The PHSF's mission statement is as follows and note that it does not explicitly limit neighborhood development to Playhouse Square:

 

"Mission

PlayhouseSquare is a not-for-profit performing arts center whose mission is to present and produce a wide variety of quality performing arts, advance arts education, and create a neighborhood that is a superior destination for entertainment, business, and housing, thereby strengthening the economic vitality of the region."

Hello, forumers....Gateway Economic Development Corp.! ?

^ Don’t want to wander off-topic any further here, but I’d say the use of the words and phrases ‘center’, ‘a neighborhood’ and ‘destination’ make it pretty clear they’re talking solely about PHS. 

BTW, while the Gateway Economic Development Corp. probably couldn't undertake office or housing development as it outside its organizational mission, it could justifiably undertake parking and restaurant/retail development that would be ancillary to yet supportive of the operation of sports facilities. This is the legislation which enabled the creation of the GEDC in 1990, even though GEDC is not named specifically....

 

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/307.696

 

So my read of the law is that the pedestal upon which Stark's proposed office and residential towers are proposed to be built may legally be financed and owned by GEDC. The foundation and the parking are probably the least profitable components of nuCLEus. GEDC, a 501c3 tax-exempt organization like PHSF, could then lease the air rights to Stark/J-Dek, lease the retail spaces, generate parking revenues and use these revenue streams to retire construction bonds.

6 minutes ago, KJP said:

BTW, while the Gateway Economic Development Corp. probably couldn't undertake office or housing development as it outside its organizational mission, it could justifiably undertake parking and restaurant/retail development that would be ancillary to yet supportive of the operation of sports facilities. This is the legislation which enabled the creation of the GEDC in 1990, even though GEDC is not named specifically....

 

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/307.696

 

So my read of the law is that the pedestal upon which Stark's proposed office and residential towers are proposed to be built may legally be financed and owned by GEDC. The foundation and the parking are probably the least profitable components of nuCLEus. GEDC, a 501c3 tax-exempt organization like PHSF, could then lease the air rights to Stark/J-Dek, lease the retail spaces, generate parking revenues and use these revenue streams to retire construction bonds.

KJP: forward stark your post

@kjp is gonna singlehandedly will this thing to fruition.

4 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Time to build some 2-3 story retail with housing above on this site as the extension to E4th and move on to developing the W3rd lots.

Stark paid $26 million for those lots. How many millions do you think he’d lose by constructing 2-3 story buildings there? My guess would be around $30 million.

Although the price for those parking lots was steep, the $26 million also includes the lots at West 9th and St. Clair too.

1 hour ago, Terdolph said:

Time to build some 2-3 story retail with housing above on this site as the extension to E4th and move on to developing the W3rd lots.

Great idea.  Now all you need to do is buy the property from Stark.  Better break your piggy bank.

12 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Stark is going to lose a lot more in interest payments when he holds on to it for the next six years with no revenue.   He may as well cut his losses and dump it now. 

 

Or, he could always do a six story parking deck lined with apartments and ground floor retail.

No revenue??  i'm not sure the exact # of parking spaces, but he owns the garage and massive surface lot across the street from a very busy 20,000 seat arena.  He's making a ton of revenue.  might be why he's in no real hurry to develop

2 hours ago, mack34 said:

No revenue??  i'm not sure the exact # of parking spaces, but he owns the garage and massive surface lot across the street from a very busy 20,000 seat arena.  He's making a ton of revenue.  might be why he's in no real hurry to develop

 

At the nuCLEus site, there are about 300 spaces in the existing surface lots and about 360 spaces in the existing multistory deck. The lot charges $11 per day and the deck $8 per day. So it's possible that Gateway Huron LLC (Stark/J-Dek) is probably pulling in about $2 million per year in parking revenue from these properties. Plus, Gateway Huron is getting lease revenue from Mr. Albert's and Nick's pub next door. Property taxes on all of these parcels appear to be about $420,000 per year. I have no idea what the insurance might be, what labor charges might exist, or the interest expenses. But suffice it to say, the profit from the existing uses could be $1 million per year or more.

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

At the nuCLEus site, there are about 300 spaces in the existing surface lots and about 360 spaces in the existing multistory deck. The lot charges $11 per day and the deck $8 per day. So it's possible that Gateway Huron LLC (Stark/J-Dek) is probably pulling in about $2 million per year in parking revenue from these properties. Plus, Gateway Huron is getting lease revenue from Mr. Albert's and Nick's pub next door. Property taxes on all of these parcels appear to be about $420,000 per year. I have no idea what the insurance might be, what labor charges might exist, or the interest expenses. But suffice it to say, the profit from the existing uses could be $1 million per year or more.

If this is the senior Stark's current thought process, even if imposed due to circumstances, it is certainly ironic since during his Pescht phase he railed against the parking craters of the warehouse district.

I'm sure Bob Stark would prefer to earn his money differently and look upon a gleaming, towering and enduring creation of his with pride, but business is business.

21 minutes ago, KJP said:

I'm sure Bob Stark would prefer to earn his money differently and look upon a gleaming, towering and enduring creation of his with pride, but business is business.

Plus those lots are $20 or $30 on game nights...

Parking lots are great business. Anti -urban as hell, but it's basically free money for very low maintenance/labor costs.

 

That fact that you can be a millionaire in America because you own a parking lot in a city is such an absurd concept. 

Could this Cleveland.com criticism of the Mayor and City Hall on a different, unrelated issue (his grandson), be in reference to Nucleus?

 

"The damning bad judgment in all this came from the leader of a city where worthwhile projects now come to get ensnarled in or devoured by the red tape his minions manufacture."

Edited September 13, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

4 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Could this Cleveland.com criticism of the Mayor and City Hall on a different, unrelated issue (his grandson), be in reference to Nucleus?

 

"The damning bad judgment in all this came from the leader of a city where worthwhile projects now come to get ensnarled in or devoured by the red tape his minions manufacture."

 

I would say it could be a veiled criticism of NuCLEus but I would say it's off base. As has been discussed plenty here, it's not the city's red tape that has and is holding up NuCLEus, it's Stark's lack of funding and such high demands for public financing and benefits outside the norms that is holding it up. If Stark could/would have found more outside investors to help fund it using standard tax/public benefits, it would be half completed by now. I just can't get on board with the idea that city hall has held up this project through bureaucratic red tape. It also echos a line that Stark himself used in a recent blog post blaming the bureaucracy for holding up the city using scooters as an example. 

^ very true. aside from his own money struggles for nucleus, didn't stark want some retail/commercial in it as well?

 

with all the changes the retail world is going through, i bet any of that preliminary interest may have pulled the rug out from under it by now too.

 

it seems it's not getting any easier as time goes by.

I don't get on these forums to get into discussions of why a tower needs to be scaled down for business reasons or whatever other nuances. All I know is I'm 31 and a lifetime Clevelander. This means in my time I've never been able to marvel at a Cleveland building getting erected thats over 500 feet (at least). When the Nucleus plan was announced i thought to myself maybe this is finally gonna be it, however it never fails. The mundane of Cleveland shoots down a wonderful serious skyline changing event with their reasons for hotel space being unwarranted or how its "too much mixed use space" or whatever other dumb ass f*cking reasons to keep Cleveland stuck in cement boots. I honestly would rather have a parking lot just to sh*t on the undesirables that want to pump that idea up. Yes the first thing we need is another 300 ft much to do about nothing building where instead one could have been sitting ripping up some serious air with our other lonely 4 buildings.

Edited September 19, 20195 yr by SuperKidSpliff

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that local media is letting Stark get away with overpromising and underdelivering (er, not delivering at all) on something he has been front and center pushing for over five years. Where is the criticism directed against him? Why isn't any reporter at least hounding him for an interview so he may publicly comment on the latest status with this project? I have no idea who Stark is or what his reputation is among developers, but as a new resident to this area and as an urbanist who wants nothing but forward momentum for Cleveland, he seems like a colossal disappointment (Beacon notwithstanding). 

 

Bottom line: reporters should be pressuring him for a public comment. Developers like him need to eat crow if this is dead. Those nuCLEus signs near the Q ought to be removed.  And he owes Cleveland an update after years of benefitting from free media and big promises on what would have been such a nice transformational project.

No, the project isn't dead. Yes, Cleveland media sucks, with a few exceptions. No, a 500+ foot tall tower doesn't make sense when there's 60 acres of surface parking lots in/next to the central business district and more public subsidies are needed with more height. Yes, many if them have plans for buildings on them. And, yes, I anticipate that maybe half of them will get built, especially the smaller stuff that needs conventional subsidies.

6 hours ago, SuperKidSpliff said:

I don't get on these forums to get into discussions of why a tower needs to be scaled down for business reasons or whatever other nuances. All I know is I'm 31 and a lifetime Clevelander. This means in my time I've never been able to marvel at a Cleveland building getting erected thats over 500 feet (at least). When the Nucleus plan was announced i thought to myself maybe this is finally gonna be it, however it never fails. The mundane of Cleveland shoots down a wonderful serious skyline changing event with their reasons for hotel space being unwarranted or how its "too much mixed use space" or whatever other dumb ass f*cking reasons to keep Cleveland stuck in cement boots. I honestly would rather have a parking lot just to sh*t on the undesirables that want to pump that idea up. Yes the first thing we need is another 300 ft much to do about nothing building where instead one could have been sitting ripping up some serious air with our other lonely 4 buildings.

Relax bud. I was in Nashville recently, which is likely the fastest growing city east of the Mississippi, and twice as large as CLE population wise. I counted roughly 2 dozens cranes up in and around their downtown area. Their tallest building is 617 feet. 2nd tallest is 543. No other building is taller than 500 feet.  None of the current buildings under construction will surpass 500 feet. There’s one proposed to be 750, but it’s just in the proposal stage, like NuCLEus. 

32 minutes ago, KJP said:

No, the project isn't dead. Yes, Cleveland media sucks, with a few exceptions. 

 

You guys hear of this NEO-Trans Blogspot site? Great exception to the horrible NEO media landscape. Awesome news source! https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/?m=1

52 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

 

You guys hear of this NEO-Trans Blogspot site? Great exception to the horrible NEO media landscape. Awesome news source! https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/?m=1

 

Another satisfied customer! ?

I'm hoping that through all the delays, when he is finally able to get assistance and work this out, that he'll be able to get enough to build the original tower that was proposed(50+ stories).        That would make this long wait worth it, or at least easier.

Edited September 19, 20195 yr by NR

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Relax bud. I was in Nashville recently, which is likely the fastest growing city east of the Mississippi, and twice as large as CLE population wise. I counted roughly 2 dozens cranes up in and around their downtown area. Their tallest building is 617 feet. 2nd tallest is 543. No other building is taller than 500 feet.  None of the current buildings under construction will surpass 500 feet. There’s one proposed to be 750, but it’s just in the proposal stage, like NuCLEus. 

Why would we care what Nashville has?  Nothing wrong with us Clevelanders want to see a big, impressive new complex on Prospect Avenue!

 

2 minutes ago, lafont said:

Why would we care what Nashville has?  Nothing wrong with us Clevelanders want to see a big, impressive new complex on Prospect Avenue!

 

It always good to have high hopes for a big tower, but a few mid rise new buildings can have just as important of an effect on the city.

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

.

Where are there still NuCLEus signs near the Q?  I'd like to follow how long they stay up.  Yes, a developer who makes a huge, flashly (and splashy) announcement, gets a lot of people positively excited, gets a lot of corporate people and man others into making new plans for their future, and then scales the project downward to maybe zero, owes the public lots of explanation.

Although he is not talking about nuCLEus in this blog from Ezra Stark, you know he is talking about nuCLEus...

 

https://www.starkenterprises.com/a-bird-in-the-hand/

21 minutes ago, lafont said:

Where are there still NuCLEus signs near the Q?  I'd like to follow how long they stay up.  Yes, a developer who makes a huge, flashly (and splashy) announcement, gets a lot of people positively excited, gets a lot of corporate people and man others into making new plans for their future, and then scales the project downward to maybe zero, owes the public lots of explanation.

 

19 minutes ago, freethink said:

Although he is not talking about nuCLEus in this blog from Ezra Stark, you know he is talking about nuCLEus...

 

https://www.starkenterprises.com/a-bird-in-the-hand/

?

Ezra, if NuCLEus is such a problem as you've made it, sell the parking lots and your rights and give them to a developer that has perspective.

 

Edit2: also dude, these are surface parking lots that are a blight on the city, quit with the start stop BS and either commit or get out of this area. How many times have we been teased with 'groundbreaking' announcements only to have them scuttled because of some small reason- most recently prevailing wage? If you can't support NEO construction workers at a union wage, then you don't deserve NEO tax credits. 

 

With that, I need more coffee lol

Edited September 19, 20195 yr by GISguy

21 minutes ago, lafont said:

Where are there still NuCLEus signs near the Q? 

there are several rectangular "Now Leasing" nuCLEus signs affixed to perimeter fencing around a couple of the parking lots near the arena. It's nothing significant, but if the project is indeed dead, hoping they remove these trophies of lost hope. Hope you are right, @KJP!

2 hours ago, marty15 said:

Relax bud. I was in Nashville recently, which is likely the fastest growing city east of the Mississippi, and twice as large as CLE population wise. I counted roughly 2 dozens cranes up in and around their downtown area. Their tallest building is 617 feet. 2nd tallest is 543. No other building is taller than 500 feet.  None of the current buildings under construction will surpass 500 feet. There’s one proposed to be 750, but it’s just in the proposal stage, like NuCLEus. 

 

City proper Nashville is growing  a LOT more slowly than people think.  It wasn't even in the top 20 last year.  This is especially odd considering it is combined with its home county, which should theoretically prop up growth.  Nope.  Despite the hype, the major growth in Nashville is all in the greater metro, not the city.  It's almost entirely sprawl.

1 hour ago, freethink said:

Although he is not talking about nuCLEus in this blog from Ezra Stark, you know he is talking about nuCLEus...

 

https://www.starkenterprises.com/a-bird-in-the-hand/

Well said, Freethink - Stark’s blog is a not very subtle statement about how, for ”some reason”, things that move pretty quickly in other cities  take a lot longer in Cleveland. And I may be reading too much into it, but it suggests that, as frustrated as we all are with the stop/start/hype/silence of Nucleus, Ezra’s view, though less Glizy than than Bob’s, is still confident about his ability to deliver the project. I think KJP’s comment that the project “ is not dead” is instructive.  For the moment, given the reality of The Beacon, after a long wait, I’m going to give Stark the benefit of the doubt - though I do think Bob was initially hyping a vision of it that was beyond his reach.  Hopefully, when all is said and done, and I hope soon, the project does make it to the finish line. Even in it’s more modest version, it will contribute greatly to the city.  

Edited September 19, 20195 yr by CleveFan
Content

This may also appropriate for SW HQ thread, but historically, the City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County appear to have been more cooperative with the community corporations, with a few exceptions, vs. individual private developers (Cleveland Trust-Ameritrust, Society for Savings, Standard Oil, National City, Ohio Bell, Cleveland Electric Illuminating).

7 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

This may also appropriate for SW HQ thread, but historically, the City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County appear to have been more cooperative with the community corporations, with a few exceptions, vs. individual private developers (Cleveland Trust-Ameritrust, Society for Savings, Standard Oil, National City, Ohio Bell, Cleveland Electric Illuminating).

............and not one of those entities (as listed) exists today.  

Agreed. What is your point? 

 

That cooperation from the city/county led to the downfall of these corporations?

7 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Agreed. What is your point? 

 

That cooperation from the city/county led to the downfall of these corporations?

My point is, exactly what I wrote.  Nothing more.

I'm trying to understand how it relates to major civic cooperation with large corporations vs significantly less civic cooperation with individual developers.

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/stark-j-dek-still-working-plans-350-million-nucleus-project

 

Quote

Stark, J-Dek ‘still working' on plans for $350 million nuCLEus project

STAN BULLARD

 

Another construction season is starting to wane without building — or demolition — activity on the site of nuCLEus, the $350 million mixed-use project proposed by Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dek Investments of Solon on a site between the East 4th Street Neighborhood and Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse.

 

Asked where the plan for the two 24-floor towers stands, Ezra Stark, chief operating officer of family-owned Stark Enterprises, said, "We're still working on it."

Last April, Stark had said to look for demolition of a two-story building and a parking garage on the eastern edge of the proposed project site to begin in August.

 

In a phone interview on Friday, Sept. 13, Stark declined to say how much of a gap the company has left to close to finance the project. The plan now incorporates a 24-story office building with 400,000 square feet of office space and a 24-story residential building with 250 suites. Both are integrated into a parking garage with 1,300 parking spots. The garage also sports 80,000 square feet of commercial space at street level.

...

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Mendo said:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/stark-j-dek-still-working-plans-350-million-nucleus-project

 

 

 

 

I'm so over this "project".  This started out as a great "mega project" now it's just a joke.

 

 

Has this not broke ground yet? I thought it was suppose to in August.

5 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

Has this not broke ground yet? I thought it was suppose to in August.

Well you clearly have not been following this thread for the past month or so.

 

The crain's article posted above should be able to answer some of your questions but a more complete understanding can be gleamed from @KJP blog article in this thread as well as the comments of many forum members.

1 hour ago, Mendo said:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/stark-j-dek-still-working-plans-350-million-nucleus-project

 

 

 

 

Good attempt by Stan but not really filled with much news, at least not for the gang on this forum.

 

Look's like Stan was trying to get Ezra to open up and he was having none of it  Article then just kind of turned into a re harsh of past events.

 

What I did find somewhat interesting, although it did not answer any questions, was the end of the article where the state mixed use legislation was mentioned (still not passed by the House and not even set for committee hearing as of this date).  We have already discussed that if it does pass there is no guarantee Stark will win a credit (not to mention it might be so far in the future that construction costs will balloon, possibly negating the value of the credit).  Moreover, to win a credit you apparently have to verify that you cannot do the project without the credit.  This seems to be a moving target for Stark since it looked like a few months ago they were actually going to move forward without it (although how has always been a mystery) but that has apparently blown up.  Again, unfortunately, Ezra was tight lipped on this issue and would not commit that they needed the credit (although it appears now they do) or really what they were doing to move the project forward.  Probably smart on his part but of course annoying to us.

I skimmed the last page and heard about Nashville and parking lots but my mind and eyes have become weary of this project. I sometimes wonder if Stark just likes free publicity. 

7 minutes ago, Mildtraumatic said:

I skimmed the last page and heard about Nashville and parking lots but my mind and eyes have become weary of this project. I sometimes wonder if Stark just likes free publicity. 

Exactly.  This guys knows his project is now a joke.  However, if he keeps his name and/or company in the news, he can continue to rent/lease at a profit all while holding up high rise and "alleged" high quality development.

Times have changed and people don't necessarily want to live in SFH.  People in Cleveland want true urbane living.  People in their 30/40 want options.  This project "down sizing" makes it appear as Cleveland cannot build that.   This project is targeted at people like me.  High Income, one/two kids, one or no cars, wants to live in or near it all.   People, like me, want options.  If a project like this is not built soon, the rental market will suffer.  We need HOME OWNERS in downtown.

1 hour ago, MyTwoSense said:

Exactly.  This guys knows his project is now a joke.  However, if he keeps his name and/or company in the news, he can continue to rent/lease at a profit all while holding up high rise and "alleged" high quality development.

Times have changed and people don't necessarily want to live in SFH.  People in Cleveland want true urbane living.  People in their 30/40 want options.  This project "down sizing" makes it appear as Cleveland cannot build that.   This project is targeted at people like me.  High Income, one/two kids, one or no cars, wants to live in or near it all.   People, like me, want options.  If a project like this is not built soon, the rental market will suffer.  We need HOME OWNERS in downtown.

Hopefully the Avenue District  Condo Tower is a success thus IMPROVING the chances that we we have the Geis Condo

Tower at the former NY Spaghetti house site and thus you will have the options that you are looking for.

This project sounds like Columbus' Millennial Tower and the Starks sound like Arshot.  Maybe we should have a contest to see which one doesn't get built first.  Can both win?

Detroit's "The Mid" is reminiscent of NuCLEus in terms of appearance and cost, but Detroit project includes $1M condos.

 

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/voices-chad-livengood/detroit-rising-high-rise-condos-mid-may-reach-1m-cost

On 9/22/2019 at 1:46 PM, simplythis said:

Hopefully the Avenue District  Condo Tower is a success thus IMPROVING the chances that we we have the Geis Condo

Tower at the former NY Spaghetti house site and thus you will have the options that you are looking for.

If that were true the success of  The Beacon  would have improved the chances of NuCLEaus being built considering that the two locations are closer together.