It's nice to see these grand bank lobbies being repurposed after sitting vacant for so long.  It's sad that Cleveland is no longer the banking/financial mecca it once was resulting in these spaces being abandoned.

I feel good about this project being in Millenia's hands. They have done such a fantastic job downtown so far. Their quality has been top-notch, and I really appreciate how bullish they have been - not least by moving their HQ in from the suburbs. Perhaps others, -couch- K&D -cough-  could learn a lesson or two from them?

to me it is just  those two rooms  that have charm and I guess those are great if you think spaces like Marble Room are the wave of the future  - the building just has so much square footage that is generic -- those units that would look onto the light wells....I just dont think they make for great spaces.    hopefully I am wrong but I spent 50 hours in there and came away thinking the emperor had no clothes.

1 hour ago, misterjoshr said:

to me it is just  those two rooms  that have charm and I guess those are great if you think spaces like Marble Room are the wave of the future  - the building just has so much square footage that is generic -- those units that would look onto the light wells....I just dont think they make for great spaces.    hopefully I am wrong but I spent 50 hours in there and came away thinking the emperor had no clothes.

I assume you guys spent that much time there looking into being a potential partner? If so, I urge you guys to stick to what you’ve been doing. We need someone to keep filling in our neighborhood commercial strips with quality product! Have you guys ever looked into the Detroit Ave corridor? Further west towards the Lakewood border? There is a former light warehouse at the northeast corner of w110 and Detroit. I see a for sale sign out front. Always thought this would be such a good spot for apartments/condos. There are a lot of rental properties in the neighborhood, but everything stays pretty full and is quite a popular area. I never have any problems leasing my units with relatively updated finishes. Something like the Tappan would do great!

 

mods, I don’t know how to quote someone in one thread and post to another, so please feel free to move

@KJP, was just reading your article from March 16:

 

Quote

Both The Centennial and nuCLEus were considered likely candidates for the Transformational Mixed Use Development (TMUD) tax credit legislation inching its way through the Ohio General Assembly over the past few years. That legislation could be forwarded to Gov. Mike DeWine for his signature as early as next week.

 

So, I'm assuming that never happened. Any word on the future of this bill since the pandemic hit? State budget cuts now coming, doesn't make me feel great about it... apologies if this has already been discussed on another thread.

4 hours ago, misterjoshr said:

to me it is just  those two rooms  that have charm and I guess those are great if you think spaces like Marble Room are the wave of the future  - the building just has so much square footage that is generic -- those units that would look onto the light wells....I just dont think they make for great spaces.    hopefully I am wrong but I spent 50 hours in there and came away thinking the emperor had no clothes.

 

I had a friend who lived in the Nat City building (above Marble Room, same building as the Holiday Inn Express, but the apartment/hotel piece wasn't owned by Sinito, it was Maron I believe) and the apartment was oddly shaped and nearly windowless. Bedroom and bathroom were windowless, one window in the living room looked out into the light well. I thought it was kind of cool because they had a crane working on the Garfield Building at the time and I would watch it, but I could see how you might think that. People will pay for it though - or at least they would have 2 months ago.

Edited May 4, 20205 yr by mu2010

16 minutes ago, mu2010 said:

@KJP, was just reading your article from March 16:

 

 

So, I'm assuming that never happened. Any word on the future of this bill since the pandemic hit? State budget cuts now coming, doesn't make me feel great about it... apologies if this has already been discussed on another thread.

 

Status of  the TMUD legislation was addressed most recently here:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/04/coronavirus-crisis-casualties-in.html?m=1

6 minutes ago, KJP said:

Status of  the TMUD legislation was addressed most recently here:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/04/coronavirus-crisis-casualties-in.html?m=1

 

Bummer but as expected. Hopefully once we start moving into economic recovery mode, there will be $ allocated for good urban projects, either through this credit or some other means.

14 hours ago, YO to the CLE said:

we just looked at the historic piece as a consultant years ago.   I left being pretty non-plussed.   like, the building should be preserved, don't get me wrong -- I just didn't leave thinking it was a natural conversion or as appealing as others have suggested

 

----
I assume you guys spent that much time there looking into being a potential partner? If so, I urge you guys to stick to what you’ve been doing. We need someone to keep filling in our neighborhood commercial strips with quality product! Have you guys ever looked into the Detroit Ave corridor? Further west towards the Lakewood border? There is a former light warehouse at the northeast corner of w110 and Detroit. I see a for sale sign out front. Always thought this would be such a good spot for apartments/condos. There are a lot of rental properties in the neighborhood, but everything stays pretty full and is quite a popular area. I never have any problems leasing my units with relatively updated finishes. Something like the Tappan would do great!

 

mods, I don’t know how to quote someone in one thread and post to another, so please feel free to move

 

 

13 minutes ago, cle_guy90 said:

Is Centennial still on the table?

 

I have my doubts. Millennia paid $40+ million or four times more for the property than the next two competing offers that I know of. The development teams submitting those lower offers said they couldn't make the project's numbers work at a purchase price of $14 million or higher. The best thing for this property might be for it go into foreclosure and sold at a more reasonable price, assuming that the historic tax credits awarded to the property aren't lost.

So without the TMUD Centennial isn't going anywhere. Covid-19 has killed the TMUD legislation when it appeared to be

wrapping up it's cycle and possibly Nucleus and Centennial or both could have been awarded.

Where do you see TMUD as as far as down the road?

A lot will depend on the state's budget situation and revenue estimates.

On 5/1/2020 at 5:10 PM, misterjoshr said:

I spent a decent amount of time in these spaces.  I found them grand but sort of cold, or almost impossible to re-use in a way that both makes economic  sense and feels warm.   I hope I am wrong but I think the idea these are great spaces is a very overrated notion.  Just my two cents. I hope the redevelopment turns out great and I am dead wrong

As a random example, I know the Denver airport is much maligned, but I think the canvas roof style really warms it up, much more than other airports. Wonder if it's possible to add soft textures and things to break up the height in this building.

On 8/21/2020 at 11:04 AM, KJP said:

 

 

I have my doubts. Millennia paid $40+ million or four times more for the property than the next two competing offers that I know of. The development teams submitting those lower offers said they couldn't make the project's numbers work at a purchase price of $14 million or higher. The best thing for this property might be for it go into foreclosure and sold at a more reasonable price, assuming that the historic tax credits awarded to the property aren't lost.

So another example of previous tenants being kicked out of an almost vacant building for a pie in the sky project, resulting in complete vacancy of said building. Some of these developers are complete jokes. Don't even get me started on Tower City. 

11 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

So another example of previous tenants being kicked out of an almost vacant building for a pie in the sky project, resulting in complete vacancy of said building. Some of these developers are complete jokes. Don't even get me started on Tower City. 

The previous owner was Optima - you know, that front company that was used to launder the Ukrainian oligarch Kolomoisky‘s stolen money. The company that was just raided by the FBI. Even with the recent setbacks, Millennia is still an improvement over the previous owner. 

1 hour ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

So another example of previous tenants being kicked out of an almost vacant building for a pie in the sky project, resulting in complete vacancy of said building. Some of these developers are complete jokes. Don't even get me started on Tower City. 

Millennia has already proven itself throughout downtown.

There was also another owner in between Optima and Millennia.

Interesting approach but would require getting an extension of the catalytic tax credit...

 

September 06, 2020 04:00 AM

UPDATED 4 HOURS AGO

Millennia shifts focus at the Centennial, turning to workforce housing at 925 Euclid Ave.

MICHELLE JARBOE 

 

The Millennia Cos. has jettisoned plans for a hotel, high-end apartments and scads of office space at the historic Union Trust Building in downtown Cleveland, where the developer's new vision calls for filling most of the 1.36 million-square-foot property with workforce housing.

 

....During a recent interview, CEO Frank Sinito confirmed that Millennia expects to install more than 860 apartments on 16 floors of the 21-story building. Those units, with rent caps, would be aimed at hospitality workers, teachers, public employees and families that, today, are earning less than $55,000 a year.

 

The balance of the $450 million project would include event, dining and museum space; 95,000 square feet of offices; and 20,000 square feet of retail. Construction might start as soon as spring of next year and will occur in phases, with the first apartments opening by mid-2023.

 

....The first wave of construction would involve a full historic restoration of the building, with 480 apartments on floors four through 13 and preparation of the commercial spaces. That work could be complete three years from now.

 

The second phase of residential work, to carve out 388 apartments on floors 14 through 20, is likely to start in 2024, Mignogna said.

 

MORE 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/millennia-shifts-focus-centennial-turning-workforce-housing-925-euclid-ave

As I sort of said above, the upper floors actually don't lay out well for apartments.   No charm.   Little natural light on the side that faces the light well.   That it would become workforce housing/LIHTC housing makes sense, frankly, because to turn those into market rate units at the scale needed would be incredibly difficult.   If they could drive the rents down, it has a fighting chance of working.   We see so many pictures of that first floor and the old bank lobby/mezzanine but that represents such a small portion of the building that is otherwise charmless(subjective, I know).    I hope it does get preserved and this project is wildly successful but to me it has more embedded challenges then even your typical "impossible" historic rehab fwiw.

Interesting repositioning but makes sense. Especially given the two phase approach, by the time they are ready for phase 2 perhaps the current environment will be such that market rate, a hotel component, or perhaps even condos would make sense again. However if the workforce housing demand is still high, then they can proceed with the current plan. The idea of WRHS having a presence downtown is also very cool. 
 

One thing is for sure... Millennia's design of this project is nothing short of perfect while  respecting the character and history of the building. Those renderings are absolutely drop dead gorgeous. 

Downtown needs some lower end apts, so I am happy to see it.  And 860 units- that's a lot!

^ Agreed. I have been a longtime advocate for more affordable housing. A few units here and there won't get the market to where it needs to be. This will be a significant addition.

 

Affordable housing for the working class will only enable more services for those in the market-rate housing and will stimulate more growth and development.

 

I do hope however, that the grandeur of the lobby can be restored, isolated and maintained for future generations to marvel and treasure.

 

Edited September 6, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

^ exactly. that is a lot of units. this is exactly what downtown needs, another place with a lot of affordable apts. especially as josh sez its not really very desirable apt spaces. so this is very much a big deal to pull off something like this. it will put a lot of feet on the street downtown.

It should end up being a great mix of incomes no?  I imagine the apartments facing out at Euclid and 9th would fetch high dollar.  

yeah hopefully. and you can always punch a hole in the floor and connect two of them to make a few top end view apts bigger and more appealing. or something.

8 hours ago, mrclifton88 said:

 The idea of WSHS having a presence downtown is also very cool. 

 

 Those renderings are absolutely drop dead gorgeous. 

I don’t have a Crain’s subscription. What is WSHS? Also, it would be appreciated if someone could kindly post the renderings. 
 

 

WRHS is the Western Reserve Historical Society - that's probably what they meant

12 hours ago, KJP said:

MORE 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/millennia-shifts-focus-centennial-turning-workforce-housing-925-euclid-ave

Other good news in this article. Sinito quoted saying both Marble Room and Il Venetian will reopen. He says they are actually doing fine in rent collection and hospitality is only a small part of their business. 

 

^ AFAIK that’s how most of the apartment building downtown work. At least those done with tax credits. A certain %age are for people who earn X% of the average. 

37 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ AFAIK that’s how most of the apartment building downtown work. At least those done with tax credits. A certain %age are for people who earn X% of the average. 

it's usually, like, one floor or one stack. it's not that many.

13 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Other good news in this article. Sinito quoted saying both Marble Room and Il Venetian will reopen. He says they are actually doing fine in rent collection and hospitality is only a small part of their business. 

 

Best news I’ve heard all week.

This is such great news, and I hope this moves forward in this iteration. As much as we all know the cost of living in Cleveland is affordable compared to the coasts, keep in mind that wages are also lower here. The affordable housing crisis is just as acute here as it is in places like NYC and Seattle, even if it's not as widespread. One of the side effects of the booming housing market we have had lately is a massive decline in single family rental properties. Owners who were underwater and couldn't sell before, and so were forced to rent their properties out, are now finally able to sell, and the vast majority of those houses (at least in the suburbs) are becoming owner occupied homes. The demand for quality rental homes is still there, and the new construction of apartments is not enough to keep up with that, so we are seeing rents rise, particularly in the middle rental market for which 925 would be geared. This is not going to be "low income" or subsidized (the demonization of that needs to stop too, btw), but for that middle market which is now being squeezed. 1010 Euclid, as part of The 9, was done in the same way. I think they will do well in renting these out, and the demand for more will still be there. Downtown should not and can not be a gated community for the wealthy. Successful neighborhoods welcome all groups of people.

^ Agreed.

 

As stated upthread there needs to be significantly more affordable housing, but not segregated affordable housing - that's when demonization can occur. "Affordable" means below top-of-market. Not everyone can afford $1500-$2000/mo in rent. This can be achieved through mixed-income developments. They've successfully done it in other cities. It can be done in Cleveland.

Edited September 7, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

Is anyone able to post the renderings that were mentioned upthread? Thank you. 

22 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

Is anyone able to post the renderings that were mentioned upthread? Thank you. 

 

Those are old renderings from the prior plan.

4 minutes ago, KJP said:

Those are old renderings from the prior plan.

I don't care how old those renderings are, I want that goddamned awning!

2 hours ago, Ineffable_Matt said:

I don't care how old those renderings are, I want that goddamned awning!

 

And I want that grand piano that's in the lobby!  A nice throwback.

11 hours ago, KJP said:

Those are old renderings from the prior plan.

I thought the article said the restaurant, museum, etc. was still happening? I realized the plans changed for residential, but the lobbies are even changing?

21 hours ago, KJP said:

Those are old renderings from the prior plan.

So it’s not going to be the same in the new plan?

47 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

So it’s not going to be the same in the new plan?

I think we need to see the new renderings and then let the forum members vote to decide. 

52 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

So it’s not going to be the same in the new plan?

 

I suspect that the bank lobbies would look similar. We'll see. Still a long way to go. 

 

Hopefully This workforce housing can get started soon. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/the-centennial-pays-homage-to-clevelands-past-while-making-it-easier-to-live-downtown-in-the-future

^ Looks like it's still relying on the TMUD....

 

That makes me a lot less optimistic.

2 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

^ Looks like it's still relying on the TMUD....

 

That makes me a lot less optimistic.

 

Agreed.

Also, ... running their apartment rental numbers and making some assumptions about the rates for office and retail space ... It looks like Centennial would realistically be getting maybe $10 million annually in rent assuming very high occupancy. At $10 mil. a year in rent, that's 1/45 of their construction cost. I'm not a skilled finance guy, but it's hard for me to see how they could pull that off without the TMUD.

 

Interested if others have better perspective. Hopefully I am missing something, but let's compare it to the Lumen as an example. Vs. Lumen, you have more than three times the cost for less than three times the number of units, renting for way less on average. It's just hard for me to see how those numbers work without some big incentive.

Also also— why is this project $450 million? Lumen was about $225 per square foot for new build. This would be about $330 per square foot. Shouldn’t turning an existing building into cheap apartments be .... less expensive than building a whole new building of expensive apartments?

19 hours ago, simplythis said:

Hopefully This workforce housing can get started soon. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/the-centennial-pays-homage-to-clevelands-past-while-making-it-easier-to-live-downtown-in-the-future

 

868 units?  

 

Nice number.  That corner will be one of the busiest in the city.

 

Edit: With 868 extra units, this corner could have well over 2,000 units with the new City Club apartments being built across Euclid, along with the Euclid Grand as well. 

Edited September 29, 20204 yr by Oldmanladyluck

13 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

 

868 units?  

 

Nice number.  That corner will be one of the busiest in the city.

 

Edit: With 868 extra units, this corner could have well over 2,000 units with the new City Club apartments being built across Euclid, along with the Euclid Grand as well. 

Another gem downtown - those columns rock!