^Hm, you might be right they are proposing some kind of digital mesh, so the daytime renderings are actually realistic. Meh. 

32 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

^Hm, you might be right they are proposing some kind of digital mesh, so the daytime renderings are actually realistic. Meh. 

 

Yeah, I saw that.  I don't mind the massive parking deck as long as they execute on the exterior design and hide it. I think something like this would look great (especially with some great evening light effects). It would mesh well with the new Q exterior and their current design. 

Thursday Planning Commission. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/plans-for-downtowns-nucleus-project-to-go-before-cleveland-planning-commission-thursday

2 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

 

Yeah, I saw that.  I don't mind the massive parking deck as long as they execute on the exterior design and hide it. I think something like this would look great (especially with some great evening light effects). It would mesh well with the new Q exterior and their current design. 

I think panels of the parking garage beneath the Beacon works well while the mesh of the parking garage of the Weston is god awful. 

i wish they flipped the north side of the apartment building around so that it faced the south. It would be way more interesting to look at instead of a flat wall.

30 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

i wish they flipped the north side of the apartment building around so that it faced the south. It would be way more interesting to look at instead of a flat wall.

I agree.  The architectural stepped detail would be nice to see from Progressive Field and The Innerbelt.  

6 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

 

Looked over the Nucleus renderings - and the excellent suggestions by Forum Members.  I hope the Planning Commission reads this Forum, too. (For example, ASPhotoman's garage with creative lighting would look great!).  I hope the Commission is particularly insightful and constructive with their suggestions on Nucleus.  I know there may be a prevailing attitude of, "Hey this is better than nothing  -we're lucky to get anything at all" but I think the prominent location of Nucleus and its importance to the city demands a strict design review.   Concerns for me - I don't hate the "mesh" look of the garage -but, I don't like the expansive concrete canopy that is now seen looking down from either tower.  Could there be green space on the top of the garage  to create an attractive vista there? And the laneway has completely lost its charm from the Melbourne-inspired 2015 version - it feels like it could become an often empty cut-through with a distracting active parking garage just above it.   Finally, on the apartment tower -    I'm not a fan of the commonly seen wider apartment structures - like "Reserve Square" for example.  The rectangle- on- its- side dimensions  give it that "Holiday Inn"  airport feeling.  As pointed out by others, the sides of it look especially uninspiring. (I like the suggestion about flipping the north and south sides, too)  I would loved a slightly slender, slightly taller residential tower - it would take on a sleeker look- and it would create a better interplay between the two towers.  But I know costs are a driving factor in the design. 

 

Edited March 14, 20196 yr by CleveFan
content

This article states the height limitations are due to the planned structural  concrete matt method  instead of sinking caissons into the bedrock hundreds of feet below.  The heights are designed as the maximum for this technique.  It also shaved $200 million from the budget by adjusting the heights.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/stan-bullard-blog/downtown-ground-reshapes-nucleus-plan

 

Downtown ground reshapes nuCLEus plan

STAN BULLARD 

 

As Stark Enterprises of Cleveland took the wraps off nuCLEus lite, the 24-story, two-tower version of the project instead of the original 54-floor skyscraper, the company was acknowledging how downtown's subsoil shapes the height — and cost — of what rises put above it.

 

Downtown Cleveland's soil issue stems from the Ice Age. Glaciers left about 200 feet of sediment atop the bedrock, which means builders must drill all the way down to reach the bedrock or substitute a concrete "matt" for the foundation.

The weight of the proposed building and the soils at a specific location determine which program is used, according to John S. Brinich, executive vice president at Arbor Construction, Stark's sister construction company.

 

7 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

I would rather have a shorter residence tower that spans the overall parking footprint to cover it the garage. 

This could look pretty bad, but I want to see something more unique -- like London's City Hall.

24 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

This article states the height limitations are due to the planned structural  concrete matt method  instead of sinking caissons into the bedrock hundreds of feet below.  The heights are designed as the maximum for this technique.  It also shaved $200 million from the budget by adjusting the heights.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/stan-bullard-blog/downtown-ground-reshapes-nucleus-plan

 

Downtown ground reshapes nuCLEus plan

STAN BULLARD 

 

As Stark Enterprises of Cleveland took the wraps off nuCLEus lite, the 24-story, two-tower version of the project instead of the original 54-floor skyscraper, the company was acknowledging how downtown's subsoil shapes the height — and cost — of what rises put above it.

 

Downtown Cleveland's soil issue stems from the Ice Age. Glaciers left about 200 feet of sediment atop the bedrock, which means builders must drill all the way down to reach the bedrock or substitute a concrete "matt" for the foundation.

The weight of the proposed building and the soils at a specific location determine which program is used, according to John S. Brinich, executive vice president at Arbor Construction, Stark's sister construction company.

 

Thank you for the link to the March 11 Crains article - I had not realized that the adjustment of height cost cut a staggering $200 million!  

Sometimes I get overwhelmed on these forms.  Some of you will find a dark cloud in any bright sky.  Have we now reached the point that a parking garage attached to a major project seems to be an eyesore (the project hasn't even broken ground yet).  Some of the things that are overanalyzed on here is laughable in comparison to most major cities.  If Allen Iverson was here is would say, "we're talking about a garage.  Not a skyscraper, but a garage". 

Its actually quite humbling that we have the most verticality in Ohio, yet we have the worst soil for this kind of stuff. To even see the kinds of opportunities we've had throughout the years to build fantasy projects that were foreseen and surveyed but never accomplished is actually quite breathtaking. But I'm actually glad the taller structure did not get built. The pre-existing renderings did not match Cleveland's architecture yet neither will any supertall built completely white. But I'm letting this overhauled design pass because white lowrises actually complement these brown overtones in downtown. White goes with brown in small amounts, but white doesn't go with anything. Think about it.

Onto the garage, when I look for things that make a good parking garage, I look for the lines painted on the walls, parking stops, LED indicators that show open/taken spaces, and little to no obstacle to park my car. With the amount of garages downtown, I have seen very little to enhance these features as they improve safety and prevent parking accidents. The most I've actually seen is within Cleveland Hopkins' garages, and they're fantastic.

 

Moving onto the outer facade of the structure, maybe it isn't such a great idea to have green walls, as they attract bugs and critters you don't want. Maybe it's not such a great idea to have boring facades either like chain link fences, guard rails, or super bright LED displays that shove Neil Diamond concerts in your face. Take the opportunity to paint the canvas. I like the idea of hanging Edison Bulbs from the top floors, or hanging fairy lights, maybe bringing a vintage look, and maybe cladding the outside with something that makes it pleasing to look at rather than a boring concrete color. There's things to prevent that from being an eyesore you know.

 

I don't think many realize that the office tower component will top out close to the same height as The 9  on  East Ninth and Euclid. That tower is 390 feet for comparison to nuCLEus at 400 feet. This will be an impressive presence /addition to Cleveland's downtown skyline viewed from the south looking north.  

3 hours ago, superior said:

Sometimes I get overwhelmed on these forms.  Some of you will find a dark cloud in any bright sky.  Have we now reached the point that a parking garage attached to a major project seems to be an eyesore (the project hasn't even broken ground yet).  Some of the things that are overanalyzed on here is laughable in comparison to most major cities.  If Allen Iverson was here is would say, "we're talking about a garage.  Not a skyscraper, but a garage". 

 

Garages should  be considered a positive as they add height and reduce surface lots.   In fact, the former was the secondary reason Peter Lewis insisted on one in any downtown skyscraper he built.   The taller the building, the bigger the ego boost, and let's not pretend he didn't have that in abundance.   It's why he and Sam Miller didn't get along.

6 hours ago, Boxtruffles said:

This could look pretty bad, but I want to see something more unique -- like London's City Hall.

God I hate this building-it looks like it is being blown over by a very high wind. Yuck.  Unique does not equal attractive.

Edited March 14, 20196 yr by Toddguy

This is the justification slide for the amount of exposed garage. I hope planning board pries into this one. Especially the "Ally" technicality. East 4th is pretty weak too.

 

Since this is UO and we're allowed to armchair nitpick -- I really dislike the east-west sides of the residential tower.  It seems too 1970's hotel to me.  

 

There's opportunity for something more creative and aesthetic.  For example, rounded glass. 

 

Pardon my crappy editing skills:  Honestly just about any tweak would be an improvement. 

 

Edited March 14, 20196 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

Speaking of nitpicking—the east fourth garage entrance has SIX lanes in and out? This is the main pedestrian thoroughfare to the Q. That can’t be allowed.

9 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Looked over the Nucleus renderings - and the excellent suggestions by Forum Members.  I hope the Planning Commission reads this Forum, too. (For example, ASPhotoman's garage with creative lighting would look great!).  I hope the Commission is particularly insightful and constructive with their suggestions on Nucleus.  I know there may be a prevailing attitude of, "Hey this is better than nothing  -we're lucky to get anything at all" but I think the prominent location of Nucleus and its importance to the city demands a strict design review.   Concerns for me - I don't hate the "mesh" look of the garage -but, I don't like the expansive concrete canopy that is now seen looking down from either tower.  Could there be green space on the top of the garage  to create an attractive vista there? And the laneway has completely lost its charm from the Melbourne-inspired 2015 version - it feels like it could become an often empty cut-through with a distracting active parking garage just above it.   Finally, on the apartment tower -    I'm not a fan of the commonly seen wider apartment structures - like "Reserve Square" for example.  The rectangle- on- its- side dimensions  give it that "Holiday Inn"  airport feeling.  As pointed out by others, the sides of it look especially uninspiring. (I like the suggestion about flipping the north and south sides, too)  I would loved a slightly slender, slightly taller residential tower - it would take on a sleeker look- and it would create a better interplay between the two towers.  But I know costs are a driving factor in the design. 

 

 

The meetings are open for public commentary as well. They ask for those who are for/against  the project. Could be a good time to voice any design concerns.

 

54 minutes ago, CbusTransit said:

Speaking of nitpicking—the east fourth garage entrance has SIX lanes in and out? This is the main pedestrian thoroughfare to the Q. That can’t be allowed.

 

There are pedestrian overlays that have restrictions over curb cuts, and such. I'm sure it'll be touched upon [hopefully]?

Edited March 14, 20196 yr by imjustinjk

^I'm of two minds on that monstrous vehicular entry.  It's of course awful and will make the east side sidewalk on that block practically unusable during peak times, but the tradeoff is no curb cuts and maximized retail frontage on Prospect or Huron. Don't know how I feel it about in that light.

6 hours ago, dave2017 said:

I don't think many realize that the office tower component will top out close to the same height as The 9  on  East Ninth and Euclid. That tower is 390 feet for comparison to nuCLEus at 400 feet. This will be an impressive presence /addition to Cleveland's downtown skyline viewed from the south looking north.  

 

The office tower is going to top out at 353' (basically the Beacon), while the apartment portion will be ~310'.

Edited March 14, 20196 yr by Clefan98

1 minute ago, StapHanger said:

^I'm of two minds on that monstrous vehicular entry.  It's of course awful and will make the east side sidewalk on that block practically unusable during peak times, but the tradeoff is no curb cuts and maximized retail frontage on Prospect or Huron. Don't know how I feel it about in that light.

 

This is a good point. However, it still seems excessive. I would rather have the curb cut on Huron, which is already dominated by parking garages in that immediate area than on E. 4th where we should try to continue the pedestrian friendly vibe from one of the city's best assets.

 

^That was my first thought, too, but this project + the Q project have the potential to turn Huron into something better than the traffic sewer it is today.  I think the only garage entry left on Huron would be the Gateway garage. If you squint, you can even imagine growing interest in developing the little leftover site just south of the casino garage. 

4 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

^That was my first thought, too, but this project + the Q project have the potential to turn Huron into something better than the traffic sewer it is today.  I think the only garage entry left on Huron would be the Gateway garage. If you squint, you can even imagine growing interest in developing the little leftover site just south of the casino garage. 

 

I just looked at the plans again on the CPC Agenda.  I guess the location isn't terrible, but could it not be a bit smaller? Maybe 4 lanes? They also should add a lighted cross walk at High St like there is for 4th street. This area will always be a traffic nightmare during events (hence why RTA wanted to move some routes to Superior). 

 

Just in terms of verticality, another close height comparison would be the Rhodes Tower at Cleveland State, which is 363 feet high. 

Edited March 14, 20196 yr by CleveFan

Actually as I look more closely, is it three lanes wide and three parking spots? Or loading docks? Hmm

now would be a great time to add a street car loop to downtown Cleveland....  I love me some rail

3 minutes ago, G00pie said:

now would be a great time to add a street car loop to downtown Cleveland....  I love me some rail

 

American Trolley/Street Car systems have been really hit-or-miss except for a few notable examples. Our trolley bus system is a pretty decent system without unnecessary added infrastructure costs. They hit most of downtown attractions and have really good ridership with high frequency.

1 hour ago, Clefan98 said:

 

The office tower is going to top out at 353' (basically the Beacon), while the apartment portion will be ~310'.

And other close  comparisons in terms of purely vertical impact would be Eaton Center at 356' and CSU Rhodes Tower at 363'. 

Does anyone have or can create a picture of what the skyline would look like Nucleus? I'm surprised there are no pictures of it anywhere.

I have in the past with the previous version of NuCLEus, but I have yet to update it with the newer version.

cool thanks, So looking at the height of the Beacon, it doesn't seem like it will have much of an impact on our skyline, height-wise.

5 hours ago, viscomi said:

This is the justification slide for the amount of exposed garage. I hope planning board pries into this one. Especially the "Ally" technicality. East 4th is pretty weak too.

 

 

To their last point, if they think liner units would take up too much space from the garage area, they could recapture it by losing the dumb laneway idea and replacing it with a modern arcade with retail pass through on the ground floor, and reunite the two halves of the parking garage above.

1 hour ago, jbee1982 said:

Does anyone have or can create a picture of what the skyline would look like Nucleus? I'm surprised there are no pictures of it anywhere.

 

 

1 hour ago, tastybunns said:

I have in the past with the previous version of NuCLEus, but I have yet to update it with the newer version.

 

 

There is also this .kmz file someone created (i forget who) created a while ago to load in Google Earth:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KirSeoiLAosZGin4Cy8XjLFeGpSwwztI

 

 

10 minutes ago, X said:

 

To their last point, if they think liner units would take up too much space from the garage area, they could recapture it by losing the dumb laneway idea and replacing it with a modern arcade with retail pass through on the ground floor, and reunite the two halves of the parking garage above.

I'd rather have a full-on laneway like the Melbourne ones they hinted at, or a real state-of-the-art modern arcade than this awkward, enclosed, overshadowed sort of laneway we're at now.

13 minutes ago, Boxtruffles said:

I'd rather have a full-on laneway like the Melbourne ones they hinted at, or a real state-of-the-art modern arcade than this awkward, enclosed, overshadowed sort of laneway we're at now.

The 5th Street Arcade is really great (better as far as retail compared to the other Arcade). There's lots of little great shops and eateries in there. It'd be kind of cool to have another "mall" space like that.

44 minutes ago, imjustinjk said:

The 5th Street Arcade is really great (better as far as retail compared to the other Arcade). There's lots of little great shops and eateries in there. It'd be kind of cool to have another "mall" space like that.

Yeah, I personally would prefer the laneway concept if it was somehow a direct extension of E 4th, but since that's unlikely, how cool it would be to get from Superior all the way down to Huron through three consecutive blocks of arcades!

Design Approval from Planning Committee. http://www.cleveland19.com/2019/03/14/downtown-nucleus-project-gets-design-approval-planning-committee-financing-questions-are-still-unanswered/

I see no mention in the article above of this being the final design approval or schematic design approval. Can anyone enlighten me on the matter?

58 minutes ago, Clvlndr in LV said:

I see no mention in the article above of this being the final design approval or schematic design approval. Can anyone enlighten me on the matter?

It was before design review for schematic approval.

 

 

^ Thanks I was getting a little worried. I would love to know if any recommendations were made or changes agreed to in order to gain approval.

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 11:20 AM, E Rocc said:

 

Garages should  be considered a positive as they add height and reduce surface lots.   In fact, the former was the secondary reason Peter Lewis insisted on one in any downtown skyscraper he built.   The taller the building, the bigger the ego boost, and let's not pretend he didn't have that in abundance.   It's why he and Sam Miller didn't get along.

 

I agree.  The issue here is that so many are complaining and over analyzing the design of the garage.  I have NEVER been to a major city and heard the locals complain about a multi-story parking garage next to a skyscraper.  When I'm in other cities, the last thing on my mind is how aesthetically pleasing a parking garage is.  My only concerned is it's cost effectiveness.

What do you mean we don't care about how a parking garage looks?

The one in Playhouse Square right behind the Crowne Plaza, just looks like any other Art-Deco style building. You may have not even noticed it was a parking garage because its well hidden. Also 515 Pre-Beacon had glass panels cascade the facade, and the garage for the casino at tower city doesn't look like hot garbage because it's got a very minimalist look. Geometric, and two toned. That's literally all we even ask for. Just make concrete not look like concrete.

Edited March 18, 20196 yr by tastybunns

1 hour ago, tastybunns said:

What do you mean we don't care about how a parking garage looks?

The one in Playhouse Square right behind the Crowne Plaza, just looks like any other Art-Deco style building. You may have not even noticed it was a parking garage because its well hidden. Also 515 Pre-Beacon had glass panels cascade the facade, and the garage for the casino at tower city doesn't look like hot garbage because it's got a very minimalist look. Geometric, and two toned. That's literally all we even ask for. Just make concrete not look like concrete.

 

To my point, the focus is on the aesthetics of a garage.  I don't like surface lots within a major cities hub, so seeing a garage IS more appealing.  Focusing on how it looks isn't that important IMO (not to say that it isn't but c'mon).  It's like going to a restaurant and they add garnish to the side of my dish.  I personally could care less about it (because it's not what I came for).  If this projects parking  garage was designed similarly to the one located at the Beacon, people on this forum would still find reason to complain.  What's important to me is that the land owner is removing blight in an important part of the city and replacing it with a fantastic vision moving forward.  I've watched as people complained about the original version of Nucleus, to now being pleased, to next complaining about the attached parking garage design.  I've personally seen some terrible looking parking garages around the world in cities people rave about.  Not once have I heard how disappointed someone was of those cities because of a parking garage. 

 

If I'm coming from out of town, I want to visually notice that this location has a parking garage.  Sometimes signs aren't enough of an effect.  As an example, consider how different it is driving downtown on Euclid.  You have to be aware of Public Squares closure to traffic, bus lanes, cameras, and pedestrian crossings all while looking for parking (people from out of town aren't familiar with the city like you are).  At some point most of the surface parking is going to disappear downtown.  If I can visually spot a parking garage a block away, I feel blessed.  I hate looking for a sign on a sidewalk identifying parking.

By the garage "behind Crown Plaza" could you be referring to the garage on Huron Road that had originally part of Halle's department store? The terra-cotta building?  If so, it sure wasn't built as a parking garage, nor is it Art Deco....

Edited March 18, 20196 yr by lafont

On 3/12/2019 at 8:54 AM, imjustinjk said:

 

I really hope the "Cleveland Live!" makes it into this still. That kind of venue would be perfect in the area. I've been to a few of their venues and they're really cool. Would be a nice attraction for downtown.

 

^ yes that does look like fun idea to include. hopefully it or something like it will still be a part of nucleus.

 

ground breaking in august? wow at long last. excellent news to start the day.

I respectfully disagree Superior on what a parking garage should look like. If YOU want to be able to identify a garage a block away then you must love the garage on the nuCLEus site. I travel all the time and I've never had trouble locating a parking garage even when its architecture blends in rather than stands out. You CAN have an attractive facade and still be able to identify that its a parking garage. You don't have to settle for an eyesore. 

Parking garages used to be lamely designed structures, but that has changed. Three examples of fun parking structures can now be found in Hollywood Beach, Fort Lauderdale Beach as well as Pompano Beach. They incorporate retail components, green roofs, LED light designs/structures/animations, free bicycle lockers, mini-plazas and the one in Hollywood Beach even has racquetball courts and a fountain. I'm sure there are many more examples of how these structures are now more than just a car-holding venue.

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fort-lauderdale/fl-fort-lauderdale-beach-parking-garage-cost-20170211-story.html

Edited March 18, 20196 yr by ragarcia

I'm sure the Halle parking is Art-Deco / Beaux-Arts.

 

Also seems like lunch break for the workers.

Edited March 18, 20196 yr by tastybunns

No, it's pre-Art Deco - the same kind of terra cotta department store vocabulary that was used for Higbee's when it was at Euclid and East 13th (totally remodeled in the '60s), the original Sterling and Welch exterior next door (now a parking lot), the former Taylor's Department Store (now the apts., etc.,) and the May Company Building near Public Square.  They were all built ca. 1908-15 and have some Classical ornament.  Our very best Art Deco downtown are the Ohio Bell bldg. on Prospect, the Landmark Office Bldgs. on Prospect, and the former Post Office on Prospect.