2 hours ago, simplythis said:

Isn't there a session scheduled for 12/6/18. So if it got referred that hearing is today?

 

There's a full Senate session scheduled today but no Ways & Means Committee meeting scheduled yet. The committee refers legislation to the Senate floor, not the full Senate.

 

20 minutes ago, tastybunns said:

You know, If only people could be able to vote alongside politicians in ways and means, and even city planning commissions we would have a denser Cleveland, with many vacant buildings. There's a reason why we have surface lots. I'm sure there would be much oversight on tax credits. I'm afraid if the people had a voice in TIF and subsidy markets, we would be bankrupt.

 

Yes, there is a reason we have surface lots. Because we tax buildings, not just land. And we spend 97% of Ohio transportation tax money on roads to make driving cheaper and faster, not to improve transit that would make those surface lots unnecessary (FYI: 5 daily round trip commuter trains per day on five regional rail routes out of downtown Cleveland would eliminate the need for all surface parking lots). Change these things and more employers would be located in the core city. Those are some of the pro-urban policy votes I would take, rather than the pro-sprawl/rural votes that are made instead.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 20186 yr by KJP

Back on topic... There WILL be another Ways & Means Committee hearing. If HB469 doesn't get referred to the floor at this meeting, there's no way it will have enough time to pass this session.

 

Wednesday, December 12, 2018

9:00 AM

South Hearing Room

Agenda

 

Sub. H. B. No. 469

Schuring, Patton

Grant tax credit for transformational mixed use development

4th Hearing,
Proponent/Opponent/
Interested Party

Fingers crossed!  I want to see another crane in the sky!

Interesting that Stark said nothing of the tax credit legislation pending before the state. Wonder if that means they don't think it will pass this session, or perhaps their revised plan no longer requires it? They didn't even testify for the legislation.

 

The timeline for nuCLEus, a block-wide development slated to include offices, apartments and garage parking, is unclear. “We’re still working with the city and the county, finalizing the private-public partnership,” Stark said, alluding to long-running discussions about closing funding gaps.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2018/12/shake-shack-lines-up-downtown-cleveland-location-at-garfield-building.html

So who will repace Shake Shack at Nucleus?

It appears that Bob Stark (Stark Enterprises) and Ryan Sommers (Project Management Consultants) testified (or submitted testimony) as proponents at today's Ways and Means Committee meeting.  Not sure what action came of that meeting yet.

Unfortunately, no action was taken. Chances of it passing this session are now very slim.

 

EDIT: Stark & Sommers only gave oral testimony. No written testimony. So there's no record of what they said. The committee doesn't televise their meetings either. Thus I was forced to ask the chairman's staff lots of questions by e-mail and phone. They actually started getting angry with me and said I should attend committee meetings, so I yelled at them to broadcast their meetings so I wouldn't have to drive 4-5 hours round trip and incur the cost of 250 miles driven and pay someone to take my son to kindergarten. The balls on these political schmucks! 

 

Anyway....the likely death of this bill (apparently because the Koch Brothers came out against it at the last minute) probably explains why Ezra Stark made no mention of it in his comments in that article I posted yesterday.

Edited December 12, 20186 yr by KJP

I feel it’s 100% safe to say this project is dead and was really only a pipe dream from the start 

7 hours ago, KJP said:

Unfortunately, no action was taken. Chances of it passing this session are now very slim.

 

EDIT: Stark & Sommers only gave oral testimony. No written testimony. So there's no record of what they said. The committee doesn't televise their meetings either. Thus I was forced to ask the chairman's staff lots of questions by e-mail and phone. They actually started getting angry with me and said I should attend committee meetings, so I yelled at them to broadcast their meetings so I wouldn't have to drive 4-5 hours round trip and incur the cost of 250 miles driven and pay someone to take my son to kindergarten. The balls on these political schmucks! 

 

Anyway....the likely death of this bill (apparently because the Koch Brothers came out against it at the last minute) probably explains why Ezra Stark made no mention of it in his comments in that article I posted yesterday.

 

Even if it doesn't pass in this session, can it be revived in the new year?  From what I gathered, there was very little opposition to the bill until the end and even then the supporters far outweighed the opposition. 

Not just yet, it took at least 5-6 years to get Beacon up. Stark has some resilience with holding onto projects.

The Koch Brothers?  What the f@#$? 

1 hour ago, PAZUZU said:

I feel it’s 100% safe to say this project is dead and was really only a pipe dream from the start 

 

I suggest you follow this project's evolution and the Class A office market more closely. The financing gap remaining for the office component and a good portion of the retail isn't that large. I suspect that's why Stark didn't mention the proposed tax credit in the article above. But I understand that MJ has an article coming soon on this, and we'll find out more soon.

 

?

Quote

 But I understand that MJ has an article coming soon on this, and we'll find out more soon.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 20186 yr by freefourur

I wonder what will be built first, Nucleus, or Pesht?

Your brother's Fortune 500 employer hasn't built more than a shed in downtown Cleveland since the Indians last championship. They've been in the same headquarters building for 87 years! Stark already has their hometown investment resume beat with Beacon.

 

Edited December 13, 20186 yr by KJP

Look how long it took Schofield to happen... heck look how long it look John Hartness Brown to happen!!!  And these are existing buildings. On the flip side, the Beacon reappeared and began quickly compared to these, but talk on a tower there went back years.  Nucleus is infinitely more complex.  As has been said so many times these things take a lonnnggg time from announcement to completion. Often there are years of silence in between. Only time will tell! 

Agreed only time will tell. I just don’t believe Stark though, he seems like a big talker. I feel the only projects he gets completed is when someone else’s name attached to it as well. Just like the Beacon, correct?

Just like J-Dek with nuCLEus?

KJP:  What will the final outcome of HB469 be after 4 hearings. I am hoping for a positive turn of events.

As I wrote earlier, the Ways & Means Committee on Wednesday didn't refer to bill to the floor for a vote by the full Senate. I'm afraid that time is running/has run out this session. Michelle Jarboe at the PD is trying to figure out what happened and how it might impact nuCLEus. Hopefully she will have an article soon.

Edited December 14, 20186 yr by KJP

I don't trust anything Stark promises - not with that fiasco whereby a multi-block mega-mixed use development was the go in the WRehouse District and not one iota of it materialized.

 

As for NuCleus to take shape, the more like something one might see in Toronto the better, as fas as I'm concerned.

If the bill doesn't pass then expect a scaled back version, and expect several phases to the issue.

Hopefully the refurbishment of Quickens Loans Arena will serve as a catalyst for this ambitious project. Would love to see Prospect Avenue be built up next after the Euclid Corridor revitalization is nearing completion. 

1 minute ago, shack said:

Hopefully the refurbishment of Quickens Loans Arena will serve as a catalyst for this ambitious project. Would love to see Prospect Avenue be built up next after the Euclid Corridor revitalization is nearing completion. 

It wouldn't take much--and thankfully there are many more buildings on Prospect out towards 55th that survived demolition compared to Euclid! 

6 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

It wouldn't take much--and thankfully there are many more buildings on Prospect out towards 55th that survived demolition compared to Euclid! 

I would be happy to see it filled up to the inner belt highway during my lifetime.

Just got a note from the Ways & Means Committee. No more meetings for the rest of the year/session. That kills the transformational tax credit after it had passed the House 91-0 this summer. Bizarre.

 

After the school district wouldn't play ball and now the State Senate fumbled the ball, Stark has to be wondering why he should continue to invest in this city and state. He ran into the same unwillingness to innovate with Pesht when he asked for a TIF from the city and county based on property, income and sales taxes to support the infrastructure necessary to build it.

Edited December 17, 20186 yr by KJP

Does this mean this project is DOA or can the ways & means committee pick this up in January?

Don't know. @mjarboe says she's working on an article to find out the back story of what happened. 

Maybe Stark should try smaller projects that don't require an unusual amount of public subsidy.

10 minutes ago, Mendo said:

Maybe Stark should try smaller projects that don't require an unusual amount of public subsidy.

 

Stark might curl up and die! ?  At least he could pursue his grand visions in more bite-sized pieces in what has historically been a stagnant economy until lately. But developers like to live to see their visions become reality. Maybe he should move to Toronto?

well look at least he'll make money on all the parking lots he owns at the site now, right?

 

BTW, love the new signature that KJP has!

2 hours ago, simplythis said:

Does this mean this project is DOA or can the ways & means committee pick this up in January?

I am pretty sure that the bill is dead if it does not pass this legislative session.  It will have to be resubmitted in the new legislative session and everything starts from scratch, including a vote again in the House.

 

I am really looking forward to Michelle's article.  It passed the house 91-0 and was sailing through committee in the Senate with very little "public" opposition and only one minor amendment in a generally business friendly body, and then out of nowhere it is dropped without a full vote of the Senate. 

3 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I am pretty sure that the bill is dead if it does not pass this legislative session.  It will have to be resubmitted in the new legislative session and everything starts from scratch, including a vote again in the House.

 

I am really looking forward to Michelle's article.  It passed the house 91-0 and was sailing through committee in the Senate with very little "public" opposition and only one minor amendment in a generally business friendly body, and then out of nowhere it is dropped without a full vote of the Senate. 

 

Stark didn't have his bag man deliver the money to the right guy apparently

No but the Koch Brothers did. Their narrow brand of identity politics apparently can influence the state Senate more than the state's largest chambers of commerce, the Ohio insurance industry, major developers, investors and other job creators that benefit a broader base of constituents. 

This state is such a joke.

It’s hard to imagine any surviving  grand vision of an iconic “Nucleus”  that might’ve  been symbolic with Cleveland’s skyline 100 years from now ( Starks words) with a significantly scaled -back, shorter, and smaller version of it built in supposed “phases” over who knows how many years  - what we’re hearing is now the likely  best case scenario for Nucleus thanks to the total lack of vision and support by Ohio’s state senate, the lack of a smart compromise by the Cleveland Schools and the lack of the right partnership and collaboration  between the  city and state’s so-called  leaders. This is  a complete fumbling of the ball by the powers that be - an unrecognized and wasted   transformational opportunity for Cleveland 

 

13 hours ago, w28th said:

This state is such a joke.

It's hard sometimes not to get frustrated and want to give up on being an optimist but I don't think I'll ever give up on Cleveland-for better or worse. All I'm  asking for is Cleveland to look like a Chicago or a Toronto! Is that too much to ask for?  Criminy!

 

 

 

I believe that Stark is going to build "something" and that it will be transformational. But it will take time, be built in phases and will probably start with an office component that's slightly larger than what has been proposed. And the first phase better start construction before the next recession starts.

 

Edited December 18, 20186 yr by KJP

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

I believe that Stark is going to build "something" and that it will be transformational. But it will take time and be built in phases and will probably start with an office component that's slightly larger than what has been proposed. And the first phase better start construction before the next recession starts.

I think it might be a little too late for that.. Next recession might be right around the corner!

I agree. A significant market correction or recession is imminent and many analyst predict it will be unlike anything we have ever seen (a great open-ended hedge)... IMO whatever is not already underway (or planned to start in the next 12 months) will likely not be completed in the next 5-6 years (much like the Flats East Bank project that was on hold for half a decade). Additionally, I have been skeptical that the passing of HB469 would actually get this project going... I understand there is an "enticing" tax credit, but more important than the credit is the rate of return on the investment and I'm not sure that the NuCLEus project would yield a high rate of return. Reckless speculation here, but I am curious if they checked in with the investment groups at Progressive, Nationwide and American Financial Group (the largest insurance companies in Ohio) and there was no real appetite for any investment.

 

It pains me to say it, but NuCLEus will likely be filed away with our pictures of the other skyscrapers that were never realized... Happy Holidays! 

It is too simple to blame "the state" for this development not moving forward. State government does not typically get involved with real estate development the same way that local governments do, and even the most impactful developments with the strongest political support should not expect to get the same floor time or consideration in the General Assembly as they should at their local city council. The state has many responsibilities and the General Assembly needs to focus on broad statewide needs. That's why you generally see the state create programs rather than specific incentives. Although this transformative credit was sold as a program, it was tailor-made to Nucleus just like the catalytic historic credit was tailored to the May Company rehab. There are good arguments to be made that these types of special set-asides may not be the best public policy, even if the projects do have a transformational or catalytic impact at the end of the day.

 

We also have the context of a changing executive branch, and many bills not moving forward because the legislature wants to coordinate with the new administration.

I know many of you disagree with me, and you might be right - but Stark barked about this project far too much with way too many variables still outstanding. 

 

Other projects are getting done in the state right now, and three 20+ story buildings will have been completed in 2018 and 2019 in Cleveland alone (Beacon [Also Stark btw], Lumen, and 1UC). Obviously the Stark's know far more than I ever will about the real estate market in Cleveland, but I feel that they very clearly jumped the gun here. Promising much before knowing if that promise was even feasible. I was in my first year of law school when NuCLEus was announced, I'm now in my second year of practice, and we're seemingly FURTHER away from it happening. 

It's a shame because that area is such an eyesore... I'd sign up immediately for a demo of the parking garage, small building north of the garage, and the dilapidated buildings just west of the open air parking lot (which to some has great sentimental value), including the ugly Harry Buffalo, for a 8-10 story mixed use complex. Bring back that old proposal for the multi-story building with neon advertisements...

 

Whenever I bring someone from out of town in for a ballgame and night on E4, I'm embarrassed to walk past that mess.

I don’t think we know yet that this project is done just yet. Stark may not have been counting on this tax credit to move forward,

Looks like Koch Brothers didn't have anything to do with this....

 

 

Edited December 18, 20186 yr by KJP

2 minutes ago, CbusTransit said:

I don’t think we know yet that this project is done just yet. Stark may not have been counting on this tax credit to move forward,

Very unlikely... But possible I guess?

5 minutes ago, KJP said:

Looks like Koch Brothers didn't have anything to do with this....

 

Tax-credit bill for ‘transformational’ projects runs out of time, but isn’t dead

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2018/12/tax-credit-bill-for-transformational-projects-runs-out-of-time-but-isnt-dead.html

From this article, it sounds like the project is far from dead. Hopefully 2019 is a good year for nuCLEus.

Going way back, wasn't the original speculation that nothing significant would happen until after the Beacon is finished? That is what, six months or so away?

There's development happening on all sides of the NuCleus project already, so in what regard would it be "transformational"?  Stark should stop trying to be Unnecessary Superman, come up with some realistic plans, and get moving with them.

1 hour ago, CLE_Millennial said:

From this article, it sounds like the project is far from dead. Hopefully 2019 is a good year for nuCLEus.

 

What was in the article that suggested that? The bill might not be dead. But no Stark representative responded to @mjarboe's requests for information on the status of nuCLEus. Why? Because they don't know what to say about it or they don't like what they would have to say about it right now? If not, why not? Is it dead? Is it being redesigned or phased? Or is Stark holding on to an all-or-nothing approach that would require the availability of the transformational tax credit?

 

13 minutes ago, X said:

There's development happening on all sides of the NuCleus project already, so in what regard would it be "transformational"?  Stark should stop trying to be Unnecessary Superman, come up with some realistic plans, and get moving with them.

 

It could be transformational on the project footprint or the tax base because of its scale.

Edited December 18, 20186 yr by KJP