I'm always rooting for something to get built, but a strict, 24-story-(ish) office tower with Benesch and Stark Enterprises as the primary tenants would be disappointing for this location, and not just because Stark has been overpromising hotels and major retail for over half a decade.  This parcel is the gateway (pun kinda sorta intended) between East 4th and RMFH/Progressive Field.  To see it taken up by "just another office tower" would be disheartening.  That kind of project would fit just as easily in the 9th/12th financial district to the northeast.

 

Hopefully, KJP's pitch for residential units amongst the initial office tower takes off because that would at least liven up the surrounding area a little.  But it doesn't sound like that option has gone too far in Stark-world.

Edited September 2, 20204 yr by Down_with_Ctown

I totally agree.  A structure that takes advantage of the unique shape of the property would be awesome.  The latest rendering does not do that.

6 hours ago, Down_with_Ctown said:

I'm always rooting for something to get built, but a strict, 24-story-(ish) office tower with Benesch and Stark Enterprises as the primary tenants would be disappointing for this location, and not just because Stark has been overpromising hotels and major retail for over half a decade.  This parcel is the gateway (pun kinda sorta intended) between East 4th and RMFH/Progressive Field.  To see it taken up by "just another office tower" would be disheartening.  That kind of project would fit just as easily in the 9th/12th financial district to the northeast.

 

Hopefully, KJP's pitch for residential units amongst the initial office tower takes off because that would at least liven up the surrounding area a little.  But it doesn't sound like that option has gone too far in Stark-world.

Just curious - Why do you say that? Do you have sources or contacts at Stark? 

Edited September 2, 20204 yr by CleveFan

16 hours ago, Down_with_Ctown said:

I'm always rooting for something to get built, but a strict, 24-story-(ish) office tower with Benesch and Stark Enterprises as the primary tenants would be disappointing for this location, and not just because Stark has been overpromising hotels and major retail for over half a decade.  This parcel is the gateway (pun kinda sorta intended) between East 4th and RMFH/Progressive Field.  To see it taken up by "just another office tower" would be disheartening.  That kind of project would fit just as easily in the 9th/12th financial district to the northeast.

 

Hopefully, KJP's pitch for residential units amongst the initial office tower takes off because that would at least liven up the surrounding area a little.  But it doesn't sound like that option has gone too far in Stark-world.

BUT the current plans also include a large 6 - 8 story base with retail, parking, and hopefully the planned CLEVELAND LIVE entertainment complex that would occupy a large part of the first floor that will be across from the RMFH.  That WILL help connect the EAST 4 STREET and the RMFH and provide post virus another place for small concerts and other events year round!

 

And that base will also provide a place for ANOTHER TOWER, be that apartments, condos, or mix use.

20 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Just curious - Why do you say that? Do you have sources or contacts at Stark? 

 

None whatsoever, I'm afraid.  Just going by what KJP wrote in his article.

 

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 22, 2020

Why does Circle Square get love and nuCLEus doesn't?

 

Two births were noted in 2014. Ideas for a pair of major urban core real estate developments in Cleveland -- nuCLEus and Circle Square -- were set into motion, leading to much excitement and debate by everyone from urbanistas to media to fellow developers to elected officials.

 

Since those births six years ago, neither project has turned a shovel of dirt for new construction. Yet nuCLEus gets publicly criticized and doubted while Circle Square doesn't. Is that fair? Let's take a look at that....

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/09/why-does-circle-square-get-love-and.html

 

Good stuff Ken!

 

At this point with how long we’ve waited, I wouldn’t mind waiting a little longer if it means we get the original tower.  Anything is better than parking lots, don’t get me wrong, but I’m not a big fan of the scaled down versions.  I’d rather wait a little more and have the original, because once something gets built on those lots... it’ll probably be there for the rest of our lifetimes... and Id rather see that unique tower!!!

Man I really love those NEOtrans articles @KJP- thanks for all the great details and the insightful perspective, as usual!  The only bit I could question would be that Nucleus was ever slated to become the 2nd tallest tower - I seem to remember it topping out just below 200 Public Square.  Anyway, like many, I’m frustrated by the lack of much communication from Stark following the initial spectacular “reveal” for the original Nucleus. And, of course, the ongoing delays and downsizing haven’t been a lot of fun.   But despite that frustration, I think - big picture-  Stark has to get props for  constructing the Beacon - a project a decade in the making in a downtown district that hadn’t seen a new residential high rise  in some 40 years. That’s why I’ve never been ready to give up on Nucleus after “just” 6 years.  I still think  Stark has an option or two to “play” - including the possibility of just one single mixed use tower with a land sale of the second tower’s parcel - or a phased approach with the second tower to come down the road, when hopefully, a post- Covid world spurns new development with more mojo than the current landscape.  If a one tower approach is adopted , I’d like to see it include all the components - Benesch, Cleveland Live, condos and apartments -  from the get-go. Hopefully, it would regain some of the stature and flair  of the original Nucleus - a version 4.0 surpassing   the uninspiring 24 story version last seen.    Yet, even if we ultimately “only” get Nucelus 3.0  -  that’s still a good win  for both Stark and the city. The project’s ability to energize at street level will be more important than its height anyway. I’m wishing  the Stark team good luck  bringing this project home. 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 20204 yr by CleveFan

^ yeah and the thing is, both of those major projects will be successful, whatever final form they take. they are a lock.

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

^ yeah and the thing is, both of those major projects will be successful, whatever final form they take. they are a lock.

It's been a long week. What are the major projects to which you are referring?

Just now, Ineffable_Matt said:

It's been a long week. What are the major projects to which you are referring?

 

 

ha yeah you go that right! i was just bloviating about nucleus and circle square.

Maybe Stark should try to land Cleveland Cliffs as a tenant...

9 minutes ago, Eastside said:

Maybe Stark should try to land Cleveland Cliffs as a tenant...

 

Cliffs doesn't want to play second fiddle to Benesch. And I don't think nuCLEus has enough room for Benesch, Cliffs and Stark in its proposed office plan. But since that plan hasn't gone through design-review yet, I suppose they could change its proposal to fit the market. Then again, there are some potential tenants sniffing around nuCLEus that could fill it up and make it go. Hopefully Stark won't scare them off.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Cliffs doesn't want to play second fiddle to Benesch. And I don't think nuCLEus has enough room for Benesch, Cliffs and Stark in its proposed office plan. But since that plan hasn't gone through design-review yet, I suppose they could change its proposal to fit the market. Then again, there are some potential tenants sniffing around nuCLEus that could fill it up and make it go. Hopefully Stark won't scare them off.

 

Would it be possible to reconfigure the design to have two mixed use towers on parking pedestals, with Benesch and Cleveland-Cliffs being respective anchors and incorporating either micro-units or conventional-sized residential apartments along with a small retail mix at street level?

 

Edit:

Office Tenant Mix
Benesch = 180,000 square feet [1]
Stark = moved from 18,290 square feet Gilman Building to 28,000 square feet at 629 Euclid Ave (avg. 23,145 sq ft) [1]
Cleveland-Cliffs = 255,000 to 340,000 square feet at 150 to 200 square feet per employee if approx 1400 employees sees 20% growth (avg 297,500 sq ft) [2]

 

Total: 500,645 sq ft office uses

nuCLEus's original $353 million redesign to two separate towers (25-story office tower and a 22-story residential tower) called for 2 million square feet of space with the following uses[4]:
- 150,000 square feet of national restaurant and retail tenants
- a luxury hotel (mentioned in intro paragraph to [4] despite being cut)
- 500 apartments/condo units
- 200,000 square feet of class A office space

Retail base, 1550 parking spaces across 7 (KJP) floors of parking, amenity floor above both parking and as 15th floor atop 14 floors of office space; 14 floors of 1-3BR units

1. https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/08/mixed-use-could-boost-proposed-downtown.html

2. https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/10/could-cliffs-acquisitions-bring-another.html
3. https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/01/starks-nucleus-has-smaller-more.html

4. http://freepdfhosting.com/4c42554ef1.pdf

 

For the sake of comparison, here's Ken's article about the revision that involved the Herold building: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-nucleus-and-herold-got-their-lives.html

and his most most recent article breaking down what a single-tower mixed use tower might look like: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/08/mixed-use-could-boost-proposed-downtown.html

Edited October 6, 20204 yr by infrafreak
added office uses

Sure, I would think anything is possible especially since Stark hasn't gone back to Planning Commission for approval of its latest design. And while some renderings and floor plans have been shared, they could always revise them to meet a customer's needs. Some of Stark's marketing materials are vague about what they can accommodate, even suggesting up to 1 million square feet of office space. So yeah, I think they could accommodate something. If they were easy to work with and some real estate brokers suggest they are not.

8 hours ago, KJP said:

Sure, I would think anything is possible especially since Stark hasn't gone back to Planning Commission for approval of its latest design. And while some renderings and floor plans have been shared, they could always revise them to meet a customer's needs. Some of Stark's marketing materials are vague about what they can accommodate, even suggesting up to 1 million square feet of office space. So yeah, I think they could accommodate something. If they were easy to work with and some real estate brokers suggest they are not.

If Stark Holds on to any aspirations of a statement building that shows the world that Cleveland is capable of building another Chicago or NY-esque building  -  having two anchor tenants like Benech and Cliffs combined with a residential component might be his  best chance. It could be the pathway  to recreating something much more like the original Nucleus. And just maybe the lack of any recent  news is a sign that he’s still working quietly behind the scenes to deliver that building that will become his legacy in Cleveland. Here’s hoping anyway. .  

Edited October 7, 20204 yr by CleveFan

While law firms generally won't locate in a building named for another law firm, companies frequently fill the majority of "their" space with law firms.  Key Tower, home to Thompson, Squire and Baker is an example.  I'm sure Stark could easily convince its client, Benesch, to be a tenant in what could be the "Cleveland Cliffs Tower."

Edited October 7, 20204 yr by gruver

 

FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 2020

Ohio 'megaproject' tax credit regains life at 11th hour

 

That rhythmic sound you're hearing again is a pulse after eight months of silence. It is coming from Substitute Senate Bill 39, also known as the Transformational Mixed Use Development (TMUD) tax credit, which could be passed by the Ohio General Assembly by the end of the year.

 

And it's not just a pulse from the legislation, but from big real estate projects that would compete for tax credits following its passage. In Cleveland, those could include Stark Enterprises' nuCLEus and Millennia Companies' The Centennial, plus other potential redevelopments like the Westinghouse plant or the Richman Brothers factory.

 

MORE

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/11/ohio-megaproject-tax-credit-regains.html

I guess i should be excited but somehow I feel like a brown's fan in their  0-16 season. 

Murphy's Law - Whatever could go wrong will go wrong -  Maybe the TMUD passes

but Nucleus doesn't get the competitive credit

^ Potentially great news for the Centennial and Millinnia Cos.  I simply no longer get excited about news for the Nucleus project; I'm afraid its luster has simply worn off.

As others have stated it is very difficult for me as well to gain any sense of excitement with regards to anything involving the nuCLEus development.

 

Six long years later and even the mere mentioning of nuCLEus sounds almost profane in nature.

 

Will I feel differently if and when this development happens? Of course, but only then.

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

I still can't help but notice that on Stark's website they still have pictures of NuCLEus 2.0 up (aka two towers but not jenga) as opposed to NuCLEus 3.0 (one tower), which we never actually saw more than a massing of. I've brought this idea up on the forum before and people rejected the idea, but I still can't help but wonder if NuCLEus 3.0 is the "we need to move now, Benesch won't wait any longer" version and NuCLEus 2.0 is the version Stark would still like to build if the mythical TMUD or some other magical financing creature comes along. The capital stack for NuCLEus 3.0 just seemed so feasible that I wondered why they couldn't just make something happen.

 

But it all just feels like hoping beyond hope at this point anyway.

I'm told lenders wouldn't give Stark a construction loan based on the tenants he has signed, one of which includes Stark itself. They want to see more tenants. But it's hard to sign tenants when you're reportedly playing hardball in negotiations and the project has been kicking around for 6 years.

I’m completely over this development 🤷🏾‍♂️This doesn’t excite me at all. 🙅🏾‍♂️

Edited November 14, 20204 yr by osu4brutus03

24 minutes ago, osu4brutus03 said:

I’m completely over this development 🤷🏾‍♂️This doesn’t excite me at all. 🙅🏾‍♂️

 

No interest even though the tax credit can be used for other developments? And why get excited about anything until shovels are in the ground? They're all just ideas until then.

1 hour ago, osu4brutus03 said:

I’m completely over this development 🤷🏾‍♂️This doesn’t excite me at all. 🙅🏾‍♂️

My hope for the TMUD, if passed, this project gets closer to it’s ambitious roots as opposed to the current plan.

And it could support a project that we can't even imagine at this time. How about a massive mixed-use development built over the lakefront railroad tracks to link Mall C to the lakefront? Or perhaps a huge Tod above the East 105th Quincy station? Or maybe a remaking of the I-X Center? All kinds of possibilities could be funded, not just nuCLEus which might need only about $12 million based on the amount of the forgivable loan they did not receive from the city.

Edited November 14, 20204 yr by KJP

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

No interest even though the tax credit can be used for other developments? And why get excited about anything until shovels are in the ground? They're all just ideas until then.

Very true

 
No interest even though the tax credit can be used for other developments? And why get excited about anything until shovels are in the ground? They're all just ideas until then.

Some ideas are more likely to come to fruition than others.

17 hours ago, jam40jeff said:

23 hours ago, KJP said:

 
No interest even though the tax credit can be used for other developments? And why get excited about anything until shovels are in the ground? They're all just ideas until then.

Some ideas are more likely to come to fruition than others.

 

Probably. But I don't get emotionally involved in projects before a shovel goes in the ground. I do get more interested in some proposed projects based on who's involved in them. Like, when Geis, Knez or Fairmount gets involved in a project versus Realife. Stark is probably in between those extremes.

On 11/14/2020 at 2:38 PM, KJP said:

And it could support a project that we can't even imagine at this time. How about a massive mixed-use development built over the lakefront railroad tracks to link Mall C to the lakefront? Or perhaps a huge Tod above the East 105th Quincy station? Or maybe a remaking of the I-X Center? All kinds of possibilities could be funded, not just nuCLEus which might need only about $12 million based on the amount of the forgivable loan they did not receive from the city.

Why could the Wolstein family/company fill in the last minute $ 50 Million Dollar funding gap when starting the first phase of the East Bank Flats Project with their own personal guarantees to make sure their $ 250 Million Dollar project go forward. 

 

AND Bob Stark/company/partners can't or won't fill a $ 12 Million Dollar gap in his $ 250 Million Dollar project to make sure their project is completed?

 

And by the way the Wolstein was able to refinance the project after completing the majority of the EY Building and there by remove the need for the personal guarantees...

Edited November 16, 20204 yr by Larry1962
Typos

I don't see the Stark Group risking their personal financial standing for business.

I’m with @Larry1962that it seems 

like a $12 million dollar gap on a $350 million (not sure of the exact figure) project seems too small to not find a solution. And not to play the blame game, but couldn’t the city find a creative way to help close the deal? 
When you’re 97% of the way there you’ve got to get it across the finish line. The Beacon was, I think,  a 10 year project so as frustrating as it’s been, I’m not “over” caring about Nucleus six years in - even though it has fallen from the mighty heights initially imagined by Stark.  Even a one tower 24 story version would still be a worthwhile addition in that space. But I’m not emotionally involved - wink 😉. 

I think the fact that they're unable to cough up $12 million or so says shows why they're having difficulty bringing this over the finish line. Stark has fought others over much less money than that. For example, they were unwilling to give their retail tenants a break during the pandemic shut down last spring. They told them to come up with the money or else.

I love the new design for Nucleus, I think we lucked out in all honesty. The initial designs were fun to marvel at because of the bridge, the "Jenga" facade & of course the height. But a lot of us clamored for setbacks at the top of the building, because it just looked out of place. The new design fits in much better, and I would be excited to see that kind of big city architecture go up here, no matter how long it takes. 

On 11/16/2020 at 12:36 AM, Larry1962 said:

Why could the Wolstein family/company fill in the last minute $ 50 Million Dollar funding gap when starting the first phase of the East Bank Flats Project with their own personal guarantees to make sure their $ 250 Million Dollar project go forward. 

 

AND Bob Stark/company/partners can't or won't fill a $ 12 Million Dollar gap in his $ 250 Million Dollar project to make sure their project is completed?

 

And by the way the Wolstein was able to refinance the project after completing the majority of the EY Building and there by remove the need for the personal guarantees...

 

"Wolstein successfully turned a $2 billion dollar company into a $1 billion dollar company since taking over the family business..."

 

quote from a local developer.

 

While I think most would appreciate "any" development at "that" site being fantastic but, a 24-story commercial office building (v3.0), at "that" location, is less than exciting when there are residential buildings in the CBD that surpass it in height and design.

Edited November 18, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

 

They have done this move before over & over & over in the past. When it came down to vote on it in January/February 2020

They moved it from week to week to week and the covid came.   In the prior cycle they were ready to vote on it in November

and they postponed it into December and then week to week and then the cycle ended.

It's never gotten this far. The last time it got anywhere near this close was at the end of 2018. It passed the House too late in the prior session to make it through Senate committees in time to get a floor vote. It never got out of committee in the Senate.

 

Now it's passed the Senate and gone through the House committee process to appear on the House floor for a vote with multiple days of House floor action scheduled before the end of the two-year session.

Render of a proposed resort/casino in Athens Greece has got that nuCLEus vibe.

I’d take the stubby tower as nuCLEus at this point

14 hours ago, freethink said:

Render of a proposed resort/casino in Athens Greece has got that nuCLEus vibe.

 

This is more the nuCLEus vibe so far: :P 

 

 

 

This HS39 Bill and Nucleus  are definitely joined at the hips. I get this eerie feeling that that SB39 like nucleus is going nowhere. 

The feeling i get is that it will will be put off from week to week and then all of a sudden the year is over and  we are out of time. 

 I hope I am wrong.

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

This HS39 Bill and Nucleus  are definitely joined at the hips. I get this eerie feeling that that SB39 like nucleus is going nowhere. 

The feeling i get is that it will will be put off from week to week and then all of a sudden the year is over and  we are out of time. 

 I hope I am wrong.

 

But by expecting nothing, you've prepared yourself so you can avoid being disappointed, right? Good for you!

8 hours ago, KJP said:

 

I have no idea why the bill continues to seemingly have no urgency -it’s confounding I am not as psychologically prepared as @simplythis I suppose.  However, that’s my favorite skyline photo of Cleveland! 

20 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

I have no idea why the bill continues to seemingly have no urgency -it’s confounding I am not as psychologically prepared as @simplythis I suppose.  However, that’s my favorite skyline photo of Cleveland! 

 

Thanks! I took that from Pier W during one of my 30-minute walks in early November. 

One of the great benefits of living on the Gold Coast in the 80's was having easy access to Pier W, which at the time was owned by Stouffers (along with John Qs, Top of the Town). I guess the Biggers have divested all interest in Vernon Stouffers' jewels. 

 

Glad to hear it's still open.

Edited December 5, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

Actually, I took the photo in the morning before they opened. There's an outside deck above the restaurant that's open to the public. In the summer, it's used as an outdoor dining/bar area for Pier W.