Heard the WTAM interview and saw the one on Fox with Stark - just gotta say I absolutely love the man's vision for Cleveland as a (still) major player  in the 21st century.  Some on UO have cautioned against  a "fixation" with new towers and pointed out that cities grow from neighborhoods and real street presence, which I understand, but the dynamic growing cities all have visibly  changing skylines with iconic new skyscrapers that make a statement.  The "Jenga" tower of Nucelus is not beloved by all but it certainly will be that iconic new addition to the Cleveland skyline if it happens.  And it would seem to be anything but s sterile,self-contained office tower but rather, a neighborhood creator. Rooting for this game-changer to cross the finish line!

^I agree. And to remain a major global player, we need projects like this. Skyline--as superficial as some may believe it to be--is still a critical piece of the pie. 

^I agree. And to remain a major global player, we need projects like this. Skyline--as superficial as some may believe it to be--is still a critical piece of the pie.

 

What does chili on top of spaghetti have to do with this?

^ Oh no, don't start this discussion again. LOL

In a city with lots of vacant land, skyscraper just makes us feel good. It doesn't make us produce good.

There is real utility in improved morale. The downtown skyline has been virtually stagnant since, what, 2 high rises since Key Tower? A lack of cranes doesn't tell the whole story, but it certainly is not helpful to boosters and potential investors/businesses/residents.

 

Even though I think Stark is a leech and liar, I would imagine this kind of project would loosen a lot of knots in stomachs about the city and region's status. We need some, more visual evidence of momentum

There is real utility in improved morale. The downtown skyline has been virtually stagnant since, what, 2 high rises since Key Tower? A lack of cranes doesn't tell the whole story, but it certainly is not helpful to boosters and potential investors/businesses/residents.

 

Even though I think Stark is a leech and liar, I would imagine this kind of project would loosen a lot of knots in stomachs about the city and region's status. We need some, more visual evidence of momentum

 

Every time I drive past Nashville I always wonder what the hell they're doing that Cleveland is not. With each time a travel past there are more and more cranes in the air. 3-4 years ago it wasn't like this, but within the last year it's crazy to me how much construction started happening. It seems to me mostly residential as well.

Every time I drive past Nashville I always wonder what the hell they're doing that Cleveland is not. With each time a travel past there are more and more cranes in the air. 3-4 years ago it wasn't like this, but within the last year it's crazy to me how much construction started happening. It seems to me mostly residential as well.

 

I've responded here:

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24830.msg866756.html#msg866756

I'll really get excited about this project if I see some action, and not just talk, from Stark... I would, or will, feel a lot better once 515/Beacon gets a shovel in the ground.

And to remain a major global player' date=' we need projects like this. Skyline--as superficial as some may believe it to be--is still a critical piece of the pie. [/quote']

 

In a city with lots of vacant land' date=' skyscraper just makes us feel good. It doesn't make us produce good.[/quote']

 

1.  It boosts local/civic morale, raises the city's profile, and demonstrates to the global investment community that CLE is worthy place of investment--it helps get the attention we sorely need.

 

2.  Yes, we have lots of vacant land. I'm not saying we need Nucleus in lieu of other projects, but in addition to smaller ones. Nucleus will help foster these smaller projects.

 

Every time I drive past Nashville I always wonder what the hell they're doing that Cleveland is not.

 

Nashville is creating jobs at one of the fastest rates in the country. Cleveland is closer to the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Jobs = More People = More Cranes.

 

It's not much more complex than that.

Michelle Jarboe is currently live tweeting the first TIF debate. The level of stupidity, there's no other way of putting it, of residents comments is breathtaking.

Again, look at Amraps comment.  Jobs also equal more forward thinking, common sense residents.

It will infuriate anyone on this forum I can assure you. Can't wait (dread) to see what the next meetings are like.

Quite honestly I was expecting worse...

I guess I need to lower my expectations ?

One of Michelle's tweets stated the demographic at the meeting was mostly white male, aged 50-80. That would explain some of the comments. What's undeniably true is that there's been a shift in mindset regarding downtown that many older residents just don't understand. Their memory of downtown differs greatly from what we know as downtown today. Why would people want to live downtown when there's neighborhoods with homes and porches, with front and backyards? Why build on empty lots when those lots are needed for parking? Why bring in those hookah bars when this town needs more factories?

 

This is the older mindset which still calls this town home, and can't just be ignored away. If it was only as simple as bringing factories and thousands of jobs back...

Stark should just announce he's putting in a Higbees. That'll win over the Feagler set

Memo to millennials: if you don't want your parents and grandparents to be the only ones shaping the design of tomorrow's city that you will live/work/play in, then please attend meetings and share your voice.

Stark should just announce he's putting in a Higbees. That'll win over the Feagler set

 

and Woolworth's

Memo to millennials: if you don't want your parents and grandparents to be the only ones shaping the design of tomorrow's city that you will live/work/play in, then please attend meetings and share your voice.

 

Do you really think these public meetings are anything but an exercise in futility?  Like all these low-information residents are going to affect the status of this project financing?

^ they might be able to influence the school district into not making a TIF deal if the opposition gets loud enough. 

Memo to millennials: if you don't want your parents and grandparents to be the only ones shaping the design of tomorrow's city that you will live/work/play in, then please attend meetings and share your voice.

 

Do you really think these public meetings are anything but an exercise in futility?  Like all these low-information residents are going to affect the status of this project financing?

 

You're right, these meetings are nothing more than a dog and pony show..

Memo to millennials: if you don't want your parents and grandparents to be the only ones shaping the design of tomorrow's city that you will live/work/play in, then please attend meetings and share your voice.

 

Do you really think these public meetings are anything but an exercise in futility?  Like all these low-information residents are going to affect the status of this project financing?

 

You're right, these meetings are nothing more than a dog and pony show..

 

I think you are both correct on this for the most part.  These public meetings are usually a sham but I worry that if NIMBY's get loud enough that elected leaders will cave.

I am curious...when you have a forum like this (2 dozen cranky ill informed biased old white guys if all of Michelles tweets are to believed), do district officials in the know who have been negotiating this deal forever even bother listening or are concerned about what is said.  Does the forum eventually just turn into a going through the motions type exercise so that in the end there is a record of "public input" which they can point to or do they really take such nonsense to heart for fear of back lash from an uneducated electorate (no matter how small).

 

^ From my experience, a going through the motions.  Politicians like to look good, and when they hang up their cleats and look back at "what was done" under their watch...the fourth highest skyscraper shines a lot brighter on their legacy than the thoughts of some of fogies.  I'm sure they shook their head and offered answers to the parking complaints, but most certainly they are full steam forward (save the anti crowd that screams they are for the people)

Michelle Jarboe had tweeted that someone commented that development and redevelopment is a disease.  Where do these people come from?

Do you really think these public meetings are anything but an exercise in futility?  Like all these low-information residents are going to affect the status of this project financing?

 

It's an election year. Low-information voters are begetting us low-quality outcomes.

 

And my comments aren't just restricted to nucleus but also to the Lakewood plan as well as to other public meetings about where I see almost all gray hairs and maybe one or two young people. When it comes to publicly-funded projects, public input is required by law to shape the final outcome.

^ I wasn't at the Lakewood meeting but a lot of the opposition is coming from the "Save the Hospital" folks.  They are completely unable to view the redevelopment as a separate issue.  When I have discussions with any of these their irrationality seems to get in the way of a common sense thought.  All I need to do is ask them who will operate the hospital since no hospital operator in the region has expressed interest in it.  And they just go on a rant about what the mayor did...yada yada yada yada

One of Michelle's tweets stated the demographic at the meeting was mostly white male, aged 50-80. That would explain some of the comments. What's undeniably true is that there's been a shift in mindset regarding downtown that many older residents just don't understand. Their memory of downtown differs greatly from what we know as downtown today. Why would people want to live downtown when there's neighborhoods with homes and porches, with front and backyards? Why build on empty lots when those lots are needed for parking? Why bring in those hookah bars when this town needs more factories?

 

This is the older mindset which still calls this town home, and can't just be ignored away. If it was only as simple as bringing factories and thousands of jobs back...

 

In fairness, I bet you will find similar opposition when meetings shift to largely African American neighborhoods from the same age demographic. I've learned that opposition to change grows with age regardless of race or sex.

 

I bet Michelle won't tweet it out though.

Seemed pretty predictable a meeting like this, about a project that won't directly affect the neighborhood where the meeting was hosted, would attract nothing but a few cranks. The take-away for me, and for the School Board, I'm guessing, is that people don't really care so much. No organized opposition, so no political risk in letting it go through.

One of Michelle's tweets stated the demographic at the meeting was mostly white male, aged 50-80. That would explain some of the comments. What's undeniably true is that there's been a shift in mindset regarding downtown that many older residents just don't understand. Their memory of downtown differs greatly from what we know as downtown today. Why would people want to live downtown when there's neighborhoods with homes and porches, with front and backyards? Why build on empty lots when those lots are needed for parking? Why bring in those hookah bars when this town needs more factories?

 

This is the older mindset which still calls this town home, and can't just be ignored away. If it was only as simple as bringing factories and thousands of jobs back...

 

In fairness, I bet you will find similar opposition when meetings shift to largely African American neighborhoods from the same age demographic. I've learned that opposition to change grows with age regardless of race or sex.

 

I bet Michelle won't tweet it out though.

 

True.  Public meetings on the east-side (specifically southeast) tend to bring the same age range, but also tend to include more women in my experience.

Jeff Johnson just tweeted a bit ago that he will be opposing the nuCLEus TIF when it comes before Council:

^ booooooooooo

It's ok. He's not getting my vote for mayor

Jeff Johnson just tweeted a bit ago that he will be opposing the nuCLEus TIF when it comes before Council:

 

Jeff Johnson is a Frank Jackson contrarian and anti-downtown. This is no surprise.

^^^Ditto!

 

And He's not getting my vote for mayor either.

I support Jeff Johnson because I, too, know nothing about economics.

I get the feeling that I like Jeff Johnson more than most people on this board, but I too think he's totally wrong on this. The dude's favorite activity is grandstanding, so I'm not surprised about this at all.

I still think a majority of the council will pass the TIF.

 

EDIT: My bad for bringing up the Kid Mayor and Forbes.

 

Keeping it civil and on the project.

Anyways, back to NuCLEus... has the design remained the same?

Jeff Johnson just tweeted a bit ago that he will be opposing the nuCLEus TIF when it comes before Council:

 

Does anyone know where he got this $100M figure from?

It will be interesting to see what Zack Reed does with him in the midst of campaigning.

Cleveland has had a long history of grandstanders like Kucinich and Forbes. How has the worked out for the city over the last 50 years?

 

I still think a majority of the council will pass the TIF.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about!!! Forbes was very good for downtown development when he was city council president. He would have supported this project. Kucinich was mayor for less than 2 years. So you need to find someone else to pick on!!!

Jeff Johnson just tweeted a bit ago that he will be opposing the nuCLEus TIF when it comes before Council:

 

I have to add my two cents about Jeff Johnson and I know some will be offended.

 

Jeff Johnson is a crook and very radical in this thinking.  And he has always been a radical.  And he is anti business. 

 

If he becomes mayor, the city is going to go downhill very fast.  And the city's economy will go down the tubes.  He will make Dennis Kucinich look like the greatest mayor ever.

So can we get back to talking about the building....

There's nothing really to talk about regarding the building right now is there? This project is currently in the stage of having to navigate through a political process.

I get the feeling that I like Jeff Johnson more than most people on this board, but I too think he's totally wrong on this. The dude's favorite activity is grandstanding, so I'm not surprised about this at all.

 

I used to support him but I've changed my view based on myopic decisions like this one.  Nucleus is the kind of development that could increase property values citywide. 

 

Stark should just announce he's putting in a Higbees. That'll win over the Feagler set

 

Also a huge swathe of city and inner ring residents who aren't in Amazon's market.  Home delivery is great when you live in a secure $2k apartment with concierge service and hi-speed internet.  When all you have you have is a porch off Kinsman and a gas station cell phone, cutting-edge lifestyle trends don't necessarily apply.  Those people might not be thrilled about subsidizing another development that only sells expensive drinks. 

^ Although, these developments that include hotel and other services do create jobs for people living off Kinsman.  Albeit , low wage jobs, but a job is better than no job.

I used to support him but I've changed my view based on myopic decisions like this one.  Nucleus is the kind of development that could increase property values citywide. 

 

I am actually thinking this whole deal is a shell game.  Pulling tenants from one building to put them in another, with little actual "ADD" to the city other than a new addition to the skyline.