4 minutes ago, dastler said:

This project received TMUD credits based on the previous proposal assuming 860 affordable units, right? And they got the maximum amount of $40M, a huge portion of the funds in that round ($100M awarded). Changing the plans after receiving the award leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially when I thought TMUD was supposed to favor projects that were shovel ready pending TMUD awards.

 

I still hope this project gets off the ground and like the plan overall. I think I'm just a little sad that we've gone from 860 units down to 587, and can't help feeling like we got a bait and switch. I also feel like those first TMUD credits should've gone to another project(s) that were closer to shovel ready like bridgeworks.

 

In fairness to Millennia, they were granted the TMUD in early 2022, right at the beginning of the most dramatic interest rate hike in human history. So I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe their original financing plan blew up unexpectedly.

2 hours ago, ASP1984 said:

It’s not a bait and switch. They legitimately could not secure financing bc the tax credit pool was too small for over 800 units, plus the banking meltdown poured cold water on their hopes. When they initially announced the project they only proposed 300 something affordable units, so shrinking it down to something over 400 is still a win. They tried their best but the financing just isn’t there for over 800.


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True things change, can't blame them for not predicting the future. Glad they can adapt and adjust to keep the project alive. But I think the bigger issue is what Dastler also pointed out above with the "shovel-ready" description which TMUD was suppose to be for. They won the award back in March 2022 and with them saying financing finalization by end of year we're looking at Q1 start so almost a full 2 years between award and start. 

 

The way they pitched TMUD was it was to be used as the final push to get projects financed and started asap which I think mostly has been happening so I won't complain too much. It's just this one seemed like an odd choice to give out such a huge sum for a project that wasn't close to being ready yet.

 

I'm sure it's more nuanced than what we can see.

 

15 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said:

 

True things change, can't blame them for not predicting the future. Glad they can adapt and adjust to keep the project alive. But I think the bigger issue is what Dastler also pointed out above with the "shovel-ready" description which TMUD was suppose to be for. They won the award back in March 2022 and with them saying financing finalization by end of year we're looking at Q1 start so almost a full 2 years between award and start. 

 

The way they pitched TMUD was it was to be used as the final push to get projects financed and started asap which I think mostly has been happening so I won't complain too much. It's just this one seemed like an odd choice to give out such a huge sum for a project that wasn't close to being ready yet.

 

I'm sure it's more nuanced than what we can see.

 

It’s more nuanced in that these “awards” are almost completely based on relationships with the various state financing agencies and syndicating partners. Millennia has deep connections. The plans will change to deliver absolute maximum profit to the developer. 

 

Millennia’s Centennial due this year
By Ken Prendergast / April 28, 2023

 

Although a “groundbreaking” ceremony for the start of one of downtown Cleveland’s largest-ever building renovations may not happen until late summer, you may see work crews going in and out of the former Union Trust Bank, 925 Euclid Ave., even earlier. That’s because an interior demolition permit application was submitted to the city this week to prepare for construction work in converting the 1.4-million-square-foot behemoth into The Centennial, featuring nearly 600 apartments, 170 hotel rooms, plus retail, restaurants and a museum.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/04/28/millennias-centennial-due-this-year/

Very exciting news. I think we should give Millennia a big thumbs up. Sure, they got a lot of financial help but even so, who else was waiting in the wings to tackle this project? Can you imagine the hew and cry if that building had to come down because it was too difficult to repurpose? I don't even want to think about it.

Awesome. 2nd biggest project downtown, and on the second most important intersection downtown. This is gonna be huge.

One thousand or more additional people on Euclid once finished!

 

Huge!

Awesome. 2nd biggest project downtown, and on the second most important intersection downtown. This is gonna be huge.

What's the most important? Down by public square?

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3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

What's the most important? Down by public square?

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Had the same thought! 
 

Perhaps it’s…

It was assuming PS, but can’t argue with Hammy lol.

Time to rename this thread “The Centennial”? 

I would love to see an urban target as part of the retail component of the centennial. However, I wonder if the company may be a bit gun shy currently when it comes to opening new urban target stores. They are closing a number of these small format stores in places across the nation as they are under performing, including in some hip neighborhoods like center city, Philadelphia and uptown Minneapolis.

^ Well that's discouraging. OK, l'm not an expert in the retail game but l got to believe a City Target in downtown Cleveland would still be a financial success simply because there's nothing like it nearby for 20,000 consumers. 

21 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I would love to see an urban target as part of the retail component of the centennial. However, I wonder if the company may be a bit gun shy currently when it comes to opening new urban target stores. They are closing a number of these small format stores in places across the nation as they are under performing, including in some hip neighborhoods like center city, Philadelphia and uptown Minneapolis.

To be fair, they have five locations in downtown Philly. A couple of the others aren’t in super dense urban areas. I would assume we have a little ways to go for downtown to be able to support another target. There’s one a couple miles away that has never seemed to be fully stocked. Here’s hoping this, and the next few projects, add to the density and increasing income to downtown to support more retail. 

48 minutes ago, jjames0408 said:

To be fair, they have five locations in downtown Philly. A couple of the others aren’t in super dense urban areas. I would assume we have a little ways to go for downtown to be able to support another target. There’s one a couple miles away that has never seemed to be fully stocked. Here’s hoping this, and the next few projects, add to the density and increasing income to downtown to support more retail. 

Actually Philly will have 3 downtown Targets, the smallest one is set to close mid-May.  Not so much a density issue as the one set to close is pretty small and has, like most retailers in Philly, a huge shoplifting issue. The smallest footprint will be the Rittenhouse location in a dense area but with shoplifting issues.

 

Lots of retailer are not fully stocked, although it seems to be getting better.  Downtown CLE is still not there yet and now WFH is a factor.  
 

That said, downtown CLE will and should continue to be a desirable place to live so the breaking point is on the horizon despite current challenges.

 

The Centennial’s residential component has been downsized but complemented with the hotel and office space features.

 

a downtown CLE would need to be on the larger size for a Target if and when it comes in.

 

Where in The Centennial would it go in?

Edited April 30, 20232 yr by Oxford19

5 hours ago, Oxford19 said:

Where in The Centennial would it go in?

 

There's a retail arcade in the basement/gound level from Chester and a retail space on the first floor along East 9th's side walk. Just guessing, but this could host a two-story Target with a food/beverage service on the first floor and the store/cashiers in the ground floor. That could help discourage shoplifting. 

 

Ground floor:

 

 

First floor: 

 

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 

There's a retail arcade in the basement/gound level from Chester and a retail space on the first floor along East 9th's side walk. Just guessing, but this could host a two-story Target with a food/beverage service on the first floor and the store/cashiers in the ground floor. That could help discourage shoplifting. 

 

Ground floor:

 

 

First floor: 

 

This would be amazing. It’s a big ask to soak up all the empty storefronts, entrances, etc. this building has on 9th and Chester. A City Target could do it no sweat. How much in the way of groceries do they carry, though. Can’t  imagine Heinens would be happy to have another grocery store that close.

This would be amazing. It’s a big ask to soak up all the empty storefronts, entrances, etc. this building has on 9th and Chester. A City Target could do it no sweat. How much in the way of groceries do they carry, though. Can’t  imagine Heinens would be happy to have another grocery store that close.

Can Cleveland support two targets so close to each other? It's not like Steelyard is far away.

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11 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Can Cleveland support two targets so close to each other? It's not like Steelyard is far away.

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FWIW bus service from downtown to target/steelyard is pretty atrocious, I doubt that a downtown target would take away from the shoppers in SY, two different audiences.

Can you imagine a full size City Target fronting 9th and Euclid filling those windows with actual stuff to buy?

 

Man...l can dream can't l?

I was suggesting above a small format urban Target.  I cannot see a full size happening.  And I am still wondering if Target decision makers might be putting certain expansion plans on hold right now (not that I know anything-just speculation given the retail economy and the fact that they are closing a number of unperforming small format stores).

Clevescene has a bunch of photos of the interior: https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/photos-a-tour-of-the-near-vacant-union-trust-building-before-renovation-starts-this-fall/Slideshow/42034809/42034831

 

Here's a few:

 

 

 

Rumors about Millennia's financial troubles were true. Crain's has the story.

8 minutes ago, KJP said:

Rumors about Millennia's financial troubles were true. Crain's has the story.

Urgh. Key points from the article;

 

Disposing of 30-odd properties in the south

Refocus on the midwest

Downtown Cleveland properties and dining/ hospitality doing well

Still committed to the Centennial, but ‘dual-tracking’ it with courthouse proposal first and prior plan as a backup.
If prior plan goes ahead, timeline likely to be pushed out (again!)

 

 

 

 

Rumors about Millennia's financial troubles were true. Crain's has the story.

Honestly I worked for them when they announced the Centennial and I was shocked at the ambition of the project based on what I saw and heard in the office.

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Not sure if this has any significance at all 

Is there a branch in there or just an ATM?

^ Both. That branch closing notice has been up for at least a month. The ATM got boarded up a couple of days ago. 

Sounds like Frank didn't win the courthouse sweepstakes. I didn't think he or Bedrock would. 

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

Sounds like Frank didn't win the courthouse sweepstakes. I didn't think he or Bedrock would. 

I think the county wants a new building rather than a renovated building.

13 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I think the county wants a new building rather than a renovated building.

 

Redirecting to the county courthouse thread

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Sounds like Frank didn't win the courthouse sweepstakes. I didn't think he or Bedrock would. 

Frank is gonna have to sell the building for Centennial to happen. The courthouse proposal was a last ditch effort. 

with luck that might turn out great in the long run because the original plan for private mixed use like apts/hotel/resto/city target, etc. would be better than turning it into gov offices. its a tough one, but maybe they can partner up with others to pull it off?

On 12/8/2023 at 7:45 PM, freefourur said:

I think the county wants a new building rather than a renovated building.

I think that it’s more the renovation proposals aren’t workable for a courthouse needs of the next 30-40-50 years. I don’t think the TurnDev one is either. But that’s just my opinion. 

On 12/8/2023 at 7:28 PM, roman totale XVII said:

^ Both. That branch closing notice has been up for at least a month. The ATM got boarded up a couple of days ago. 

 

I actually noticed last week that the Huntington branch in 200 Public Square had it's upstairs part of the branch open.  Only the ground floor branch was previously in use, the upstairs had been dark for the past couple of years.  I figured them opening was an indication that business was good!!  But it must have been the people from the other branch moving over.

 

Either way, it's nice to see that part of the office in use again!!

On 12/8/2023 at 7:45 PM, freefourur said:

I think the county wants a new building rather than a renovated building.

Probably true, and it seems like this would be a tough conversion to modern office standards. Not to mention lack of onsite parking, which I'm sure the county wants. Although I have no idea if some of the lower portions of the building could be converted to a parking garage?

On 4/6/2023 at 12:56 PM, LlamaLawyer said:

 

In fairness to Millennia, they were granted the TMUD in early 2022, right at the beginning of the most dramatic interest rate hike in human history. So I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe their original financing plan blew up unexpectedly.

 

yeah fed rates going from zero to five was a rough shock for developers, but they similarly went from eight to three in 1990-91, so keep hope alive. also they were like eight in the 70s-80s, so it is still not really that high historically — and i dont think at malaise levels for developments, its just tougher.

I've heard that Centennial was a longshot from the beginning.  If Frank couldn't get this to pencil out with rock bottom rates, TMUD, historic tax credits, and LIHTC, how will it get done now?  Millennia got too big too fast and the bills are coming due. They're selling portfolios and playing hard ball with former employees they owe money to.  I sure hope I am proved wrong!

4 hours ago, RE Developer In Training said:

I've heard that Centennial was a longshot from the beginning.  If Frank couldn't get this to pencil out with rock bottom rates, TMUD, historic tax credits, and LIHTC, how will it get done now?  Millennia got too big too fast and the bills are coming due. They're selling portfolios and playing hard ball with former employees they owe money to.  I sure hope I am proved wrong!

I don’t think you will be.

On 12/13/2023 at 10:18 AM, RE Developer In Training said:

I've heard that Centennial was a longshot from the beginning.  If Frank couldn't get this to pencil out with rock bottom rates, TMUD, historic tax credits, and LIHTC, how will it get done now?  Millennia got too big too fast and the bills are coming due. They're selling portfolios and playing hard ball with former employees they owe money to.  I sure hope I am proved wrong!

I'm hoping they can at least renovate and open the grand lobby - such an important tourist attraction that compliments Heinens across the street as well as the two arcades down the street. What a shame!

9 hours ago, shack said:

I'm hoping they can at least renovate and open the grand lobby - such an important tourist attraction that compliments Heinens across the street as well as the two arcades down the street. What a shame!

 

 

It's probably more pain than it's worth with security and whatnot but the basement arcade area was nice - barber, jeweler, little convenience store and other storefronts and you could peek into the grand lobby (it was locked w/gates). Kind of a shame they shut off all building access once covid hit. 

 

The Centennial is our white whale. While we're focusing on all these new projects downtown this building is sitting there waiting for a hero. 

 

It's massive. It's on the most important intersection downtown. And right now its like a black hole capable of sucking in all the buildings around it. That can't be allowed to happen.

 

Too finally figure out a way to make it not just productive but the asset it should be will take real leadership and cooperation from the community. This building is too important to remain as is until it is torn down. 

Since the building is so massive, could they renovate just a portion like the lower levels and do the rest later as demand warrants and funding becomes available?

 

1 hour ago, coneflower said:

Since the building is so massive, could they renovate just a portion like the lower levels and do the rest later as demand warrants and funding becomes available?

 

 

They could, but Millennia reps told me they want to do the whole thing all at once.

2 hours ago, coneflower said:

Since the building is so massive, could they renovate just a portion like the lower levels and do the rest later as demand warrants and funding becomes available?

 

I don’t know if the plethora of tax credit grantors that have been awarded to this building would accommodate a building schedule like that. 

Is the dirigible platform still there?  Would it handle one or more helicopters?

8 hours ago, marty15 said:

I don’t know if the plethora of tax credit grantors that have been awarded to this building would accommodate a building schedule like that. 

Is the developer at risk of losing some of the tax credits if they don't get started soon?

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Is the developer at risk of losing some of the tax credits if they don't get started soon?

I suppose that’s also a possibility/probability.

12 hours ago, coneflower said:

Since the building is so massive, could they renovate just a portion like the lower levels and do the rest later as demand warrants and funding becomes available?

 

I worked for a company that tried to do that to a 20-story semi-finished building in Buenos Aires - turn it into a hospital one specialty/floor at a time. The operating side of it worked financially, but the marshalling and startup costs to restart construction every year or two killed us.  There would probably be the same problem for Millennia.

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Is the developer at risk of losing some of the tax credits if they don't get started soon?

 

Since they've done *some* interior demolition work (I don't know how much), perhaps they can argue that they have started work?