This is a subject that comes up here and there, and since there are a fair number of suburban people on this forum, I thought I'd ask the question.  There never seems to be a consensus on what kinds of things would attract people downtown.  Not that a consensus will be reached here either, but it would be interesting to see opinions.

 

So, to the suburbanites: What would make you go downtown with some frequency?  And what already does bring you downtown?  How often do you go downtown?  No need to follow my template below, and I would be interested to hear particular examples from various cities, too.

 

As someone from suburban Dayton (although I don't really live there anymore), I'll answer by running through a list of hypothetical "attractions":

• Shopping - probably would not bring me downtown no matter if it were unique or not, perhaps with the exception of the Christmas shopping season
  
• Dining - probably would go downtown for dining once in a while with other people, but finding special places to eat really does not interest me, so this is not a big draw for me
  
• Museums - yes, these would bring me downtown, although not all that often unless there were a lot of them, as I don't usually visit a particular museum over and over again in short periods of time
  
• Theater - not that I'm much of a theatergoer, but on occasion I'd go downtown for theater, especially since it's usually the only place for it
  
• Special events (festivals, etc.) - Most definitely!
  
• Parks and recreation - they'd probably draw me downtown once in a while, especially if the parks were particularly pretty or offered some unique types of recreation
  
• Landmarks - Mainly these would be things to show visitors
  

 

Then there's the miscellanea that are difficult to categorize, some of which would probably attract me and some of which would not.  (I can't think of specific examples off the top of my head.)  Probably the thing that brings me downtown most is simply an interest in urban environments and a desire to take photos, which is something lots of us here share but which also makes us a pretty small subset of the population.  It's hard to talk about how often I do go downtown because I'm not in the Dayton area all that often anymore, but I'll just estimate that I probably go downtown once every time I'm back home.  Madison, where I already live downtown, is a different case because it's a big college town, but I do want to mention one thing.  Something thing I am impressed with here is the weekly farmers' market, held every Saturday on the Capitol Square from spring through fall.  Granted, half the people who come to it are probably college students who live in the neighborhood, but still, this thing every week attracts a larger crowd than I have ever seen in some of Ohio's downtowns apart from annual events.

 

Of course, we could debate how much emphasis should be placed on bringing in outsiders as opposed to nearby residents, but that's for another discussion.  I assume we can all at least agree that it is good to have things that attract people from the "outer city."  So what thoughts do the other suburbanites here have?

I live in Lakewood, which is about as urban as suburban can get. But I guess my address qualifies me as a suburbanite, even though I live three blocks from the Cleveland city limits.

 

Things that draw me downtown are meetings and festivals. Which, if you think about it, that's been a notable function of the hearts of cities for hundreds, if not thousands of years. While I'm downtown, I often do a little bit of shopping and walking around. Problem is, in some of the areas I visit for meetings, there is very little mixed use (read all retail, but especially niche retail that doesn't exist in the 'burbs) along the sidewalks for me to browse. So I often end up heading straight for the car, bus or rapid for the ride back out.

Great idea for a thread...

 

I'm in the city now, but grew up in a far suburbs of Cleveland (Hinckley), so maybe I count a little!  I'd add a category to your list:

Visiting friends/relatives

 

I'd say that was my #1 draw to the city, followed by seeing the Indians.  As for the rest of your list - but answering what did draw me (and my family) downtown, not what would today:

 

Shopping - never...I didn't shop much, and when I did it was the nearby malls.

Dining - I didn't then, since I didn't have any money (though now my parents and my wife and I go somewhere nice in the city when we come to town).

Museums - Very infrequently.  I spent most of my Art Museum time when I went to Case.

Theater - More the orchestra, but again, rather infrequently.

Special events (festivals, etc.) - We never really went to these - if we did, they were Medina County events.

Parks and recreation - No, only to local parks.

Landmarks - Nope.

I live and work in the suburbs, and if I wasn't gay and a music/arts fan I wouldn't have any reason to go downtown.  So maybe not a fair question to me.

 

What originally drew me downtown where the gay bars and the downtown library.  What draws me now to downtown Dayton are live music at str8 bars and in the summer at festivals, and the various performing arts events. 

 

Secondary draw is restaurants.

 

I've been in Dayton long enough to remember shopping downtown, at Lazarus, Elder Beerman, Walkers, and DL Peer.  Now about all thats left thats of interest to me is General Suprlus.

 

 

    Please allow me to be bold here.

 

    I just got back from a suburban shopping area. Unfortunately, it is a sea of parking lots and I spent a lot of time sitting in traffic. I made two stops: a gym and a furniture store.

 

    The suburban shopping area is doing well. There is lots of traffic everywhere, the stores are all occupied, and people seem to be happy generally. There is all kinds of activity going on, from retail to fast food to mid-price restaurants and just about anything else you can think of. Why can't downtown be like that? Or, conversly, what is it about the suburbs that the urbanists on this board hate so much?

 

    This is a simplification, but it is all about the cars. Downtown simply doesn't have the parking to compete with the suburbs. Once upon a time, people lived downtown, and walked. In another era, they rode the streetcar. Nowadays, people can't even get out of their own subdivisions without driving.

 

    There are a few reasons why downtowns survive at all:

    1. Pure momentum. Some businesses never left, in particular government offices, which in turn retained the law offices and banks.

    2. The streetcar system survived, albeit on a smaller scale with a government subsidy and in the form of busses, making it practical for at least some people to follow the old streetcar model.

    3. Large companies that want a large office building find a solution in the skyscraper, which can only be built downtown, in part due to available fire protection, and also to be included in postcard views.

   

    Other than those general reasons, there really is no reason for anyone to go downtown in the automobile age.

 

      Planners have tried to "attract" more people downtown by building convention centers, stadiums, etc., but the required parking only transformed part of downtown into suburbia.

 

      I went to Wal-mart one night (I know, I know, but it was the only thing open at 11:00 p.m.!) and marvelled at how many people there were. If only downtown businesses had that much vitality!

 

      In my humble opinion, festivals, upscale shopping, art musuems, and so on have their place downtown, and the architecture is an attraction too. But, how can I say this without offending people? What downtown needs is a Wal-mart, fast-food, residences, a grocery store, hardware store, movie theatres, lots of housing, good schools, and every thing else that is found in the suburbs, and it all needs to be accessible without cars. Is that possible? I don't know. But what I DON'T see downtown needing is more museums, upscale shopping, convention centers, theatres, etc. Downtown already has those things, and they are not working.

 

      I don't like the downtown vs. the suburbs mentality. The bottom line is that people go where the transportation is. If people have to drive just to get out of their own subdivision, then they are going to need a place to park at the other end. It's all about the cars. Downtown already has a lot of parking. Adding more parking to downtown will just make it more suburban. I don't know if there is a solution.

 

    That said, downtowns are not as bad as they are made out to be, and the suburbs aren't that bad either. It's just frustrating to be sitting in traffic surrounded by a sea of parking lots when I would rather be window-shopping downtown on my way home from work. Walking cities are more comfortable and interesting than driving cities.

 

    Sorry about the rant. Thanks for reading.

Other than those general reasons, there really is no reason for anyone to go downtown in the automobile age.

 

Unless they're going to work, home, a convention, festival, game, unique shopping and restaurants, wedding reception at a hotel or banquet hall, carriage ride, etc., etc.  It is not the most compelling retail destination, but the appeal of downtown persists in many other ways.

 

I went to Wal-mart one night (I know, I know, but it was the only thing open at 11:00 p.m.!)

 

Meijer is open 24 hours.

 

and marvelled at how many people there were.

 

Sadly there are people who go there in the absence of dire need.  "Wal-Mart, the downtown of the 21st century."  I'll stay in the real one.

Actually the architecture thing, the feeling of being "downtown", is what draws me to a place like downtown Cincinnati.  I know I have to park there, but its worth it for the frisson of being in a dense urban environment...and that there is enough stores there to go "shopping" of one type or another.  One doesn't quite get this in Dayton, or perhaps Columbus, so those downtowns are less appealing to me as "destinations".

 

 

If you think about it though the Walmarts and Targets of the world are more like the downtown Department stores everyone remembers, than the actual department stores! Downtowns need ample parking moreso in metros with no significant mass transit. Think, Why do people go to Manhattan in NYC? or Downtown Chicago. I think its because of the mix of culture available and shopping. The shopping districts in those cities are attractions in and of thmselves. So I think downtowns need cheap and and ample parking, shopping that is unlike anything in the suburbs along with the other cultural attractions that are usually seen in downtowns.

 

I've been in Dayton long enough to remember shopping downtown, at Lazarus, Elder Beerman, Walkers, and DL Peer.  Now about all thats left thats of interest to me is General Suprlus.

 

 

Ditto.  I don't even think it's called General Surplus anylonger.  I think it's GS Outfitters or something.  I actually miss White Tower, the Diner, and Charley's Seafood (under Courthouse Square).  AND I remember when the Fifth Third Tower and One Dayton Center went up and the former was called Citizen Federal.  Oy, the days...

General Surplus is probably the only store I've ever shopped at in downtown Dayton.  And the last time I was there was probably about eight years ago, when I bought the West German army coat that I still wear today.

 

AND I remember when the Fifth Third Tower and One Dayton Center went up and the former was called Citizen Federal.  Oy, the days...

Was little 7-year-old ColDayBoy out there taking pictures of the construction? :-)

Actually, just with my little Kodak disposable, yes.

 

The first photo I ever took was of the Back Bay in Boston at age 5.  Top that, Piglet.

Hey, there's no contest.  I knew you were born for this stuff. :-)

Too many things for me to list, but among them; convenience (ideally),  less dependence on a car, being able to actually just walk somewhere, good restaurants, places to hangout and socialize aside from a church, and being able to stumble home after going out and not having to rely on a designated driver and biggest of all, affordable housing.  :-D

FREEE PARKING

 

Shopping - No. The only reason to go downtown to shop is to get something that can't be gotten anywhere else in the burbs, that simply isnt the case for me (that I can think of).

 

Dinning - Hell Yes. Only homogonized chain food crap in the burbs. The ethnic foods restraunts really don't exsist in the burbs, nor do alot of the upscale restraunts that have a specific nitche to them. There is a few upscale niches, and a few ethnic foods that they do good with. I can get some good chineese and mexican, but i cant get vietnamese or greek. I can get a decent corned beef sandwich, but its no slymans. Bars is 50/50, WHD I can go without, but places that have specialty beer I like, and I will drive further for a unique good beer.

 

Museum - A good excuse to go, but I never do. Can't say why really, its not like I hate art or anything. I do however go to the zoo at least once a year.

 

Theatre - Infrequently. Rarely is there something I want to see, and when I heard it came or was comming, I just never mannage to get off my ass and see it, maybe more a $$ thing if anything.

 

Special events - St. Patricks day parade. Um yeah I need more parades to get drunk and beligerant at. I fully support a chineese new year celebration in cleveland. Air show is meh, as is ribb cookoff.

 

Parks - One of these days I'll bike the whole towpath trail when its done, all other parks stuff is local.

 

Landmarks - only to out of towners, and most of the out of towners have seen cleveland stuff by now. Its much easier to wine and dine them.

FREEE PARKING

 

Good idea. Let's devastate the city and subsidize the automobile even more. Better idea: read the book "The High Cost of Free Parking" by Donald Shoup. A must for anyone interested in the vitality of cities AND suburbs. Go to: http://www.planning.org/bookservice/highcost.htm

Yeah, I know, I ment as a joke, messagboards rarely communicate sarcasm well

 

Currently, I am in the process of moving to the Berwick area of Columbus.  Initially upon my relocation to Columbus, I lived in the suburb of Hilliard.  Hilliard is ok.  However, it is painfully boring and I miss seeing people terribly.  I can say that after this experience, I have completely and utterly abandoned the idea of suburban living.  I want no parts of it ever again. 

 

Overall, I am very satisfied with downtown Columbus and I see the city getting better and better daily.  At first, I was unsure about Columbus.  However, the city continues to grow on me.  If the shopping options at Easton were a part of downtown Columbus (and not that God-awful city center crapola), I would be in hog heaven.  Honestly, I don't particularly care for Easton or any warped attempt at creating a "downtown, urban-esque shopping experience."  What will happen to the New Albany area once the newness and novelty of Easton wears off?  I hate trying to manuever that doggoned place or any of the other malls around Columbus.  Ugh!  I want street-level, store front shopping options downtown now!!!!  (LOL)

 

It would be much more convenient and pleasant if I could just walk into a real (not contrived) urban storefront, make my purchase, and go about my merry way.  I'm not asking for much.  Easton is so darned overwhelming.  I choose to just stay away.  I refuse to spend so much empty time pretending that I am having some  type of  urban "experience" when in reality, it is nothing short of an actual friggin' headache. 

 

Also, I am tired of driving everywhere.  I don't want a car--period.  Yet, I feel as though car ownership is forced upon me simply because of where I choose to live.  I should be able to live in Columbus with the option to have a car or to not have a car (and please don't don't mention COTA to me...I will literally scream).  If there was anyway that I could get away without having a car, I would chunk mine in a heartbeat.  Right now, I feel that I am at the mercy of a lifestyle that I do not want at all.  However, what are my actual options (and I am not moving to NYC, Chicago, Boston, LA, Phoenix, or any other city for that matter...Columbus is it for me). 

 

Rather than going to the myriad of crappy chain restaurants that dot the suburban landscape in metro-Columbus, I have found some little seedy "hole in the wall" restaurants that actually have great food.  Only problem, I have to drive to them as they are scattered about everywhere.  It would be so nice for these eclectic restaurants to be downtown rather than having two Wendy's  on Broad Street...yuck! 

 

Bottom line, I know that there are certain services that I will be giving up by relocating to an inner-city neighborhood.  However, I am looking forward to feeling as though I am actually a part of the city and I will be able to completely revolve my life around living within the city limits.  Yes the clothing, transportation, and restaurant options suck for now...oh well.     

A difference between parking downtown & at a mall is that  you may not be able to see your destination  from the parking lot downtown whereas you probably can at the mall (you might need binoculars).

I think people are a little scared of going downtown & having to find things "ala carte".

Not exactly sure how this could be overcome. maps would be nice. They would have to be updated all the time. They have these at malls but they are paid for by the mall association.

As far as landmarks, how many times do you visit landmarks with outof town visitors that you never go to on your own ?

:-)

It would be nice if downtowns had better (safer) parking facilities for bicycles. But i say that not a s a suburbanite.

As was previously mentioned, suburbanites have  to drive just to leave the house.

I actually miss White Tower, the Diner, and Charley's Seafood (under Courthouse Square). 

 

Ah..you probably remember when Charlies was in the Arcade, too.

 

They had the restaurant upstairs and the " bar/sandwich shop" downstairs.  I used to like going to the bar and have a beer or iced tea and a BLT and sit down in their 'sidewalk cafe" under the arcade dome, watching the foot traffic.

 

Wilkies was still open then and they had such an excellent newspaper and unsual magazine section (not just their porn section, but lots of unsual specialty mags, including foreign things), so I'd pick up the Villiage Voice or I-D (the UK fashion mag) or something similar and head to Charlies and camp out a bit reading and having a beer and burger.  Back then there was a Lerners, Arcade Seafood, and McCrorys at the dome, plus the food court in the "pit", plus a jewlrey store and a luggage shop and FedEx place in the arcade proper...so the place wasn't totally empty...and it was sort of a cross-block/mid-block pedestrian route.

 

This was around 1990 and 89 or so.  Too bad the place missed the coffeehouse trend, as the Charilies bar location would have been great for a sidewalk cafe/coffeehouse thing. 

 

@@@@

 

Interesting that for me, rereading what I wrote. it was sort of a novelty thing...getting an experience one can't really get in a suburban environment.

 

 

Atmosphere.

 

Honestly, what draws me are places to just hang out and talk to friends or read for awhile...bookstores and coffeeshops, mainly. And restaurants that are open past 6. I want to experience the aura of downtown without having to spend the money to go to a play or concert or expensive dinner (though I will do that occasionally).

But, how can I say this without offending people? What downtown needs is a Wal-mart, fast-food, residences, a grocery store, hardware store, movie theatres, lots of housing, good schools, and every thing else that is found in the suburbs, and it all needs to be accessible without cars. Is that possible?

 

Here's what I've got within a 5-10 minute walk (off the top of my head)...

Kroger, 10+ fast food restaurants, 10+ sit down restaurants, 10+ bars, a Blockbuster, a book store, 2 Starbucks, a shopping mall, a tanning salon, 8-10 salons, a handfull of dentists and doctors, 3 banks, 80+ lawyers (not a typo), a thrift store, 2 gas stations, and much more.

 

Within a 10 minute drive, I'm closer than any suburban (who doesn't live in Easton Commons) to everything else on your list.

 

I see the sticking point for many suburbanites as being 1) schools, and 2) a big yard.  And there are solutions to both (private schools and public parks).

Anything that I can't do in the suburbs.  Eat at the HOB, visit the science center go to sporting events etc.  Why would a Fridays, Gap Store etc work in Ohio's downtowns.  They wouldn't.  DT Chicago, New York don't necessarily thrive off of tourists, most importantly they thrive off of a critical mass.  Hundreds of thousand call those downtowns home.  Imagine throwing the population of Strongsville, North Royalton and Brunswick downtown.  Then you would have everything dt that you have along rt 82 and Pearl rds.  It's really simple, residents support downtowns.  I don't drive 20 minutes to go shopping dt nor do I drive 20 minutes to go shopping in Strongsville.  I shop at our local shopping centers five minutes from my house.  It's not that I don't shop dt because it's dt.  In other words, it is just convincing the pioneers to move there before there is any reason yet.  Once you get that critical mass, then it all dominos.  "Fun commercial stuff" starts moving in down there which cause people to move down there.  The million dollar question is, how do we knock the first domino down? 

Easier parking and less homeless guys on the street.

Someone said downtown Cincinnati is more appealing than Columbus or Dayton, thats related to what I was saying about Cincinnati being harder to find a parking space.  Cincinnati's downtown feels more like a downtown.  Columbus is a newer city, everything is more open and spacious.  Look at newer cities and you'll realize their downtowns are a lot more sprawled out because they were developed at a time when cars were already becoming popular so that space was needed.

I think downtown serves a  purpose for many reasons.  I think we like having tall skyscrapers in our city because it's a sign of status, I mean if that crazy structure goes up in Louisville that will change people's perception of Louisville somewhat.  Downtowns are also generally in the middle of the city so it's the perfect place for an event because it's equal distance from different sides of town.  The outter belt of cities are starting to have a lot of development due to it's convenience for the high populations in the suburbs. Atlanta has like 3 downtowns all together.

I actually miss White Tower, the Diner, and Charley's Seafood (under Courthouse Square). 

 

Ah..you probably remember when Charlies was in the Arcade, too.

 

They had the restaurant upstairs and the " bar/sandwich shop" downstairs.  I used to like going to the bar and have a beer or iced tea and a BLT and sit down in their 'sidewalk cafe" under the arcade dome, watching the foot traffic.

 

Wilkies was still open then and they had such an excellent newspaper and unsual magazine section (not just their porn section, but lots of unsual specialty mags, including foreign things), so I'd pick up the Villiage Voice or I-D (the UK fashion mag) or something similar and head to Charlies and camp out a bit reading and having a beer and burger.  Back then there was a Lerners, Arcade Seafood, and McCrorys at the dome, plus the food court in the "pit", plus a jewlrey store and a luggage shop and FedEx place in the arcade proper...so the place wasn't totally empty...and it was sort of a cross-block/mid-block pedestrian route.

 

This was around 1990 and 89 or so.  Too bad the place missed the coffeehouse trend, as the Charilies bar location would have been great for a sidewalk cafe/coffeehouse thing. 

 

@@@@

 

Interesting that for me, rereading what I wrote. it was sort of a novelty thing...getting an experience one can't really get in a suburban environment.

 

 

 

I remember that, particularly Wilkies.  Do you also remember when Dayton had a downtown grocery store under the parking garage of One Dayton Center (currently Kinko's) called Schear's (sp?)?.  And oy, Stumps, Golden Circle, oy oy oy...

 

 

I remember that, particularly Wilkies.  Do you also remember when Dayton had a downtown grocery store under the parking garage of One Dayton Center (currently Kinko's) called Schear's (sp?)?.  And oy, Stumps, Golden Circle, oy oy oy...

When you say golden circle, do you mean gold circle.  In Cleveland, we had Gold Circle stores which I almost forgot about.  Basically first generation Targets or Kohls.

Someone said downtown Cincinnati is more appealing than Columbus or Dayton, thats related to what I was saying about Cincinnati being harder to find a parking space.  Cincinnati's downtown feels more like a downtown.  Columbus is a newer city, everything is more open and spacious.  Look at newer cities and you'll realize their downtowns are a lot more sprawled out because they were developed at a time when cars were already becoming popular so that space was needed.

Columbus is not so much newer that it was developed for the automobile.  But the automobile has taken a greater toll on downtown Columbus than Cincinnati, and I think that's why it seems more "open and spacious."  It's not that it was built that way; it's that so much was torn down.  Cleveland and Cicninnati, although they both have significant areas of parking lots around downtown, luckily have avoided Columbus' fate of having parking lots tear out much of the core area, so they've retained much more of that "downtown" feeling.  Dayton is similar to Columbus in this regard, though it's of course a smaller city to begin with.

Brewmaster,

 

You are correct.  The only added expense that I will have upon relocating to the inner-city is private school.  Also, I absolutely love going to the Franklin County Conservatory.  Now I can get there in about five minutes as opposed to twenty. 

Yeah, I know, I ment as a joke, messagboards rarely communicate sarcasm well

 

 

You got me all riled up for nuthin'?! Use them there emoticons pardner, like  :wink: or  :wave:  or  :drunk:

I have been in downtown Cincinnati for many years now.  The thing that originally drew me down was the demographics.  I was starting a new business and looking at the walkby, driveby, and residential in such a close proximity, Downtown was a no brainer.  I moved downtown with the business, the business went away, I stayed.

 

I grew up in the suburbs, and I have no desire to move back.  If we could conquer the safety issue, downtown would be such an easy sale.  I see some people talking of the parking issue in CBD and this was an issue that we fought a decade ago.  It isn't that there isn't parking downtown, we just do a poor job on telling people where it is.  OTR is the same way, so much parking, so little signage.

I don't think it's a parking issue.  We need to think outside the forum whereas the general population does not think like we do.  Just because there is some retail, dining and entertainment downtown doesn't mean people are going to go there for it.  Generally speaking, people feed off of proximity.  They are not making the decision to not go downtown because it's downtown and they can't find a place to park.  They make that decision because they do not live within 15 minutes of downtown.  Also alot of people work downtown.  They are not going to drive back to the suburb and then back to where they just were.  Therefore, it turns into primarily a weekend night spot versus a 24/7 hotspot.  Commercial activity needs a 24/7 atmosphere to survive.  As I stated before, we need to convince people to move there now and be the pioneers of downtown living.  The reason I say pioneers because living in Ohio's downtown areas is not living in the 21st century retail environment.  There are no small Target, Kohls stores.  There are very few movie rental places or chain type restaurants.  There are very few playgrounds or schools nearby. 

I see some people talking of the parking issue in CBD and this was an issue that we fought a decade ago.  It isn't that there isn't parking downtown, we just do a poor job on telling people where it is.  OTR is the same way, so much parking, so little signage.

 

I agree with you.  I think there is plenty of parking, but people do not realize this.  One thing that Cincinnati fails to do is to advertise the $1 parking in the evenings and on weekends. 

gotribe,

 

You are correct that convenience is the driving force behind the commercial success of downtown. And you are right that we need to think a bit out of the box. We are convenient because as you said, many people work downtown everyday. However we must catch them while they are here, before they return to the burbs. Most restraunts and shopping areas are within walking distance of most downtown employees for 8 hours of every day. We need a happy hour for shopping downtown. 5:00 hits, sale time!

And they can walk to the store.

 

^You are exactly right.  Have the "sundown sale".  I have said that hundreds of times about downtown retailers.  Have a sale once or twice a week from 5-7 PM to lure the working crowd. That would be a real shot in the arm for retailers.  Now thats something you don't have in the suburbs. 

 

exaclty!

GoTribe:

They are not going to drive back to the suburb and then back to where they just were.

 

I definitely see that - I work in Blue Ash, and I never go back up north for dinner, even though there are some nice places to eat in Montgomery and Blue Ash and Kenwood and all...I've only ever eaten there on the weekends when I haven't already been up there all damn day...

This is why it is so important to catch people like yourself while you are still in the area.  The downtown business plan should reflect the expectations that people will not return.  However after hours should be geared towards the ever expanding residential market.  Many of the businesses do a poor job reaching out to the residents.

As an inner-ring suburbanite, I would also like to see more affordable housing downtown.  Price range of 150k to 250k.  I know in Cleveland, many of the new construction condominiums and renovations go for more than that.  I believe the other Ohio downtowns can vouch for that also.  The problem I see here is that your dealing with alot of single people that are at work all hours of the day or travelling constantly.  You also see alot of atheletes and business owners who are hardly ever ther because they don't call Cleveland etc home.  We need mass housing full of nine to fivers that have the time to cater to downtown retailers, restraunteers and other businesses.  It's amazing when I hear that downtown Cleveland has around 10,000 residents.  I always wonder, where are they all. 

^ 2,000 of them are in Cuyaoga County Jail. It's the most high-density residential area downtown!

^Maybe I should rethink my objections to Cincinnati putting its jail in Broadway Commons...brings in the residents!

Do you also remember when Dayton had a downtown grocery store under the parking garage of One Dayton Center (currently Kinko's) called Schear's (sp?)?

 

Yeah, I sort of remember that, and there still is a grocery near there, next to the arcade, but its small.

 

@@@@@@@

 

Anything that I can't do in the suburbs. 

 

..thats why very specialized niche retail/entertainment might work in downtowns.

 

I am trying to imagine what a downtown would be like if even things like the symphony or music clubs or government offices have left downtown for the suburbs.

As an inner-ring suburbanite, I would also like to see more affordable housing downtown.  Price range of 150k to 250k.

 

In Columbus there are condos around 200k, but anything lower is either very hard to find or nonexistent. Probably the latter.

 

 

We have plenty between 150-200 in Cincinnati.

Whoops, good call GoTribe.  Gold Circle.

^For some reason I thought those were only local to Cleveland Metro.  I always said too bad gold circle didn't take off like Target and Kohls did.  that would have been a major employer for the region. 

Gold Circle was owned by Federated Department Stores.  They had some financial problems in the mid-80s, so they sold all Gold Circle stores.  I really liked them.

There used to be alot of those discount dept stores- Gold Circle, Hills, Best, Zaire's, Big Wheel.  Now it's just Target or Walmart or Kmart.  But when was competition ever a necessary component of the free market, anyway?

God, Best...Hills...oy...

Can't forget Ames (the Ames of the late 80's/90's, not in the last 10 years.

I think the emphasis on "drawing" suburbanites and tourists downtown is overrated.  There is no way that transitional and occasional users of a space are going to be able to sustain the kind of activity necessary for a lively downtown.  If cities want to rebuild their downtowns, or neighborhoods, for that matter, they need to focus on the stakeholders--the residents and workers in those communities.

 

I will use the general term "neighborhood" because a downtown is really nothing more than a neighborhood with a high concentration of employment that traditionally resides at a transportation hub.  To improve neighborhoods, more people (meaning residents and workers) need to be brought in--not just for a meal or a concert or a game, but on a permanent (tax-paying) basis, so as to establish some kind of stake in the neighborhood.  To do this, urban neighborhoods must out-compete the suburbs.  Since new investment in suburbs is largely a result of federal and state policies that subsidize them, cities cannot meet the suburbs on their own turf.  The cities must take advantage of their natural inherent benefits, which is why they were established in the first place.

 

The advantages that neighborhoods need to use to their advantage are: 

1) location--a node on a convenient transportation network. 

2) density of uses--related businesses find it easier to work together when in close proximity, for example, an architecture firm and an engineering firm

3) variance of uses--keeps things interesting and populated at all hours of the day

4) convenience--what I like about living in an urban neighborhood is that I can get anything I need within a 10 minute walk.  Driving 20 minutes to Wal Mart doesn't provide an advantage to living in the city over the suburbs.

 

I grew up in a suburb, and decided to move into a city at the first opportunity.  After living in DC for about a year and a half, I lived in a Virginia suburb for 3 years before deciding to move back into town.  My reasons were primarily convenience, a diversity of activity, and proximity to other younger people, although being able to enjoy those things without owning a car certainly helps.  There isn't a silver bullet to improving neighborhoods or downtowns, and Cleveland of all places should have learned this 10 years ago.  The fact that the idiots at City Hall are trotting out Convention Centers, Aquariums, and Casinos as the new Saviors of the City tells me they just aren't paying attention.