10 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Is the developer at risk of losing some of the tax credits if they don't get started soon?

I hope so. At this point they wasted money that could've went to projects like Bridgeworks or something else. 

On 12/23/2023 at 12:57 PM, KJP said:

 

Since they've done *some* interior demolition work (I don't know how much), perhaps they can argue that they have started work?

 

Lol saw a sink getting dolly-ed out on Friday. Huzzah, "demo work" hah.

On 12/23/2023 at 12:32 PM, Dougal said:

I worked for a company that tried to do that to a 20-story semi-finished building in Buenos Aires - turn it into a hospital one specialty/floor at a time. The operating side of it worked financially, but the marshalling and startup costs to restart construction every year or two killed us.  There would probably be the same problem for Millennia.

It seems like this whale is just too big, which suggests that the best bet is to break it up so that the next time it's redeveloped it doesn't have to be done all at once. 
Could they vertically segment it and reconfigure it into multiple "buildings" to be redeveloped in sequence?

On 12/27/2023 at 10:30 AM, Foraker said:

It seems like this whale is just too big, which suggests that the best bet is to break it up so that the next time it's redeveloped it doesn't have to be done all at once. 

Seems like they need to get it figured out before the next big whale opens up at 101 W Prospect at the end of next year. 

HUD cuts Millennia Cos. from new U.S. deals for five years. Is This good or bad for the Centennial. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/millennia-cos-cleveland-hit-5-year-hud-sanction

4 minutes ago, simplythis said:

HUD cuts Millennia Cos. from new U.S. deals for five years. Is This good or bad for the Centennial. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/millennia-cos-cleveland-hit-5-year-hud-sanction

They’re in a lot of trouble. Gonna need to start divesting some of that portfolio.

I've heard lots of rumors about Frank Sinito and Millennia, including him having to sell off personal items (yacht, cars, etc).

11 minutes ago, KJP said:

I've heard lots of rumors about Frank Sinito and Millennia, including him having to sell off personal items (yacht, cars, etc).

No vending machines? Jkkk

This deal is 100% never happening as long as Millennia still owns the building. Their financing was contingent on a HUD loan for construction. This building will sit vacant until the lender takes back the building and sells it for pennies on the dollar. 

 

 

Agreed. Sinito paid too much for the building. It's not a bad thing for a lender to take it back and sell it for cheap. That's what got the 515 Euclid garage into a developer's hands at a price that allowed the air-rights apartment tower to be constructed. 515 Euclid garage was built in 2005 for $25 million and the owner went bankrupt after the 2008-09 great recession. At auction, the garage was sold in 2011 for $8 million to Harbor Group. Having to finance $8 million rather than $25 million is what made the high-rise possible. Harbor Group was able to offer to Stark a better air rights deal than what was previously not possible. In 2016, Stark and Harbor Group entered into a joint venture to build The Beacon. The rest is history.

Whatever anyone thinks about Millenia's finance's it's not good that the building's re-purposing goes back to square one. And the longer it remains vacant to harder it will be to bring it back to life. The very thing that makes it so beautiful (the L shaped lobby) makes it incredibly difficult to re-purpose. 

 

If Millenia can't pull it off l don't know who will. Because of its size and location it's an important part of the fabric of downtown. Unfortunately with the focus on the river, the lakefront and a new stadium l'm afraid that city leaders and developers won't be able to give the building the necessary attention it needs to find the answer. Meanwhile the clock is ticking its way to demolition.

If the lender does take back the building, what happens to the TMUD credit?

14 hours ago, simplythis said:

HUD cuts Millennia Cos. from new U.S. deals for five years. Is This good or bad for the Centennial. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/millennia-cos-cleveland-hit-5-year-hud-sanction

I don’t think “bad” quite does it justice lol. If Millennia ceases to exist as a result of this I wouldn’t be shocked. The silver lining is that construction never really started. Because if this was an active construction site halfway toward Millennia’s vision, that could be an utter disaster. At least the building isn’t any less useable than before. So some other buyer can theoretically do what they want with it…

 

Also— Who’da thunk Tom Sinito’s son would get crosswise with the feds?

(Sorry, terrible joke but I had to do it.)

 

"Because of its size and location it's an important part of the fabric of downtown. Unfortunately with the focus on the river, the lakefront and a new stadium l'm afraid that city leaders and developers won't be able to give the building the necessary attention it needs to find the answer. Meanwhile the clock is ticking its way to demolition."  I absolutely agree!  

9th & Euclid = Main & Main.  

So this is a massively important site for downtown.

41 minutes ago, sky said:

9th & Euclid = Main & Main.  

So this is a massively important site for downtown.

Ya I've been so excited for this project to finally get moving. Especially with City Club close to finishing and the Ohio Savings Plaza next door likely converting to residential as well. 

 

That'd be an additional 950 to nearly 1300 units(if a new developer goes back up to that 700-800 units number) right in the middle of downtown, and probably 2000+ residents. 

 

Maybe one day...

I heard that there is more coming down the pipeline for Millennia and it's not good.

That TMUD award was the maximum, right? $40mm.  Think what other projects could have been done with that money.

1 hour ago, urb-a-saurus said:

That TMUD award was the maximum, right? $40mm.  Think what other projects could have been done with that money.

Basically Downtown gets almost nothing out of TMUD because the following year Erieview Tower got a large TMUD and we all know that Kassouff is incapable of pulling it off. Just think we could have gotten Bridgewoks Iteration2 started.  But then I realize that this is Cleveland and basically almost all projects end up this way.

 

On 3/23/2024 at 6:25 PM, simplythis said:

 But then I realize that this is Cleveland and basically almost all projects end up this way.

 

Let’s see: the Lumen, the Beacon, SW, Circle Square, City Club apartments, the Hilton tower, INTRO - these are just the high rise projects that I can think of that didn’t “end up this way.”  That doesn’t even include the dozens of rehabs and low rise new builds.
 

I get tired of posts like this that take the “woe is us” attitude. There are projects in cities all across the US that don’t pan out. This setback with the Centennial doesn’t mean it won’t get done, it just means this wasn’t the right developer to get it done. 

15 hours ago, urb-a-saurus said:

That TMUD award was the maximum, right? $40mm.  Think what other projects could have been done with that money.

 

They still can. First, the project isn't dead. If it does fail to move forward, any unused TMUD awards can be re-awarded to other projects either in whole or in pieces. A TMUD winner doesn't get the credits until after the project is completed.

 

13 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

Let’s see: the Lumen, the Beacon, SW, Circle Square, City Club apartments, the Hilton tower, INTRO - these are just the high rise projects that I can think of that didn’t “end up this way.”  That doesn’t even include the dozens of rehabs and low rise new builds.
 

I get tired of posts like this that take on the “woe is us” attitude. There are projects in cities all across the US that don’t pan out. This setback with the Centennial doesn’t mean it won’t get done, it just means this wasn’t the right developer to get it done. 

 

Projects everywhere don't survive to construction. We just never hear about most of them. Larger developers have multiple projects in the works at a given time, knowing that maybe one of them will see construction. Anything worth doing is difficult to accomplish. 

On 3/22/2024 at 9:57 PM, marty15 said:

They’re in a lot of trouble. Gonna need to start divesting some of that portfolio.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2024/03/millennia-changes-course-is-selling-most-of-its-hud-properties.html

So you're saying there's a chance.

Too early to say what impact, if any, this might have on the Centennial project

 

 

Too bad. The development of 925 Euclid could be a massive game-changer for downtown.  I hope there is an eventual good outcome.

Does anyone know when the 40m TMUD credits expire. If he sells the 925 Centennial do all of the credits transfer over?

Maybe this project is still alive.

 

State Brownfield grants awarded.

 

Cleveland’s Centennial, Rockefeller Building, Erieview Tower and Rhodes Tower were all recipients in the latest round of state-issued brownfield remediation funding.

Funds for just these four projects add up to an impressive $29 million and Cuyahoga County projects totaled more than $40 million out of $86 million in grants awarded. 

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/ohio-awards-86-million-new-brownfield-funds

"The 1.36 million-square-foot complex Union Trust Building, and former Huntington Bank location, now Centennial at East Ninth Street and Euclid Avenue, is set to receive $10 million for asbestos removal, lead-based paint remediation and soil gas mitigation.

 

Those funds come on top of other state monies $25 million in state preservation tax credits and $40 million in the first round of Transformational Mixed-Use Development Program in 2022."

Aw, boo. I was looking forward to writing about his. Ah, what the heck. I'll write about it anyways.

2 hours ago, simplythis said:

Maybe this project is still alive.

 

State Brownfield grants awarded.

 

Cleveland’s Centennial, Rockefeller Building, Erieview Tower and Rhodes Tower were all recipients in the latest round of state-issued brownfield remediation funding.

Funds for just these four projects add up to an impressive $29 million and Cuyahoga County projects totaled more than $40 million out of $86 million in grants awarded. 

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/ohio-awards-86-million-new-brownfield-funds

 

Round up the usual suspects and give them some more money.  See if anything happens this time.

 

State targets $10 million at project to revitalize historic Cleveland landmark

COLUMBUS – A $10 million grant to help pay for environmental cleanup at a Cleveland landmark was part of more than $86 million that Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine said Wednesday will be targeted at brownfields.

The money available through the Ohio Brownfield Remediation Program will be used toward asbestos removal, lead-based paint remediation, and soil gas mitigation at the historic Centennial Building in downtown Cleveland, adding to the millions in public support the redevelopment project already has received.

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2024/12/state-targets-10-million-at-project-to-revitalize-historic-cleveland-landmark.html

23 minutes ago, willyboy said:

 

State targets $10 million at project to revitalize historic Cleveland landmark

COLUMBUS – A $10 million grant to help pay for environmental cleanup at a Cleveland landmark was part of more than $86 million that Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine said Wednesday will be targeted at brownfields.

The money available through the Ohio Brownfield Remediation Program will be used toward asbestos removal, lead-based paint remediation, and soil gas mitigation at the historic Centennial Building in downtown Cleveland, adding to the millions in public support the redevelopment project already has received.

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2024/12/state-targets-10-million-at-project-to-revitalize-historic-cleveland-landmark.html

Hopefully this jumpstarts the redevelopment there bro. 

 

Centennial still alive, among Ohio Brownfield winners
By Ken Prendergast / December 4, 2024

 

Without any visible activity in nearly two years, rumors circulated throughout Cleveland’s development community that the roughly $500 million Centennial redevelopment, 925 Euclid Ave. in Downtown Cleveland was dead. Similar rumors circulated about the fate of the Rockefeller Building, 614 W. Superior Ave., and renovations to Rhodes Tower, 2124 Chester Ave., one of the projects in Cleveland State University quieted development master plan.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/12/04/centennial-still-alive-among-ohio-brownfield-winners/

26 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Centennial still alive, among Ohio Brownfield winners
By Ken Prendergast / December 4, 2024

 

Without any visible activity in nearly two years, rumors circulated throughout Cleveland’s development community that the roughly $500 million Centennial redevelopment, 925 Euclid Ave. in Downtown Cleveland was dead. Similar rumors circulated about the fate of the Rockefeller Building, 614 W. Superior Ave., and renovations to Rhodes Tower, 2124 Chester Ave., one of the projects in Cleveland State University quieted development master plan.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/12/04/centennial-still-alive-among-ohio-brownfield-winners/

We hope Millennia surfaces to give us an update of their plans and timelines, especially given all of the public funds earmarked to date but parked on the sidelines for them.

41 minutes ago, cadmen said:

I would be suprised if Millennia is able to get this project going even with all the public aid. This is a particularly difficult building due to its size and that amazing lobby. With enough money anything can be done but finding a profitable use for the lobby is very difficult. That's why l was hoping the building was picked for the courthouse. That lobby would make for an incredible public space as the entrance to the courts. What other use is there for it? I can't think of one and apparently a developer can't either. Even with this version of public dollars added l am concerned it will take a company with deep pockets and expertise in repurposing. I don't that company is Millennia especially given their recent (current?) problems.

 

I'm afraid while we wait and hope for a workable plan this important building at an iconic location will deteriorate beyond repair. The last thing we want is a massive hole at 9th and Euclid. 

Seems like this building might be big enough for both a courthouse and more apartments. 

 

But here's hoping Millennia can at least get started -- start by removing the lead and asbestos.  At least that way if they end up throwing up their hands and walking away then some other entity can start with a cleaner slate.

It’s 1.4 million sqft; I’d assume a developer could activate this building in one section, make money, then move onto the next section once further financing is in place if the entire 1.4 million couldn’t be repurposed all at the same time.

A video of the inside to show what we're dealing with.

 

The 925 Euclid Building: Drone Presentation by Aerial Agents

Edited December 7, 2024Dec 7 by Rustbelter

Folks, we have a place to discuss and speculate about projects that are in limbo, or maybe in jeopardy of demolition (not the case here, at least not for quite some time) or planned uses that are a ways off from materializing. If it turns out we have to move some posts back into this thread because the 925 Euclid lobby is going to be repurposed into a Target/Bloomingdales/amusement park, great - that means some positive movement for the building.

Also, a friendly reminder to refrain from giving the Admins and Mods grief over a request to keep a post on topic. This forum has been around for over two decades because we generally run a tight ship. Let's keep this thread for actual activity that's directly related to the building's redevelopment.

 

 

Any updates on this project? Such a critical piece to downtown

As long as Sinito owns the property, there won't be any updates. A new developer needs to step in.

22 minutes ago, zbaris87 said:

As long as Sinito owns the property, there won't be any updates. A new developer needs to step in.

I totally agree with this sentiment.  The problem is developers who are able to take on such a huge and potentially problematic project, even with public subsidies, are few and far between. Even those with the knowledge and resources might just be thinking why bother-we can find something to develop with a lot less headaches. I am fearful that this building is going to sit empty for years to come.  I hope I am wrong.

This project will need more help than Sinito received, even including the State's credits.  This is true for any developer.  The costs are too high and the potential rents too low for such a massively big building.  This is on the corner of "Main & Main", so I'm hoping for the best.

Apparently this was fairly high in consideration for the new Courthouse but perhaps now with the Federal Building drama that may change? not sure. 

Sinito overpaid for this property. Add to that he's hamstrung by not being able to do any new business with the federal government for five years (until 2029). So 925 Euclid could really benefit from the closure of the AJC Federal Building and its redistribution of tenants. But under Sinito's ownership, it cannot.

Just now, KJP said:

Sinito overpaid for this property. Add to that he's hamstrung by not being able to do any new business with the federal government for five years (until 2029). So 925 Euclid could really benefit from the closure of the AJC Federal Building and its redistribution of tenants. But under Sinito's ownership, it cannot.

If this was Detroit, I am sure Dan Gilbert/Bedrock would step in, especially with the many State/Fed tax credits/grants sitting on the table gathering dust.  We love what Gilbert is doing for his second home but we still daydream if only he could do even more for Cleveland as he has done for our big cousin Detroit.

It's kind of a shame that we have to rely on an out-of-towner like Dan Gilbert to get any major development done in Cleveland.

4 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

It's kind of a shame that we have to rely on an out-of-towner like Dan Gilbert to get any major development done in Cleveland.

Very few people in this country have pockets and resources as deep as Dan Gilbert. If we are being honest Detroit lucked out with him, it's rare. 

Edited April 3Apr 3 by MyPhoneDead
Grammatical Error that bothered me.

27 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Very little people in this country have pockets and resources as deep as Dan Gilbert. If we are being honest Detroit lucked out with him, it's rare. 

Very few people, indeed. 

Cleveland did have several local individuals with deep pockets - Richard Jacobs, Bart Wolstein, Albert Ratner, Sam Miller, Al Lerner, Peter Lewis, etc. Sadly, they are all gone now.

9 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Cleveland did have several local individuals with deep pockets - Richard Jacobs, Bart Wolstein, Albert Ratner, Sam Miller, Al Lerner, Peter Lewis, etc. Sadly, they are all gone now.

Cities seem to benefit the most when the family becomes involved and stay in the city (Lindners come to mind) I’m not sure that’s happened with these families. 

3 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Cleveland did have several local individuals with deep pockets - Richard Jacobs, Bart Wolstein, Albert Ratner, Sam Miller, Al Lerner, Peter Lewis, etc. Sadly, they are all gone now.

 

There are new ones with deep pockets but most of them don't care for the spotlight -- Ruttenberg, Asher, Leonhardt, Ponsky, Fishman, Weiss, Goldberg, Beckmann, Trebilcock to name a few. And yes the Ratners are still out there.