The renting market is much more saturated than the for sale condo market though.

3 hours ago, shack said:

If that were true the success of  The Beacon  would have improved the chances of NuCLEaus being built considering that the two locations are closer together. 

 

The office component cannot be built without substantial subsidies which have not yet been provided to this or other proposed for-lease office projects.

5 hours ago, WindyBuckeye said:

The renting market is much more saturated than the for sale condo market though.

"Saturated" or "occupied"?

 

We have a high occupancy rate.  it's not like we have apartment sitting on the market for months. Downtown neighborhoods, can't convert buildings or space fast enough.  Now areas in Ohio City, Det-SW, Goodrich/AsiaTown, and Central are seeing development.  St. Clair - Superior and Western Midtown are the next to expand.  

 

As long as developers continue to put apartment units online, without building "for purchase" units, rentals will continue to be built and for a premium.

Does Nucleus have to be done in one phase? Couldnt Stark build the residential tower first? 

46 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

"Saturated" or "occupied"?

 

We have a high occupancy rate.  it's not like we have apartment sitting on the market for months. Downtown neighborhoods, can't convert buildings or space fast enough.  Now areas in Ohio City, Det-SW, Goodrich/AsiaTown, and Central are seeing development.  St. Clair - Superior and Western Midtown are the next to expand.  

 

As long as developers continue to put apartment units online, without building "for purchase" units, rentals will continue to be built and for a premium.

I don’t think he meant saturated. But that the condo market downtown is a relative unknown, whereas 98% living downtown are renters. But yes, occupancy rates downtown are bullish AF. 

1 hour ago, CleveFan said:

Does Nucleus have to be done in one phase? Couldnt Stark build the residential tower first? 

 

Nucleus consists of a rather substantial pedestal of parking and retail plus the towers built atop it for residential and office. So the pedestal as Stark has planned it would be rather substantial because it would have to eventually support both towers. Structured parking is not a financial money winner. It's even less lucrative when one of the two towers is absent to justify so much parking (and retail).

 

I suppose Stark could redesign the pedestal so it can also be built in phases.

3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

"Saturated" or "occupied"?

 

We have a high occupancy rate.  it's not like we have apartment sitting on the market for months. Downtown neighborhoods, can't convert buildings or space fast enough.  Now areas in Ohio City, Det-SW, Goodrich/AsiaTown, and Central are seeing development.  St. Clair - Superior and Western Midtown are the next to expand.  

 

As long as developers continue to put apartment units online, without building "for purchase" units, rentals will continue to be built and for a premium.

Marty expanded on more to what I meant as it’s more relevant but good point. I think the office portion is the biggest hurdle for nucleus. I should have clarified my message more.

Catch me up and gone for a while is this project being done or not

2 hours ago, osu87 said:

Catch me up and gone for a while is this project being done or not

Never get your hopes too high in this town unless you see actual digging. 

2 hours ago, shack said:

Never get your hopes too high in this town unless you see actual digging. 

 

This applies to the Sherwin-Williams thread as well.

@KJP by any chance, do you think the impending Sherwin-Williams decision be an impetus for nuCLEus to actually happen? If Stark is still trying to raise outside investment for this beleaguered project, I would have to think the idea of this Fortune 500 giant re-committing to downtown is a huge potential catalyst

Edited October 15, 20195 yr by NewtoCLE

^Only if it increases what office tenants are willing to commit to paying. Unfortunately (for Stark and us new construction fans), the Cleveland office market is way too weak for developers to demand much of a premium over the region's exceptionally low office rents. 

Just guessing but a SHW HQ built with a few hundred thousand extra square feet of office space for future SHW growth hurts nuCLEus' and Harbor Bay's office components. SHW is going to want to lease out the extra space in the near term.

Oh well; in the case of Nucleus, the neverending delays have created its place in the record books.

8 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Oh well; in the case of Nucleus, the neverending delays have created its place in the record books.

Though SHW taking up PS and the WHD lots doesn’t leave much ready to dig space in the CBD. Stark will probably end up selling it to someone more ambitious. Maybe at some point Geis will buy it and pair back up with J-Roc.

Hello again....

 

 

SATURDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2019

TMUD tax credit could be law in November; help big Cleveland projects

 

Skyline-changing legislation has suddenly sparked back to life in the Ohio legislature. Substitute Senate Bill 39, to create a tax credit for insurance companies to invest in Transformational Mixed Use Developments (TMUDs), could aid several big real estate developments in Cleveland.

If the legislation continues on what appears to be a new, fast track, it could become law as early as next month.

 

MORE

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/10/tmud-tax-credit-could-be-law-in.html

Here's some more images from the new presentation, plus the retail spaces.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 20195 yr by KJP

Without a hotel component........  

 

Damn I saw this on loopnet a couple days ago but didn't realize it was new. This seems like the most likely point we've ever been at to actually see nucleus finally happen.

10 minutes ago, tykaps said:

Damn I saw this on loopnet a couple days ago but didn't realize it was new. This seems like the most likely point we've ever been at to actually see nucleus finally happen.

 

Don’t jinx this! ?

Whatever!

Edited October 28, 20195 yr by X
Please don't quote 10 pictures, it makes threads tedious to scroll through.

49 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

Without a hotel component........  

 

That empty space on top of the garage could be for expansion. I see possible future development for either a hotel or added residential. Whatever the market demands.

5 minutes ago, freethink said:

That empty space on top of the garage could be for expansion. I see possible future development for either a hotel or added residential. Whatever the market demands.

Could?  Is that is being planned, yes or no?

6 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

Could?  Is that is being planned, yes or no?

Just speculation, and Starks recent project on top of 515.

 

Also does anyone know is this still NBBJ?

Edited October 27, 20195 yr by freethink

2 minutes ago, freethink said:

Just speculation, and Starks recent project on top of 515.

With all due respect, lets not speculate as that will take the discussion in a whole different direction.  515 was designed and built for a tower addition.  At this point, very different things.  IMO, not adding a hotel component, is short sighted.

10 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

With all due respect, lets not speculate as that will take the discussion in a whole different direction.  515 was designed and built for a tower addition.  At this point, very different things.  IMO, not adding a hotel component, is short sighted.

Speculation is kind of what we do here.

1 minute ago, freethink said:

Speculation is kind of what we do here.

 

However, in this instance we are talking about one specific thing.  

 

So I'll ask in another more definite manner.  Will this project be constructed, so that in the future, towers can be built upon existing structures, yes or no?

 

So that this doesn't go off topic, I'm suggestion we table this until more concrete plans are revealed.

 

Just now, MyTwoSense said:

 

 

And YOU get a hotel! And YOU get a hotel! And YOU get a hotel! 

Thanks for the usual well written, informative article KJP. I know a lot of people are completely frustrated with Nucleus, but that detailed new presentation doesn’t look like Stark is just looking for publicity- I think they’re gonna take it to the finish line ( with the House Bill seemingly made to order .) 

I have my complaints with some design elements but I’d definitely like to see Nucleus happen - it would help continue the momentum downtown and add a significant vibrancy and energy to the district. 

20 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

However, in this instance we are talking about one specific thing.  

 

So I'll ask in another more definite manner.  Will this project be constructed, so that in the future, towers can be built upon existing structures, yes or no?

 

So that this doesn't go off topic, I'm suggestion we table this until more concrete plans are revealed.

 

 

I would seriously doubt Stark is humble enough to build a garage that would allow for future additions and NOT make that fact a visible part of his proposal.

Kinda wish they would change the design. I still don't like the blank wall facing the south or the height. Will have to see how the colors turn out though. 

For what it is worth (knowing this is hardly the final product) the retail conceptual looks better than the previous version

1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

I would seriously doubt Stark is humble enough to build a garage that would allow for future additions and NOT make that fact a visible part of his proposal.

From a design perspective, it's somewhat disappointing that the parking deck does not feature some form of facade or coverage above the storefronts of the laneway. It really distracts from the aesthetics of the retail and the "intimate" ambiance that Stark had originally intended for that space.  

1 hour ago, drewbvargo said:

From a design perspective, it's somewhat disappointing that the parking deck does not feature some form of facade or coverage above the storefronts of the laneway. It really distracts from the aesthetics of the retail and the "intimate" ambiance that Stark had originally intended for that space.  

Agreed. This is my biggest problem with the design. There are so many creative ways out there to add facades to decks. In the retail alley, I wish they would put up some sort of artwork covering the deck like it looks Church and State will do. 

I’m just so happy that this thing looks like it may finally get done that I’m not going to nitpick. Nucleus is really going to be transformational

2 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

Agreed. This is my biggest problem with the design. There are so many creative ways out there to add facades to decks. In the retail alley, I wish they would put up some sort of artwork covering the deck like it looks Church and State will do. 

Parking garages are best built underground. In my travels to Dallas ive noticed that alot of their garages are underground and out of sight

14 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Without a hotel component........  

 

And hopefully a hotel of some size.  Expand the CC, move IX Center functions downtown and build a 400-500 room hotel in conjunction with Nucleus

24 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

Parking garages are best built underground. In my travels to Dallas ive noticed that alot of their garages are underground and out of sight

Where exactly in Dallas?  I don't find that to be true.  But we may be thinking of different areas.

13 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

Where exactly in Dallas?  I don't find that to be true.  But we may be thinking of different areas.

Downtown...and this is jusy my limited observation

51 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

I’m just so happy that this thing looks like it may finally get done that I’m not going to nitpick. Nucleus is really going to be transformational

See, I'm not OK with "just getting it done".  I see that as problematic down the line.  Example:  The Cleveland Rapid.  Example the river side of Tower City, where there was to be NM, plus two residential towers.

 

I don't think its trans-formative without a hotel and ensuring the retail included book ends with the Old Arcade.  What I define as "transformative" would be the current buildings, plus condos/coops and a hotel.  That would be a game changer.  That would be a plus for Gateway, East 4th and lower Euclid. 

 

He teased us with a grand project, but for whatever reasons, most likely??, this is just another building. I'm glad a development is being built, as there is less and less open development space in downtown, but I'm tired of seeing half-assed projects.

Edited October 27, 20195 yr by MyTwoSense
Typos ??‍♂️

1 minute ago, B767PILOT said:

Downtown...and this is jusy my limited observation

 

I was thinking of buying an apartment in Downtown Dallas, most of there parking is street level/at grade.  I was thinking of buying a unit across from Klyde Warren park, the museum Tower and a few other buildings that came with a parking space.  Most of buildings I saw are built on pedestals.

 

back to nucleus......

6 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

See, I'm not OK with "just getting it done".  I see that as problematic down the line.  Example:  The Cleveland Rapid.  Example the river side of Tower City, where there was to be NM, plus two residential towers.

 

I don't think its trans-formative without a hotel and ensuring the retail included book ends with the Old Arcade.  What I define as "transformative" would be the current buildings, plus condos/coops and a hotel.  That would be a game changer.  That would be a plus for Gateway, East 4th and lower Euclid. 

 

He teased us with a grand project, but for whatever reasons, most likely??, this is just another building. I'm glad a development is being built, as there is less and less open development space in downtown, but I'm tired of see half assed projects.

My god, YES.  I know its other peoples money but for once I would like to see a grand project be built - outside the box- visionary - future looking.  Risky for sure but the pay-off could be incalcuable

3 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

Agreed. This is my biggest problem with the design. There are so many creative ways out there to add facades to decks. In the retail alley, I wish they would put up some sort of artwork covering the deck like it looks Church and State will do. 

?. Not only the aesthetics from the lane way, but also sound. If some sort of covering could deflect the noise of vehicles in the garage it would be a major plus.

"He teased us with a grand project, but for whatever reasons, most likely, this is just another building. I'm glad a development is being built, as there is less and less open development space in downtown, but I'm tired of seeing half-assed projects."

 

It comes down to their ability (or inability) to execute the vision flawlessly.

 

I simply don't have confidence that the project will be well executed. I still see issues with the Beacon that should have been remedied and it would appear that residents are already moving in.  They're simple, unresolved issues that if addressed, would significantly improve the quality of the finished project.

Edited October 27, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

I don't know....2 million square feet is a grand project to me. It's larger than anything currently planned, including Sherwin-Williams HQ+R&D, The Centennial and possibly even the Justice Center (courthouse tower only). Of course, it's still just a grand idea. It won't be a grand project until it sees construction. 

It is. Let's all hope he can successfully pull it off!

15 minutes ago, KJP said:

I don't know....2 million square feet is a grand project to me. It's larger than anything currently planned, including Sherwin-Williams HQ+R&D, The Centennial and possibly even the Justice Center (courthouse tower only). Of course, it's still just a grand idea. It won't be a grand project until it sees construction. 

I mean really you can think of this building as building a comp for downtown. You can expect better designs to come as rents become higher and completing capital stacks become easier. But there always need to be the first few pioneers to create that "comp" if you will.

 

First we had a building get built on an existing parking deck, then one heavily subsidized by a non profit not trying to necessarily make a return. This is one more step in a positive direction if it gets completed. 

On 10/26/2019 at 2:17 PM, shack said:

Never noticed the pink bars until someone here pointed it out and I struggled to find them in person. I don't think they are such a big deal or the garage interface. Its part of the eclectic (or eccentric) quality of the building that I find so interesting. There's an off center, paradigm shift setting theme that runs throughout the exterior of the building. 

Are you certain it's larger than the Centennial?  Each floor is huge, and it's twenty stories - not that much shorter.

11 hours ago, B767PILOT said:

Parking garages are best built underground. In my travels to Dallas ive noticed that alot of their garages are underground and out of sight

 

You right that IDEALLY PARKING GARAGES should be built UNDERGROUND as much as possible!

 

BUT it's alot more expensive to build UNDERGROUND then above ground and with so tight of a building budget ALREADY there is no extra money to do so.

 

Now in case of where they have to build piles like The Lumen Tower because of the height/weight of the building and you have to first dig out for one or more basements before the piles then it makes sense to use some of that extra space for underground parking.

Edited October 28, 20195 yr by Larry1962