^My understanding is that the Herold Building was part of the purchase by Stark, but it is not part of the new construction.  It and the parking lot next to it are to be renovated and built upon, although point is rarely discussed in the many news articles.  I guess not sexy enough.

I'd suggest that CLE is a placeholder for CB2, if you're familiar with that retailer's branding.

 

Damn look what I started today. That's pretty close to the massing. At first look it's what I was hoping for. Very nice.

 

Now I am greedy, give me the Ferrari building too :-D

I'll be amazed if we see anything like this full buildout in the next 10 years, but I like the renderings.

C'mon, really.  Do we not get this yet?  UO is a SFW website.

 

-X

At first glance, I like it but don't love it; going to continue the cautious optimism.

^I probably like the design more than May Day but I have to echo his "cautious optimism".  There is just something about all this hype that is rubbing me the wrong way.  I guess what I really want to say is SHOW ME THE MONEY.

The one rendering omits the skywalk between the parking garage and the Q. That would be nice.

 

Oooh now that's interesting. What are the odds that the skywalk is actually being removed vs. that being an aesthetic choice for the rendering?

The one rendering omits the skywalk between the parking garage and the Q. That would be nice.

 

Oooh now that's interesting. What are the odds that the skywalk is actually being removed vs. that being an aesthetic choice for the rendering?

 

My big money is on that it was just an artistic decision for the renderings

Very impressive from a height perspective although I am not a big fan of very modern buildings.  They are going to look very outdated in 20 -30  years similar to how the Brutalist buildings from the 70's are outdated now.

 

But, I really like the concept of the hotel in the "bridge".  This looks like it is going to be about 300 - 350 feet tall itself.

Very impressive from a height perspective although I am not a big fan of very modern buildings.  They are going to look very outdated in 20 -30  years similar to how the Brutalist buildings from the 70's are outdated now.

 

But, I really like the concept of the hotel in the "bridge".  This looks like it is going to be about 300 - 350 feet tall itself.

 

Everything looks outdated eventually. Personally I just hope for proper massing and urban principles that never go out of style. The actual design is not as important.

Anybody seeing something odd about this photo? Pour one out for one our lost homies.:drunk:

 

Very impressive from a height perspective although I am not a big fan of very modern buildings.  They are going to look very outdated in 20 -30  years similar to how the Brutalist buildings from the 70's are outdated now.

 

Oh I think CLE desperately needs something, anything, modern to liven the skyline. This rendering is fantastic to me...

Very impressive from a height perspective although I am not a big fan of very modern buildings.  They are going to look very outdated in 20 -30  years similar to how the Brutalist buildings from the 70's are outdated now.

 

But, I really like the concept of the hotel in the "bridge".  This looks like it is going to be about 300 - 350 feet tall itself.

 

Everything looks outdated eventually. Personally I just hope for proper massing and urban principles that never go out of style. The actual design is not as important.

 

I think a classic skyscraper like the Terminal Tower or Key Tower will never look outdated.  And the Empire State Building and Chrysler Building in NYC are other examples.  Yes, they are not the current style, but are still classics that are not tired looking. 

 

A good example of what I mean is the Justice center.  It was a modern building for its time, but its architectural style is tiresome today.

 

I just spent the last 15 minutes looking at the renderings, and I like it- I like everything about this project so far!  I don't want to get too far ahead of myself... but I sure as heck wasn't expecting this to be over 600 feet.  The design I like as well.

 

First look: nuCLEus project renderings show 54-story tower in downtown Cleveland (gallery)

 

By Michelle Jarboe McFee, The Plain Dealer

on January 08, 2015 at 5:27 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A residential tower at the nuCLEus project in downtown Cleveland could stand 54 stories - or 647 feet - high, making it the city's fourth-tallest building.

 

The developers behind the skyline-changing nuCLEus proposal filed their first crop of renderings with the city Thursday. The images show how Stark Enterprises of Cleveland and J-Dek Investments Ltd. of Solon hope to fit apartments, offices, stores, restaurants, hotel rooms, parking garages and - possibly - a few dozen condominiums onto a 3-acre site in the Gateway District.

 

J-Dek and Stark also confirmed that they've hired NBBJ as the lead architect on the project, which now carries an estimated price tag of $380 million to $400 million. Bialosky + Partners Architects, a local firm, will assist NBBJ designers from Columbus, New York and Shanghai.

 

"This is an exciting stage in our development process," Bob Stark, president and chief executive officer of Stark Enterprises, said in a written statement. "NBBJ's international reputation and experience will help us create something that is truly iconic for Cleveland."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/01/first_look_nucleus_project_ren.html#incart_river

Holy sh#t! 54 stories standing at 647 feet?! Amazing. This seems like something you see in Chicago, hopefully this lights a fire under architects designing buildings for Downtown Cleveland.

I like is a LOT. I like how envelope pushing it is ... especially for CLE. This looks like something I'd expect to see in Montreal or Chicago or Austin. And the height is a HUGE bonus.

 

I'm impressed. The momentum and excitement this project brings is tantalizing.

Has this been in secret developments for years?  The one rendering shows The Columbia Building still standing.

 

^Looks like they utilize Google Earth Pro which might still have the Columbia.  Interesting note, Google has Fifth Third on Superior about 150' too tall in all their 3d software.

Love the design. Will love it more if it gets built.

Love the design. Will love it more if it gets built.

 

Ditto!

looks fine. the horizontal hotel bridge is downright funk-aay.

 

we'll see if ironman tony stark can rise above hype and pull it off this time. in his case thats a big what if. it will take shovels in the ground and rising steel to do that.

Love the location and the size, especially the height.

 

I'm not a big fan of the design.  One of the clevecom commenters nailed it:  "Today's trendy is tomorrow's eyesore".  More to the point, there's just something ragged looking about it and that minimizes the height.  I had to count stories, it looked about 20 short at first glance.

looks fine. the horizontal hotel bridge is downright funk-aay.

 

we'll see if ironman tony stark can rise above hype and pull it off this time. in his case thats a big what if. it will take shovels in the ground and rising steel to do that.

 

I obviously am familiar with Stark's WHD plans, but were there other times that plans of his never came to fruition? You all are making it sound like he's known to be a super flaky developer.

Love the location and the size, especially the height.

 

I'm not a big fan of the design.  One of the clevecom commenters nailed it:  "Today's trendy is tomorrow's eyesore".  More to the point, there's just something ragged looking about it and that minimizes the height.  I had to count stories, it looked about 20 short at first glance.

 

I agree.  It looks clunky, frankly.  I think it would be more palatable at 20-25 stories, which would blend in better with the heights of surrounding buildings and make downtown look more dense. 

 

My other concern is that this thing (if built, which is a big if) saps momentum for residential conversions of May Company, Huntington, and other vacant or near-vacant commercial properties.  It is just so big, it's going to take a long time for the market to absorb that much new residential, even assuming the current boom continues.  Something akin to the effect Key Tower had on office space downtown.

looks fine. the horizontal hotel bridge is downright funk-aay.

 

we'll see if ironman tony stark can rise above hype and pull it off this time. in his case thats a big what if. it will take shovels in the ground and rising steel to do that.

 

I obviously am familiar with Stark's WHD plans, but were there other times that plans of his never came to fruition? You all are making it sound like he's known to be a super flaky developer.

 

I don't think many here are trying to make Stark out to be a flaky developer, just that there have been so many announced projects over the last quarter century and the majority have not had a ground breaking, or steel rising, including Stark's Warehouse Project.

 

Remember Ameritrust Center and the glass tower after it, both announced for the Jacobs PS site. How about Courthouse Square on Lakeside Ave. just west of west 9th street. There was also plans for the Museum of Transportation & Industry on the lakefront; the never constructed condo tower on E. 6th & Euclid, etc.. These are just a few of the un-built projects that were announced in the past.

 

I will smile a lot more when I see ground broken, and steel rising for NuCLEus.

 

 

^^I think the effects on downtown residential would be a little more ambiguous than that. We've seen bigger unit counts than this project drop on the downtown market in some years between several smaller projects. That supply may be slowing rent increases, but it doesn't seem to be killing the pipeline. Seems likely this project could wipe out a lot of demand at the very highest end of the market, including condo buyers, but that may be expanding downtown's market as much as it's cannibalizeing it.

 

Also, if Stark is able to line up some decent retail in the first phase, that will only make downtown more appealing to more potential renters. And whatever supply effects this new inventory would mean, there's definitely some countervailing critical mass/market-proving benefits to the overall downtown housing market.

 

Given that the parking/retail phase I is more imminent and much more likely in the next several years than the full buildout, I'd really like to see some renderings just of that.

I obviously am familiar with Stark's WHD plans, but were there other times that plans of his never came to fruition? You all are making it sound like he's known to be a super flaky developer.

 

Having covered for Sun News Stark's Crocker Park project from idea to ribbon-cutting, and also breaking the story on his Pesht concept for the Warehouse District, I got to know Bob Stark fairly well about 10 years ago. Before Crocker Park, Stark was well-known for his strip shopping centers. And that's it. But he began to add elements of placemaking to his strip centers and power centers, such as the Cinemark at Valley View or the Promenade in Westlake. In fact, the plaza next to Borders at the Promenade was the spark of his inspiration for Crocker Park, as were neo-traditional developments in Florida like Mizner Park, Boca Raton and, to a lesser degree, Disney's Celebration.

 

But the Promenade itself was supposed to be more than what it was when Stark first proposed it and sought rezoning for it in the late 1980s. Instead of a strip shopping center, it was to be a mixed-used development adding a hotel, offices and an indoor atrium to his retail. Instead, Westlake got a strip center. So when Stark announced Crocker Park and listed all of the retailers who had signed letters of intent, including his intended anchor Nordstrom's, some people were very excited. Others who were skeptical had their skepticism justified when Nordstrom's never came -- nor did any other department store. So his reputation of over-promising continued and later was strongly reinforced with the failure of Pesht.

 

Let's be fair about a couple of things with Pesht. First, he didn't have full site control. He was going to develop properties owned by Weston. He also needed TIF financing from the county for infrastructure improvements and more control over the design of city streets in Warehouse District. Neither the county or city were buying what he was selling. Stark lamented that county and city officials could not grasp what he was planning and were very difficult to work with. After the first phase of Crocker Park opened in the fall of 2004 and I broke the story of Pesht soon thereafter, Cleveland's foreclosure crisis was already leading the nation into the Great Recession. Cleveland was one the nation's first no-fly zone for lenders. At the same time, Stark was now fighting cancer and his son Ezra had not yet jumped into the family business. So Pesht wasn't going anywhere. Even Weston, which did have site control, tried to make its own scaled-down version of Pesht happen along Frankfort but failed too.

 

Yet Crocker Park, aside from the Nordstrom's/department store omission, is just about everything Stark said it would be. When it opened in 2004 at a cost of more than $400 million (and still climbing with the addition of housing and American Greetings's HQ), it was no small endeavor. Same with Eton Collection, which is somewhere between a strip mall and new urbanism. What is there now is certainly an improvement over what stood before and is a significant investment. Stark is one of the few real estate developers in Northeast Ohio who is willing to experiment with his designs, retail mixes and incorporating pedestrianism and mixed use. He wants his developments to be more than conduits for him and his tenants to make money. He wants customers to remember where they spent their money (hence his motto: "It's all about the experience"). Most other developers are content with replicating cookie-cutter conduits that get a new facade every 10-20 years.

 

Sometimes his eyes are bigger than his muscles which cannot always lift what he wants to deliver. But I think that's the essence of his desire to experiment and try new things. And each time he finds something that succeeds, he'll create new cookie-cutter molds for others to replicate. A new-construction, mixed-use, high-rise in downtown is certainly a pioneering endeavor for downtown Cleveland. And I wouldn't expect anyone other than Bob Stark to be the first to try it. Now that I'm out of the newspaper business, I can officially say: "I'm pulling for you, Bob."

Great insight. Thank you, KJP! If nothing else, his rhetoric is at least inspiring. We'll see what happens, but I'm leaning a bit more on the optimistic side regarding this project.

As for Stark, it's time to move on.  Whatever he did in the past is of little consequence now because he currently is putting his money where his mouth is which, however, consistent with his bold promises of the past -- he's conceived a development that is big; really big; a total game-changer...

 

As for the design: I really like the rendering Michelle highlights in her article which, apparently, is the one being submitted to the CPC.  It's bold, daring yet physically attractive and modern imho.  And esp breaking with Cleveland's more recent short-building past (sans the currently a-building Hilton a few blocks away), it's vertical!! The one (hotel) bridge is highly innovative and will draw the architectural eyes of the world onto Cleveland... I'm glad they're not going with that one concept drawing with the 2 bridges, which is an ugly monstrosity -- it looks like a futuristic Rube-Goldberg smelting factory on steroids.  The correct concept is moving forward.

 

This tower will probably dwarf the nearby Terminal Tower, just because of its size, density and eye-catching nature.  And as i noted several pages ago, this project is going to alter downtown's paradigm in terms of main retail/energy locus... Prospect will be the new center of activity, certainly from a recreational, retail and residential standpoint although, of course, Euclid will still functionally remain Cleveland's main street, at least geographically (it's the central, main, longest street out of downtown where, over a distance of miles, it forms the spine of business, education, medical, business, etc...).  But make no mistake, in downtown, Prospect will now be THE STREET.

... and with high-density of apartment and hotel residents that will be plopped down in this relatively small space just a few blocks away from the soon-to-open supermarket at Euclid/E. 9th, I'm sure the Heinen brothers are salivating right about now.

This tower will probably dwarf the nearby Terminal Tower, just because of its size, density and eye-catching nature.

 

In my view, this is a negative.  Both 600'+ towers in the vicinity were designed to compliment Terminal Tower.  This clashes with all three of them.

 

As was said earlier, this design would be fine for a 20-25 style building.  But for something that's going to be a focal point of the skyline?  Not so good.

 

In my view, this is a negative.  Both 600+ towers in the vicinity were designed to compliment Terminal Tower.  This clashes with all three of them.

 

As was said earlier, this design would be fine for a 20-25 style building.  But for something that's going to be a focal point of the skyline?  Not so good.

 

Oh there's going to be some push-back because of what you say... As you know, downtown Cleveland buildings seem either big or small depending on one's approach to the city.  From the Shoreway East, nuCLEus will probably appear a lot less dominant than from I-71 SW...

I don't see this potentially taking renters away from May and Huntington if those are converted.  Would it be safe to assume that the rents in Starks development would be much higher than the typical rents that you would see in a historic building conversion?

I know everyone was let down by the Warehouse District proposal (which if this is successful will surely be the next puzzle piece to fall), but this time just feels different. I think Bob Stark feels that  too. Downtown as little as 3 years ago was much different than it is now. Residential living back then was still in it's infancy with Pinnacle being...well... the Pinnacle of downtown housing.

 

Fast forward a short time and we have some serious momentum going on right now. Far from the occasional building conversion  of the past. It seems like the good news just keeps coming. Even the neighborhood development just feels like it's really picking up steam. I think we can confidently say that 2014 was the year Cleveland turned the corner. The rest of the world is beginning to realize this too.

 

Personally, I feel like that is the difference between Pesht and this. Back then, that felt like a dream. This feels real

looks fine. the horizontal hotel bridge is downright funk-aay.

 

we'll see if ironman tony stark can rise above hype and pull it off this time. in his case thats a big what if. it will take shovels in the ground and rising steel to do that.

 

I obviously am familiar with Stark's WHD plans, but were there other times that plans of his never came to fruition? You all are making it sound like he's known to be a super flaky developer.

 

I don't think many here are trying to make Stark out to be a flaky developer, just that there have been so many announced projects over the last quarter century and the majority have not had a ground breaking, or steel rising, including Stark's Warehouse Project.

 

Remember Ameritrust Center and the glass tower after it, both announced for the Jacobs PS site. How about Courthouse Square on Lakeside Ave. just west of west 9th street. There was also plans for the Museum of Transportation & Industry on the lakefront; the never constructed condo tower on E. 6th & Euclid, etc.. These are just a few of the un-built projects that were announced in the past.

 

I will smile a lot more when I see ground broken, and steel rising for NuCLEus.

 

 

 

That is true but those weren't all Stark developments.  I think the WHD project from Stark was a little too ambitious, plus he owns the nuCLEus property unlike the WHD lots.  I would think that would help speed this up a bit no?

^It is like any development project large or small...can he "position" the project so he can get the financing.  We all know this is the big nut.  At this time he does not have it.

Some interesting tidbits from Michelle in the comments section of her nuCLEus article:

 

Thanks for commenting. The question about new office space is a fair one. In the case of the Flats East Bank project, most of the tenants at the E&Y Tower came from other downtown buildings - many of them from the former Huntington Building at East Ninth Street and Euclid Avenue. Some of those tenants, including Ernst & Young, wanted newer, more efficient space, which wasn't available in the central business district.

Tenants who want a different sort of product are driving demand, but the overall office vacancy rate in downtown Cleveland doesn't make a slam-dunk case for new construction.

It will be interesting to see whether the Flats developers can line up enough tenants to support a second, smaller office building, whether Stark and J-Dek can generate enough interest to make nuCLEus happen and whether there's demand for potential office space at the proposed Cumberland Development/Trammell Crow project on the downtown lakefront. And, of course, there are other downtown properties that have cropped up as potential office-construction sites over the years.

 

Michelle

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/01/first_look_nucleus_project_ren.html#incart_river

 

I think I've identified the "inspiration" for this design....

 

 

On a serious note, my initial reaction is skepticism.  Nobody around here aims higher and bigger than Stark.  We saw that with Pescht, which I'm not sure would've been fully built even without the market crash.  My other thought was that I don't care for the height in this location.  I would actually prefer more equality between the two towers, taking 10-15 floors off the taller one and adding them to the smaller tower.  JMHO.

I don't see this potentially taking renters away from May and Huntington if those are converted.  Would it be safe to assume that the rents in Starks development would be much higher than the typical rents that you would see in a historic building conversion?

 

I agree! I too do not see the NuCLEus project taking away from other apt. projects announced, and it the works. The majority of the apt. projects announced are to be in rehabbed/repurposed buildings vs NuCLEus which is new. Of the three new apt/condo projects announced for downtown CLE in the last number of years, two (E. 6th & Euclid, and the proposed Ferrari project) are either already dead, or most likely dead. I could be wrong though. The East Bank Apt. project is the only new project currently under construction.

 

I am not counting the CSU apts. as those were build for the most part to meet the housing demand for students of CSU who want to live on campus.

 

Think about it, on the thread that discuss downtown living there are plenty of reports showing a very high demand for apts downtown. The projection is for 20k residents living in downtown CLE by 2020/2021. If these projections for demand for downtown living are correct, with a population of 20k vs the current 13k, that means an increase of 7k more residents in approx. 5-6 years. With that many new/potential residents, 500 new apts/condo's in the NuCLEus project, would definitely  not have a negative impact on the other already announced projects. The NuCLEus project will attract those who not only want new apts/cond's over rehabbed/repurposed  buildings, but those who can afford the higher rents too.

500 apt's/condo's in a downtown that will need approx. 4k-5k apt's/condo's by 2020/2021 only meets about 10% of the future need.

 

The 200,000 sq ft of office space as part of the Nucleus project is not really a lot of office space for a downtown that has approx. 24-25 million sq ft already. The office space need thread for downtown CLE has said there is going to be a need for new class "A" office space, and that for any company looking to either move downtown, of relocate from their current downtown office space into other class "A" office space in the near future, there are very few options if the need is for 100,00 sq ft or more. So the 200,00 sq ft Nucleus is proposing as part of its project would help downtown IMO.

 

To me the riskiest part of the Nucleus project is the hotel rooms, but I could be wrong. What with all the hotel rooms currently under construction, can the CLE support another hotel? I don't know.

 

 

Projects like nuCLEus and others in Downtown Cleveland aren't just drawing from the metro but from more expensive cities where it seems people are looking for less expensive, high-amenity cities. And the recent press from coastal publications (starting at: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4179.msg739337.html#msg739337) that Cleveland is a top city to visit in 2015 can't hurt in getting the word out that we're worth a look. And charging $2 to $3 per square foot for new-build residential with quality finishes is a huge bargain to them.

Channel 19 Story. http://www.19actionnews.com/story/27804230/new-drawings-released-of-downtown-development-project-nucleus

The only thing I would change to the tower's design is the randomly-placed balconies. Besides that, I like the look of the building. Placing the hotel in the bridge portion is a really interesting concept, too.

 

It looks clunky, frankly.  I think it would be more palatable at 20-25 stories, which would blend in better with the heights of surrounding buildings and make downtown look more dense. 

 

 

 

aww man the irony of your handle….!  :wink:

I'm very hopeful for this project and for a soon ground breaking date. I'm hearing it could be complete by 2017.

i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built

 

i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built

 

I love the design and project, but I think it slows down other residential projects from breaking ground.  I think developers will sit back, and see how this masssive project absorbs the market before they kick anything off. 

i wonder the if the nucleus project helps or hinders the proposed Ferrari showroom/condo tower.  I would love to see both projects built

 

I love the design and project, but I think it slows down other residential projects from breaking ground.  I think developers will sit back, and see how this masssive project absorbs the market before they kick anything off. 

 

How does it hinder?  With almost no vacancy rate downtown, this is just keeping up with demand.  Plus, not everyone will want live in a high rise (I personally love it).  I take the opposite view.  This may very well spur the construction of more speculative ventures and ease the conversion of May Company/Huntington.  New construction (which is lagging in CLE) of apartments as signals growth.  There is plenty of room for both conversion and new.

 

As for the design, it's neither good nor bad.  But it is unique for CLE.  I've read above where today's chic is tomorrow's eyesore.  But if properly maintained, it will be a differnt take on the skyline for some decades to come.

forget about the Ferarri dealership. Not happening. Never was