^ You took the words right out of my mouth. There are simply to many open store fronts around CBD to have stores hidden inside the Carew. I would think they could do a great job with renovating the space into something different.

Tower Place ordinance postponed

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/02/09/daily48.html

 

An emergency ordinance seeking to divide Tower Place Mall from its adjoining garage has been postponed, pending questions by Cincinnati City Council members.

Northeastern is working to fill many vacant sports at the mall. Most recently, it signed an independent retailer of cards, gifts and collectibles, called Everheart, to take the space. Everheart, which is locally based, is expected to open by April 1.

 

Good news...there is a need for a card shop downtown.  The closing of the Hallmark store years ago, followed by the closing of M. Hopple has left a void.

My understanding is that Tower Place still has one or two anchor department stores.  Is this true?  If so, how has Cincinnati been able to accomplish that?

Macy's and Saks Fifth Avenue are connected to Tower Place Mall via skywalks. The mall itself is fairly small with a popular food court.

 

Saks received a subsidy a while back to help with renovation costs. Macy's, Tiffany's, Brooks Brothers, Joseph A. Bank all exist on their own...probably a result of Saks being there. The Saks and Tiffany's are the only locations for those stores in the Cincy MSA.  A Nordstrom was even planned as recently as the late 90's early 2000s, but through restructuring within Nordstrom that deal fell through.

Thanks.  How is the Macy's able to survive?  Is it primarily the existence of Saks, or is Macy's recieving any kind of subsidy to stay?

 

The reason I'm asking is that I'm being told Cleveland cannot possibly get ONE downtown anchor retailer until the immediate downtown population reaches 20-25k, something like that.  I have found that this is not the norm for cities of Cleveland's size and would like to alleviate whatever roadblocks exist. 

 

One problem that comes up is not enough population or wealth within 5 miles.  Another problem is that suburban retail complexes are preferred by wealthier areas of the city.  Again, these don't seem like unique or insurmountable problems to me.  If true, they would seem to preclude any downtown retail in any mid-major city, yet most comparable cities have at least one downtown department store.

 

I guess my question is what could Cleveland do to be more like Cincinnati in this regard?  Am I crazy for thinking it shouldn't be this difficult?  Many authoritative voices on the Cleveland end of UO seem convinced we have to exponentially boost the downtown population before we can get even basic retail there.  I don't think that's a rational goal, or one that is possible to achieve.  20k people aren't going to move somewhere that lacks competitive retail offerings.

Is it primarily the existence of Saks, or is Macy's recieving any kind of subsidy to stay?

 

I wouldn't doubt it, since Macy's is HQ'd here.

 

I've also noticed that the TJ Maxx in Downtown has some of the best selections imo.

Is it primarily the existence of Saks, or is Macy's recieving any kind of subsidy to stay?

 

I wouldn't doubt it, since Macy's is HQ'd here.

 

Back when Macy's was Lazarus, Shillito's, etc, the location was on 7th Street.  They received either a tax break or subsidy to move to their current location.  This happened in the early to mid 90s.  Unfortunately, this store is definitely smaller than their 7th and Race location.  The old location had seven stories plus a basement with marked-down merchandise and clothing.  There was also a hair salon and a coffee shop.

 

Honestly, I think they would have closed that store years ago if it wasn't for their headquarters being downtown.

You have a TJ Maxx too?  Insert swear word.  I can't even buy a sock in downtown Cleveland when my feet are wet.  I take that back, I could buy a $50 sock at Brooks Brothers, which we do still have.  But you know what I mean.

"Many authoritative voices on the Cleveland end of UO seem convinced we have to exponentially boost the downtown population before we can get even basic retail there."

 

With all due respect, several of those authoritative voices ARE in the position of speaking directly with the site selection folks of many of these national retailers. They've sat at the negotiating table on more than one occasion to plead the case for retailers to locate in downtown Cleveland. When they relay their experience on the forum, maybe you should actually consider that they know what they're talking about instead of discounting facts presented by those in the know.

 

Others may not be in similar positions but we either know or are friends with the people that are trying to make those things happen. I'm not sure what else we can tell you to get you to understand the point. I haven't even touched on the current state of retail in a recession... or the fact that Cincinnati has more higher-income neighborhoods within the city than Cleveland, etc. Obviously, we'd ALL love to see better retail in downtown Cleveland but keep in mind that downtown has a 10K population *without* a strong retail scene. Fyi, Payless sells socks - probably not your first choice but you're not being accurate.

Obviously, we'd ALL love to see better retail in downtown Cleveland but keep in mind that downtown has a 10K population *without* a strong retail scene. Fyi, Payless sells socks - probably not your first choice but you're not being accurate.

 

Do you guys expect that number to increase with the 2010 census?

Back when Macy's was Lazarus, Shillito's, etc, the location was on 7th Street.  They received either a tax break or subsidy to move to their current location.  This happened in the early to mid 90s.  Unfortunately, this store is definitely smaller than their 7th and Race location.  The old location had seven stories plus a basement with marked-down merchandise and clothing.  There was also a hair salon and a coffee shop.

 

The same thing happened when Macy's took over the Kaufmann's store in downtown Pittsburgh. Which brings up the important question...do they even LIKE downtown stores?

 

The TJ Maxx remark reminds me to go check out the Burlington Store downtown too...and our Ghetto Saks...

 

Do you guys expect that number to increase with the 2010 census?

 

Sorry to take the thread off-topic again, but most likely there will be an increase - a lot of residential projects have come online (rental and for-sale) and there are more that should be finished by then.

Back when Macy's was Lazarus, Shillito's, etc, the location was on 7th Street. They received either a tax break or subsidy to move to their current location. This happened in the early to mid 90s. Unfortunately, this store is definitely smaller than their 7th and Race location. The old location had seven stories plus a basement with marked-down merchandise and clothing. There was also a hair salon and a coffee shop.

 

The same thing happened when Macy's took over the Kaufmann's store in downtown Pittsburgh. Which brings up the important question...do they even LIKE downtown stores?

 

The TJ Maxx remark reminds me to go check out the Burlington Store downtown too...and our Ghetto Saks...

 

 

There's a Burlington store in Downtown Cincinnati? ... Or are you referring to another city?

Thanks.  How is the Macy's able to survive?  Is it primarily the existence of Saks, or is Macy's recieving any kind of subsidy to stay?

 

At a recent conference here in Cincy, Lungren (CEO of Macy's) said that sales were actually picking up at the Downtown Cincinnati location.  I have also heard the same thing about Tiffanys which shares the building with Macys.

 

I would assume that there is some sort of tax incentive since most major businesses seem to get those nowadays whether they're in the 'burbs, urban core, or wherever.  One thing that helps Cincy is that until just the past decade or so Downtown retail still held a significant position in the Cincinnati area retail climate.  Kenwood Town Center has since took off, but in terms of high-end retail it's is either at Kenwood (most of the flagship stores) or Downtown (Saks, Tiffanys, Brooks Brothers).

 

The rest of the retailers Downtown do have some pull from nearby neighborhoods that aren't counted in the Downtown population, but still have a major impact on the area's demographics.  It should also be noted that the Downtown Macy's has reduced their square-footage as recently as a couple years ago.  But given their headquarters is just 1.5 blocks away I doubt you'll see it disappear completely.  If things continue on the upward trend they've been on, for the store, then you might even see some kind of increased presence once the economy turns around - who knows.

Back when Macy's was Lazarus, Shillito's, etc, the location was on 7th Street. They received either a tax break or subsidy to move to their current location. This happened in the early to mid 90s. Unfortunately, this store is definitely smaller than their 7th and Race location. The old location had seven stories plus a basement with marked-down merchandise and clothing. There was also a hair salon and a coffee shop.

 

The same thing happened when Macy's took over the Kaufmann's store in downtown Pittsburgh. Which brings up the important question...do they even LIKE downtown stores?

 

The TJ Maxx remark reminds me to go check out the Burlington Store downtown too...and our Ghetto Saks...

 

 

There's a Burlington store in Downtown Cincinnati? ... Or are you referring to another city?

Pittsburgh

Back when Macy's was Lazarus, Shillito's, etc, the location was on 7th Street. They received either a tax break or subsidy to move to their current location. This happened in the early to mid 90s. Unfortunately, this store is definitely smaller than their 7th and Race location. The old location had seven stories plus a basement with marked-down merchandise and clothing. There was also a hair salon and a coffee shop.

 

The same thing happened when Macy's took over the Kaufmann's store in downtown Pittsburgh. Which brings up the important question...do they even LIKE downtown stores?

 

The TJ Maxx remark reminds me to go check out the Burlington Store downtown too...and our Ghetto Saks...

 

 

There's a Burlington store in Downtown Cincinnati? ... Or are you referring to another city?

Pittsburgh

 

Gotcha. Thanks.

Macy's has generally abandoned nearly all of its dt stores at this point save the biggest cities and a couple exceptions. Sadly, the Dillard's buy of Mercantile stores actually killed the store that was supposed to be where Nordstrom was supposed to be. They were all set to put a Maison Blanche (their upscale brand at the time dt), but Dillard's killed the idea along with all of McAlpin's customer base. Still makes me mad today.

^Now that you mention it, it is crazy how much their customer base dropped off.  I knew a ton of people that regularly shopped at McAlpin's, but until you just said that, I forgot that Dillard's was still in the area!

Part of it was the fact that they lost their best sales staff and many of their best managers to Lazarus. The combination of Dillard's and Walmart makes me really kind of hate Arkansas.

The downtown Macy's has virtually no men's clothes unless you want to run around with a Ralph Lauren or Nautica logo on your chest for the rest of your life.  Also, they have an especially unpleasant woman with bad teeth who has worked in the men's department for at least 5 years.  The place is good if you're in town on business and forgot to pack a belt or tie or dark socks, but that's about it.   

Sadly, that is about the quality of all Macy's clothing selection these days regardless of dt or not.

The downtown Macy's has virtually no men's clothes unless you want to run around with a Ralph Lauren or Nautica logo on your chest for the rest of your life.

 

You mean to tell me you're not a label type of guy?

The downtown Macy's has virtually no men's clothes unless you want to run around with a Ralph Lauren or Nautica logo on your chest for the rest of your life.

 

You mean to tell me you're not a label type of guy?

]

 

I know ... no INC or Affliction???

I would suggest to the guys, check out the Club Room brand of Macy's. No, its not top end, but for college/young professionals, I find their clothing to be great. I am not a big shopper, but I find myself going to Macy's more than Dillard's vs. a couple of years ago. The Dillard's at Tri-County is probably the best one around, but why not support the mothership based in our own city? Also, Sears is carrying Land's End, which has excellent quality at a good price.

The downtown Macy's has virtually no men's clothes unless you want to run around with a Ralph Lauren or Nautica logo on your chest for the rest of your life. Also, they have an especially unpleasant woman with bad teeth who has worked in the men's department for at least 5 years. The place is good if you're in town on business and forgot to pack a belt or tie or dark socks, but that's about it.

 

You forgot the always-annoying Tommy Hillfiger logos that are slapped from top-to-bottom on their clothes. I hate that more than anything.

 

I go to Macy's in DT every once-in-a-while to look at ties, wallets and belts, but mainly browse.

I'd bet that Club Room stuff survives 2 or 3 wash cycles before it's done.  I've still got a pair of Brooks Brothers shirts Santa gave me in 2001 that courtesy of dry cleaning are still wearable.  They probably cost $90 each and I've probably dry cleaned each of them 30 times but that's still cheaper than replacing all your shirts every 4 months. 

Club Room is Macy's "young" brand -- like a JCrew standalone, but cheaper (and inferior). I own quite a few JCrew shirts that last and last, but some of JCrew's jeans are not as sturdy as they used to be -- thinner materials, for instance.

I've always thought of Club Room as the ugly fat American brand. Alfani used to be quite excellent though the quality has clearly suffered in the last 5 years (this is not a Macy's problem alone, as I find the quality of nearly all men's clothes these days that aren't expensive to be of an embarrassing quality).

So what does everyone think would save tower place? Can it survive as a mall? What stores would it need? If not a mall, then what?

I'm not going to lie... I love INC. Sometimes I have an idea on what I think would look "cool" ... and INC usually comes pretty close to that idea. During the Xmas sale, I bought jeans for $15 each. Their threads usually hold well and the dyes stay dark. I love Kenneth Cole designs, but the threads come loose on everything. A female friend of mine bought a nice KC purse and I said jokingly .... watch, those threads will come loose and sure enough, they did. Unfortunately, INC isn't in the DT location.

So what does everyone think would save tower place? Can it survive as a mall? What stores would it need? If not a mall, then what?

 

They need to get a major anchor into Tower place itself if it to survive as it stands----Maybe H&M or something along those lines--something new to market.  It cannot survive with a typical mall mix---it has to have stores that can't be found elsewhere--and only a couple stores fit that criteria right now.  The food court needs to be redeveloped----something like the food court in the Water Tower-Chicago would be nice.  If they can't make something like that happen, then the top floors need to become offices and the street level retail/resturants.  Right now it only has a couple of unique stores.

 

As far as the Downtown Macy's---while it is not Kenwood, I enjoy going there.  I can get many of the clothing items I need.  Their Eagle Brand shirts wear well and survive many washings/dryings.  I can't begin to tell you the number of people that think I have my Eagle shirts professionally dry cleaned/pressed.  It would be nice if they added INC.

^ I think I'm with Cincyimages on this one. What happens when the shine wears off? History tells us it will, therefore it doesn't need to be a mall. Keep shopping on streetside storefronts.

 

 

... make it a beer hall of fame.

I think the food court should and will maintain its presence.  It just makes a lot of sense given all the business workers, and these small-scale food joints probably wouldn't be able to afford the rent at street-level spaces.

 

As for the rest, I don't care.  Make it offices, turn it into a movie theatre complex, grocery store, whatever.

I've always thought of Club Room as the ugly fat American brand.

 

That would describe me. I have a number of Club Room shirts and they've lasted.  I also wear Polo shirts in the summer. 

 

Interesting reading these snob comments on clothes. 

I think the food court should and will maintain its presence. 

 

The small time operator aspect of the food court reminds me a bit of those small food places that used to be in the Fifth/Race building (I think thats what it was called, the one that was torn down).

It cannot survive with a typical mall mix---it has to have stores that can't be found elsewhere--and only a couple stores fit that criteria right now.  The food court needs to be redeveloped----something like the food court in the Water Tower-Chicago would be nice.  If they can't make something like that happen, then the top floors need to become offices and the street level retail/resturants.  Right now it only has a couple of unique stores.

 

I agree with most of this.  When Tower Place first opened, they had a lot of store that were unique to the area.  Then they started building more and more malls around the region, and many of the stores that were once unique to Tower Place started open locations at these glorified strip malls (aka lifestyle centers).

 

The only part I don't agree with is the food court.  It does seem to do a good business, and I heard that it's the most successful food court of all the malls in the region.  I see no reason to change it.

Perhaps growing the food court into the upper levels might be a way to start.

The last time I went to the Tower Place food court, there were several resturants that had closed.  Has this changed recently?

 

I have only seen it busy during lunch----all other times of the day, it is dead. 

An interior mall foodcourt doesn't need to be busy any other time of the day outside of lunch...that's pretty much the sole purpose it's there for.

I think at one point the DT Macy's did have INC, could be mistaken tho. 

 

I agree that Tower Place needs to reinvent itself with more unique stores though, making it a destination mall.  I'm in college right now and I know of several of my friends that will drive to Columbus just to go the the H&M there.  Redeveloping in the mold of Water Tower Place in Chicago would be a good start.  At the same time, we say that Tower Place needs stores like H&M, etc., but would the banks not also be a great spot for stores like these?  Also, Tower Place definitely needs more advertising, I'm not sure even half of UC's population is aware of Tower Place's existence and it's a whole lot easier to get there from Clifton than it is to get to Kenwood

Also, I think a Cinema de lux similar to that which just opened in Florence would be really cool in downtown whether they take Tower Place in that direction or some other under-used perfect location for say, anything (5th & race, cough cough)

Honestly, the best chance for Tower Place is if the streetcar is built and makes it to Uptown. Suddenly, it becomes easily accessible to that area, until then not much is going to happen. Downtown malls need many more folks to really succeed than Cincy has at the moment, but the streetcar would expand that quite a bit (and the 17 is such a pain to use that it doesn't really shape people's behavior like the streetcar might).

Churchill’s Tea Room closing at Tower Place

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/02/23/daily11.html

 

Churchill’s Tea Room and Gifts will close its Tower Place store March 3.

I had a feeling this was just a matter of time...there's been a lot of closings going on around Cincy lately it seems.

I had a feeling this was just a matter of time...there's been a lot of closings going on around the nation lately it seems.

 

There, fixed! ;)

if you've ever read the book "It's not News It's Fark" it talks about the proximity to Atlanta, DC, NYC effect where the news covers things more closely when they happen near the headquarters of the organization.  I think this happens here as well.  Why is it that every Tower Place closing is its own story, but when the TCBY or the Bo Rics closes in Blue Ash you hear nothing about it. 

 

The business courier had more coverage of the downtown Brentanos closing than the much larger tri county/springdale Borders.

Downtown is far more important than a place like Springdale, and thus it gets more attention when things open and close.  Also, Downtown has far less retail than Springdale, Kenwood, and Florence, so when a store goes out of business DT, it means a whole lot more for the area than if it happened elsewhere.

 

I really don't know how Cincy is going to bring more retail downtown.  Restaurant and bar wise we are doing great, but these are mostly night time establishments.  If we want a healthy daytime weekend atmosphere, and if we really want people to come downtown for more than isolated trips to dinner and a show/game, then we really need to up the retail.

On this issue, I think the massive decline of the Tri-County retail district is far more significant than the closing of a tea shop dt.

^I concur!    Tri-County may be the first of many in the area!