No skin off my back, but it's funny how the massing seems to specifically maximize views of the barren garage rooftop and the small surface lot that will remain across E4th Street. Not a fan of diagonal tower arrangements like this, but whatever, will be awesome to get more bulk and density in this area. 

How tall is the taller building going to be? I like the design, just wish the office tower was thinner and a little taller.  ?

Edited March 7, 20196 yr by jbee1982
More specific

5 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

No skin off my back, but it's funny how the massing seems to specifically maximize views of the barren garage rooftop and the small surface lot that will remain across E4th Street.

That is kind of awkward. The garage rooftop seems a good candidate for some use. A "green" roof at the very least. 

I like the updated design- looks much more like this will be built rather than waiting for more public financing options. This scaled down version is more in line with what was originally planned, which most of us had no problem with. And don't be too down regarding the decrease in height- there's plenty of other lots which will support a taller building downtown, and there's finally the momentum here locally in the economy along with both the Class A market and more residentil units which continue to be in demand. Remember, there was a report recently which stated downtoen Cleveland could use another 6000 residential units. There WILL be more residential construction soon because we've pretty much used up most of thr stock of older office building conversions. Theres no where to go but up from here ?

The only thing I'm not crazy about is the color scheme. At least in this rendering it seems to be darker with lots of brown and gold tones. I liked the brighter look of the original. We have so much brown downtown already. 

1 hour ago, mrclifton88 said:

The only thing I'm not crazy about is the color scheme. At least in this rendering it seems to be darker with lots of brown and gold tones. I liked the brighter look of the original. We have so much brown downtown already. 

 

Seriously!!  What is with Stark and their obsession with various shades of brown?!?  The Beacon and now Nucleus.  Rusty colored buildings do not help brighten up a very cloudy and gray city.  I like what Toronto has done with an emphasis on light-colored glass.  It makes the city seem so much brighter and alive in person.  Look, we have a city's worth of brown with 200 Public Square, we don't need any more!!  Ughhhhh

Speaking of, if you guys could reclad 200 Public Square with any material and in any color, what would they be?

I just threw up in my mouth. Starks color pallet needs an update.

24 minutes ago, Stormtrek said:

Speaking of, if you guys could reclad 200 Public Square with any material and in any color, what would they be?

 

Something like the Citi building in Queens would be fine.  I really think Cleveland is missing a tall (top 4 tall) all glass clad building.  The Lumen is going to look great.  Public Square needs a bigger version of that.  I thought the original Nucleus design would have been great.  I realize not everyone was a huge fan of the design but I thought it was ambitious (especially for a Midwestern city).  I wish Cleveland would get back to being a trendsetting/iconic city as far as architecture goes.  Stop it with the brown boxes!! 

I think it'd look much better with this sort of color scheme. Like NYC Boomerang mentioned; Cleveland needs brighter buildings like Toronto to make it feel more alive. 

I don't know if Stark can get this started by August but he does have the financing to get it started and that's what's most important here. I believe it will happen because Stark is at a convergence of a project that has shrunk and a market that has grown.

Edited March 8, 20196 yr by KJP

What a coincidence these renderings came out the weekend before SB 39 goes to the Senate Finance Committee. ?

 

The massing that "leaked" in January had 8 floors of parking and 14 floors each of residential and office. The final renderings are 6 floors of parking and 16 floors of office and residential (not counting retail and amenity levels). That's a better programming mix, IMO. And to put things in perspective, nuCLEus will be roughly the size of Flats East Bank phases 1 and 2 combined.

I really like this latest and smaller proposal of nuCLEus. This is much more sustainable given the current market conditions in the center City.

 

I liked the 2014 version a lot, but really feel that this will still be a game changer for our city's long overlooked skyline.

Two 24-story building's atop a 6-story pedestal is definitely going to enhance and densify the way our skyline appears, particularly from the Innerbelt approach as motorists stream north into the city.

 

Frankly, I am just happy to see this moving forward now that it's actually doable.

 

?

 

4 hours ago, jbee1982 said:

How tall is the taller building going to be? I like the design, just wish the office tower was thinner and a little taller.  ?

 

The article says the office building will be around 350 feet, about the same height as the Beacon.

Edited March 8, 20196 yr by Mendo

1 hour ago, NYC Boomerang said:

 

Something like the Citi building in Queens would be fine.  I really think Cleveland is missing a tall (top 4 tall) all glass clad building.  The Lumen is going to look great.  Public Square needs a bigger version of that.  I thought the original Nucleus design would have been great.  I realize not everyone was a huge fan of the design but I thought it was ambitious (especially for a Midwestern city).  I wish Cleveland would get back to being a trendsetting/iconic city as far as architecture goes.  Stop it with the brown boxes!! 

 

Agreed. It's unfortunate that 2 of our Big 3 are victims of the Postmodernism color palette. As much as I like the design of Key Tower and 200 Public Square, they can look quite drab in Cleveland weather. However I really love how the skinny side of 200 Public Square looks kind of Art Deco-like when lit up at night.

 

I know I am the minority here, but I do not feel Cleveland's skyline is that drab. I actually like the different architectural styles present i our downtown. I think the only drab area is definitely the Malls. Our downtown is not quite as colorful as Pitt's, but both cities certainly pack a punch in terms of iconic, powerful towers. I like a mix of all glass, but even a city as impressive as Toronto has a sort of monolithic glass feel. Too much IMO. And at least we don't have the Chicago issue (land of the beige precast).

Whom is the architect for this new design proposal?  

19 minutes ago, YO to the CLE said:

I know I am the minority here, but I do not feel Cleveland's skyline is that drab. I actually like the different architectural styles present i our downtown. I think the only drab area is definitely the Malls. Our downtown is not quite as colorful as Pitt's, but both cities certainly pack a punch in terms of iconic, powerful towers. I like a mix of all glass, but even a city as impressive as Toronto has a sort of monolithic glass feel. Too much IMO. And at least we don't have the Chicago issue (land of the beige precast).

 

It's not too drab as a whole, especially when viewed from the north where more of Cleveland's brighter buildings are showcased. One of my favorite things to do in Voinovich Park is enjoying the skyline ? 

^ I too, love the Voinovich view of the skyline. Looks like a new and forward looking city. 

 

Perspective experts: will these towers be visible from the lake? 

12 hours ago, mrclifton88 said:

"New nuCLEus plan is scaled-back version of original design"

 

After numerous stops and starts, the much-anticipated nuCLEus project in downtown Cleveland is again moving forward, but this time in a scaled-down version.  ...   Instead, developer Stark Enterprises of Cleveland, with joint-venture partner J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon, is proposing a pair of 24-story towers, one about 40 feet taller than the other, that would sit atop a six-floor parking garage. Below the parking garage, on the ground floor, would be 80,000 square feet of retail space, with a pedestrian laneway between the two buildings.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/03/new-nucleus-plan-is-scaled-back-version-of-original-design.html

 

 

 

This is way better.   I'm normally one who prefers the fifty story building over two twentyfives, but was a big non-fan of the jenga-favela look and doubly so of it taking a prominent spot in the skyline.   

 

I wonder if the lot operators fight the garage aspect again, or did the city learn its lesson from the Progressive cancellation.

I will miss Mr. Alberts pink suits dearly!

I'm glad the alley is staying as apart of the redesign. It does look like it can be dated in a decade or so. I also enjoy the screen staying, gives a big city feel imo as well. Speaking of which I'm not too bummed out about the shorter tower when viewed from the Q it fits better and will fit better with the surrounding buildings. Interestingly enough they went with a glass design that matches the Q renovations, I wonder if that is just for the renderings or that is what it will truly look like.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/03/new-nucleus-plan-is-scaled-back-version-of-original-design.html

Edited March 8, 20196 yr by MyPhoneDead

1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I'm glad the alley is staying as apart of the redesign. It does look like it can be dated in a decade or so. I also enjoy the screen staying, gives a big city feel imo as well. Speaking of which I'm not too bummed out about the shorter tower when viewed from the Q it fits better and will fit better with the surrounding buildings. Interestingly enough they went with a glass design that matches the Q renovations, I wonder if that is just for the renderings or that is what it will truly look like.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/03/new-nucleus-plan-is-scaled-back-version-of-original-design.html

 

Is that the parking garage above the first floor of retail? If so... gross. I hope they cover it with vines or something else tasteful.

Edited March 8, 20196 yr by ASP1984

Yes Mr. Stark please include condos.

1 minute ago, Florida Guy said:

Yes Mr. Stark please include condos.

 

I was hoping we'd see that as part of the reduction - doesn't look that way though. 

 

That's honestly my only gripe with this revised version, I think it looks great. 

36 minutes ago, ASP1984 said:

 

Is that the parking garage above the first floor of retail? If so... gross. I hope they cover it with vines or something else tasteful.

Yes that is the only thing that I really don’t like about the new redesign! I think having the sights and noise of a parking garage on all sides would greatly hurt the feel of this alley. Hopefully they find a way to cover it.

Edited March 8, 20196 yr by cle_guy90

This angle looks great! They really went for a NYC feel in this rendering.

I'm honestly in love with this design. Wow.

I think it looks great.  Perfectly scaled.  The color blends in too, and personally I love the bronze theme we have going.

Based on initial feedback, this is the best version of nuCLEus we've seen yet. After the accidentally-leaked renderings in January, I recall a spokesperson responding that they had gone through something like "several hundred" potential designs. I'd love to see some of those!

2 hours ago, cle_guy90 said:

Yes that is the only thing that I really don’t like about the new redesign! I think having the sights and noise of a parking garage on all sides would greatly hurt the feel of this alley. Hopefully they find a way to cover it.

 

I suspect they will.   The retail on the first floor will minimize the impact of the garage on the surroundings.   

 

Frankly, I would have liked to see first floor retail and a parking garage in Key Tower.   My only two quibbles with the design I otherwise love are no observation deck and I would have liked to see it break the 1,000 foot mark.   A few floors of garage would have done that.   

Highly Anticipated nuCLEus Submits Schematic Design for City Approval

 

Stark Enterprises is pleased to announce that after years of hard work, the highly anticipated mixed-use development plan for nuCLEus was submitted today to the City of Cleveland for schematic design approval. Upon approval, this would propel the project forward with a target groundbreaking date of August 2019.

Since the project’s beginning in 2014, Stark Enterprises’ CEO and poet developer, Bob Stark, envisioned a new 21st-century focal point and connector for Downtown Cleveland.

 

The nuCLEus plan creates two parallel towers with 80,000 sq. feet of commercial space, 350,000 sq. feet of residential space and 400,000 sq. feet of Class-A office space. The mixed-use plan for nuCLEus has two distinctive towers, both containing 24 floors. The 1st tower will consist of residential units capping out at 310 ft tall and the 2nd tower will consist of efficient Class-A office space above retail, social gathering spaces, dining, entertainment, and parking capping out at 353 feet tall.

 

https://starkenterprises.com/highly-anticipated-nucleus-submits-schematic-design-for-city-approval/?fbclid=IwAR1r8zf29wmRcPU-pU8ntpyejAnJCcP09P_V0g4Gv_uFUG0dN3M_hRS96T8

Channel 5 Story. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/revamped-nucleus-project-in-downtown-cleveland-reveals-new-look-ahead-of-august-groundbreaking

If my math is correct, 400 feet tall is 11.8 inches taller than the Lumen.

 - BTW, Thanks to whomever has been updating the Cleveland skyline diagram at skyscrapers.com (below) with the Lumen, Beacon, Hilton, and E&Y towers.

https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?cityID=147

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 20196 yr by ExPatClevGuy

Here's what I posted in my blog in January (https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/01/starks-nucleus-has-smaller-more.html).....

 

Those proposed schemes suggest that Stark had a $50 million to $100 million gap in his capital stack for nuCLEus. In other words, Stark Enterprises was able to amass upwards of $400 million for the project from public and private pledges, commitments and resources already in hand or available to the firm. That might also include new capital from Opportunity Zone funds (downtown Cleveland is located in an Opportunity Zone) and from real estate investment trusts that are increasingly willing to take lower returns from longer-term investments in low-rent markets like Cleveland.

 

A smaller nuCLEus would produce less revenue, but it's still a very large project. The new conceptual massing for the scaled-down shows that the roughly 2 million square foot development would be split roughly evenly between parking and non-parking uses. At current construction prices, the revised design for nuCLEus could cost as little as $350 million. If so, it's possible that Stark has the resources necessary to move forward with this new plan.

 

.....And I'm sticking with it! When I saw that Stark was scaling back his plan to something of this size, I became confident that this project had the financial wherewithal to get built. Look for Stark to land more office and retail tenants with this project looking more likely.

15 hours ago, dave2017 said:

Whom is the architect for this new design proposal?  

 

Was there any mention that the original architect was taken off the project?

Still seeing some comments on social media about the "overabundance" of parking in this project. So to update/refine my comments from January using Stark's new numbers.....

 

There are 310 spaces in the two surface lots and about 375 spaces in the Huron parking garage to be demolished. So 685 spaces total. Stark previously wanted 1,550 spaces. Now he wants 1,300. That's a net gain of 665 spaces above the spaces currently on-site, for the addition of about 1.2 million square feet of usable space (offices, residential, retail, etc).

 

Cleveland's building code outside of downtown requires 1 parking space for every 100 square feet of gross floor area, plus 1 for every 3 employees. By my math, that's about 13,000 spaces. So on that score, this development is vastly under-parked.

I was adraid this would happen.  The project was just too exciting to trust....  With the Warehouse District, StArk's multi-block extravagabza fizzled down to ZERO.

7 hours ago, cle_guy90 said:

Yes that is the only thing that I really don’t like about the new redesign! I think having the sights and noise of a parking garage on all sides would greatly hurt the feel of this alley. Hopefully they find a way to cover it.

 

I'm surprised the lane-way doesn't incorporate linear buildings with garage behind, at least on the residential side of the development. Seems like it would be ideal place to have balconies and such. 

41 minutes ago, lafont said:

I was adraid this would happen.  The project was just too exciting to trust....  With the Warehouse District, StArk's multi-block extravagabza fizzled down to ZERO.

 

By the end of 2021 Stark will have added 3 buildings over 20-stories to the downtown Cleveland skyline. He's a gd legend in my book.

Edited March 8, 20196 yr by Clefan98

1 hour ago, lafont said:

I was adraid this would happen.  The project was just too exciting to trust....  With the Warehouse District, StArk's multi-block extravagabza fizzled down to ZERO.

 

I honestly think that this is perfectly scaled for the area. The previous build design was...not that great, and not well received. This seems to be much better received by the public except maybe some concerns over pedestrian scale. The height of the buildings will serve the area well and lots will be filled. Also, how many new office spaces have come online in the urban core since the 80s-90s? I think that this is a great project, and really hope that this happens. A 54 story building would be better suited on the Jacob's lot abutting Pub Sq. 

Yes, I would like to see something substantial there.

11 hours ago, ExPatClevGuy said:

If my math is correct, 400 feet tall is 11.8 inches taller than the Lumen.

 - BTW, Thanks to whomever has been updating the Cleveland skyline diagram at skyscrapers.com (below) with the Lumen, Beacon, Hilton, and E&Y towers.

https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?cityID=147

 

I second the thank you for the updates on the skyscrapers.com page - including cancelled and fantasy projects - very cool. 

So on Nucleus - I had loved the January 2015 version's  aspirations to NYC and other world-class cities.  But many on the Forum (including me)  commented that Nucleus just wasn't complimentary to downtown's skyline - and the CPC  shared that concern.  So 4 years later, after fears that Nucleus was a dead project - we have the less aspirational, but much more possible version, at last.  Though I'm not in love with the new version - I'm in celebration mode. This Nucleus is achievable and within reach.   The destruction of two surface lots next to the Q alone is reason for happiness. I wish the width-to-height ratio of the apartment tower had been more skewed to height - and had produced the slightly taller and sleeker of the towers.   And I'm in that camp that thinks there's too much of the brown palette in the western side of downtown.  But  Nucleus' glass should create a contemporary feel and juxtapose perfectly with the new Q,   You have to love that Stark wouldn't quit on this project and though not as dramatic as its 54 story predecessor, it should be an exciting, invigorating project for the city.   With luck on the timeline, we could again have 2 - 3 big cranes downtown simultaneously as the Lumen continues its rise. 

 

The Lumen will be huge.  I was recently in Chicago and took over 300 photos, snd I hopevtovgo to Toronto this summer.  I'm in a skyscraper mode.

well i really liked the original, but obviously it was an over reach, as most of us suspected. so if this is more doable then by all means fine — it looks pretty nice and of course basically everything clefan and others have said is true. it may seem a bit of a letdown after the grand jenga plan, but its a huge net plus for downtown. for one thing i cant help but think something like this turns up the pressure for redeveloping the #*@“ warehouse district lots. we’ll see.

 

i would just add that on the first render i see wasted space on all the rooftops that might be put to creative use with future design tweaks.

Congratulations to Cleveland for making something good happen from the original proposal. Two 300 plus foot towers is a big win. Good on ya Cleveland!  *Yeah I am a bit envious I admit..as our proposals sit in limbo...*

I'm skeptical and waiting for the first "turn of the shovel."

Edited March 11, 20196 yr by lafont

1 hour ago, lafont said:

I'm skeptical and waiting for the forst "turn of the shovel."

 

I shared that skepticism with an employee of Stark over the weekend. Direct quote (from memory) lol: 

 

"This version cut our costs nearly in half. I honestly think we had an ambitious goal as an anchoring technique for financing, and now that it's secured it seems much more manageable to everyone. Expect this to begin in earnest before the end of the year." 

2 hours ago, lafont said:

I'm skeptical and waiting for the first "turn of the shovel."

 

Lots of things beyond Stark's control could still go wrong between now and then. But it sounds like everything that can be done to make this happen is being done or has already been done. It's now on the path to a groundbreaking ceremony. Between now and then, we can either be scared or hopeful. I choose the latter.

2 hours ago, lafont said:

I'm skeptical and waiting for the first "turn of the shovel."

I'm wayyyyyy more confident that this version of nucleus is happening. It sounds like they don't need some crazy bill to pass in order to finance it anymore, which is a huge plus. It will be very disappointing if it doesn't break ground this year.