same outfit as well.

 

Yes, those are all Cordish developments. As is the Power and Light District in Kansas City, Powerplant Live! in Baltimore, XFINITY LIVE! in Philly, 4th Street Live! in Lousiville, and they are also doing one near the new arena in Mid-Town Detroit

An urban Target would be an easy win I would think. I would be most assured that Stark has bent the ear of them at some point.

https://www.cnu.org/publicsquare/2016/10/24/target-bets-big-urban-stores

 

My neighborhood (WashDC close-in suburb) is getting a small Target with very little parking. The developer said Target wants 10,000 households/20,000 people within a reasonable walk.  Downtown Cleveland is getting closer and closer to that number.

I'm sure I have made this comment elsewhere on the forum, but I think an ideal Target location in Downtown Cleveland would be next to the Hanna Building, where it could serve both downtown residents and CSU students.

This retail concept sounds like the blandest corporate "millennial fun" formula imaginable, so is pretty disappointing to me personally, but if it helps get the residential and hotel portions built, I'm all for it. At this point, I just want to see the residential densification continue and the retail will sort itself out. For all we know, the route to a downtown Target will be taking over the space of some other failed concept at a cheaper rent.

In response to "LIVE!"

 

Lippman: And, anyway I was just reading your final edit, um, there seems to be an inordinate number of exclamation points.

Elaine: Well, I felt that the writing lacked certain emotion and intensity.

Lippman: Oh, "It was damp and chilly afternoon, so I decided to put on, my sweatshirt!"

Elaine: Right, well...

Lippman: You put exclamation point after sweatshirt?

Elaine: That's that's correct, I-I felt that the character doesn't like to be ch-ch-chilly...

Lippman: I see, "I pulled the lever on the machine, but the Clark bar didn't come out!" Exclamation point?

Elaine: Well, yeah, you know how frustrating that can be when you keep putting quarters and quarters in to machine and then *prrt* nothing comes out...

Lippman: Get rid of the exclamation points...

Elaine: Ok, ok ok ...

Lippman: I hate exclamation points...

In response to "LIVE!"

 

Lippman: And, anyway I was just reading your final edit, um, there seems to be an inordinate number of exclamation points.

Elaine: Well, I felt that the writing lacked certain emotion and intensity.

Lippman: Oh, "It was damp and chilly afternoon, so I decided to put on, my sweatshirt!"

Elaine: Right, well...

Lippman: You put exclamation point after sweatshirt?

Elaine: That's that's correct, I-I felt that the character doesn't like to be ch-ch-chilly...

Lippman: I see, "I pulled the lever on the machine, but the Clark bar didn't come out!" Exclamation point?

Elaine: Well, yeah, you know how frustrating that can be when you keep putting quarters and quarters in to machine and then *prrt* nothing comes out...

Lippman: Get rid of the exclamation points...

Elaine: Ok, ok ok ...

Lippman: I hate exclamation points...

 

Wish I could click "love" on this, that was my first thought.

Here's an article I saw today about NuCLEus on WLA. Not sure of when it was posted on their web site as I could not find a date; so hopefully it is not a duplicate article already posted elsewhere on this thread.

 

nuCLEus Mixed Use Development | Cleveland, Ohio, USA | NBBJ

 

Located in the heart of downtown Cleveland, nuCLEus is ambitious mixed-use urban development that will contribute new energy to the city as it turns a corner in its economic and cultural resurgence. The project will offer approximately two million square feet of new space in the downtown consisting of retail, office, hotel, residential and parking program. In addition this project will spur changes in the urban fabric through the redesign of streets making this district more pedestrian friendly, activated by the influx of new residents, workers and visitors drawn to nuCLEus and its invigorated neighbours.....

 

http://worldlandscapearchitect.com/nucleus-mixed-use-development-cleveland-ohio-usa-nbbj/#.WMv1WvWcGUl

Here's an article I saw today about NuCLEus on WLA. Not sure of when it was posted on their web site as I could not find a date; so hopefully it is not a duplicate article already posted elsewhere on this thread.

 

nuCLEus Mixed Use Development | Cleveland, Ohio, USA | NBBJ

 

Located in the heart of downtown Cleveland, nuCLEus is ambitious mixed-use urban development that will contribute new energy to the city as it turns a corner in its economic and cultural resurgence. The project will offer approximately two million square feet of new space in the downtown consisting of retail, office, hotel, residential and parking program. In addition this project will spur changes in the urban fabric through the redesign of streets making this district more pedestrian friendly, activated by the influx of new residents, workers and visitors drawn to nuCLEus and its invigorated neighbours.....

 

http://worldlandscapearchitect.com/nucleus-mixed-use-development-cleveland-ohio-usa-nbbj/#.WMv1WvWcGUl

 

I cant remember if I saw it here already or not, but here is publish info:

 

<meta property="article:published_time" content="2017-01-04T15:55:53+11:00"/>

<meta property="article:modified_time" content="2017-01-07T11:07:26+11:00"/>

Just a few scattered remarks related to some recent posts here:

I don't think we should say the Avenue of Tower City is a commercial "failure."  It's a failure as a shopping destination for high-end shops but not in total.

What on earth is the difference between "clothing" and "apparel?'

I was excited to find J3, the Moreland Hills upscale menswear shop was opening an outlet in the Arcade - good for downtown, good for downtown workers and residents, good for the Arcade.  I'd sure like to see more customers, though.  I hope management doesn't give up on it and, somehow, business expands.

There are several other clothing stores in Tower City that weren't mentioned.  You might not like the style, but they're certainly clothing stores.

There are also other clothing stores downtown not mentioned - one in the Arcade, another on Euclid, one on East Fourth, one on West Ninth, several boutiques in Fifth Street Arcades.  Plus the team shops, etc.  And let's not forget Joseph Scafidi - a really high quality, almost Saville-Row style shop in Penton Plaza facing the minipark.  It had been in the Huntington Building*whatever it's called now) for decades.

When I came here in 1973 one could buy a shirt downtown in maybe 20 stores, including three major department stores and six five-and-tens.  Ample retail is the last component to come to downtown Cleveland, which has positively reinvented itself in so many other ways.

Unfortunately it's a tough market to be attracting new retail right now with major store closings happening all over the map. This article tells part of the story, but basically retail has been way over-expanded for decades, and the internet has only accelerated the industry's issues:  https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-24/u-s-stores-are-too-big-too-boring-and-too-expensive

 

There are still a few exceptions that could move the needle, but it's going to be tough to convince a lot of major retail brands to expand when there are stores closing all over the map.  An Apple Store would be an obvious boon (have to drive to Crocker Park or Eaton currently), or luring some form of an Amazon Store would definitely be a draw. Otherwise, I think it's all Food/Bev until downtown gets to at least 25K residents, and eventually the Food/Bev dollars have to run out.

Unfortunately it's a tough market to be attracting new retail right now with major store closings happening all over the map. This article tells part of the story, but basically retail has been way over-expanded for decades, and the internet has only accelerated the industry's issues:  https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-24/u-s-stores-are-too-big-too-boring-and-too-expensive

 

There are still a few exceptions that could move the needle, but it's going to be tough to convince a lot of major retail brands to expand when there are stores closing all over the map.  An Apple Store would be an obvious boon (have to drive to Crocker Park or Eaton currently), or luring some form of an Amazon Store would definitely be a draw. Otherwise, I think it's all Food/Bev until downtown gets to at least 25K residents, and eventually the Food/Bev dollars have to run out.

 

They are already planning for an Amazon pick-up store on Euclid by CSU. Unless you mean one of those no checkout grocery stores.

^Amazon has also been opening bricks and mortar book stores: http://www.wbur.org/bostonomix/2017/02/28/amazon-bookstore-dedham

I thought this was pretty interesting. Stark just paid $21.25 million for a carwash on La Cienega in LA (West Hollywood area). I saw the announcement on Curbed LA here, and immediately realized Stark as the developer of Nucleus.

 

http://la.curbed.com/2017/3/30/15133840/la-cienega-car-wash-mixed-use-development

Just a few scattered remarks related to some recent posts here:

I don't think we should say the Avenue of Tower City is a commercial "failure."  It's a failure as a shopping destination for high-end shops but not in total.

What on earth is the difference between "clothing" and "apparel?'

I was excited to find J3, the Moreland Hills upscale menswear shop was opening an outlet in the Arcade - good for downtown, good for downtown workers and residents, good for the Arcade.  I'd sure like to see more customers, though.  I hope management doesn't give up on it and, somehow, business expands.

There are several other clothing stores in Tower City that weren't mentioned.  You might not like the style, but they're certainly clothing stores.

There are also other clothing stores downtown not mentioned - one in the Arcade, another on Euclid, one on East Fourth, one on West Ninth, several boutiques in Fifth Street Arcades.  Plus the team shops, etc.  And let's not forget Joseph Scafidi - a really high quality, almost Saville-Row style shop in Penton Plaza facing the minipark.  It had been in the Huntington Building*whatever it's called now) for decades.

When I came here in 1973 one could buy a shirt downtown in maybe 20 stores, including three major department stores and six five-and-tens.  Ample retail is the last component to come to downtown Cleveland, which has positively reinvented itself in so many other ways.

 

The Fifth Street Arcades have been an absolute retail grand slam. Dick Pace really exceeded anyone's expectations there, and we should all go support those retailers.

I thought this was pretty interesting. Stark just paid $21.25 million for a carwash on La Cienega in LA (West Hollywood area). I saw the announcement on Curbed LA here, and immediately realized Stark as the developer of Nucleus.

 

http://la.curbed.com/2017/3/30/15133840/la-cienega-car-wash-mixed-use-development

 

 

that is big news and very interesting. it says its the priciest per sq ft deal since 2000 in west hollywood.

 

there is nothing on stark's website about that yet. for sure keep us up to date on it.

 

i hope redeveloping that site in los angeles doesn't take away from his big cle nucleus plans?

 

i also see its purchase is filed under an llc in the name of jacob stark, not bob stark or stark enterprises.

 

i dk what that means, probably just for tax purposes, but its another good example of how, like the dolans and like with anybody else with mega-money, the wealth is held in the family, not the individual players.

 

 

I thought this was pretty interesting. Stark just paid $21.25 million for a carwash on La Cienega in LA (West Hollywood area). I saw the announcement on Curbed LA here, and immediately realized Stark as the developer of Nucleus.

 

http://la.curbed.com/2017/3/30/15133840/la-cienega-car-wash-mixed-use-development

 

I don't think it's the same Stark family....

 

The directory of key players in Stark Enterprises is listed below the bio:

http://www.starkenterprises.com/team/ezra-stark/

 

This is the bio of Jacob Stark:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/starkjs

I thought this was pretty interesting. Stark just paid $21.25 million for a carwash on La Cienega in LA (West Hollywood area). I saw the announcement on Curbed LA here, and immediately realized Stark as the developer of Nucleus.

 

http://la.curbed.com/2017/3/30/15133840/la-cienega-car-wash-mixed-use-development

 

I don't think it's the same Stark family....

 

The directory of key players in Stark Enterprises is listed below the bio:

http://www.starkenterprises.com/team/ezra-stark/

 

This is the bio of Jacob Stark:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/starkjs

 

Bob Stark does have a son named Jacob and yes, he does live in L.A. Jacob is a screenwriter and producer. Sounds like he's branching out and going into the family business.  The Stark Enterprises website does include two different future developments in Los Angeles.

Bob Stark does have a son named Jacob and yes, he does live in L.A. Jacob is a screenwriter and producer. Sounds like he's branching out and going into the family business.  The Stark Enterprises website does include two different future developments in Los Angeles.

 

Thanks. Then I'm curious what he/they're up to.

both los angeles properties are the only mysterious ones listed. they just say residential and retail in development. i wonder what they are and if this expensive car wash site is one of them?