February 17, 20205 yr 2 hours ago, tonyt3524 said: That's a depressing image. Would you rather one of the few industries growing in this city expand out in the suburbs? I'll trade some houses for the continued growth of our great hospital/health industry.
February 17, 20205 yr Children's already tore down blocks of homes for this expansion ten years ago. But instead of expanding onto that land as planned, they tore down more of the neighborhood and the original land is still sitting empty. It's crazy. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cincinnati+Children's+Hospital+Medical+Center/@39.1413499,-84.5001377,189m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b39813aaaaab:0xf8de29b38ec4c772!8m2!3d39.1406343!4d-84.5014413
February 17, 20205 yr I"m not really upset about the loss of those houses but it does upset me to lose housing. They could've partnered with an affordable housing developer like Pennrose to build a mixed income apartment building nearby that would've replaced the lost houses and then some. I believe Children's Hospital of Philadelphia has done that in the past and actually came out ahead.
February 17, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said: Children's already tore down blocks of homes for this expansion ten years ago. But instead of expanding onto that land as planned, they tore down more of the neighborhood and the original land is still sitting empty. It's crazy. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cincinnati+Children's+Hospital+Medical+Center/@39.1413499,-84.5001377,189m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b39813aaaaab:0xf8de29b38ec4c772!8m2!3d39.1406343!4d-84.5014413 They'll build on that land sooner then later. I was just at children's touring some of their labs a couple weeks ago and they're already planning for their next two buildings.
February 17, 20205 yr 2 minutes ago, Cincy513 said: They'll build on that land sooner then later. I was just at children's touring some of their labs a couple weeks ago and they're already planning for their next two buildings. You are correct the land at Burnet and Catherine will be additional research and lab facilities for the hospital.
February 17, 20205 yr 57 minutes ago, savadams13 said: You are correct the land at Burnet and Catherine will be additional research and lab facilities for the hospital. Is that the site that is currently vacant?
February 17, 20205 yr They looked into building a 10-15 story tower right over the main drop off circle to the hospital, but it was significantly cheaper to buy the homes and expand over and through Erkenbrecher.
February 17, 20205 yr The main circle with the flags is partially built over a parking garage that was likely not built to support a large structure or whatever it was designed for is no longer what they need. The layout of Children's hospital is an absolute and total mess. I don't get how an organization with so much money was able to grow into such a wildly disorganized and unattractive campus. The new tower going up introduces a new, bizarre motif. The re-routing of Erkenbrecher is ugly. The new tower doesn't acknowledge its suburban curve or any other aspect of its context. It's just a big mean X.
February 18, 20205 yr You can be happy that a worthwhile institution is doing well and expanding, but still be critical of their running roughshod over a neighborhood with no consequences. The snarky sarcastic comments above are the kind of bottom-feeding platitudes I'd expect out of Fox News, not a forum of supposedly urban-minded citizens. That photo is a classic example of scale incompatibility and anti-contextualism. And for all the trouble, there's still vacant lots and hideous overhead utilities. Why is there no room for civic engagement here?
February 18, 20205 yr 32 minutes ago, jjakucyk said: You can be happy that a worthwhile institution is doing well and expanding, but still be critical of their running roughshod over a neighborhood with no consequences. The snarky sarcastic comments above are the kind of bottom-feeding platitudes I'd expect out of Fox News, not a forum of supposedly urban-minded citizens. That photo is a classic example of scale incompatibility and anti-contextualism. And for all the trouble, there's still vacant lots and hideous overhead utilities. Why is there no room for civic engagement here? I think the issue is that being totally objective the architecture does look out of place, but it’s hard to discuss this project objectively, when most of its detractors were basically against its right to be built at all. Totally reasonable if you just objected to the appearance and design, but thinking back to its conception, many of the most vocal detractors seemed to have completely unfounded criticism, so when people hear others trash the hospital expansion, the immediate reaction is to assume the person complaining came from this group. Also it does make a huge difference that Children’s Hospital is one of the best employers and most altruistic organizations in the region, so if anyone should be given a little leeway to make some sh*tty design choices with their development it would be them.
February 18, 20205 yr 13 hours ago, Guy23 said: I think the issue is that being totally objective the architecture does look out of place, but it’s hard to discuss this project objectively, when most of its detractors were basically against its right to be built at all. Totally reasonable if you just objected to the appearance and design, but thinking back to its conception, many of the most vocal detractors seemed to have completely unfounded criticism, so when people hear others trash the hospital expansion, the immediate reaction is to assume the person complaining came from this group. Also it does make a huge difference that Children’s Hospital is one of the best employers and most altruistic organizations in the region, so if anyone should be given a little leeway to make some sh*tty design choices with their development it would be them. They're also one of the wealthiest institutions in the region... and so it's reasonable to expect better than "sh*tty design choices" from them. I agree with the point made by @jjakucyk ... we should be able to point out how the design could be improved, and folks on this forum should be able to hear design criticism without leaping to an argument like "HoW CAN YoU BE OppOseD TO A CHiLDReN's HoSPiTaL??!?!?!"
February 18, 20205 yr Every single hospital in Cincinnati is a mess of multiple expansions over 100 years, other than Mercy West that just decided to shut down and move out to a distant suburb.
February 18, 20205 yr That's why it's complicated because if the choice is a big addition in a complex disjointed campus, or closing shop and moving to the suburbs; then I'd rather have big ugly complexes in Uptown.
February 18, 20205 yr Mercy West shouldn't be the comparison, and that implies a false-dichotomy. Cincinnati Children's has plenty of space to expand in Avondale. Cincinnati Children's benchmarks themselves against the other top children's hospitals in the country, like Boston Children's (#1) and CHOP (#2) and Texas Children's (tied for #3 with Cincinnati). Boston Children's is very space constrained (probably the most so of the other top children's hospitals). In 2014, they built the 10-story James Mandell Building (streetview) which is built right up to the street. In 2015, CHOP built a 12-story tower for advanced care, and it does a much better job of "meeting the street" (streetview). Texas Children's recently built their 25-story Legacy Tower, which is also more integrated with the surrounding streets. Perhaps because Cincinnati Children's is much less space-constrained than any of the other top-5 children's hospitals, they don't feel the need to have an "urban" approach to their site plan. But I think that's a missed opportunity to create a sense of place around the hospital, especially along Burnet. Edited February 18, 20205 yr by jwulsin
February 18, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, nicker66 said: Every single hospital in Cincinnati is a mess of multiple expansions over 100 years, other than Mercy West that just decided to shut down and move out to a distant suburb. one minor quibble- the new Mercy West Hospital isn’t in a distant suburb, it’s less than a mile outside the city limits www.cincinnatiideas.com
February 18, 20205 yr 1 hour ago, jwulsin said: Mercy West shouldn't be the comparison, and that implies a false-dichotomy. Cincinnati Children's has plenty of space to expand in Avondale. Cincinnati Children's benchmarks themselves against the other top children's hospitals in the country, like Boston Children's (#1) and CHOP (#2) and Texas Children's (tied for #3 with Cincinnati). Boston Children's is very space constrained (probably the most so of the other top children's hospitals). In 2014, they built the 10-story James Mandell Building (streetview) which is built right up to the street. In 2015, CHOP built a 12-story tower for advanced care, and it does a much better job of "meeting the street" (streetview). Texas Children's recently built their 25-story Legacy Tower, which is also more integrated with the surrounding streets. Perhaps because Cincinnati Children's is much less space-constrained than any of the other top-5 children's hospitals, they don't feel the need to have an "urban" approach to their site plan. But I think that's a missed opportunity to create a sense of place around the hospital, especially along Burnet. All of those are better than what Cincinnati Children's is building right now. What's weird is that the new research towers (Areas T and S, I believe) are each nice buildings, but they're hidden in the middle of the complex along Albert B. Sabin. It's almost as if Children's thinks Albert B. Sabin is its face, even though it's tucked into the middle of the various hospitals. What's also hilarious is that when the Ronald McDonald House moved from the south side of Erkenbrecher closer to the zoo to its current location on the north side of Erkenbrecher, it's pretty obvious that Children's never thought it would expand north. Otherwise they would have never given the Ronald McDonald House that prime piece of land.
February 18, 20205 yr Deaconess being demolished and Good Samaritan getting rid of it's cardiac unit and moving it to Bethesda in Montgomery are other examples of the healthcare industry chasing the bottom line to the suburbs. I'm not saying that if the city pushed harder against Children's they would start to relocate services to their Liberty Township campus, but it's not impossible either. It sucks that they destroyed the street grid and didn't make this expansion contextual AT ALL, but I don't know I guess it just doesn't bother me in this case.
February 18, 20205 yr 2 hours ago, ucgrady said: Deaconess being demolished and Good Samaritan getting rid of it's cardiac unit and moving it to Bethesda in Montgomery are other examples of the healthcare industry chasing the bottom line to the suburbs. I'm not saying that if the city pushed harder against Children's they would start to relocate services to their Liberty Township campus, but it's not impossible either. It sucks that they destroyed the street grid and didn't make this expansion contextual AT ALL, but I don't know I guess it just doesn't bother me in this case. If you have old relatives who need constant rides to appointments, you know that they formed their preferences for one office or hospital over another based on how "easy" it was to get "in and out of" even though now they're calling you to drive them there all the time. When you're ill you don't want to deal with any wayfinding hassles and as we all know these city hospitals all have byzantine layouts. Also, the specialists travel around the city every week. They're at X office on M and F and at Y office on T and TH. On W they're in surgery. The construction of duplicative offices is one of the most insane symptoms of auto-oriented sprawl. Probably the single craziest thing is that giant sign at the Cincinnati Eye Institute in Blue Ash that directs traffic to I-71. So what are all of these people with impaired vision looking at once they turn out of the place?
February 19, 20205 yr On 2/17/2020 at 7:00 PM, jjakucyk said: You can be happy that a worthwhile institution is doing well and expanding, but still be critical of their running roughshod over a neighborhood with no consequences. The snarky sarcastic comments above are the kind of bottom-feeding platitudes I'd expect out of Fox News, not a forum of supposedly urban-minded citizens. That photo is a classic example of scale incompatibility and anti-contextualism. And for all the trouble, there's still vacant lots and hideous overhead utilities. Why is there no room for civic engagement here? Yeah clearly my comment backfired. I have no problems with the expansion, it just looks depressing as hell to see what it's taking over. Hell, my wife worked at UC Health for years, it's great to see them succeeding and expanding. I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on. Edited February 19, 20205 yr by tonyt3524
February 19, 20205 yr 24 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said: Yeah clearly my comment backfired. I have no problems with the expansion, it just looks depressing as hell to see what it's taking over. Hell, my wife worked at UC Health for years, it's great to see them succeeding and expanding. I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on. nothing wrong with having a differing opinion, it actually created an interesting discussion Edited February 19, 20205 yr by seaswan
March 2, 20205 yr Reds make return visit for latest neighborhood makeover The Cincinnati Reds are planning a return visit for their latest neighborhood makeover. Avondale will be the recipient of the 2020 Community Makeover, sponsored by the Reds, Procter & Gamble Co., Cincinnati Children’s Hospital and the Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Garden. Avondale also received a makeover in 2013. Now in its 11th year, this year’s makeover will be the most ambitious to date with six project zones at the following Avondale sites... ...here: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/03/02/reds-make-return-visit-for-latest-neighborhood.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
March 10, 20205 yr ArtWorks' first project of 2020 will light up this Cincinnati neighborhood ArtWorks’ first project of 2020 will feature a series of light-based installations aimed at enhancing neighborhood safety and celebrating cultural heritage. Artists Calcagno Cullen and Matthew Grote have been selected by an Avondale public art steering committee to create Switch On Avondale, a series of interactive public art installations along the new walking and bike trail behind the renovated Hirsch Recreation Center on Reading Road. The project is funded in part by the National Endowment for the Arts. “This work of creating more public art in Avondale is so important,” April Gallelli, Avondale Development Corp. community organizer, said in a news release. “The residents want more art that is reflective of our community’s rich culture and values, and we’re thrilled that a national funder is investing in this work. We look forward to what these artists partnering with the Avondale community will bring to life.” More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/03/10/artworks-first-project-of-2020-will-light.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 3, 20205 yr Was not able to get a photo, but there is a crane up for the UC digital futures building.
May 27, 20205 yr Minority development firm, ADC land tax credit for $13.5M residential project Avondale Development Corp., in partnership with Kingsley + Co. and Fairfield Homes Inc., have been awarded $1 million in 10-year federal housing tax credits from the Ohio Housing Finance Agency for an affordable housing project in Avondale. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/05/27/minority-firm-adc-land-tax-credit-for-135-resident.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 28, 20204 yr Uptown's green space corridor advances, thanks to grant Funding from the grant will allow the consortium, along with design and planning firm Sasaki, to move forward into the next phase of the project’s continued planning efforts. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/07/28/ecological-corridor-receives-duke-energy-grant.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 28, 20204 yr 15 minutes ago, Dev said: Have all the people been forced out of the remaining homes north of MLK? Just about. Between the MLK and Dixmyth widenings between I-75 and Clifton and then the new I-71 interchange, the city lost hundreds of housing units - at least 500 residents. A tower crane is up south of MLK for Phase 1.
July 28, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said: Just about. Between the MLK and Dixmyth widenings between I-75 and Clifton and then the new I-71 interchange, the city lost hundreds of housing units - at least 500 residents. A tower crane is up south of MLK for Phase 1. This will be the Node development correct? I’m uber excited about this part as it looks to be a hotel of 5-8 stories, a office building of 5-8 floors and residential that is anywhere from 5-16. Fingers crossed for some taller buildings to make the development more visually appealing than a whole bunch of 5 story buildings.
July 28, 20204 yr 11 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said: This will be the Node development correct? I’m uber excited about this part as it looks to be a hotel of 5-8 stories, a office building of 5-8 floors and residential that is anywhere from 5-16. Fingers crossed for some taller buildings to make the development more visually appealing than a whole bunch of 5 story buildings. It's "Innovation Park South" per the above diagram. I just noticed that this defiant real estate holdout appears to be holding out in the diagram: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1344121,-84.4993189,3a,15y,106.84h,93.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su5bRNO8hqfY_Om3fKzhgZg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 That's like 30+ years of holding out and they aren't slowing down anytime soon.
July 29, 20204 yr 2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said: That's like 30+ years of holding out and they aren't slowing down anytime soon. Correction: the property is now under the auspices of a certain "Uptown Transportation Authority, LLC", who bought it in 2018 as part of a $3.5 million package from "MLK Realty, LLC", who bought it out of small-time ownership in 2004. Maybe they have held out on tearing it down just to fake out urbanist bloggers.
July 29, 20204 yr Are they not going to make room for Wasson Way West in this development? Seems like the creek is a good ROW for the trail to continue right through the development and tie into the MLK mixed use path. EDIT: On second glance, it looks like the translucent maroon line in the Uptown rendering would be a mixed-use path. Edited July 29, 20204 yr by 10albersa
July 29, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, 10albersa said: Are they not going to make room for Wasson Way West in this development? Cranley and Jay Andress are for whatever permanently blocks use of these ideal light rail ROW's for light rail.
July 31, 20204 yr Is it too much to expect the multi-use trail to go through a tunnel under MLK from what exists today as Borrman Ave to Bathgate St?
July 31, 20204 yr 25 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said: Is it too much to expect the multi-use trail to go through a tunnel under MLK from what exists today as Borrman Ave to Bathgate St? Until the bridge was rebuilt, there was a "Texas Turnaround" that enabled people to walk, bike, or drive from the homes south of MLK to the ones north of MLK. The railroad bridge over I-71 (which was built in 1966 and only used by trains for two years before the line was abandoned) was dismantled around 2016. The corridor south of that bridge isn't useful for transit but we allowed it to be sold off to the Frisch's Commissary and other small players. Meanwhile, the Wasson Way tracks, which WERE of use to transit and in fact were studied and eyeballed for that purpose by OKI for 30+ years, were allowed under Cranley to be turned into a transit-blocking bike trail.
July 31, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, Chas Wiederhold said: Is it too much to expect the multi-use trail to go through a tunnel under MLK from what exists today as Borrman Ave to Bathgate St? I thought there was a plan for the multi use path to extend westward on the north side of MLK- I can’t remember exactly where I saw this, though? What you describe would be a pretty good connection, would have been good to incorporate into the original interchange project. www.cincinnatiideas.com
July 31, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, thebillshark said: I thought there was a plan for the multi use path to extend westward on the north side of MLK- I can’t remember exactly where I saw this, though? Yes there are vague plans to do this but they didn't appear in this most recent rendering. 1 hour ago, thebillshark said: What you describe would be a pretty good connection, would have been good to incorporate into the original interchange project. If Roxanne Qualls had been elected back in 2013 a lot of this would already physically exist, plus the Wasson Way trail would have been built expressly to enable the construction of light rail next to it. Instead, the trail goes right through the wide parts of the ROW (and some parts of the ROW are as much as 90 feet wide, from what I recall) so that we get Maximum Conflict when and if light rail takes flight.
July 31, 20204 yr 4 hours ago, jmecklenborg said: Instead, the trail goes right through the wide parts of the ROW (and some parts of the ROW are as much as 90 feet wide, from what I recall) so that we get Maximum Conflict when and if light rail takes flight. At this point just build a tunnel for rail underneath it and avoid all the at grade surface street conflicts as well! www.cincinnatiideas.com
July 31, 20204 yr 29 minutes ago, thebillshark said: At this point just build a tunnel for rail underneath it and avoid all the at grade surface street conflicts as well! Yes I've had that idea myself. There are a few examples on the Washington Metro where a line is in a tunnel but the station is in a cut. That way all of the expenses of elevators, escalators, etc. are avoided. I believe the St. Louis metrolink does this once near Forest Park, also.
August 13, 20204 yr Cincinnati City Council members back $500,000 deal for Avondale grocer Cincinnati City Council members gave initial approval Wednesday to a plan to contribute $500,000 in gap financing to a $4.3 million grocery store project in Avondale, which will be run by a Findlay Market vendor. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/08/13/council-backs-grocery-money.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 13, 20204 yr ^I really want this market to succeed. But operating a grocery store is extremely difficult, with thin margins. The funding to get it up and running is one thing, but what will ensure it remains well-stocked? Clifton Market wasn't able to succeed as a co-op (seems to be doing better now under new management), despite having a more affluent customer base. I'm not opposed to the City using subsidies to support Avondale, but I'm just nervous about how this will be sustained over the coming years.
August 13, 20204 yr 5 minutes ago, jwulsin said: ^I really want this market to succeed. But operating a grocery store is extremely difficult, with thin margins. The funding to get it up and running is one thing, but what will ensure it remains well-stocked? Clifton Market wasn't able to succeed as a co-op (seems to be doing better now under new management), despite having a more affluent customer base. I'm not opposed to the City using subsidies to support Avondale, but I'm just nervous about how this will be sustained over the coming years. Agreed- also seems like a red flag that it’s being managed by an operator that has no experience in running a supermarket, which is a notoriously challenging business to run. Reminds me a little of the EMC near Findlay Market, which closed down after a year or two and never came close to turning a profit. It seems like there’s a good chance that this market never turns a profit, and does the city have the contingency plan of funding its operating budget for the foreseeable future?
August 13, 20204 yr There's no grocery store in Avondale but the Kroger in Corryville is a couple blocks outside of Avondale, the Kroger on Kenard isn't much further from Avondale, and the Kroger in Norwood isn't much further than that. Also, there was an Aldi in this same location until just a few years ago. It seems like they weren't able to be profitable.
August 13, 20204 yr 41 minutes ago, Ram23 said: There's no grocery store in Avondale but the Kroger in Corryville is a couple blocks outside of Avondale, the Kroger on Kenard isn't much further from Avondale, and the Kroger in Norwood isn't much further than that. Also, there was an Aldi in this same location until just a few years ago. It seems like they weren't able to be profitable. Those grocery stores are all easily accessible only if you have a car, which many Avondale residents lack. Even an efficient bus system- which we don’t have yet- is no substitute for being able to walk to a grocery store for low income residents in a food desert. A grocery store in central Avondale will definitely be a huge boost for residents of one of the city’s poorest neighborhoods, it just comes with the huge risk of failing and being an issue the city has to deal with long term. Still I do think it’s a problem that should be solved. I don’t know what the best solution is but I don’t know if it’s the one the city is choosing.
August 13, 20204 yr I wonder if a better solution might be to encourage smaller convenience stores throughout the neighborhood to carry a better selection of grocery items, fresh produce, meat, etc., or if there are things we can learn from other cities that have tried to solve the food desert problem. I don't like the idea that Kroger and other grocers can just abandon these neighborhoods and the city is expected to step in and operate a grocery store like it's a public utility. And even relatively affluent neighborhoods like Clifton and Northside have struggled to get co-op based grocery stores off the ground, so I don't think that will work either.
August 13, 20204 yr If food deserts were easy to solve, we wouldn't have food deserts. Not every neighborhood can have a huge grocery store that meets all of your needs. Some people are going to have to travel to grocery stores. The problem with trying to get multiple existing stores to start selling fresh produce, meat, etc, is that the prices will be a lot higher than they would be at a superstore. Are people going to take the time to visit multiple locations to get all of their shopping done AND spend more to get all of their needs? Some may do it, but not enough to allow these stores to do this without either a subsidy or bad products.
August 13, 20204 yr 50 minutes ago, taestell said: I wonder if a better solution might be to encourage smaller convenience stores throughout the neighborhood to carry a better selection of grocery items, fresh produce, meat, etc., or if there are things we can learn from other cities that have tried to solve the food desert problem. I don't like the idea that Kroger and other grocers can just abandon these neighborhoods and the city is expected to step in and operate a grocery store like it's a public utility. And even relatively affluent neighborhoods like Clifton and Northside have struggled to get co-op based grocery stores off the ground, so I don't think that will work either. I generally agree but also think it’s tough to blame a corporation for closing a store that loses it money every year. Kroger operates on thin margins and is competing with Amazon and Wal-Mart. They’re not a nonprofit and I think it’s reasonable that they only run stores that make money. Still, you’d think they could maybe show some love for their hometown and make at least one exception to help out the community.
August 13, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, ryanlammi said: If food deserts were easy to solve, we wouldn't have food deserts. Not every neighborhood can have a huge grocery store that meets all of your needs. Some people are going to have to travel to grocery stores. The problem with trying to get multiple existing stores to start selling fresh produce, meat, etc, is that the prices will be a lot higher than they would be at a superstore. Are people going to take the time to visit multiple locations to get all of their shopping done AND spend more to get all of their needs? Some may do it, but not enough to allow these stores to do this without either a subsidy or bad products. Exactly, Kroger locks prices to the region so they can only charge what their big stores charge. There's a good reason for that, but it comes at the expense of their smaller stores. And they finally had to give up on some smaller towns with really old small stores, such as Wellston, since they couldn't make the numbers work with locked prices.
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