8 minutes ago, PaxtonMarley said:

Crains is reporting this as a $520m project.  Any developer can build or upgrade 400 affordable apartments for less than a tenth of that cost, and residents will get far more amenities than at the Centennial.  No offense to the goods folks at Millennia, but this project does not pencil out.

It is more than that.  It is also some market rate apartments, retail space, a museum, restaurants and possibly a hotel.  The plumbing alone will cost a fortune given all the seperate units they are planning and I sure there will be many surprises in this 100 year old building.  I am sure there is tons of historic restoration involved.  They are not building some lowest common denominator on some greenfield. 

Edited January 28, 20232 yr by Htsguy

A museum?  What kind? 

7 minutes ago, Wtd7575 said:

A museum?  What kind? 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2018/05/millennia_buys_downtown_clevel.html

Sorry I'm late to the party

 

 

Centennial project downtown wins $15m HUD loan

By Ken Prendergast / January 29, 2023

 

The Centennial, one of downtown Cleveland’s most complicated, expensive and elusive redevelopment projects, got another sign that it is very much alive by winning a $15 million loan guarantee from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). The financial assistance will be provided through HUD’s Section 108 Loan Guarantee Program and will be used to help finance the nearly half-billion-dollar conversion of the former Huntington Building, 925 Euclid Ave., from mostly offices into primarily a residential property.

 

MORE 

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/01/29/centennial-project-downtown-wins-15m-hud-loan/

Hopefully we see evidence of this money being spent sooner than later. 

On 1/28/2023 at 10:50 AM, Htsguy said:

It is more than that.  It is also some market rate apartments, retail space, a museum, restaurants and possibly a hotel.  The plumbing alone will cost a fortune given all the seperate units they are planning and I sure there will be many surprises in this 100 year old building.  I am sure there is tons of historic restoration involved.  They are not building some lowest common denominator on some greenfield. 

That's actually more to my point.  This project doesn't know what it wants to be--a museum, maybe, hotel, perhaps, a marshmallow factory, sounds delicious but not likely.

 

If Sinito can't really explain the project, who's financing it, or why it's been delayed for 5+ years, how can anyone get behind it?

 

I am a huge CLE development backer, but I've clipped more Lakefront proposal articles or seen more Tower City renderings than I'd like to count.

 

On 1/28/2023 at 12:04 PM, Wtd7575 said:

A museum?  What kind? 

Apparently, a car museum.  

 

"The Centennial will house 864 affordable housing units with boutique hotel suites on several floors"

 

That seems like an odd combination.

 

40 minutes ago, PaxtonMarley said:

That's actually more to my point.  This project doesn't know what it wants to be--a museum, maybe, hotel, perhaps, a marshmallow factory, sounds delicious but not likely.

 

If Sinito can't really explain the project, who's financing it, or why it's been delayed for 5+ years, how can anyone get behind it?

Isn’t that kind of the point with a mixed-use project?  Just because there are multiple uses being planned to make renovating such a vast amount of space economically possible, that doesn’t mean the project doesn’t know what it wants to be.  This is one of the largest buildings downtown.  They couldn’t possibly find a single use for the whole thing.  Based on the number of apartment units in some of the other recent conversions, if this has 864 apartments, it seems like that would eat up the biggest share of the space.

 

As for who’s financing it, I don’t remember reading here where any other recent development identified the details of their capital stack.  Don’t they all typically keep that close to the vest until the financing closes?

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

 

Apparently, a car museum.  

 

"The Centennial will house 864 affordable housing units with boutique hotel suites on several floors"

 

That seems like an odd combination.

 

I believe 864 is the total number of apartments and the Crains article states that only 51% will be affordable which I guess means the rest will be market rate.

On 1/29/2023 at 4:18 PM, LibertyBlvd said:

 

Apparently, a car museum.  

 

"The Centennial will house 864 affordable housing units with boutique hotel suites on several floors"

 

That seems like an odd combination.

 

Will the two classes living together in such close proximity be able to get along with each other in the Grand Lobby? Seems like a risky proposition to me. Hope it works!

14 minutes ago, shack said:

Will the two classes living together in such close proximity be able to get along with each other in the Grand Lobby? Seems like a risky proposition to me. Hope it works!

Huh? I don't see this as risky at all. The affordable unit residents aren't going to be panhandling in the lobby or something. It's probably mostly going to be young adults.

44 minutes ago, shack said:

Will the two classes living together in such close proximity be able to get along with each other in the Grand Lobby? Seems like a risky proposition to me. Hope it works!

Scores of buildings in New York mix market rate and affordable units in a single building.

23 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Scores of buildings in New York mix market rate and affordable units in a single building.

 

A lot of them also have separate entrances (which may be illegal now?). But if fancy/self important ppl can't interact with "normal" people then maybe they shouldn't live downtown. Anywho....

I feel like Shack was being facetious lol or at least hope so!

55 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

A lot of them also have separate entrances (which may be illegal now?). But if fancy/self important ppl can't interact with "normal" people then maybe they shouldn't live downtown. Anywho....

Actually I was reading a NYT article a few days ago apparently that practice has been banned by the city.

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

A lot of them also have separate entrances (which may be illegal now?). But if fancy/self important ppl can't interact with "normal" people then maybe they shouldn't live downtown. Anywho....

Well, one could argue that if you can't afford to live downtown, maybe you shouldn't.

 

But if there's tax money/subsidy involved, which I'm sure this project has, then it's fine to reserve some affordable housing units. 

9 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Well, one could argue that if you can't afford to live downtown, maybe you shouldn't.

 

But if there's tax money/subsidy involved, which I'm sure this project has, then it's fine to reserve some affordable housing units. 

Isn't tax money/subsidy involved with every project here nowadays?  I don't think anyone is opposed to affordable housing downtown, it just seems odd having it in the heart of downtown.  But with such a large, vacant building, I suppose they need to be creative.

 

Edited February 8, 20232 yr by LibertyBlvd

2 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Huh? I don't see this as risky at all. The affordable unit residents aren't going to be panhandling in the lobby or something. It's probably mostly going to be young adults.

I sincerely hope so! Perhaps I was conflating affordable housing with public housing.  In any case, it's such a prime location in downtown Cleveland for luxury market rate units. I realize its a massive building that needs to be filled, however. I would hate to see a half empty building.

15 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Isn't tax money/subsidy involved with every project here nowadays?  I don't think anyone is opposed to affordable housing downtown, it just seems odd having it in the heart of downtown.  But with such a large, vacant building, I suppose they need to be creative.

 

I disagree. Having that many people living at that intersection will do wonders to activate Euclid from CSU to PS.

I worked on the 7th floor in this building for 17 years.  It was built before there was any air conditioning.  So, the architects tried to have a window office for everyone to let outside air in.  There are two massive interior atriums.  One runs North and South and the other runs East and West.  The atriums start on the 5th or 6th floor and are relatively narrow.

 

Since this is a 21 story building, being on a lower floor is not attractive.  It is very dark especially on a cloudy day and the view is looking across at another office (apartment in the future).  So, I assume that the affordable apartments will be these interior ones on the atriums.

1 hour ago, deanhorn said:

I worked on the 7th floor in this building for 17 years.  It was built before there was any air conditioning.  So, the architects tried to have a window office for everyone to let outside air in.  There are two massive interior atriums.  One runs North and South and the other runs East and West.  The atriums start on the 5th or 6th floor and are relatively narrow.

 

Since this is a 21 story building, being on a lower floor is not attractive.  It is very dark especially on a cloudy day and the view is looking across at another office (apartment in the future).  So, I assume that the affordable apartments will be these interior ones on the atriums.

I was only working there for a couple of years - but on the sixth floor, with a window looking in at the light wells. In the winter time the sun didn't make it anywhere near those bottom windows.

The light wells in question from Google earth. 

County Imagery shows desolation a little bit better lol - click the eagleview link to see 360 of oblique imagery..

 

https://gis.cuyahogacounty.us/html5viewer/?viewer=cegis&layerTheme=&scale=1128.497176&basemap=YWVyaWFscw%3D%3D&center=-9093275.175926978%2C5086508.699906481&layers=1PxIHe2k%2FQXp

Thanks @Mendo and @GISguy for the images.  They really drive home just how massive this building is.  It’s going to be a gargantuan effort to pull this project off.  I hope they are successful.

Interesting to note that the Centennial showed up in the Construction Journal last week. Was this the first time? And, it's shown only as in the "early planning stages." Some projects can sit among those "ready to bid" for many months without any action. So we'll see what happens....

 

2/7/2023
Centennial Project

Renovation
Plans call to redevelop a 1.4 million square foot building into 864 affordable apartments, a 61 boutique hotel rooms, a high end restaurant, office space, retail and event space. As of February 7, 2023, this project is in the early planning stages, and received funding from the U.S. Department of Housing Urban Development.

Conception

Bids by Invitation
$40,000,000 Est. Value

I thought only half of the apartments were going to be "affordable".

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I thought only half of the apartments were going to be "affordable".

51% are required to be affordable for the HUD loan that was received earlier this year:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/clevelands-centennial-project-secures-15-million-hud-loan

3 hours ago, KJP said:

Interesting to note that the Centennial showed up in the Construction Journal last week. Was this the first time? And, it's shown only as in the "early planning stages." Some projects can sit among those "ready to bid" for many months without any action. So we'll see what happens....

 

2/7/2023
Centennial Project

Renovation
Plans call to redevelop a 1.4 million square foot building into 864 affordable apartments, a 61 boutique hotel rooms, a high end restaurant, office space, retail and event space. As of February 7, 2023, this project is in the early planning stages, and received funding from the U.S. Department of Housing Urban Development.

Conception

Bids by Invitation
$40,000,000 Est. Value

@KJP (or other knowledgeable forumers) what’s the total amount of incentives, grants and TMUD money available to this project?  Seems like it’s a potentially record setting amount…

5 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

@KJP (or other knowledgeable forumers) what’s the total amount of incentives, grants and TMUD money available to this project?  Seems like it’s a potentially record setting amount…

 

I'd have to go back through add it all up. But there's $65 million in state historic and TMUD tax credits, plus LIHTC credits, the HUD loan, county loans, a city loan I believe, and possibly more.

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I'd have to go back through add it all up. But there's $65 million in state historic and TMUD tax credits, plus LIHTC credits, the HUD loan, county loans, a city loan I believe, and possibly more.

 

And 100% worth it to bring this building back to life.  1.4 Million sqft of dead space repurposed with people living, working, and doing business in it.  It will quite literally be a city-within-a-city and add a ton of energy to downtown.  

5 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

 

And 100% worth it to bring this building back to life.  1.4 Million sqft of dead space repurposed with people living, working, and doing business in it.  It will quite literally be a city-within-a-city and add a ton of energy to downtown.  

let's just hope this doesn't drag on forever in limbo tieing up all that money. Would love to see the added population to downtown right there 

Here's a chance to learn about construction timelines, potential commercial tenants, and more!

 

 

4-6 pm on a weekday? That seems like a great time to pick if you don't actually want anyone to attend. 

Psh, they can't take too many people on the top secret behind the scenes tour. Right? Riiiiight?

3 hours ago, Ethan said:

4-6 pm on a weekday? That seems like a great time to pick if you don't actually want anyone to attend. 

 

Won't shake me - definitely planning to go

On 3/29/2023 at 12:31 PM, KJP said:

Here's a chance to learn about construction timelines, potential commercial tenants, and more!

 

 

Are any forumers at this meeting?

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/millennia-retools-its-downtown-cleveland-centennial-proj

 

Crain's link to article, reduction in number of affordable apartments but detailed various amenities and construction announced to start late 2023

Edited April 6, 20232 yr by PaxtonMarley

I tend to be a true believer in this project but I must admit it is frustrating that the starting line keeps moving (now the end of the year).  At least it seems they are working hard to get it all together despite all the obstacles.  It really will an incredible "mixed used" building when done. 

Here’s @mjarboe’s Tweet summary of her article

 

Thanks for sharing that article @Boomerang_BrianI’m very interested to hear feedback from UO folk on various aspects of this story 

 

I’m not knowledgeable enough to know all the merits and/or detriments of this restructure - but one thing seems clear - there’s now a better chance, based on the information in the article, that this huge project can go forward. 
 

And if this building is given new life on this scale, it will obviously be a fantastic addition for the city. 

Edited April 6, 20232 yr by CleveFan

Are any forumers at this meeting?

Yeah I went.

Lot of highlights, more of which I’ll post tomorrow (it’s late). But the most important of which is that they had to scale back the affordable housing component from over 800 units to ~410 units because of (1) market conditions, (2) feedback from the financing community, and (3) the fact that over 800 units would have required a low income tax credit of ~$20M, which approximately two banks nationwide would have had an appetite for. Scaling it back brought the size of the low income tax credit down to ~$12M, which broadened the pool of eligible banks / tax credit customers substantially. So all said, their revised tax credit offering to the market is undergoing due diligence in tangent with revised cost estimates of the build out, and they’re hoping to close financing by ~ early Q4.

So I guess that could imply a ground breaking as soon as Q1 next year. For what it’s worth, they’re also doing interior demolitions in the meantime and just chipping away at what they can.


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180K for office space?

 

Perhaps a homecoming for E&Y?

 

Stranger things have happened around here.

I'm not sure if more office space is a well thought out idea. I'm assuming they've done a market study but with a move to more hybrid schedules in office employment I am questioning the feasibility. 

27 minutes ago, PaxtonMarley said:

180K for office space?

 

Perhaps a homecoming for E&Y?

 

Stranger things have happened around here.

I think they are moving to North Point.  I would have to imagine it is a somewhat new long term lease (at least ten years).  It would be great to see them in Centennial.  I remember the days when the easiest place to catch a taxi was in front of the Union Commerce/Huntington Building.  There were always three or more cabs lined up out front at all times of day, even late into the evening, with all the well heeled law firms, accounting firms and companies located in the building.

2 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

 I remember the days when the easiest place to catch a taxi was in front of the Union Commerce/Huntington Building.  There were always three or more cabs lined up out front at all times of day, even late into the evening, with all the well heeled law firms, accounting firms and companies located in the building.

I worked in the then-Union Commerce Building from 1981-83.  Back then Ernst & Whinney (before Young), Squires Sanders & Dempsey, and Jones Day were all in the building.  Huge traffic jam of suits waiting for the elevators (This was even before Casual Fridays were a thing) Down in the arcade was the Guvernors Pub,  a Burrows (who remembers them?), a coffee shop, a Post Office and more.

You know it's funny, we talk about all the progress downtown has made over the last few decades and just looking at the skyline there has been a massive change. But one thing those before times had was a more vibrant street life. There were actual department stores and real office workers. We tend to think of downturn back then as a sort of bleak landscape but unless my memory is playing tricks with me l remember it as more people on the sidewalk, more traffic. 

 

Seems like we have more buildings now but somehow less activity. Does that seem right?

I don't remember the title of this thread being "hazy recollections of Downtown".  Let's get back on topic.

Millennia is one of the big boys, so I'm going to assume they have some good reason for the additional office space.

 

The reduction in affordable housing is obviously disappointing, but clearly they tried, so can't really fault them. 410 units is still huge.

 

I think though, that this will be a good example to bring up to people in the future who criticize a lack of affordable housing being built. It's really hard to build anything that's not market rate. There's a reason the market rate is the market rate. It's because that's the rate at which you can finance and build with an an acceptable rate of return on capital. Millennia has secured every credit and incentive they can possibly get their hands on, and they STILL couldn't get financing for the mix of affordable-rate units they wanted.

This project received TMUD credits based on the previous proposal assuming 860 affordable units, right? And they got the maximum amount of $40M, a huge portion of the funds in that round ($100M awarded). Changing the plans after receiving the award leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially when I thought TMUD was supposed to favor projects that were shovel ready pending TMUD awards.

 

I still hope this project gets off the ground and like the plan overall. I think I'm just a little sad that we've gone from 860 units down to 587, and can't help feeling like we got a bait and switch. I also feel like those first TMUD credits should've gone to another project(s) that were closer to shovel ready like bridgeworks.

This project received TMUD credits based on the previous proposal assuming 860 affordable units, right? And they got the maximum amount of $40M, a huge portion of the funds in that round ($100M awarded). Changing the plans after receiving the award leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially when I thought TMUD was supposed to favor projects that were shovel ready pending TMUD awards.
 
I still hope this project gets off the ground and like the plan overall. I think I'm just a little sad that we've gone from 860 units down to 587, and can't help feeling like we got a bait and switch. I also feel like those first TMUD credits should've gone to another project(s) that were closer to shovel ready like bridgeworks.

It’s not a bait and switch. They legitimately could not secure financing bc the tax credit pool was too small for over 800 units, plus the banking meltdown poured cold water on their hopes. When they initially announced the project they only proposed 300 something affordable units, so shrinking it down to something over 400 is still a win. They tried their best but the financing just isn’t there for over 800.


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