It's already some what of a shame that Macy's can't provide a better store in the downtown core of its corporate HQ than what they do. NYC will always be the flagship but Cincinnati's downtown store should be more than just another generic location.

 

They must be taking after Kroger. 

At least Chicago got the Rock 'N Roll McDonald's.

They need to be on top of the maintenance in their public latrines off the food court.  Like emptying the trash and keeping toilet paper in the stalls.

 

 

http://www.towerplace.com/media/pdf/directory.pdf

Why did you post that? I looked and couldn't find anything noteworthy.

@Edale: Er, I meant to ask how old is this map below? The stores are all listed, and it shows Fountain Square with the fountain in the old? location, and a visitor's center that obviously no longer exists.

 

http://www.towerplace.com/media/pdf/directory.pdf

 

Compare that map to today's:

http://www.towerplace.com/index.php?level2=stores

^^ I know it's been posted elsewhere that they are committed, but I won't believe that until they sign new leases downtown.  Typically, "committed to downtown" does not mean "we're staying" the same way a lease renewal does.

 

Also, what does everyone think about the future of this mall?  Will it go the way of Columbus's City Center Mall and die? Should it?  Will it be revived?  And if so, how?  Remember that the current owner of the mall specializes in parking garages, not retail.  Also that the leasing agent for the mall has a good reputation for bringing tenants to Rookwood.  After a year with only Soho Sushi to show for new occupants, is it time to reconsider or stay the course? 

 

Please post your answer in 5 to 10 pages with 12 point font, 1" margin.  Thanks !  :-P

The odd thing is that Tower City in Celeveland seems to still have a lot of retail and food things in it.  Maybe there is more foot traffic through the place due to the rapid transit.  Or maybe there is more of a market in Celevland for downtown retail.

 

So I think that these downtown shopping places are not inherently doomed, since both Cleveland and Indianapolis both seem to have viable ones. 

 

For this one, maybe they just fill in the hole with additional floors and turn the place into a mix of "skywalk" between the parking/Saks and the Carew Tower arcade area (that double height space between the Carew Tower and Netherland Hotel), and offices (turn the parking area into offices).  Or you could just fill in the hole with more parking deck since I think its ringed by parking anyway.

 

The space facing the skywalk could be retail space, or big glass windows looking into the offices (to add visual interest to the walk)

 

Or you could just tear the whole thing down and start over (the Columbus solution).

 

 

Leasing troubles aside, you have to remember that Tower Place is substantially smaller than any of its counterparts in Indy, Columbus, or Cleveland.  It is only takes up about a 1/4 block in downtown Cincinnati

Someone earlier remarked that it's a very inward-facing structure, and I think that contributes greatly to its failure. That works in suburban malls that are shopping destinations, but not in a downtown space where you want to attract passersby with street-level retail. I'd like to see it revived, obviously because that's the simpler and cheaper option, but in all honesty I think it should just be razed and replaced with something more street-friendly like a mixed use retail/residential building.

TP's issues fall on the management's and only the management's shoulders.

TP's issues fall on the management's and only the management's shoulders.

 

I think that is an oversimplification, TP has had 3-4 owners/managers in the last 10+ years.  It also faces the same macroeconomic factors facing malls and retail.  The national recession had been extremely hard on retailers nationally, the mall/retail vacancy rate across the nation is way high, many chains are going under, and last but not least, it is a downtown mall in a suburban mall dominated region (unlike a NYC or Chicago).

 

 

TP's issues fall on the management's and only the management's shoulders.

 

I think that is an oversimplification, TP has had 3-4 owners/managers in the last 10+ years. It also faces the same macroeconomic factors facing malls and retail. The national recession had been extremely hard on retailers nationally, the mall/retail vacancy rate across the nation is way high, many chains are going under, and last but not least, it is a downtown mall in a suburban mall dominated region (unlike a NYC or Chicago).

 

 

 

No, I agree ... it sounds like I'm oversimplifying it, but it's true.

 

Complaining about circumstances that you have no control of or is out of your hands is pointless.

 

 

Companies/Businesses that are able to adapt to change and reinvent themselves will be the survivors in the long run ... business models have had to do this for decades ... the ones that couldn't fold or face a tremendous loss. You and I can both rattle off a long list  of companies that folded when demand was still there, but couldn't adapt to change.

 

Tri-County continues to reinvent itself, Northgate has some new ideas up its sleeve to give itself another round, the monthly lease amount remains high at KTC, and Rookwood Commons seems to be doing well (speaking from opinion only, re: Rookwood).

 

Some fastfood chains have suffered, while we saw new franchises emerge and existing ones grow.

 

What makes Eaton Centre successful in a city smaller than Chicago and a population density smaller than San Francisco? ... Especially when it seems Urban/Downtown Malls in general - universally have taken a beating.

 

This discussion reminds me of the recent article I read the other day discussing the mandatory law President Obama is passed requiring auto manufacturers to produce vehicles that run on no less than 60 MPG's by 2025.

 

The response from the cars lobbying group stated that Americans really don't care about high gas milage and aren't willing to pay for it when we have 20,000+ Nissan Leafs already pre-sold before they're even available and every commercial on TV touting the "amazing" gas milage when available - along with the slump of SUV sales.

^So the question is "Does anyone on the board know the managers of Tower Place Mall?  and/or "Is anyone on the board a member of the team managing the mall?"

Another one bites the dust:

 

Sbarro restaurant at Tower Place closes

 

The Sbarro Italian Eatery at Tower Place Mall has closed. The eatery’s last day of business was Saturday. General manager Samantha Renick said on Monday that there was not enough business in the mall to support the restaurant.

 

According to Enquirer research, Sbarro has been in Tower Place since 1991.

Wow, when a mall staple like Sbarro can't survive, something is wrong.  What's next?  Chick-fil-et?

Chick-fil-a is always busy there. My guess is the New Orleans Big Easy place

More on Tower Place food court

Posted by lbaverman November 2nd, 2010, 5:35 pm

 

Gold Star Chili in Tower Place Mall has a lease up at the end of this year, and its owner hopes to renegotiate for lower rent.

 

Sales have been down nearly 4 percent this year, said Basim Daoud, owner of the restaurant and a shareholder in the Gold Star Chili corporation. The lack of shopping at the mall, combined with economic circumstances have hurt the business.

 

cont

Sales have been down nearly 4 percent this year, said Basim Daoud, owner of the restaurant and a shareholder in the Gold Star Chili corporation. The lack of shopping at the mall, combined with economic circumstances have hurt the business.

 

Actually, I think part of the problem is their terrible staff (bad even by fast food standards).  I love Gold Star, but mostly stopped going after having to deal with their slow, rude, ditzy personnel.

This somewhat surprises me as the store is constantly busy...

 

 

Victoria's Secret to close at Tower Place

Business Courier Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 2:00pm EST

 

 

Victoria’s Secret in Tower Place Mall is scheduled to close Jan. 23.

 

An employee who identified herself as the manager said the location would be closing but wouldn't provide further details.

 

The new manager of downtown Cincinnati's Tower Place Mall, Cassidy Turley of Ohio Inc., is hoping to create a new marketing strategy for the half-empty downtown retail center.

 

cont

 

I'm starting to really like the idea of making Tower Place a cinema. Hopefully, then, the retail stores could find a street downtown to make a shopping district.

 

It would be nice if Dohoney or someone would try to facilitate this.

I would also like to see Tower Place turn into a Downtown movie theater.

Sounds like a great fit to me too.

 

 

 

 

I always envisioned Tower Place being redeveloped in the manner that 4th Street Live was. Strip out the mall component and install some real attractions. The Borders in downtown Louisville is one of the chain's top performers (although the entire chain itself will go tits up here in a few months), and other components - like the numerous clubs/drinking establishments and the bowling alley were nice additions. I can see Tower Place hosting a 12-screen theater, maybe with some IMAX screens, a relocated Joseph Beth (their current Rookwood location is just terrible), and maybe some items for the 8-5 crowd (Office Depot?).

4th Street Live was fortunate that it was easy to redevelop due to a street running through the space...when the original Galleria was built they kept the 4th Street alginmnent as the atrium space. 

 

So 4th Street Live has this indoor-outdoor aspect that opens itself up to the city more.  I don't see this with Tower Place. 

 

 

^ perhaps with the Banks filling up & the looming announcement of a residential high rise at 5th & Race demand for TP will grow?

 

As much as I absolutely hate the tower place garage, I recently read that it's highly profitable and is the only reason the mall is able to survive.  Ideally we could get the mall back up and running on it's own, and then replace that garage with something less offensive. 

Tower Place Mall headed to auction block?

City official wants to see mall’s turnaround plan

Business Courier by Lucy May, Senior Staff Reporter/Associate Editor

 

Tower Place Mall and its neighboring 10-story parking garage could soon be on the auction block, raising questions about who will control the two important properties that sit in the path of downtown Cincinnati’s revitalization.

 

“The city is concerned about how dark Tower Place is,” said Cincinnati Economic Development Director Odis Jones. “We’re concerned about the disinvestment, and we’re concerned about the property owner’s mission and vision for reversing that course.”

 

The half-empty mall and 1,082-space garage are the subject of a foreclosure dispute in Hamilton County Common Pleas Court. A holding company known as LSREF2 BARON 3 LLC now ...

 

Cont (Premium Article)

I wouldn't shed any tears to see that hideous parking garage disappear and get replaced with something nicer. It completely sucks the life out of that entire section of 4th Street.

I had always heard that the parking garage was profitable and that the owner had been trying (unsuccessfully) for awhile to separate the two properties so it could drop the pretenses of holding on to the mall.  I guess the whole "startup mall" concept isn't leading the mall down the path of redemption...

I had always heard that the parking garage was profitable and that the owner had been trying (unsuccessfully) for awhile to separate the two properties so it could drop the pretenses of holding on to the mall.  I guess the whole "startup mall" concept isn't leading the mall down the path of redemption...

 

That garage is a valuable asset. Office tenants of Carew Tower, 525 Vine, Textile Bldg., 312 Elm, 312 Plum, etc all park there.

The parking garage is like a giant skeleton. That said, it serves a purpose but these two properties could be put to much better use. I can't stand Tower Place Mall -- mostly due to the last word in its name.

The parking garage is like a giant skeleton. That said, it serves a purpose but these two properties could be put to much better use. I can't stand Tower Place Mall -- mostly due to the last word in its name.

 

I have no idea what you can do with place. Seems like every idea has been tossed around. Did Macy's kill it or was it in decline prior to that? Every time

I walk into WaterTower in Chicago that place is packed. They also have new bar-restaurants on the second level that are really cool. But it is Michigan Ave

and a huge tourist area.

Nordstroms in Indy closed. correct?

^The Downtown Indy Nordstrom did close, corect. 

Chicago's Water Tower Place is on a completely different level than Cincinnati's Tower Place. As you mention, it sits at the hub of a major tourist destination. It also has two flagship anchor stores, which Tower Place hasn't really had since McAlpin's closed. The Magnificent Mile also has two other major vertical malls -- Chicago Place and the Shops at 900 North Michigan -- which haven't been nearly as successful. Chicago Place (where Saks is located) has struggled since it opened, and (IMO) owes its continued existance only to the large food court on the top floor which draws in foot traffic. The Shops at 900 North Michigan (home of Bloomingdale's) have been somewhat more successful, but serves a very exclusive market that simply doesn't yet exist in downtown Cincinnati.

 

One way for Tower Place to revitalize itself as a mall would be to tear down the garage on Fourth Street and replace it with a high-end department store such as a Bloomingdale's or Neiman Marcus (with parking above or below), and have it closely linked to a newly-renovated Tower Place Mall that serves a much higher-end clientele with shops like the Apple Store, Chanel, Kenneth Cole, etc. As it stands right now -- with shops like T.J. Maxx and a crappy cell phone store -- Tower Place has all the retail appeal of a jank strip mall on Colerain Avenue.

 

And yes, before the urbanistas jump down my throat: There should also be places downtown for local independent stores, but those local independent stores are going to go into places like older street-level storefronts and in OTR, not in an enclosed mall like Tower Place. I'm not opposed to the concept of an indoor mall downtown, if it's properly designed and serves as a strong enough shopping destination that it encourages foot traffic throughout the surrounding area. Right now, Tower Place fulfils neither of those criteria.

It seems like Tower Place Mall - if the plan is to try to revitalize it with retail - is going to be in direct competition with the next phase of The Banks, which is going to certainly have to be more than just restaurants. That market is nearing the saturation point as is. It's time to add some real retail heft to downtown like Apple Store, a book store (Joseph Beth?), a Nike Town, etc., if we're going to take the next step.

 

Would City Target be a possibility for Tower Place? Or perhaps for that mammoth corner building across from TPM at Fourth and Race that's seemingly been empty since the Stone Age? Heck, even the stores that TPM used to have - Victoria's Secret, GAP, Banana Republic, Express, Williams-Sonoma, Foot Locker, fye - would be pretty sweet to have back downtown, but at street level somewhere.

 

 

Chicago Place (where Saks is located) has struggled since it opened, and (IMO) owes its continued existance only to the large food court on the top floor which draws in foot traffic.

 

That mall closed a while ago, and I don't think the food court is operating any longer.  The big old main entrance was taken over by the UK store "ALLSAINTS Spitalfields" a couple years ago and the corner location (that had inside and outside entrances as a Talbots is now Zara.  I think they were trying to put offices in the upper mall floors.  I haven't been in Saks in years because it's womens only, but I should go in to see if you can still see the mall from the windows inside.  The other big mall on Michigan Ave is "The Shops at North Bridge" with Nordstrom anchoring.  There is also a new 4 level mall in the loop called block 37 that sits between the red and blue line subway entrances, but the developer got taken over by the bank and it has languished with a few stores mostly on the first level...though decent stores like Zara, Puma and .  There is access to State St Macy's (the original Marshall Field's) through the Red Line station.

 

Maybe Tower Place could turn inside out similar to Chicago Place with multi level street front stores...but then again it is probably protected historically.  It's a great location that could offer some sort of first quality retail space to national type retailers if done right IMO.

City Target would be nice, but I'm not sure how feasible that would be with a brand-new Target just across the river in Newport. Also, big boxes like Target tend to like large, continuous amounts of floor space with only one (maximum two) entrances. Tower place has a big atrium in the middle and at least six entry points (including those from the Carew Tower complex), which would make it a planning and logistical nightmare for a single big-box retailer. The Tower Place mall might work as a department store with decentralized checkouts, but I doubt somebody like Target or Whole Foods would touch it with a ten-foot pole. Bloomingdale's in particular has shown a willingness to open smaller stores in urban areas in recent years (their SoHo store in NYC and their store in downtown Santa Monica come to mind), so they might be a possibility. It also helps that they're locally-owned, as part of Macy's. Neiman Marcus, I think, generally prefers larger stores that they build from scratch.

 

(I bring up Bloomingdale's and Neiman Marcus because those are two well-recognized, high-end stores that don't yet have a Cincinnati presence. Having one of those downtown in addition to Saks would be a big leg up against Kenwood.)

 

If Target or somebody like them were to go into downtown Cincinnati, I'd see them either going into a brand-new building at The Banks, or perhaps taking over one or more floors of the podium section of the Terrace Hotel building. I'd still prefer to see an independent movie theater go into that space, though.

Ideally Tower Place Mall and the old Pogue's block-long garage will be torn down and redeveloped as part of one coordinated development.  The Pogue's garage occupies a 140x400 footprint with about 700 parking spaces.  Tower place is 200x200 feet and appears to have another 150 or so spaces.  There is an opportunity here to create a contiguous underground parking garage that could pass under Race St. allowing upwards of 50 more spaces per deck (both the space under the street and by reducing the need for duplicate exit ramps where Tower Place is now).  Also, the Tower Place garage has the donut hole in the middle at present for the mall's glass atrium that could become parking in the footprint.

 

So with the site cleared, there can be about 250 parking spaces per deck of underground garage, so about 750 spaces in a 3-level garage.  Then more parking can be added in the upper levels, but of course nothing like the 7-floor Pogue's garage. 

 

 

^ That would certainly be an interesting approach. It would provide a clean slate for something of much higher quality than the status quo, remove one of the largest and unsightliest skywalks over Race Street, and yet still retain at least the same number of parking spaces.

It would be a huge ordeal to pull off, since there are two owners, and I'm sure that Pogue's garage is a cash cow for whoever owns it.  There would need to be several decks of above-ground parking though since they'd for sure need to replace the existing parking that is used by surrounding businesses. 

 

I suppose another option would be to build the underground parking out under 4th St. as well, which would get about 150 more parking spaces per deck.  But building garages under these streets requires complete reconstruction of utilities, which is why it is rare, and only done in the case of public garages, such as the Fountain Square garage, which was built under 5th St. and abuts the foundation of the Westin Hotel. 

I think any serious redevelopment will have to wait until we see how the Dunnhumby complex and the Banks plays out.

Tower Place foreclosure case headed to mediation

Business Courier by Lucy May, Senior Staff Reporter/Associate Editor

Date: Friday, September 7, 2012, 2:47pm EDT

 

 

If you’re hoping to buy downtown’s Tower Place Mall or its neighboring 10-story garage at auction, hold onto your checkbook.

 

The foreclosure case that enveloped the Fourth Street property was referred to mediation.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2012/09/tower-place-foreclosure-case-headed-to.html

Not sure where to put this post but Saks Fifth Avenue just announced it was closing its Highland Park, IL store...super wealthy suburb (by other Chicago suburbs like Lake Forest and Wilmette/Winnetka.)

Hope the same fate doesn't await Cincy....but it definitely seems like Saks is taking a close look at all of its properties....and this was the last one I expected to see close.

Damn, I grew up in Highland Park, and the demographics are just right for such a place.  I'd suspect some sort of management issue with the Renaissance Place development where Sacks is located, or perhaps some internal issues with Sacks itself.  It could be something like Borders, which before folding closed down several of its highest grossing stores, just because they were the ones with the highest rents.  Does that mean the higher rents were not offset by the higher incomes?  I'm not sure, but it's one of those bean counter moves that seems fishy, or at least not looking at the big picture.

 

That said, I imagine this store only drew customers from Highland Park itself.  The North Shore downtowns tend to be pretty insular, at least for the hoity toity stuff.  I don't think anyone from Lake Forest or Winnetka, or even Glencoe would bother going to Highland Park to shop at such a place, just like only residents of Lake Forest (or perhaps Lake Bluff which has no real business district of its own) would go to the fancy schmancy Macy's (formerly Marshall Field's) in Lake Forest's Market Square.  That's probably one reason it finally closed too.  I think also that these more urban/town square developments are too different for these huge corporations to handle.  They just don't fit well enough into their normative formulae, so they can't properly analyze them, or to tailor individual stores to the demographics best suited to them.  There's no way Macy's, which spans the whole country, can be as responsive to local forces as Marshall Field's, which was a Chicago company whose first branch store was that one in Lake Forest! 

 

This is the same problem you see with somewhere like Tower Place.  It gets filled up with a bunch of chain stores that are geared towards suburban shopping malls.  When they expect their big crowds on weekends or in the evening, and they open at 10:00, and don't change their products to something more businesspeople would be interested in as opposed to soccer moms and teenagers, it's no wonder their metrics don't work out.  Heaven forbid they can't get exactly the right floor plate to do their standard layout, which somehow makes their business completely untenable.  Oh well, I better stop before getting too much deeper into this craziness.

I believe Macy's breaks itself into several regional divisions so they can better predict what the customers in various regions want. Also, I would think some of the success or failures of the chains would have to do with local management. No, they don't cater to business people in TJ Maxx in downtown Cincy, but would business people even stop at TJ Maxx before Saks or Macy's?

 

I believe there is a large bus station just East of Tower Place, you'd think some of the people that catch the bus at that station would shop in stores like Macy's or TJ Maxx.

 

From what I've seen the downtown malls with connectivity to transit have survived the best. Look at Westfield San Francisco center, Lennox square in Atlanta. Hell even Tower City in Cleveland is holding on compared to other downtown Ohio Malls. The common thread is access to transit. Those people waiting for the Bus/train spend that time waiting to do some shopping as well.

The Pogue's garage occupies a 140x400 footprint with about 700 parking spaces.  Tower place is 200x200 feet and appears to have another 150 or so spaces. 

 

Pogue's garage is just over 1000 spaces, tower place garage is around 200 spaces.

What I've heard from friends who are consulting with the city on this is that whats being considered is to remove the two in-street ramps, replace the elevator with one inside the structure (opening up the sidewalk) and re-do the facade of the retail space as well as consider a facade improvement on the southern face of the structure.

^ That would be an improvement, IMO, but it's still putting lipstick on a pig. Hopefully the real estate market will improve to the point where it will make economic sense to knock that whole thing down and replace it with something much better.

What I've heard from friends who are consulting with the city on this is that whats being considered is to remove the two in-street ramps, replace the elevator with one inside the structure (opening up the sidewalk) and re-do the facade of the retail space as well as consider a facade improvement on the southern face of the structure.

 

Been talking about that since at least the mid 90s!

^ That would be an improvement, IMO, but it's still putting lipstick on a pig. Hopefully the real estate market will improve to the point where it will make economic sense to knock that whole thing down and replace it with something much better.

 

Highly unlikely that that will happen anytime soon.