We need to get out of the business of subsidizing parking garages like this. Not only are structured garages massive density killers, they requires the floor plates which also kills fine grain urbanism. Plus, all of this parking for hotels above all is so antiquated it's painful. I read a recent study of the effects of Uber/Lyft on parking supply and demand in the Sydney CBD. The study suggested that the emergence of the popular ride sharing rendered obsolete 6-7,000 spaces in the CBD. And this is in a city that already discourages developers to put parking in. Cincinnati now has rail transit, bike share, and Uber/Lyft. I think it's time we elevate the expectation of a more urban outcome. At the very least it can start with not accepting any development with any more than a 1:1 unit to car park space ratio and ensuring retail/commercial activity on the first 2 floors, not just the ground floor.

 

I don't think that the banks have caught on to this new reality.  Right now the hotels probably can't get the best financing if they dip under a specific parking ratio. 

 

Email [email protected] and say support the project, but reduce the parking subsidy and thereby the number of parking spaces.  W&S has announced they are going to build a 750 space parking garage 2 blocks away.  Let the private sector build garages and have the City subsidize more transit. 

 

Get the conversation started!

Demo fencing has been put up around the red cross building, looks like they are preparing for demo.

I wonder if 3CDC's long game is to build so many freaking garages that they drive the surface lot owners into selling out of the business.

The portion on the southern edge is still going to be a Holiday Inn, right? Or is the entire yellowish structure pictured above supposed to all be the garage? I'm just trying to see how these buildings all will fit on the site.  Also, isn't there an existing 5-6 story residential building on this block? That building won't be demolished to make way for this project, will it?

 

This project fills the half of the block closest to Sycamore. The Holiday Inn is at the corner of Broadway & 8th. The existing historic building will remain.

Email [email protected] and say support the project, but reduce the parking subsidy and thereby the number of parking spaces.  W&S has announced they are going to build a 750 space parking garage 2 blocks away.  Let the private sector build garages and have the City subsidize more transit. 

 

Get the conversation started!

 

It's also critical that new parking garages are built with flat floors so that they can be converted to other uses over time. (Dunnhumby Centre was designed this way, but it should be standard practice mandated by building code.) Maybe the demand for parking is there now, but will it still be there in 50 or 100 years? We need to build these structures with the future in mind so we don't have to demolish them and start over in a few decades.

^Good point, but how do you get from floor to floor if everything is level? Is there a helix in the center ala the 4th and Race garage?

^Good point, but how do you get from floor to floor if everything is level? Is there a helix in the center ala the 4th and Race garage?

You don't have to do a helix, you can have the ramps off to the side (like the Dunnhumby Centre garage, where the ramps are contained within a space that juts out to the west). If/when the floors get converted from garage, you can simply start at the top-most level and then remove the ramps as necessary.

 

 

580 Walnut's underground garage has level decks. 

^Good point, but how do you get from floor to floor if everything is level? Is there a helix in the center ala the 4th and Race garage?

You don't have to do a helix, you can have the ramps off to the side (like the Dunnhumby Centre garage, where the ramps are contained within a space that juts out to the west). If/when the floors get converted from garage, you can simply start at the top-most level and then remove the ramps as necessary.

 

Even if the ramps are contained within the basic shape of the building, that ramps could be demolished and new flat floors built in that portion of the building. However, if the entire floor is built on a slope like many parking garages, there is no chance of ever converting it to another use.

this would certainly cause less parking structures to be built... or at the very least, would cause what is built to be much more carefully considered - while i'm sure causing some temper tantrums from developers. parking structures as built now are engineered structurally to be as bare bones and minimal as possible (read : cost less) the floor to floor heights are lower. structurally they actually have less stringent requirements for live load,  so their slabs are thinner or contain less reinforcement than office slabs, the column spacing is wider and the beams are shallower. dead load and deflection may have stricter reqs for office or residential as well, but i dont know that (a little counter-intuitive i thought at first - but imagine those garage slabs and the potential amount of people they could hold vs the amount of cars they are designed to hold + plus office furniture storage etc, and that weight adds up quickly) all of this to say that the more structural requirements imposed on parking structures, the higher the cost. i dont necessarily see this as a bad thing as it would discourage the building of parkign structures, but you will get significant pushback from developers if they see the price of parking go up from 15-16k/car, on an amenity that they believe is essential to securing tennants. In a lot of instances, these structures are what make or break a devleopment from a cost/benefit standpoint. ramps are one thing, but if i have to spend a lot more money on concrete or steel just in case it wants to be converted to office space some day when i might not own the structure - i might be a lot more hesitant to take that risk.

The Red Cross building on Sycamore is being torn down today. Hopefully this apartment/townhome structure comes to fruition.

I'd be very surprised at this point if it didn't. Generally developers won't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (or possibly even millions) on architectural fees for a project they have no intention of going through with. Obviously any number of things could happen, but approving the completion of construction documents and permitting is a huge step to take if they still had doubts about completing their project.

^Good point, but how do you get from floor to floor if everything is level? Is there a helix in the center ala the 4th and Race garage?

 

I think the perfect example of how not to build the garage would be a garage like the URS Center, or Deaconess Hospital garage

New details of $45M downtown apartment tower take shape

Apr 20, 2015, 2:46pm EDT

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter and columnist - Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The amount of retail space on the ground floor of a planned apartment tower at Eighth and Sycamore streets downtown has doubled and the project will cost at least $45 million, according to documents filed with the Cincinnati Planning Commission.

 

The city, Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. and developers led by North American Properties and NorthPointe Group are planning the nearly 1-acre project to create a 150 residential unit, 500-space garage with 10,000 square feet of retail space on the first floor.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/04/20/new-details-of-45m-downtown-apartment-tower-take.html

I seen that this tower will be 15 stories tall. Is that 15 stories on top of a garage or just 15 stories in total

I see the article you're drawing from. That sounds like just the tower portion. The renderings showed a 15 story tower portion on top of the garage. The garage, being separately built, is likely an additional 7 or so stories to those 15 stories. The design we've seen is still quite similar to the one being worked on.

 

The land deal was apparently really complicated because of not only the different parties involved but also because it was multiple parcels, a couple of which were had to be subdivided, air rights, and a former alleyway. All had different owners quite recently, and reworking all that so 3CDC could build a garage and North American could build a tower required this breakdown we're seeing. The wording is bad but this sounds like the finalized version of the plan is just as tall as what we originally saw.

 

The thing I'm not seeing mentioned in that most recent info are the townhomes that wrap the garage. I'm hoping those are still a part of the project but it's somewhat ambiguous in that description of the project.

Yeah I was curious about the townhomes also. The availability of for sale properties in CBD is extremely low. And adding townhomes in addition to the retail would do more to hide the garage and increase the density of the project.

Thank you for the info. I hope this project is 20 plus stories

 

Just seems like Cincinnati is scared to build tall and to add to the skyline

 

The town homes would be nice , and cover up the garage portion

It's not so much that Cincy is scared, it's that until now the finances just didn't make sense. And recent forays into highrise living close to the CBD didn't go well. Look at South Short Condominiums, The Ascent, or the most recent tower up in Eden Park. None have sold out even years later and the condo market has yet to really return to pre-recession levels.

 

This means the only way we'll be getting highrise living at the moment is through rental buildings. But until about a year or two ago the rents the city garnered just weren't enough to justify the huge cost associated with building up.

 

But we're now reaching that point where people are asking for condos and banks are starting to become more comfortable with lending for condo construction and price/sq. ft. is increasing in both rental and for sale units which is why we're starting to see proposals for much larger/taller buildings than we were five years ago.

 

I really hope the townhomes are still a part of this. Masking the garage along Sycamore will be a great feature that will bring more life to that street which is pretty dead along most of its entire length.

If we are entertaining ourselves with heights on this project it doesn't seem we should be underwhelmed with what looks to be a 20+ story tower.  Guessing 250 feet.  About the same as the Bartlett. ???

 

EDIT:  That rendering does it no justice.  I'd like to see more of an aerial.

According to the urban review board the building is around 300' tall and this was confirmed by someone I know working on the project. It's a sizable building and is really going to dominate that end of Downtown and add quite a bit to the skyline.

 

I also realized recently that I'll be able to see it from my condo at Race and 15th. Which will be nice.

For comparison, does anyone know how tall the apartment/garage at 7th and Broadway is?

It's just about 200' tall. Meaning this would be about half again as tall.

 

Or for another comparison, it would be about 1/3 taller than the Procter and Gamble towers.

 

It would just miss out on being the tallest residential building in the city to Edgecliff Point which is 322' tall.

 

This building will most closely resemble 312 Elm in terms of height which stands at 312' tall (imagine that).

jmicha: Is it you that does the mock-up massing(?) renderings for us?  That'd be nice.  ;)

Haha I've done some before, yes. I can definitely do some later tonight since I have nothing planned for this evening. I'll throw in everything we know about and some rumored buildings (W&S headquarters and residential building). Shouldn't take long to do so.

jmicha: Is it you that does the mock-up massing(?) renderings for us?  That'd be nice.  ;)

 

That's usually me.

jmicha: Is it you that does the mock-up massing(?) renderings for us?  That'd be nice.  ;)

 

That's usually me.

Well, bring it on! LOL!

I'm having trouble imagining the height of the apartment tower because in the rendering it doesn't look as tall as you all are indicating, i.e., taller than the P&G towers!  Yowza.

 

Are there two stories between the exterior tinted concrete headers of the tower's shell? 

 

I hope the retail/townhouse-wrapped aspect of the garage remains part of the plan.  So far, Senhauser hasn't changed or updated the rendering on his website but that doesn't mean the plans haven't changed.

Yes, there are two stories between each of the brown/tan/orange panels. The base is 7 stories and the tower is 15 or so stories including the mechanical parapet at the top.

 

Renderings without much context are often difficult. If this was facing the other way it would be much more obvious how it fits into the rest of the city.

Day for deals at Cincinnati City Hall

 

The development team, led by North American Properties, originally wanted to build a 150-unit tower above the new, city-owned garage, but that would have left a $4.7 million funding gap, so the administration negotiated a slightly smaller project of 130 units that will require a $3.5 million subsidy.

According to Black’s memo, reasons for the funding gap include:

 

* Building apartments on top of a parking garage adds “significant costs per unit as opposed to at-grade development.”

 

* North American did not factor the contribution it would have to make to the streetcar project in the form of a reduced property tax subsidy, which added another $1 million to the funding gap.

 

The memo also revealed that the tower will be 19 stories with four devoted to 500 parking spaces, a change from recent projects where the number of stories devoted to parking nearly equaled those devoted to residents.

So it sounds like the tower will be a handful of stories shorter and also sounds like the townhomes are gone. The tower portion sounds like it's exactly the same as previously proposed but the 24+/- townhomes are likely cut to get down to that 130 unit number. And that extra space allows for the garage to be larger per floor meaning less floors are needed for that scale garage. So we're likely to see a tower in the 260-280 foot range now. not really a dramatic change in height but unfortunate that it seems one of the most interesting aspects of the base is now gone.

Extrapolating the architect's rendering in Photoshop and applying it to a Sketchup model, here is a rough (*rough*) rendering of a tower at 275' at that location:

 

Columbia Parkway westbound

 

Reading Road northbound at the casino

 

From the top of the Kroger building

Thank you for posting.  It looks a lot more massive when you put it in like this than it does stand alone with the architects rendering.  Should be a good addition to the skyline either way.

So it sounds like the tower will be a handful of stories shorter and also sounds like the townhomes are gone. The tower portion sounds like it's exactly the same as previously proposed but the 24+/- townhomes are likely cut to get down to that 130 unit number. And that extra space allows for the garage to be larger per floor meaning less floors are needed for that scale garage. So we're likely to see a tower in the 260-280 foot range now. not really a dramatic change in height but unfortunate that it seems one of the most interesting aspects of the base is now gone.

 

Do you think they can still design it to accomodate the townhomes at a later date?  Or with the re-engineering of the ramp will this not be possible?  Would be nice if they can still add those on eventually once that market is a bit more stable.

No clue really. It's definitely possible to design level floor that could then be readjusted at a later date but it's highly unlikely they'd go through that process instead of just including them now. Which is unfortunate since having some for sale units in the project would have been nice.

This is way better than a aging garage. I just don't understand why Cincinnati is scared of color and height. Why Brown

I actually don't think that the condos were cut, I think the building will be shorter now.  Latest article says 19 stories, down from 21 in earlier renderings.

The thing is that the tower portion wasn't reduced, just the garage portion. But it's the same number of spaces. Meaning each floor would have to be bigger in the garage. The reduction of the exact number of townhomes from the unit count plus the reduction in garage floor count plus the lack of mention anywhere of the townhomes in recent information all adds up to saying they're going.

 

I hope I'm wrong though.

When all is said and done, at least we are getting a nice residential tower and new hotel that was once a massive parking ramp.  That is what I am excited about most!  Does anyone know the timeline on when this will start?  (I can look up but being lazy).

gahhh I hope the townhomes aren't all gone! Diversity of uses is super important, and they would shield the garage on at least one side.

Holiday Inn under construction at NW corner of 7th & Broadway:

 

The Urban Design Review Board will be meeting on 9/26 to discuss the garage and apartment building.  I guess we will see updated renderings around that time.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityofcincinnati/city-events/9-30-a-m-urban-design-review-board-meeting/

The Urban Design Review Board will be meeting on 9/26 to discuss the garage and apartment building.  I guess we will see updated renderings around that time.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityofcincinnati/city-events/9-30-a-m-urban-design-review-board-meeting/

 

That looks to be from September 2014.. i believe this project has all necessary approvals and construction should be visible soon.

Yeah they got the approvals necessary. Some changes have occurred but it sounds like not enough for the need to meet again.

The Urban Design Review Board will be meeting on 9/26 to discuss the garage and apartment building.  I guess we will see updated renderings around that time.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityofcincinnati/city-events/9-30-a-m-urban-design-review-board-meeting/

 

That looks to be from September 2014.. i believe this project has all necessary approvals and construction should be visible soon.

 

Crap, my bad.  Totally missed that important detail.

 

*Side note: Does anyone ever have problems accessing the lists or photo galleries on the Business Courier site? I tried Safari, Chrome, and Firefox to try to see the renderings yesterday, and I couldn't get the slideshow to open in any of them.  I've had this problem several times before, too.  Thankfully I was able to find the renderings on WCPO's site.

I've never had that problem. You've obviously found the renderings, but for future reference the project is also on John Senhauser's website. I check every once in awhile to see if it has been updated.

^ah, sorry. I was referring to the AC Hotel renders on the Business Courier site.

It looks like they have dug the hole for the tower crane.