Apply for historic preservation tax credits.  That's what they're there for.

So is Stark essentially holding the start of Nucleus hostage until he gets his way with 310 Prospect?

8 minutes ago, JohnSummit said:

So is Stark essentially holding the start of Nucleus hostage until he gets his way with 310 Prospect?

He says he needs it for a staging area to build NUCLEUS.

10 minutes ago, JohnSummit said:

So is Stark essentially holding the start of Nucleus hostage until he gets his way with 310 Prospect?

Start is holding *the potential* of a start of Nucleus hostage until he gets his way with 310 Prospect

3 minutes ago, Larry1962 said:

He says he needs it for a staging area to build NUCLEUS.

They did not say that yesterday.  It was going to be a grass lot with a fence until "further development".

If it can't be demolished and he's being pressured to bring it up to code, there are limited options available. An historic tax credit could lessen the burden, but as mentioned above, should not impact NuCLEus whatsoever.

Other developers don't seem to be staging challenged.

Edited September 6, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

45 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

So we're back to $6M to bring the building up to code + cost of renovations and it can never be profitable.

 

Even if they decided to sell it, who would buy it?

 

Sounds like a no-win proposition to me.

It's 6M according to Stark (someone correct me if I'm wrong here).

 

When you're trying to get your way you tend to bend the truth/numbers/maps in your intended outcome's direction. 

Buyer beware... maybe more-so for properties which are nationally recognized as historic.  Seems as though this is self-inflicted, IMO.  Grass with a fence?  On Prospect and E. 4th?  No chance, and I'm glad the City feels the same.

It was said upthread, and bears repeating over and over. Stark bought this building knowing its historic significance. He did nothing with it for 5 years only letting it deteriorate more. He gets no sympathy from me.

3 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

If it can't be demolished and he's being pressured to bring it up to code, there are limited options available. An historic tax credit could lessen the burden, but as mentioned above, should not impact NuCLEus whatsoever.

This is my own amateur analysis of the situation, but Stark is really in a bind with the Herold Building and it is in many ways their own doing.  The Building was dumped on them 5 years ago as part of their purchase of the entire parking portfolio of those California investors.  At the time the building was in litigation and the city was winning over and over in housing court.  I question if Stark did their due diligence at the time, inspecting and analyzing the cost of renovation but they probably did not care because what they really wanted were the parking lots (I have been naïve  thinking that Stark had actually stepped into the whole mess at the time to save the Herold Building).  Stark then "foolishly" ignored Herold for the most part as it focused on Nucleus.  Maybe they thought the city was going to give them a pass on the building since they were investing so much in Nucleus (and it seems the city did as the housing court action seems to have magically disappeared with the change of ownership).

 

They let the building further decay for 5 years and costs are doing nothing but increasing.  The also may not be playing nice with their next door neighbor (Weston which also owns a vacant building). 

 

Clearly the cost to fix the violations and renovate do not make sense as Stark keeps stating over and over.  Maybe the only way this works economically is for the owners of all three buildings get together and develop a larger renovation plan.  This will of course take time and effort and the checking of egos at the door.  It might help it Stark would contribute the parking lot on 4th as part of package project (although they keep saying that is part of Nucleus which confuses me since I am not aware of anything going on that lot as part of the project.

 

Bottom line, Stark should not have ignored this ticking time bomb for so long.

It's a cluster that he owns!

I might be wrong but this building has no historical relevance..  It is the building next to it that everyone loves.  TBH when i walk around downtown, this part of the street makes me uneasy and it is such a disturbing place.  No one is going to lease those buildings and apparently they have been vacant for almost 20 years...  now i might be wrong..  please dont kill me..

Cross posted from SHW HQ TOPIC:

 

John D. Baumgardner  

Posted 9 hours ago

 

Here's a juicy tidbit for fellow forum denizens to sink your teeth into ...

 

I just had quite an enjoyable luncheon with an old friend and former business associate. This friend owns a very successful business operation in downtown and he is personally acquainted with Mr. Stark ... You know, the guy behind the ever elusive and the yet to materialize nuCLEus development.

 

According to my friend's understanding of the forthcoming Sherwin-Williams headquarters, he shared with me that S/W will be placing their NEW HEADQUARTERS at the nuCLEus project.

 

Yes, you heard me right. This friend of mine is a prominent and well-respected businessman who is socially and professionally connected to the major MOVERS & SHAKERS in the Cleveland business community ... Everyone from Beth Mooney at Key Bank to upper mgmt at Sherwin-Williams. 

 

Could this be the REAL REASON that nuCLEus has been tabled indefinitely?

 

This will be very interesting to see ...

 

As @KJP has pointed out, Stark doesn't have much experience with digging caissons into Cleveland's bedrock for super tall skyscrapers ... But, with a heavy hitter goliath like Sherwin-Williams behind-the-scenes a project like nuCLEus could actually still happen in the form of a striking new headquarters for S-W Corporation.

 

Just something to chew on, let the gnashing of teeth begin ....

 

 

MAYBE HE'S TRYING TO BE FUNNY?? 

 

But if TRUE there is more than enough room to build both a SHW HQ TOWER and a nuCLEus Residental Tower.

1 hour ago, G00pie said:

I might be wrong but this building has no historical relevance..  It is the building next to it that everyone loves.  TBH when i walk around downtown, this part of the street makes me uneasy and it is such a disturbing place.  No one is going to lease those buildings and apparently they have been vacant for almost 20 years...  now i might be wrong..  please dont kill me..

Just waiting for the right developer.

15 minutes ago, Larry1962 said:

Cross posted from SHW HQ TOPIC:

 

John D. Baumgardner  

Posted 9 hours ago

 

Here's a juicy tidbit for fellow forum denizens to sink your teeth into ...

 

I just had quite an enjoyable luncheon with an old friend and former business associate. This friend owns a very successful business operation in downtown and he is personally acquainted with Mr. Stark ... You know, the guy behind the ever elusive and the yet to materialize nuCLEus development.

 

According to my friend's understanding of the forthcoming Sherwin-Williams headquarters, he shared with me that S/W will be placing their NEW HEADQUARTERS at the nuCLEus project.

 

Yes, you heard me right. This friend of mine is a prominent and well-respected businessman who is socially and professionally connected to the major MOVERS & SHAKERS in the Cleveland business community ... Everyone from Beth Mooney at Key Bank to upper mgmt at Sherwin-Williams. 

 

Could this be the REAL REASON that nuCLEus has been tabled indefinitely?

 

This will be very interesting to see ...

 

As @KJP has pointed out, Stark doesn't have much experience with digging caissons into Cleveland's bedrock for super tall skyscrapers ... But, with a heavy hitter goliath like Sherwin-Williams behind-the-scenes a project like nuCLEus could actually still happen in the form of a striking new headquarters for S-W Corporation.

 

Just something to chew on, let the gnashing of teeth begin ....

 

 

MAYBE HE'S TRYING TO BE FUNNY?? 

 

But if TRUE there is more than enough room to build both a SHW HQ TOWER and a nuCLEus Residental Tower.

Tight fit but would work.

4 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

Tight fit but would work.

The Jacob's lot is

1.2 acres and the nuCLEus lot is 3 acres.  

A building the size of the Herold, he could’ve put a new roof on for less than 100k. He didn’t even bother to do that. F this clown.

 

6 million figure is absolute horsesh*t

Edited September 7, 20195 yr by marty15

26 minutes ago, Larry1962 said:

The Jacob's lot is

1.2 acres and the nuCLEus lot is 3 acres.  

 

26 minutes ago, Larry1962 said:

The Jacob's lot is

1.2 acres and the nuCLEus lot is 3 acres.  

Based on KJPs article it wouldn’t be just the Jacobs lot. It would expand to other surface lots nearby.

The Jacob's lot + some of the Weston Superblock would make a perfect SW urban campus AND give them that all-so-important PS address (with their stainless-steel globe). Lol

9 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

Cross posted from SHW HQ TOPIC:

 

John D. Baumgardner  

Posted 9 hours ago

 

Here's a juicy tidbit for fellow forum denizens to sink your teeth into ...

 

I just had quite an enjoyable luncheon with an old friend and former business associate. This friend owns a very successful business operation in downtown and he is personally acquainted with Mr. Stark ... You know, the guy behind the ever elusive and the yet to materialize nuCLEus development.

 

According to my friend's understanding of the forthcoming Sherwin-Williams headquarters, he shared with me that S/W will be placing their NEW HEADQUARTERS at the nuCLEus project.

 

Yes, you heard me right. This friend of mine is a prominent and well-respected businessman who is socially and professionally connected to the major MOVERS & SHAKERS in the Cleveland business community ... Everyone from Beth Mooney at Key Bank to upper mgmt at Sherwin-Williams. 

 

Could this be the REAL REASON that nuCLEus has been tabled indefinitely?

 

This will be very interesting to see ...

 

As @KJP has pointed out, Stark doesn't have much experience with digging caissons into Cleveland's bedrock for super tall skyscrapers ... But, with a heavy hitter goliath like Sherwin-Williams behind-the-scenes a project like nuCLEus could actually still happen in the form of a striking new headquarters for S-W Corporation.

 

Just something to chew on, let the gnashing of teeth begin ....

 

 

MAYBE HE'S TRYING TO BE FUNNY?? 

 

But if TRUE there is more than enough room to build both a SHW HQ TOWER and a nuCLEus Residental Tower.

 

10 hours ago, G00pie said:

I might be wrong but this building has no historical relevance..  It is the building next to it that everyone loves.  TBH when i walk around downtown, this part of the street makes me uneasy and it is such a disturbing place.  No one is going to lease those buildings and apparently they have been vacant for almost 20 years...  now i might be wrong..  please dont kill me..

Maybe your mind subconsciously is going back 20 years or more?  Prospect had made a complete turnaround, with lots of nice restaurants and the shops and hotel at Fifth Street Arcades, the County building , etc.  It doesn't have other large office buildings yet but I think it's certainly ripe for them.

Edited September 7, 20195 yr by lafont

The S-W idea for for Prospect is fine and dandy but we need something substantial for Public Square!  This parking lot in an ultra-prime location is a BIG DISGRACE!

Isnt there a slight chance that Stark might not be telling the truth??  

 

SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 7, 2019

NuCLEus may be on hold for years

 

The latest word on the proposed $350 million nuCLEus development is that its partnership appears to be waiting on the Ohio General Assembly's passage of a new financial incentive. That's according to a source with the City of Cleveland. Others in the real estate investment community confirm that the project is on hold.

The apparent decision to wait on the State of Ohio by the partnership, called Gateway Huron LLC, comprised of Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments Ltd., means that the project could be on hold for two to three years. The project was first announced in 2014.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/nucleus-may-be-on-hold-for-years.html

39 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 7, 2019

NuCLEus may be on hold for years

 

The latest word on the proposed $350 million nuCLEus development is that its partnership appears to be waiting on the Ohio General Assembly's passage of a new financial incentive. That's according to a source with the City of Cleveland. Others in the real estate investment community confirm that the project is on hold.

The apparent decision to wait on the State of Ohio by the partnership, called Gateway Huron LLC, comprised of Stark Enterprises and J-Dek Investments Ltd., means that the project could be on hold for two to three years. The project was first announced in 2014.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/nucleus-may-be-on-hold-for-years.html

Sad, never trusting Stark again. The Starks sound like people who have to get there way all the time and can never compromise. 

Edited September 7, 20195 yr by WindyBuckeye

I hope he just sells the damn property

12 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

According to my friend's understanding of the forthcoming Sherwin-Williams headquarters, he shared with me that S/W will be placing their NEW HEADQUARTERS at the nuCLEus project.

 

Hmm ... it's plausible.

 

Keep the Landmark Building for functions that don't face the public and, to address crowding and expansion, lease maybe 10 stories of the commercial tower of NuCLEus - that's a reasonable option for Sherwin-Williams to be considering. I suspect the commercial tower at the proposed 24-stories would be too small and would need to grow to 30+ stories to accommodate SHW. I can think of arguments against this alternative, but it's something the company would have to consider.

Confirmation, not that it’s needed, that Stark’s way out of his depth. 

not sure the skepticism is warranted, at least on this one issue..  we were looking at TMUD for a big project.  it could be a difference maker for deals that don't pencil and is too big not to wait for.  as the article says, it is more a mystery then thought months ago re: how it will be administered, competitive, how insurance companies will price the credit etc.

@misterjoshr What might be the timeline before TMUD projects could be certified, assuming SB39 becomes law? From my experiences in working with the state on appropriations, the earliest that an appropriations bill (in this case the corrections bill) might be passed is mid-2020. Then there has to be administrative rulemaking on the TMUD credits which can and often does take its own sweet time. Only then might the TMUDs be certified.

 

So @misterjoshr -- spill the beans! What's your big project? ?

 

I'm hearing rumblings of a big project in/near the edge of downtown requiring lots of property transactions. Is this yours?

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

@misterjoshr What might be the timeline before TMUD projects could be certified, assuming SB39 becomes law? From my experiences in working with the state on appropriations, the earliest that an appropriations bill (in this case the corrections bill) might be passed is mid-2020. Then there has to be administrative rulemaking on the TMUD credits which can and often does take its own sweet time. Only then might the TMUDs be certified.

 

So @misterjoshr -- spill the beans! What's your big project? ?

 

I'm hearing rumblings of a big project in/near the edge of downtown requiring lots of property transactions. Is this yours?

 

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

@misterjoshr What might be the timeline before TMUD projects could be certified, assuming SB39 becomes law? From my experiences in working with the state on appropriations, the earliest that an appropriations bill (in this case the corrections bill) might be passed is mid-2020. Then there has to be administrative rulemaking on the TMUD credits which can and often does take its own sweet time. Only then might the TMUDs be certified.

 

So @misterjoshr -- spill the beans! What's your big project? ?

 

I'm hearing rumblings of a big project in/near the edge of downtown requiring lots of property transactions. Is this yours?

 

I used the past tense.  I promise I have nothing to report

 

different people were saying different things about cert timelines but it seemed like it was difficult to rely on if you were looking at decision making in the short term

 

 

isn't 925 Euclid saying it needs a TMUD to get it's project started

I don't think the state has the will to make this happen. 

 

Yes, both houses passed the bill, albeit not during the same legislative session. That was lip service.

 

These projects will primarily drive development in the urban centers, which unfortunately are not high on the list of priorities in politically- charged Columbus.

38 minutes ago, simplythis said:

isn't 925 Euclid saying it needs a TMUD to get it's project started

I recall an article a while back where Wolstein suggested he could not go forward for Phase 3 of Flats East Bank (at least the apartment portion) until there was clarification regarding the bill.  But they would be in the same boat as Stark...who says they would win a TMUD.

I don't think I've ever heard talk of Stark using Opportunity Zone investment funds in this. Since Stark planned this project out and supposedly ran into funding problems long before OZs came around, I would have thought they would have filled the funding gap. If Stark can't fill the gap (which I thought needed "only" $12M from the schools) using OZ funds, who is to say this new state credit will be able to do the job? Is it because he could potentially get more from the state than he can from OZs? Sounds like he's just being greedy and going after whatever can give him the biggest break, nothing ever being big enough...

4 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

I don't think I've ever heard talk of Stark using Opportunity Zone investment funds in this. Since Stark planned this project out and supposedly ran into funding problems long before OZs came around, I would have thought they would have filled the funding gap. If Stark can't fill the gap (which I thought needed "only" $12M from the schools) using OZ funds, who is to say this new state credit will be able to do the job? Is it because he could potentially get more from the state than he can from OZs? Sounds like he's just being greedy and going after whatever can give him the biggest break, nothing ever being big enough...

My thoughts exactly

I don't know what Ezra Stark's problem is?  What is the city doing to impede Nucleus other than refusing to shower them with subsides.

2 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I don't know what Ezra Stark's problem is?  What is the city doing to impede Nucleus other than refusing to shower them with subsides.

I think the City is getting fed up with Stark. I just don't see the level of cooperation/colaboration needed to bring this project across the finish line. It reminds me of the Kucinich administration's era in City Hall.

2 hours ago, mack34 said:

I hope he just sells the damn property

People keep posting this sentiment with the further suggestion that another developer should take it over or come up with a new plan.  However, before Stark came up with this vision I don't recall any other developers fighting over the property and putting forth grand plans.  In fact I was pretty surprised when Stark came up the plan 5 years ago.  The development of this property was not even on my radar.  I always thought it was too valuable as parking for Progressive Field and "whatever that arena is now called"

6 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I think the City is getting fed up with Stark. I just don't see the level of cooperation/colaboration needed to bring this project across the finish line. It reminds me of the Kucinich administration's era in City Hall.

Maybe we should bring back George Forbes .   He would give Richard Jacobs what ever he wanted.

Edited September 7, 20195 yr by Htsguy

4 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

People keep posting this sentiment with the further suggestion that another developer should take it over or come up with a new plan.  However, before Stark came up with this vision I don't recall any other developers fighting over the property and putting forth grand plans.  In fact I was pretty surprised when Stark came up the plan 5 years ago.  The development of this property was not even on my radar.  I always thought it was too valuable as parking for Progressive Field and "whatever that arena is now called"

 

As I've said in response to others on the blog and here, another developer will run into the same problem: Cleveland rents are trying to pay for New York/Chicago construction prices. It takes a lot of public financing to undertake big projects.

 

So the argument is that Stark probably shouldn't be announcing big projects until it has its financing in order or it should pursue smaller projects. That 3-acre development site would contribute greatly to downtown's urbanity with a bunch of relatively affordable 5- to 15-story buildings on it.

Stark is  the Antonio Brown of Cleveland developers.

You know how much cheaper this project would’ve been 5 years ago? And how much more expensive it’ll be 8-10 years later? All for trying to squeeze every last drop from the public. 

@KJP  So what are the chances, if Stark/nuCLEus is approved for the TMUD tax credit, that he proceeds with the original plans to build the 54 story tower?

14 minutes ago, NR said:

@KJP  So what are the chances, if Stark/nuCLEus is approved for the TMUD tax credit, that he proceeds with the original plans to build the 54 story tower?

 

That's so far off, I couldn't even begin to guess. Downtown's market is very different than just three years ago. What will it be three years from now? And will there be a recession between now and then? If so, how well is the region's economy prepared for it? What sort of recession will it be? Can the region recover from it quickly? What will the political situation in USA/Ohio/Cleveland be like in three years?

This may have been discussed before, but would Playhouse Square Foundation be interested in taking over this Project?  From what I've read, they have the appetite for another residential tower. Since their ROI is more moderate, maybe they could resurrect the original design

^ Id love to say ‘yes’, but...

 

PHS want to develop PHS and I’d much rather they spend the money on Euclid/ Chester/ Prospect etc in that vicinity (would love them to do something by the Greyhound station, or the parking desert on Prospect & E14th)

 

Nucleus is Gateway and Gateway = sportsball, not theater. 

Interesting idea. Sounds more like something that the Gateway Economic Development Corp. could wrap their hands around. Their board meets quarterly. Next meeting is in two days.

 

https://www.gwcomplex.org/

 

But they meet at the Climaco law offices? Oh no. Do a Google search on them, Jackie Presser and organized crime. Such a colorful history.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Interesting idea. Sounds more like something that the Gateway Economic Development Corp. could wrap their hands around. Their board meets quarterly. Next meeting is in two days.

 

https://www.gwcomplex.org/

 

But they meet at the Climaco law offices? Oh no. Do a Google search on them, Jackie Presser and organized crime. Such a colorful history.

6 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ Id love to say ‘yes’, but...

 

PHS want to develop PHS and I’d much rather they spend the money on Euclid/ Chester/ Prospect etc in that vicinity (would love them to do something by the Greyhound station, or the parking desert on Prospect & E14th)

 

Nucleus is Gateway and Gateway = sportsball, not theater. 

They won't do any projects outside of Playhouse Square District.

 

But they do own the large parking lot across the street from Greyhound Station and I understand that their next project maybe on that site.

Edited September 10, 20195 yr by Larry1962