>Pogue's garage is just over 1000 spaces, tower place garage is around 200 spaces.

 

I was going by what was visible on google satellite + streetview.  I must not have counted the decks correctly. 

 

Damn, I grew up in Highland Park, and the demographics are just right for such a place.  I'd suspect some sort of management issue with the Renaissance Place development where Sacks is located, or perhaps some internal issues with Sacks itself.  It could be something like Borders, which before folding closed down several of its highest grossing stores, just because they were the ones with the highest rents.  Does that mean the higher rents were not offset by the higher incomes?  I'm not sure, but it's one of those bean counter moves that seems fishy, or at least not looking at the big picture.

 

That said, I imagine this store only drew customers from Highland Park itself.  The North Shore downtowns tend to be pretty insular, at least for the hoity toity stuff.  I don't think anyone from Lake Forest or Winnetka, or even Glencoe would bother going to Highland Park to shop at such a place, just like only residents of Lake Forest (or perhaps Lake Bluff which has no real business district of its own) would go to the fancy schmancy Macy's (formerly Marshall Field's) in Lake Forest's Market Square.  That's probably one reason it finally closed too.  I think also that these more urban/town square developments are too different for these huge corporations to handle.  They just don't fit well enough into their normative formulae, so they can't properly analyze them, or to tailor individual stores to the demographics best suited to them.  There's no way Macy's, which spans the whole country, can be as responsive to local forces as Marshall Field's, which was a Chicago company whose first branch store was that one in Lake Forest! 

 

This is the same problem you see with somewhere like Tower Place.  It gets filled up with a bunch of chain stores that are geared towards suburban shopping malls.  When they expect their big crowds on weekends or in the evening, and they open at 10:00, and don't change their products to something more businesspeople would be interested in as opposed to soccer moms and teenagers, it's no wonder their metrics don't work out.  Heaven forbid they can't get exactly the right floor plate to do their standard layout, which somehow makes their business completely untenable.  Oh well, I better stop before getting too much deeper into this craziness.

 

You bring up some great points about the demographics of the North Shore.  We are in process from moving from Evanston to Highland Park and were dismayed by all of the empty storefronts in Renaissance Place.  Still a great little downtown, though. 

Anyway, I brought this up just to reiterate that Saks is really looking at individual store performance, especially for stand-alone (non mall) locations.  Hopefully Cincy will keep bringing it strong. 

I think Tower Place could be a great location/space for a large urban grocery market i.e. one of the 2 story ones you see in larger cities.  A larger dorothy lane.  It would have covenient parking, a very central downtown location close to a lot of resedential/futurel resedential and could get a great lunch crowd (many of the urban markets have great prepared foods/deli areas and ample seating).  Furthermore I think the building as it is curretnly configured would allow for easy food delivery.  Thoughts? 

^ I already explained why the Tower Place building would be a bad fit for any sort of big-box retailer a few pages ago. You might want to go back and familiarize yourself with the thread. Short version: grocery stores and other big boxes have very specific requirements for floor plates, number of entry points, etc. Tower Place doesn't meet those requirements.

 

If/when a grocery store or something like a City Target goes into downtown Cincinnati, it will most likely be either in a new development such as the Banks, or some former department store space such as the lower floors of the Terrace Plaza building.

^ I already explained why the Tower Place building would be a bad fit for any sort of big-box retailer a few pages ago. You might want to go back and familiarize yourself with the thread. Short version: grocery stores and other big boxes have very specific requirements for floor plates, number of entry points, etc. Tower Place doesn't meet those requirements.

 

If/when a grocery store or something like a City Target goes into downtown Cincinnati, it will most likely be either in a new development such as the Banks, or some former department store space such as the lower floors of the Terrace Plaza building.

 

Not necessarily sure you are correct there.  Given tower place already housed dozens of retailers and restuarants, I don't think that would really be an issue.

Again, you miss the point. Housing dozens of small retailers and restaurants is a lot different than housing one big retailer.

They need to tear the place down and start over.  It was built for specific conditions that don't exist anymore and will never return.

Now, if Saks ended up closing their downtown location, that would be an ideal space for a City Target store (assuming Target wanted to have a new store just across the river from their Newport location), and a lot more useful to most downtown residents. And from a construction point of view, the conversion process would be fairly straightforward.

^Target would never keep a New Newport location, downtown location Oakley location & their new blue ash location.

Probably not. That said, there are two Target stores in Culver City, CA that are almost within walking distance of each other, and they both somehow manage to stay busy.

Not even a comparison. That area is insanely dense & has dozens of cities pressed against each other. Purchasing power in even the lower middle class areas in LA are pretty high. Probably beats most of Cincinnati's Westside and theres a target in Westwood I forgot about. Maybe if the Newport target hadn't been built, but currently there's no chance.

Yet another restaurant to leave the increasingly vacant mall:

 

Cassidy Turley sues to evict restaurant from Tower Place Mall

 

Business Courier by Jon Newberry, Staff Reporter

Date: Tuesday, November 6, 2012, 12:15pm EST

 

As sparse as customer traffic has been at Tower Place Mall in downtown Cincinnati, it could get sparser.

Cassidy Turley, the court-appointed receiver for the largely vacant Fourth Street shopping venue, is suing to evict a Hamilton-based franchisee of Great Steak & Potato Co. for alleged failure to pay its rent.

The restaurant has occupied space in the mall’s food court since 1992.

Not sure if its due to it being Veteran's Day, but Big Easy Cajun and Slammin Burger in Tower Place Food Court are closed. I've not seen any news on it. Will check again tomorrow. It does look like Great Steak & Potato might be on the way out...

 

 

Cassidy Turley sues to evict restaurant from Tower Place Mall

Business Courier by Jon Newberry

 

As sparse as customer traffic has been at Tower Place Mall in downtown Cincinnati, it could get sparser.

 

Cassidy Turley, the court-appointed receiver for the largely vacant Fourth Street shopping venue, is suing to evict a Hamilton-based franchisee of Great Steak & Potato Co. for alleged failure to pay its rent.

 

The restaurant has occupied space in the mall’s food court since 1992.

 

Cont

The mall is an obsolete structure. Both it and the garage ought to come down.

At least do a reuse feasibility study before taking it right down. Malls are generally hard to repurpose, but Tower Place is much more vertically oriented than most malls and comes with the bonus parking. If you could penetrate the exterior more, perhaps it could be adapted.

That's a fair point... i just have always thought the structure was pretty ugly and didn't interface with the street well enough.

It appears the Pogue garage on 4th is included in the foreclosure as well.

Aside from the obvious redevelopment opportunities, I wonder if the City still has some financial interest in the property which they are trying to recover from its construction or some other financial assistance over the last 20 years that they would lose if another party bought it out of of foreclosure.

I think a lot of people just feel weird in malls any more. Not so much in the Cincinnati area, which still has three busy malls and two somewhat-traveled malls in addition to the two dead ones, but enclosed malls are really on the way out. People associate malls with this bygone era when people had tons of money and free time to kill. And there's been so much talk of dead malls over the past 10 years that it has kind of tarnished the whole concept.

I've never been to Polaris Mall (that thing is WAY up there), but apparently it's now part-mall, part-lifestyle center like Kenwood. One of the anchors closed and they turned that into the lifestyle center. Polaris was one of the last malls ever built in the U.S. Tuttle will probably conk out faster than Polaris, but it's still going to be a while.

I agree that there is something funny about malls, but I've been thinking that since I was a kid, when working at the Northgate Mall Athlete's Foot was the single most prestigious job to be had in Colerain Township. 

If you're running a shop in a busy, fully functioning mall, though, you'll be swimming in money in no time. There is no substitute for the hot mall as far as being able to open up and just sell stuff. No waiting years as your clientele slowly builds. No having to spend a ton of money on marketing and advertising. You don't even have to bother with a website if you don't want to. And one negative review on Google or Yelp won't cripple you.

 

Only you and your staff's inability to run a proper store can screw it up. Or a lack of start up cash.

Not sure if its due to it being Veteran's Day, but Big Easy Cajun and Slammin Burger in Tower Place Food Court are closed. I've not seen any news on it. Will check again tomorrow. It does look like Great Steak & Potato might be on the way out...

 

Even Gold Star is closing...

 

Big Easy and Slammin Burger are indeed closed. Now so is Sarku Japanese and Great Steak, Gold Star closes on Friday, which leaves only Chinese Combo King and Subway. Weird to see only about 20-25 people down there at noon on a Wednesday.

 

Wow. I wonder what the sudden change was.

 

May have been a serendipitous time for the city to snatch the property up. I just can't imagine what they will do with it.

Leases coming up, probably.

Unless those leases were extraordinarily long, I still wonder why now after all these years. Especially with Downtown on an upswing overall. Maybe they are the canary in the coal mine for restaurant saturation? Maybe people just don't particularly like a mall food court in an urban center, and now there are so many other options they just aren't going there? It's one thing that had weathered fairly well through all those years of decline, and now...

Probably lease-related, IMO. The city may have other plans for that space, and decided to either terminate or not renew the food court leases.

It would make sense that the non-renewal is a decision by the owner (now the city) rather than the tenants. That all of these places would suddenly be deciding their businesses are not successful enough to stay open would seem rather bizarre.

 

So maybe we should view it as a sign of progress. What could they be clearing out the space for?

>What could they be clearing out the space for?

 

Foam Dancing. 

 

>What could they be clearing out the space for?

 

Foam Dancing.

 

Perhaps this will be the new city-owned events space in lieu of the atrium.

>What could they be clearing out the space for?

 

Foam Dancing. 

 

 

Rave cave!

Beer Hall of Fame

Beer Hall of Fame

 

awesome

^

Says the guy who is a "workman" at a brewery.

Beer Hall of Fame with foam dancing.

What I have been told is that by going through foreclosure Banks could split up the garage and then the Tower Place building. The garage is incredibly profitable, while the Tower Place building currently loses money. The city was only interested in joining the effort if they could keep both properties thereby using the garage to fund Tower Place. I've also heard that this garage would stay separate from the privatization deal, and be used in large part to promote residential development of buildings around fourth Street that do not have parking.

What I have been told is that by going through foreclosure Banks could split up the garage and then the Tower Place building. The garage is incredibly profitable, while the Tower Place building currently loses money. The city was only interested in joining the effort if they could keep both properties thereby using the garage to fund Tower Place. I've also heard that this garage would stay separate from the privatization deal, and be used in large part to promote residential development of buildings around fourth Street that do not have parking.

 

So that's a good thing, right?

 

Wasn't the Beer HOF idea proposed for this space anyway?

Do you mean split ownership of the garage that is above the mall or split ownership of the mall/garage and the Pogue's garage?  Is Tower Place's mortgage and/or bonds paid off?

Split ownership of the Pogues garage, and the toweplace mall/garage building. So the two major entities would be separate. Combined, they are profitable, but separate, the mall building doesn't cover it's costs. The city owns the land under the Mall and had leased it but didn't own the garage. Through Bankruptcy company was going to try to jettison mall back to city, then auction garage. Or something similar to that.

 

If the idea truly is to use some of the Pogues garage as a master Garage for residential conversion, that is great. My source said that's definitely been talked about.

Receiver recommends sale of Tower Place to city of Cincinnati

Business Courier by Lucy May, Senior Staff Reporter

Date: Monday, December 3, 2012, 12:49pm EST - Last Modified: Monday, December 3, 2012, 1:02pm EST

 

 

A court-appointed receiver recommended the city of Cincinnati be allowed to buy the half-empty Tower Place Mall and the adjacent Pogue’s Garage downtown.

 

Mark Stanley, a vice president and principal with Cassidy Turley Commercial Real Estate, made the recommendation in an affidavit filed Nov. 30 in Hamilton County Common Pleas Court.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/12/03/receiver-recommends-sale-of-tower.html

Receiver recommends sale of Tower Place to city of Cincinnati

Business Courier by Lucy May, Senior Staff Reporter

Date: Monday, December 3, 2012, 12:49pm EST - Last Modified: Monday, December 3, 2012, 1:02pm EST

 

 

A court-appointed receiver recommended the city of Cincinnati be allowed to buy the half-empty Tower Place Mall and the adjacent Pogue’s Garage downtown.

 

Mark Stanley, a vice president and principal with Cassidy Turley Commercial Real Estate, made the recommendation in an affidavit filed Nov. 30 in Hamilton County Common Pleas Court.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/12/03/receiver-recommends-sale-of-tower.html

 

"Half-empty" is a generous statement.

 

That said, I may be in the minority but I think Tower Place Mall stands a chance if some thoughtful renovations can be made.  Opening up some of the stores to the street and focusing on the success of the food court amongst the lunch crowds would be a good start.  The food court could easily be marketed as an indoor Fountain Square of sorts.  As someone who routinely eats lunch on the Square, I find myself ducking into the Food Court when the weather is bad.

 

Whether or not retail can be a success is yet to be seen, but from what I’ve been hearing around the industry is that traditional malls are making a comeback this year, and “lifestyle centers” are hurting.  It will be interesting to see if that trends, and how that can affect the “downtown mall.”

 

It's definitely still possible for a mall to be successful.  Right in downtown Seattle there's Pacific Place mall, which is very similar to Tower Place, and still fully leased and successful. I think the key is to have high visibile anchor businesses that will always bring people in.  A movie theater is an example.  Another reason for success could be just higher downtown population.  It's also necessary to have a collection of shops that aren't available in other places.

 

 

It's definitely still possible for a mall to be successful.  Right in downtown Seattle there's Pacific Place mall, which is very similar to Tower Place, and still fully leased and successful. I think the key is to have high visibile anchor businesses that will always bring people in.  A movie theater is an example.  Another reason for success could be just higher downtown population.  It's also necessary to have a collection of shops that aren't available in other places.

 

Population IMO is the most important part for it to become successful.

According to the Downtown Seattle Association they have nearly 60k people living downtown.  If Cincinnati had the same Tower Place may be succesful as well

What is the DT population of Portland? They have a small but higher end mall downtown, Pioneer Place, that has many of the same stores as Kenwood. I would imagine there is also a larger suburban mall with additional locations of these stores.

 

Actually come to think of it, the design and layout of Pioneer Place reminds me alot of Tower Place.

 

Downtown Portland's Nordstrom drives much of their retail traffic...that store is truly a destination. I won't go on about what a different retail environment downtown Cincinnati would be if they built down there vs. at Kenwood. sigh....

from what I could find DT Portland has around 10,000 population but that was from 2000 census so I would assume it is somewhere north of that now.

Living in the Portland area now, I can tell you that Pioneer Place mall has a lot of vacancy, particularly on its upper floors, but scattered throughout the busy B-1st-2nd floors.  I am sure some of that has to do with the hit retail is taking nationally, but all the action is on the streetfront properties.  The new Target downtown is going to have a very cool street presence.

 

 

Tower Place evictions ordered

5:35 AM, Jan 10, 2013

Written by Cindi Andrews

 

Several of the few remaining Tower Place tenants confirmed Wednesday that they’re being evicted – another step toward the troubled Downtown mall’s new but yet-unknown future.

 

An art gallery, a tech startup and a tourist shop that still occupy the largely vacant mall on Fourth Street all said they’ve received letters requiring them to vacate in the next two months. It was unclear whether several other businesses, including the last two in the food court, had received notices.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130109/BIZ01/301090167/Tower-Place-evictions-ordered

Hello I have a question would you all say Tower Place Mall is worse off right now than Tower City in Cleveland? I would be surprised if it was. For those not familiar with Tower City it opened in '91 and was a former Train Station converted to a shopping center/mall. At its opening it had a D I S N E Y  Store (Then it was the only one outside of Orlando) WB store, Banana Republic, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, stores from directly Switzerland, Gap, Abercrombie (Before it was in every suburban mall), Charlotte Rouse,  Brooks Brothers (Still there) and other high end, prestigious stores.

 

Nowadays times are completely different with stores like Rainbow, Claire's, Glitter, Knock off Jewelry Stores, (For those unfamiliar with those stores they are FAAAR from high end) Footlocker, Champs, cheap suit stores, Dario Fashion Groups etc. Like I said the mall has seen MUCH better days, the mall though isn't empty as its about 90-92% leased and people still visit for the festivities inside but don't shop at the stores. Majority of the week you can hear your echo. Going back to the question how is the condition of Tower Place compared to Tower City.

^Tower City is light years ahead of Tower Place. Tower City has less vacancies than Tower Place has stores.