A $360million dollar project. That's huge. Congratulations to everyone who is working to make this development happen!

Let’s get digging! 6 years now! Not getting any younger ??

Even better.....

 

 

Nick has a couple of tweets in that thread...

 

 

MORE

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 20196 yr by KJP

Just park a backhoe there tomorrow so I can get excited already 

$100 million of equity...that's a significant investment in our city.  I would be curious to know who the other partners are in the deal.  

I got to give it to Stark. He is persistent, if nothing else. This development, albeit in a larger scale, was proposed around the same time as Weston tried to pick up Stark's fumble in the Warehouse District by offering the Superblock with Citymark. Now that plan is officially dead. But Stark is still pressing ahead in erasing the other big parking crater downtown. And it looks like he's about to cross the goal line.

...and closing on the Beacon as well in the meantime!  Seems a lot of these "smaller" parking craters are now getting picked off.  Hopefully this leads to taking on the Warehouse District parking sea one day... although I have to say from the aerial photos posted recently in the Lumen thread I forget how large the parking lot is that Nucleus will eat up! ?

I need to dig deeper into the particulars, but seems like some pretty gross spin on this "loan."  If it's being "repaid" through tax revenue, it means this thing is essentially just a Rube Goldberg tax abatement tool. 

16 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

I need to dig deeper into the particulars, but seems like some pretty gross spin on this "loan."  If it's being "repaid" through tax revenue, it means this thing is essentially just a Rube Goldberg tax abatement tool. 

I don't see this as a "Rube Goldberg tax abatement tool", but a pretty standard Tax Increment Financing deal.  Instead of getting a little tax revenue now, the city is getting more later, based on the increased value of this land.

46 minutes ago, KJP said:

I got to give it to Stark. He is persistent, if nothing else. This development, albeit in a larger scale, was proposed around the same time as Weston tried to pick up Stark's fumble in the Warehouse District by offering the Superblock with Citymark. Now that plan is officially dead. But Stark is still pressing ahead in erasing the other big parking crater downtown. And it looks like he's about to cross the goal line.

 

I don't recall ever seeing any kind of thoughtful post mortem on the Weston development in these pages.  I assume they couldn't assemble financing, but would like to know more particulars. It was such a big splashy proposal right on the heels of the Nucleus announcement IIRC, but then we never heard much about it again, unlike Nucleus which stayed in the headlines over the years with all the various funding / subsidy proposals.

8 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

I don't see this as a "Rube Goldberg tax abatement tool", but a pretty standard Tax Increment Financing deal.  Instead of getting a little tax revenue now, the city is getting more later, based on the increased value of this land.

 

Well, it's not a "standard" TIF if it's being  engineered outside of the state's TIF statute, as seems to be the case. I agree that's the way to think about it, though. It's like a super TIF, sucking up even more of the mid-term hypothetical taxes than we usually see.  I guess I'm mostly grossed out by the councilman's spin that the city is getting a direct financial return on this "loan."

Edited April 30, 20196 yr by StapHanger

 

31 minutes ago, JohnSummit said:

 

I don't recall ever seeing any kind of thoughtful post mortem on the Weston development in these pages.  I assume they couldn't assemble financing, but would like to know more particulars. It was such a big splashy proposal right on the heels of the Nucleus announcement IIRC, but then we never heard much about it again, unlike Nucleus which stayed in the headlines over the years with all the various funding / subsidy proposals.

 

Weston isn't flashy/chatty like Stark. Weston works behind the scenes. Some people prefer Weston's approach. Others prefer Stark's. I enjoy both. So even a couple of years after Weston/Citymark announced their Superblock development, they were still picking up a missing parcel here or there to have site control over the whole block. The exception, of course, was Stark's HQ, where he moved to from the suburbs 12 years ago after he announced his Superblock project (ironically, Stark is the only one to activate a building on the Superblock this century). So even though Weston/Citymark wasn't making big announcements, it was active. And then it stopped being active last year (FYI: below is the last property acquisition made by Weston). I learned only last week that Weston's Superblock project was officially dead. 

 

On 9/6/2016 at 6:07 PM, KJP said:

On Aug. 22, Weston (dba 411 St. Clair LLC) acquired another property in the Superblock for its planned multi-tower development. The acquired property's address is the same as the company's name, 411 St Clair. This is the same naming Weston used in late-May to make a paper transfer of the next property east, 405 St. Clair, which Weston already owned. There are a couple of notable differences with 411 St. Clair. It was owned by a non-Weston company -- Public Square West Limited Partnership -- a company created in 1988 by the Jacobs Group to acquire land for the Ameritrust Tower and, in the Superblock, for a big parking garage for the Ameritrust tower. Weston acquired it for a princely sum of $1.345 million (the parcel measures only 6,482 square feet or 0.15 of 1 acre). Also, this property is the next-closest to the NW corner of the Superblock where Weston planned to construct phase 1 of multi-tower development. So it appears that Weston now has site control of the Superblock (except for the Stark parcel that's up for auction). The Superblock is bounded by Superior, West 3rd, West 6th and St. Clair.

 

CLEVELAND

Sales Date 8/22/2016

Amount $1,345,000

Buyer 411 ST. CLAIR, LLC

Seller PUBLIC SQUARE WEST LIMITED

Deed type WARRANTY D

Land value $600,900

Building value $7,000

Total value $607,900

Parcel 101-10-059

Property Commercial parking lot

 

Edited April 30, 20196 yr by KJP

I'd be more supportive of these subsidies if they didn't require all the hand waving and spin. There is real value in providing contemporary office and retail space when trying to attract growing companies. But this is no more a "loan" than the TIF and other abatements already part of the project. Here is Bullard's article on Crains.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/city-weighs-12-million-nucleus-investment

 

Quote

City weighs $12 million nuCLEus investment
STAN BULLARD

 

Two 24-story towers, one for offices and the other for apartments, now comprise the nuCLUS project in downtown Cleveland. The city will consider making a $12 million forgivable loan to the megaproject.

 

Bringing to a close years of wrangling with Cleveland city officials over additional aid for nuCLEus, legislation allowing the city of Cleveland to provide $12 million to the proposed $350 million nuCLEus project downtown was introduced Monday, April 29, at Cleveland City Council.

 

A city-issued news release said $12 million will help nuCLEus developers Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dec Investments of Solon meet the $350 million project cost of the project. The legislation itself characterizes the investment as a forgivable loan. release did not characterize it as a grant or loan specifically. However, the release said the investment is being made under terms that will require the project additional income and parking tax revenue to exceed 110% of the city's investment.

<snip>

 

Edited April 30, 20196 yr by Mendo

As usual, Sam Allard comes in with a negative hot take:

 

Quote

Cleveland's Proposed $12 Million "Investment" in nuCLEus Looks Like a Plain Old Corporate Handout

Posted By Sam Allard on Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 12:20 pm

 

Cleveland City Council last night got the ball rolling on what should be the swift and frictionless process of giving $12 million in public funds to Stark Enterprises for the Gateway nuCLEus project. 

 

https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2019/04/30/clevelands-proposed-12-million-investment-in-nucleus-looks-like-a-plain-old-corporate-handout

 

I get that we need reporters digging around (and frankly, the economics of print don't really allow for that pipe dream) but his shtick sure gets old.

Edited May 1, 20196 yr by GISguy

I know this is a big surprise... but Cleveland Scene is outraged

13 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

I know this is a big surprise... but Cleveland Scene is outraged

Some hot takes from the comments on the site and the facebook post:

• Downtown needs more parking
• The Beacon RUINED downtown businesses and was a major eff up
• This project benefits n o b o d y
• etc., etc.

As they say, self care is not reading the comments lol

If you don't have sufficient quantities of modern, competitive office, residential and retail spaces, you lose to the places that do. If the city is at least coming out even in these incentives, then it's worth doing. It might even be worth doing if the city, in the short term, takes a small loss on its tax revenues. Cities aren't businesses. They exist to raise the quality of life of its citizens. If they have revenues to do so, I'm all for it.

Excellent point. The city does have a seat at the table in how this project proceeds even more so if they are willing to put money towards the project to get it going.  

I think cities are taking a much more proactive part in downtown development projects, otherwise the city goes backwards. Cleveland doesn’t have to look far back in time to see what neglect looks like. 

KJP: Anybody have any idea how Senate bill 39 is doing?  I've heard they had 2 hearings

2 hours ago, simplythis said:

KJP: Anybody have any idea how Senate bill 39 is doing?  I've heard they had 2 hearings

 

It's still in Finance Committee. It will have an impact on the state budget, and this year is when the state's two-year general revenue fund budget is set. So the impact of SB39 on the budget will determine whether it moves before the budget does. And a budget has to be passed by the end of June.

Heard a rumor that a Fox Sports Grill (their competition to the ESPN Zone) is going to be part of nuCLEus. If true, that's OK with me. I think ESPN hates Cleveland.

^People in every city think ESPN hates their city. ?

All ESPN Zones are closed throughout the nation. The brand went  defunct in June of 2018

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Heard a rumor that a Fox Sports Grill (their competition to the ESPN Zone) is going to be part of nuCLEus. If true, that's OK with me. I think ESPN hates Cleveland.

did cleveland live back out as an anchor..??

Cleveland Live is out of the picture. It was replaced by the Fox Sports Grill 

looked up everything I could find on FOX sports grill...    does not look as exciting as cleveland live or ESPN zone...  maybe this one will be bigger...

 

FOX sports grill probably will face the same demise that the ESPN Zones have,  and probably before Nucleus even opens

Fox Sports Grill makes sense because the owner is a graduate of BGSU. That said, I don’t see how that’s replacing Cordish’s Live concept. The Live concept is a multi tenant venue. That part might be dead but I don’t think it’s comparable except for the fact that many Live locations included an ESPN Zone or a similar sports bar. 

The headline is obnoxious, as expected, but there’s good content in this new article including an interview with Ezra Stark.  The thing that jumped out at me is that they are planning to sell condos in this project. I know there are many forumers who will be excited to see that. 

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/cleveland-is-prepared-to-hand-over-a-12-million-loan-to-the-nucleus-project/Content?oid=30501801&utm_source=feature&utm_medium=home&utm_campaign=hpfeatures&utm_content=HomeTopFeature

 

 

^ yeah condo talk is good to hear.

 

those immediate comments tho -- yikes.

 

you would almost think people are paid to bash anything and everything.

 

funny how no complainer ever mentions the alternative, doing nothing lol.

4 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ yeah condo talk is good to hear.

 

those immediate comments tho -- yikes.

 

you would almost think people are paid to bash anything and everything.

 

funny how no complainer ever mentions the alternative, doing nothing lol.

Forget the comment section of a written article.  If you are really into mindless babble simply attend a city council meeting or planning commission meeting of any city where a development project is being discussed.

I really wanted the ultra-bold original design but, sure, I can live with the scaled-down version.  Now let's get a sign up, so the world can see something new and dramatic has been planned and will soon come about, and start seriously planning for the groundbreaking!

18 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

The headline is obnoxious, as expected, but there’s good content in this new article including an interview with Ezra Stark.  The thing that jumped out at me is that they are planning to sell condos in this project. I know there are many forumers who will be excited to see that. 

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/cleveland-is-prepared-to-hand-over-a-12-million-loan-to-the-nucleus-project/Content?oid=30501801&utm_source=feature&utm_medium=home&utm_campaign=hpfeatures&utm_content=HomeTopFeature

 

 

Sam Allard thinks his snark is so clever and e d g y, it's frankly unreadable. Blah, I hope Cleveland's alt newspaper scene graduates from him soon.

Allard gets a lot of hate, but I'd rather have somebody bringing to light how these projects are financed. The other outlets haven't covered it whatsoever. Now if you want to debate the merits of the subsidy I'm all for that.

 

Edited May 17, 20196 yr by Mendo

20 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

The headline is obnoxious, as expected, but there’s good content in this new article including an interview with Ezra Stark.  The thing that jumped out at me is that they are planning to sell condos in this project. I know there are many forumers who will be excited to see that. 

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/cleveland-is-prepared-to-hand-over-a-12-million-loan-to-the-nucleus-project/Content?oid=30501801&utm_source=feature&utm_medium=home&utm_campaign=hpfeatures&utm_content=HomeTopFeature

 

 

 

The same writer authored an article just a few weeks earlier with the strikingly similar headline 'Cleveland's Proposed $12 Million "Investment" in nuCLEus Looks Like a Plain Old Corporate Handout.'

 

Oh boy.

^ his paycheck is a corporate handout

2 hours ago, Mendo said:

Allard gets a lot of hate, but I'd rather have somebody bringing to light how these projects are financed. The other outlets haven't covered it whatsoever. Now if you want to debate the merits of the subsidy I'm all for that.

 

 

I agree. But he always needs to prove to everyone that he’s some sort of unique rebel, and it comes off whiny

Sam Allard is a product of his upbringing. I went to school with his brother and have met him before. He grew up in Cleveland in Ohio City before it was cool. His opinions reflect that reality. His issue is he makes everything personal, whether he's right or not. Frankly, it makes him a bad writer in some regards. He tries too hard to make points that aren't there for the sake of furthering his opinion on how his neighborhood and city have changed and how he doesn't like it. 

Edited May 17, 20196 yr by KFM44107
Grammar mistake

At a nuCLEus leasing meeting in the past week, Stark reportedly told those in attendance that he plans to break ground in July.

On 5/17/2019 at 7:09 PM, KFM44107 said:

Sam Allard is a product of his upbringing. I went to school with his brother and have met him before. He grew up in Cleveland in Ohio City before it was cool. His opinions reflect that reality. His issue is he makes everything personal, whether he's right or not. Frankly, it makes him a bad writer in some regards. He tries too hard to make points that aren't there for the sake of furthering his opinion on how his neighborhood and city have changed and how he doesn't like it. 

What was his upbringing?  Allard looks to be all of about 30 and he's a native Ohio City resident, grew up there, and ended up with a degree from Northwestern?  From what I can see, this guy, if he actually grew up in Ohio City, was part of the ''cool'' scene.

 

I was born in Ohio City and can tell you, Allard's not the average native Ohio City folk from ''before it was cool'' Ohio City.  

 

Allard is a wanna be muckraker, a Cleveland tradition that includes class (''rich people'' by CLE standards) and race.  Allard just doesn't come across as a product of working class Ohio City, especially ''before it was cool''.  Can't see this guy legitimately objecting to people with degrees from Northwestern moving into Ohio City.

Edited May 21, 20196 yr by Oxford19

I thought this was the nuCLEus thread, not the psychoanalyzing of Sam Allard thread.

21 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

What was his upbringing?  Allard looks to be all of about 30 and he's a native Ohio City resident, grew up there, and ended up with a degree from Northwestern?  From what I can see, this guy, if he actually grew up in Ohio City, was part of the ''cool'' scene.

 

I was born in Ohio City and can tell you, Allard's not the average native Ohio City folk from ''before it was cool'' Ohio City.  

 

Allard is a wanna be muckraker, a Cleveland tradition that includes class (''rich people'' by CLE standards) and race.  Allard just doesn't come across as a product of working class Ohio City, especially ''before it was cool''.  Can't see this guy legitimately objecting to people with degrees from Northwestern moving into Ohio City.

Oh I don't disagree. I think you mistook my comment for me being supportive of him. Im not. Im merely telling you why he is the way he is. I can tell you for sure he comes from working class Ohio City family. I assume he has massive student loans or had a major scholarship to NW. He was a real good student. 

Just now, TPH2 said:

I thought this was the nuCLEus thread, not the psychoanalyzing of Sam Allard thread.

Well, Allard wrote a hit piece on nuCLEus which was brought into this thread and with Cleveland's history of negativity and decline, I think it's all quite relevant to know and expose this guy as he crusades against nuCLEus.  Reminder that nuCLEus 

 

Allard should be psychoanalyzed as he's a hypocrite trying to continue playing race and class games, all a part of Cleveland's decline cocktail.

Just now, KFM44107 said:

Oh I don't disagree. I think you mistook my comment for me being supportive of him. Im not. Im merely telling you why he is the way he is. I can tell you for sure he comes from working class Ohio City family. I assume he has massive student loans or had a major scholarship to NW. He was a real good student. 

Wasn't directly questioning you.  Different era of working class Ohio City then.

1 minute ago, Oxford19 said:

Well, Allard wrote a hit piece on nuCLEus which was brought into this thread and with Cleveland's history of negativity and decline, I think it's all quite relevant to know and expose this guy as he crusades against nuCLEus.  Reminder that nuCLEus 

 

Allard should be psychoanalyzed as he's a hypocrite trying to continue playing race and class games, all a part of Cleveland's decline cocktail.

 

Oh, come on. There were many substantive points in Allard's piece that warrant discussion, imo, but Allard's personal upbringing is irrelevant to this discussion.

26 minutes ago, TPH2 said:

 

Oh, come on. There were many substantive points in Allard's piece that warrant discussion, imo, but Allard's personal upbringing is irrelevant to this discussion.

I didn't bring up his upbringing...but it's not irrelevant.

 

The whole tone of the headline and, as Allard said, the ''exaspirating name nuCLEus'' says it all.  It doesn't sound like anyone is in for an unbiased journalism story.

 

Regardless, Allard uses the usual and cliche general and ''abstract'' speculation points. 

 

As Stark said, ''we're not Dubai''...we weren't in 1988 either when Society Center was proposed. Btw, aren't we all glad that controversial project went forward?

Edited May 21, 20196 yr by Oxford19

18 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

It doesn't sound like anyone is in for an unbiased journalism.

 

You expected unbiased journalism?

Just now, bjk said:

You expected unbiased journalism?

Not at all, but I think some others did...lol.

I remember wanting a rapid station stop along below Ontario rail-bed when Gateway was announced and moving forward, with a tunnel to a portal at say E 4/Huron.   Isn't there already a subway tunnel there?

 

Especially now as the neighborhood  booms and has moved to include nuCLEus and East 4th.

 

At least something announcing the existence of a rail system would be in place for direct street access.

Edited May 21, 20196 yr by Oxford19